Guild Wars 2

If there will be any poll, plz sign Nugos under “dislike” option. Worst change I’ve (and my guildmates) ever seen in GW2 updates.

Mif.3471:

style.6173:

This is clearly broken.

Arrow carts are fine. It’s your zerg tactics that are broken.

Mif is correct about this.

Arenanet should dismiss this vocal minority as the whiners they are.

Arrowcarts need Nerf. How about a bit of recognition from a dev on this subject.

I say we all place sup AC’s around the windmill by Victor’s.
Lock down that GvG nonsense.
:)

I like that arrowcarts do more damage to people. Previously, it felt like they were shooting up feathers that gradually tickled you as they fell.

However, I think it does make sense to have AC’s do less damage to siege, while ballistas should keep doing large damage to siege. Golems could even be immune to AC’s, but not ballistas. Thus it becomes like a rock-paper-scissors where everything has a usage.

Also, increased AC range with damage may be too much. I think we are moving in the right direction and will balance out in a few patches. Coverage isn’t completely king anymore!!

This post has more posts than it has views… Good job mods!

Yes, good job moderators, I salute you!

“lortnoc egamad”

BlackBeard.2873:

I like that arrowcarts do more damage to people. Previously, it felt like they were shooting up feathers that gradually tickled you as they fell.

However, I think it does make sense to have AC’s do less damage to siege, while ballistas should keep doing large damage to siege. Golems could even be immune to AC’s, but not ballistas. Thus it becomes like a rock-paper-scissors where everything has a usage.

Also, increased AC range with damage may be too much. I think we are moving in the right direction and will balance out in a few patches. Coverage isn’t completely king anymore!!

Yes this defeinately gave low coverage servers coverage.

graverr.6473:

Serophous.9085:

graverr.6473:

DeWolfe.2174:

Here’s an example of how weak an AC was. I clearly remember standing in QL’s LR back in December. An invader was trying to pass along the north side in the shallow water. I was raining arrows on him and barely slowed him down. A teammate came in and killed him.

The corpse persisted to stay there thus, I kept watch. A minute later here comes along another invader. I go full bore on him with the AC as soon as he’s within range. He successfully limped in, rezzed the corpse, and they both hobbled away.

How was an AC not pathetically week if this can occur? It needed a buff to become a realistic siege engine.

Here i an example .use 6 superior acs and 1shot 50 ppl.use 12 acs and make hole in the ground till u see the sky in china from it. Add 80% more dps .You just oneshoted this game’s future for other than not a solo player that likes to stay semiafk listening music on an OP 50 man ownagemachine.

Ps .Biggest problem is not damage even if it’s more than overkill,but that a ram can only sutvive for 1 and a half second wich is uterrly ridiculous.They should at least make rams invulnerable from acs to make them even slightly relevant.

Ok, sure.

But then anyone on a cannon should be made invulnerable to make them more relavent.

Wtb some logic in your reply .People on rams get 20-30k damage per second by acs.Same for ppl shooting at canon.

HA! LOGIC!
No my good sir, I shall not fall into that trap. I will not attempt to bring logic into a forum where i will be immediately cast as a person who doesnt pvp, a pve carebear, or as someone who ‘doesnt understand REAL wvw’.

No, logic is not warrented in a place where the vocal majority will distort, read between lines, and make false acusations against anything that goes against their own opinion, their ‘logic’.

No my good sir. My logic shall be my own, and I leave it to you to use your imagination as many here have, to dream up what horrible things i might have meant, or how ill informed i must really be, just as everyone else has done to each other in this thread.

Soooooooo… any anet responses yet? Or is this being thrown under the rug?

Chris.4527:

Soooooooo… any anet responses yet? Or is this being thrown under the rug?

I have a hard time believing they will throw it under the rug considering how many players I’ve talked to cross both EU and NA servers and guilds will probably take indefinite extended breaks/quit the game if change does not come.

hf…

Lance.5892:

Chris.4527:

Soooooooo… any anet responses yet? Or is this being thrown under the rug?

I have a hard time believing they will throw it under the rug considering how many players I’ve talked to cross both EU and NA servers and guilds will probably take indefinite extended breaks/quit the game if change does not come.

Yeah! Like the loot bug issue! Remember how everyone quit over that? Man….things were SO dead in the game.

Trashbob.2743:

hf…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEml669YJHY

Lol… They were so close at getting up.

Atleast that issue will be fixed when people get their world xp for more damage, larger area, poison etc to prevent all hope

Serophous.9085:

Scumbag Mawile.6384:

Troop.1369:

Arrowcarts damage should stay as is for players only, not siege.

This is a good point, actually.

Arrows are meant for hitting flesh. There’s really no reason they should have much effect on solid wood and metal, e.g. every piece of siege in existence.

It’d also make rams and golems viable again now that a single AC can massacre either. Nowadays the only purpose a ram has in taking an objective is if it’s deserted or defended by someone too dumb/unsupplied to build a slaughtercart.

You know what? I actually agree with this. Against seige, arrow carts can be weak. It does make sense. It will also at least make that pot of oil more important now to stop rams and gollems.

GW2, like its predecessor, is a game of rock : paper : scissors. Under ideal circumstances, it’s perfectly balanced. Obviously, it’s not perfectly balanced. However, with regards to arrow carts and their recent buffs, this is a restoration of balance.

It was the previous meta that was broken. Zergs (and their associated rams and golems) dominated everything; there was no rock : paper : scissors balance. Burning oil? What a joke. Any defender who even looked sideways at a burning oil pot was cluster-kittened by a kitten-load of AoE. Arrow carts? LUL. Players would stand in arrow cart AoE with as much concern as if it were a mild rainshower in Springtime.

Now, a zerg rolls up to a gate and tries to drop rams or rush with golems, the counter is arrow carts. The balance has been restored. No longer will zergs rule the meta single-handedly. Nor is it a new imbalance that makes arrow carts dominate a new meta.

Just amazes me how little players bother to think outside the box. OH NOES, MAH ZERGZ IZ BORKED!!! Adapt, learn new strategies, multi-task, think circularly rather than linearly. Can’t get your golems up to the gate or can’t drop your rams? Then build catas and/or trebs and take out the arrow carts in advance.

And, no, the nerf of Swirling Winds as a counter is not an excuse not to try. Coordinate your forces and speed build multiple trebs in several locations. The defenders can’t hit them all at the same time with a counter-treb. They can’t swirly, either, so some of your boulders will get through and destroy their arrow carts if you’re a skilled trebbist. What’s that you say? You don’t know how to use a treb because you’ve been zerging this whole time? Now’s a good time to start practicing.

Hills is your real objective? Then attack garrison with a feint while porting your golems up to the gate to ninja hills. Too many defenders on the map to do either, you say? Fine, pin them down on their borderland map while capturing something of their’s on a different map.

The rock : paper : scissors balance has been restored. Arrow carts beat golems and rams, golems and rams beat trebs and catas (if you can get them inside those siege weapons’ minimum ranges and slow charge ups), trebs and catas beat arrow carts. Of course, creative strategic and tactical thinking beats all.

If you make arrow carts weak against golems and rams or all siege in general, then we just go back to the meta we had prior to the patch. I realize many QQ-ing hard over this change would like to see that happen, but it won’t. The days of zergs spamming rams and auto-attack at gates for guaranteed wins and world experience just came to an end with yesterday’s patch. Get over it.

Serophous.9085:

Lance.5892:

Chris.4527:

Soooooooo… any anet responses yet? Or is this being thrown under the rug?

I have a hard time believing they will throw it under the rug considering how many players I’ve talked to cross both EU and NA servers and guilds will probably take indefinite extended breaks/quit the game if change does not come.

Yeah! Like the loot bug issue! Remember how everyone quit over that? Man….things were SO dead in the game.

Treat it like a joke if you want, but when you make a game become so static like it is, you lose the interest of your population that likes dynamic play.

This AC buff is a solid contender to the “worst decision ever in a video game design” award.
GJ Anet, at last a reason why GW2 will stay in our memories for ever. In 20 or 30 years from here we’ll still make fun of this “hey remember when those devs thought that buffing AC by 80% was a good idea – oh my”. It’s really great to be part of this, being able to say “I was there”.

Serophous.9085:

graverr.6473:

Serophous.9085:

graverr.6473:

DeWolfe.2174:

Here’s an example of how weak an AC was. I clearly remember standing in QL’s LR back in December. An invader was trying to pass along the north side in the shallow water. I was raining arrows on him and barely slowed him down. A teammate came in and killed him.

The corpse persisted to stay there thus, I kept watch. A minute later here comes along another invader. I go full bore on him with the AC as soon as he’s within range. He successfully limped in, rezzed the corpse, and they both hobbled away.

How was an AC not pathetically week if this can occur? It needed a buff to become a realistic siege engine.

Here i an example .use 6 superior acs and 1shot 50 ppl.use 12 acs and make hole in the ground till u see the sky in china from it. Add 80% more dps .You just oneshoted this game’s future for other than not a solo player that likes to stay semiafk listening music on an OP 50 man ownagemachine.

Ps .Biggest problem is not damage even if it’s more than overkill,but that a ram can only sutvive for 1 and a half second wich is uterrly ridiculous.They should at least make rams invulnerable from acs to make them even slightly relevant.

Ok, sure.

But then anyone on a cannon should be made invulnerable to make them more relavent.

Wtb some logic in your reply .People on rams get 20-30k damage per second by acs.Same for ppl shooting at canon.

HA! LOGIC!
No my good sir, I shall not fall into that trap. I will not attempt to bring logic into a forum where i will be immediately cast as a person who doesnt pvp, a pve carebear, or as someone who ‘doesnt understand REAL wvw’.

No, logic is not warrented in a place where the vocal majority will distort, read between lines, and make false acusations against anything that goes against their own opinion, their ‘logic’.

No my good sir. My logic shall be my own, and I leave it to you to use your imagination as many here have, to dream up what horrible things i might have meant, or how ill informed i must really be, just as everyone else has done to each other in this thread.

In translation = I live in my own special magical world but i still bother you guys from the real world by posting my illusory prerogative arguments about random discourses in your lovely thread.

Thanks for sharing your vision with us ,i will make sure it will be taken into consideration kind sir.Not.

You’d think with a 900 post thread this would be top priority….

Whoever in ANet thought this was a good idea has no idea whatsoever how WvW is run. And did not even give such a game changing/breaking “buff” any public acknowledgement about this before making it public.

Absolutely mind blowing.

Kraag Deadsoul.2789:

Serophous.9085:

Scumbag Mawile.6384:

Troop.1369:

Arrowcarts damage should stay as is for players only, not siege.

This is a good point, actually.

Arrows are meant for hitting flesh. There’s really no reason they should have much effect on solid wood and metal, e.g. every piece of siege in existence.

It’d also make rams and golems viable again now that a single AC can massacre either. Nowadays the only purpose a ram has in taking an objective is if it’s deserted or defended by someone too dumb/unsupplied to build a slaughtercart.

You know what? I actually agree with this. Against seige, arrow carts can be weak. It does make sense. It will also at least make that pot of oil more important now to stop rams and gollems.

GW2, like its predecessor, is a game of rock : paper : scissors. Under ideal circumstances, it’s perfectly balanced. Obviously, it’s not perfectly balanced. However, with regards to arrow carts and their recent buffs, this is a restoration of balance.

It was the previous meta that was broken. Zergs (and their associated rams and golems) dominated everything; there was no rock : paper : scissors balance. Burning oil? What a joke. Any defender who even looked sideways at a burning oil pot was cluster-kittened by a kitten-load of AoE. Arrow carts? LUL. Players would stand in arrow cart AoE with as much concern as if it were a mild rainshower in Springtime.

Now, a zerg rolls up to a gate and tries to drop rams or rush with golems, the counter is arrow carts. The balance has been restored. No longer will zergs rule the meta single-handedly. Nor is it a new imbalance that makes arrow carts dominate a new meta.

Just amazes me how little players bother to think outside the box. OH NOES, MAH ZERGZ IZ BORKED!!! Adapt, learn new strategies, multi-task, think circularly rather than linearly. Can’t get your golems up to the gate or can’t drop your rams? Then build catas and/or trebs and take out the arrow carts in advance.

And, no, the nerf of Swirling Winds as a counter is not an excuse not to try. Coordinate your forces and speed build multiple trebs in several locations. The defenders can’t hit them all at the same time with a counter-treb. They can’t swirly, either, so some of your boulders will get through and destroy their arrow carts if you’re a skilled trebbist. What’s that you say? You don’t know how to use a treb because you’ve been zerging this whole time? Now’s a good time to start practicing.

Hills is your real objective? Then attack garrison with a feint while porting your golems up to the gate to ninja hills. Too many defenders on the map to do either, you say? Fine, pin them down on their borderland map while capturing something of their’s on a different map.

The rock : paper : scissors balance has been restored. Arrow carts beat golems and rams, golems and rams beat trebs and catas (if you can get them inside those siege weapons’ minimum ranges and slow charge ups), trebs and catas beat arrow carts. Of course, creative strategic and tactical thinking beats all.

If you make arrow carts weak against golems and rams or all siege in general, then we just go back to the meta we had prior to the patch. I realize many QQ-ing hard over this change would like to see that happen, but it won’t. The days of zergs spamming rams and auto-attack at gates for guaranteed wins and world experience just came to an end with yesterday’s patch. Get over it.

I’ll concede that everyone was bad at the metagame before, and they still are, but that doesn’t mean that this is balanced. It’s true, the map does make 1,800 supply per tick, which is equal to 18 trebs, but that’s also 60 arrow carts.

People are still getting tons of world xp and loot, they’re just on arrow carts now, because that is an incredibly low path of resistance to getting stuff. LOTS OF STUFF. You could never get this amount of loot prior to this patch. Given that you MUST use an incredibly large zerg to take the vast majority of objectives, and that the zerg must make many, many attempts to get it, the bags fly like candy corn for defenders now.

Trashbob.2743:

hf…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEml669YJHY

NIIIICE now THAT is proper balance. Just make sure that they cannot heal in Mist-form in case one elementist in the zerg could reach the top, that would be unbalanced.

Kraag Deadsoul.2789:

Serophous.9085:

Scumbag Mawile.6384:

Troop.1369:

Arrowcarts damage should stay as is for players only, not siege.

This is a good point, actually.

Arrows are meant for hitting flesh. There’s really no reason they should have much effect on solid wood and metal, e.g. every piece of siege in existence.

It’d also make rams and golems viable again now that a single AC can massacre either. Nowadays the only purpose a ram has in taking an objective is if it’s deserted or defended by someone too dumb/unsupplied to build a slaughtercart.

You know what? I actually agree with this. Against seige, arrow carts can be weak. It does make sense. It will also at least make that pot of oil more important now to stop rams and gollems.

GW2, like its predecessor, is a game of rock : paper : scissors. Under ideal circumstances, it’s perfectly balanced. Obviously, it’s not perfectly balanced. However, with regards to arrow carts and their recent buffs, this is a restoration of balance.

It was the previous meta that was broken. Zergs (and their associated rams and golems) dominated everything; there was no rock : paper : scissors balance. Burning oil? What a joke. Any defender who even looked sideways at a burning oil pot was cluster-kittened by a kitten-load of AoE. Arrow carts? LUL. Players would stand in arrow cart AoE with as much concern as if it were a mild rainshower in Springtime.

Now, a zerg rolls up to a gate and tries to drop rams or rush with golems, the counter is arrow carts. The balance has been restored. No longer will zergs rule the meta single-handedly. Nor is it a new imbalance that makes arrow carts dominate a new meta.

Just amazes me how little players bother to think outside the box. OH NOES, MAH ZERGZ IZ BORKED!!! Adapt, learn new strategies, multi-task, think circularly rather than linearly. Can’t get your golems up to the gate or can’t drop your rams? Then build catas and/or trebs and take out the arrow carts in advance.

And, no, the nerf of Swirling Winds as a counter is not an excuse not to try. Coordinate your forces and speed build multiple trebs in several locations. The defenders can’t hit them all at the same time with a counter-treb. They can’t swirly, either, so some of your boulders will get through and destroy their arrow carts if you’re a skilled trebbist. What’s that you say? You don’t know how to use a treb because you’ve been zerging this whole time? Now’s a good time to start practicing.

Hills is your real objective? Then attack garrison with a feint while porting your golems up to the gate to ninja hills. Too many defenders on the map to do either, you say? Fine, pin them down on their borderland map while capturing something of their’s on a different map.

The rock : paper : scissors balance has been restored. Arrow carts beat golems and rams, golems and rams beat trebs and catas (if you can get them inside those siege weapons’ minimum ranges and slow charge ups), trebs and catas beat arrow carts. Of course, creative strategic and tactical thinking beats all.

If you make arrow carts weak against golems and rams or all siege in general, then we just go back to the meta we had prior to the patch. I realize many QQ-ing hard over this change would like to see that happen, but it won’t. The days of zergs spamming rams and auto-attack at gates for guaranteed wins and world experience just came to an end with yesterday’s patch. Get over it.

You my friend, are the most intelligent person I’ve seen in this thread. People can’t just mindlessly zerg now. “O w8 I have 2 bunker in n actully siege a keep noaw?”. Last time I checked 10,000 range is much greater than a 2,500 range.

Trashbob.2743:

hf…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEml669YJHY

Perfect example of the change working as intended. Dumb zerg is dumb. Not completely brain dead as they at least had enough intelligence to set up catas to take down the wall out of reach of the arrow carts rather than try to build rams at the gate.

However, it occurs to me they probably tried that approach first, were met with a kitten-storm of arrow cart fire, and were forced back from the gate. This means that zerg had to have known those arrow carts were inside. Where are the trebs to take out the arrow carts? A single treb could have turned that siege into a victory for that zerg.

This battle occurred at Lake Tower. A barely upgraded Lake tower I might add. Furthermore, there’s zero supply in the depot. So the defenders were running on empty. They likely had insufficient supply to build a counter-treb had the zerg built a treb of their own. Even if the defenders had managed to build a treb, the zerg had control of the surrounding area. They could have easily gotten fresh supply from the Water or Southern supply camps and built multiple trebs.

This was a poorly executed siege on the part of the zerg and the defenders punished them for it; and rightly so. The one and only reason that zerg lost was through stupidity. Period. The arrow carts are working as intended.

Kraag Deadsoul.2789:

Trashbob.2743:

hf…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEml669YJHY

Perfect example of the change working as intended. Dumb zerg is dumb. Not completely brain dead as they at least had enough intelligence to set up catas to take down the wall out of reach of the arrow carts rather than try to build rams at the gate.

However, it occurs to me they probably tried that approach first, were met with a kitten-storm of arrow cart fire, and were forced back from the gate. This means that zerg had to have known those arrow carts were inside. Where are the trebs to take out the arrow carts? A single treb could have turned that siege into a victory for that zerg.

This battle occurred at Lake Tower. A barely upgraded Lake tower I might add. Furthermore, there’s zero supply in the depot. So the defenders were running on empty. They likely had insufficient supply to build a counter-treb had the zerg built a treb of their own. Even if the defenders had managed to build a treb, the zerg had control of the surrounding area. They could have easily gotten fresh supply from the Water or Southern supply camps and built multiple trebs.

This was a poorly executed siege on the part of the zerg and the defenders punished them for it; and rightly so. The one and only reason that zerg lost was through stupidity. Period. The arrow carts are working as intended.

Why are so many saying “if the enemies build an AC just build a treb and destroy it, duuuuh”… That simply should not be needed!

From what i can read we really have two sides, the “we love siege and the AC buff is the best thing since siegerazer”, and the others who" want to fight each other". Im on the fighting side, siege for me is more like pve.

This AC buff has just ruined the wvw aspect of the game for me. All it seems to have done is to encourage people to sit Inside keeps and towers and wait for an enemy to attack. So what will happen? Well, people will stop attacking, knowing they have little or no chance of getting to the lords room (which will probably also be full of siege).

So the people who want to fight will just stop playing wvw, leaving the people who want to siege with nothing to do except wait on an AC for nobody to come. Yep, Anet this is probably one of the best ways to have destroyed wvw. Niether side of the argument can really be happy with this.

You will be left with stagnant maps, no fights, nothing to do. When you promised a major pvp environment we all thought you meant it. Infact what you have created with this last update is a joke, one that the gaming community will remember for a long time.

We have hoped for several months that Anet would finally start “improving” the wvw content. Instead we have this. My full congratulations to all the devs involved in this, maybe you should actually play wvw a little.

graverr.6473:

Serophous.9085:

graverr.6473:

Serophous.9085:

graverr.6473:

DeWolfe.2174:

Here’s an example of how weak an AC was. I clearly remember standing in QL’s LR back in December. An invader was trying to pass along the north side in the shallow water. I was raining arrows on him and barely slowed him down. A teammate came in and killed him.

The corpse persisted to stay there thus, I kept watch. A minute later here comes along another invader. I go full bore on him with the AC as soon as he’s within range. He successfully limped in, rezzed the corpse, and they both hobbled away.

How was an AC not pathetically week if this can occur? It needed a buff to become a realistic siege engine.

Here i an example .use 6 superior acs and 1shot 50 ppl.use 12 acs and make hole in the ground till u see the sky in china from it. Add 80% more dps .You just oneshoted this game’s future for other than not a solo player that likes to stay semiafk listening music on an OP 50 man ownagemachine.

Ps .Biggest problem is not damage even if it’s more than overkill,but that a ram can only sutvive for 1 and a half second wich is uterrly ridiculous.They should at least make rams invulnerable from acs to make them even slightly relevant.

Ok, sure.

But then anyone on a cannon should be made invulnerable to make them more relavent.

Wtb some logic in your reply .People on rams get 20-30k damage per second by acs.Same for ppl shooting at canon.

HA! LOGIC!
No my good sir, I shall not fall into that trap. I will not attempt to bring logic into a forum where i will be immediately cast as a person who doesnt pvp, a pve carebear, or as someone who ‘doesnt understand REAL wvw’.

No, logic is not warrented in a place where the vocal majority will distort, read between lines, and make false acusations against anything that goes against their own opinion, their ‘logic’.

No my good sir. My logic shall be my own, and I leave it to you to use your imagination as many here have, to dream up what horrible things i might have meant, or how ill informed i must really be, just as everyone else has done to each other in this thread.

In translation = I live in my own special magical world but i still bother you guys from the real world by posting my illusory prerogative arguments about random discourses in your lovely thread.

Thanks for sharing your vision with us ,i will make sure it will be taken into consideration kind sir.Not.

Mmmmm….predictability. so delicious….

Serophous.9085:

graverr.6473:

Serophous.9085:

graverr.6473:

Serophous.9085:

graverr.6473:

DeWolfe.2174:

Here’s an example of how weak an AC was. I clearly remember standing in QL’s LR back in December. An invader was trying to pass along the north side in the shallow water. I was raining arrows on him and barely slowed him down. A teammate came in and killed him.

The corpse persisted to stay there thus, I kept watch. A minute later here comes along another invader. I go full bore on him with the AC as soon as he’s within range. He successfully limped in, rezzed the corpse, and they both hobbled away.

How was an AC not pathetically week if this can occur? It needed a buff to become a realistic siege engine.

Here i an example .use 6 superior acs and 1shot 50 ppl.use 12 acs and make hole in the ground till u see the sky in china from it. Add 80% more dps .You just oneshoted this game’s future for other than not a solo player that likes to stay semiafk listening music on an OP 50 man ownagemachine.

Ps .Biggest problem is not damage even if it’s more than overkill,but that a ram can only sutvive for 1 and a half second wich is uterrly ridiculous.They should at least make rams invulnerable from acs to make them even slightly relevant.

Ok, sure.

But then anyone on a cannon should be made invulnerable to make them more relavent.

Wtb some logic in your reply .People on rams get 20-30k damage per second by acs.Same for ppl shooting at canon.

HA! LOGIC!
No my good sir, I shall not fall into that trap. I will not attempt to bring logic into a forum where i will be immediately cast as a person who doesnt pvp, a pve carebear, or as someone who ‘doesnt understand REAL wvw’.

No, logic is not warrented in a place where the vocal majority will distort, read between lines, and make false acusations against anything that goes against their own opinion, their ‘logic’.

No my good sir. My logic shall be my own, and I leave it to you to use your imagination as many here have, to dream up what horrible things i might have meant, or how ill informed i must really be, just as everyone else has done to each other in this thread.

In translation = I live in my own special magical world but i still bother you guys from the real world by posting my illusory prerogative arguments about random discourses in your lovely thread.

Thanks for sharing your vision with us ,i will make sure it will be taken into consideration kind sir.Not.

Mmmmm….predictability. so delicious….

…

graverr.6473:

Serophous.9085:

graverr.6473:

Serophous.9085:

graverr.6473:

Serophous.9085:

graverr.6473:

DeWolfe.2174:

Here’s an example of how weak an AC was. I clearly remember standing in QL’s LR back in December. An invader was trying to pass along the north side in the shallow water. I was raining arrows on him and barely slowed him down. A teammate came in and killed him.

The corpse persisted to stay there thus, I kept watch. A minute later here comes along another invader. I go full bore on him with the AC as soon as he’s within range. He successfully limped in, rezzed the corpse, and they both hobbled away.

How was an AC not pathetically week if this can occur? It needed a buff to become a realistic siege engine.

Here i an example .use 6 superior acs and 1shot 50 ppl.use 12 acs and make hole in the ground till u see the sky in china from it. Add 80% more dps .You just oneshoted this game’s future for other than not a solo player that likes to stay semiafk listening music on an OP 50 man ownagemachine.

Ps .Biggest problem is not damage even if it’s more than overkill,but that a ram can only sutvive for 1 and a half second wich is uterrly ridiculous.They should at least make rams invulnerable from acs to make them even slightly relevant.

Ok, sure.

But then anyone on a cannon should be made invulnerable to make them more relavent.

Wtb some logic in your reply .People on rams get 20-30k damage per second by acs.Same for ppl shooting at canon.

HA! LOGIC!
No my good sir, I shall not fall into that trap. I will not attempt to bring logic into a forum where i will be immediately cast as a person who doesnt pvp, a pve carebear, or as someone who ‘doesnt understand REAL wvw’.

No, logic is not warrented in a place where the vocal majority will distort, read between lines, and make false acusations against anything that goes against their own opinion, their ‘logic’.

No my good sir. My logic shall be my own, and I leave it to you to use your imagination as many here have, to dream up what horrible things i might have meant, or how ill informed i must really be, just as everyone else has done to each other in this thread.

In translation = I live in my own special magical world but i still bother you guys from the real world by posting my illusory prerogative arguments about random discourses in your lovely thread.

Thanks for sharing your vision with us ,i will make sure it will be taken into consideration kind sir.Not.

Mmmmm….predictability. so delicious….

…

Come on, surely you can do better than that. Just one pic? Im disapointed in you. I atleast expected a 5 sec youtube clip to insult or denounce me. Step up your game man!

Chris.4527:

You’d think with a 900 post thread this would be top priority….

Shame 600+ of those posts are from the same 20-30 people moaning over and over again(at least half of them also belonging to the same guild) about it’s so unfair how they can’t zerg a keep in 30secs anymore.

Kraag Deadsoul.2789:

Serophous.9085:

Scumbag Mawile.6384:

Troop.1369:

Arrowcarts damage should stay as is for players only, not siege.

This is a good point, actually.

Arrows are meant for hitting flesh. There’s really no reason they should have much effect on solid wood and metal, e.g. every piece of siege in existence.

It’d also make rams and golems viable again now that a single AC can massacre either. Nowadays the only purpose a ram has in taking an objective is if it’s deserted or defended by someone too dumb/unsupplied to build a slaughtercart.

You know what? I actually agree with this. Against seige, arrow carts can be weak. It does make sense. It will also at least make that pot of oil more important now to stop rams and gollems.

GW2, like its predecessor, is a game of rock : paper : scissors. Under ideal circumstances, it’s perfectly balanced. Obviously, it’s not perfectly balanced. However, with regards to arrow carts and their recent buffs, this is a restoration of balance.

It was the previous meta that was broken. Zergs (and their associated rams and golems) dominated everything; there was no rock : paper : scissors balance. Burning oil? What a joke. Any defender who even looked sideways at a burning oil pot was cluster-kittened by a kitten-load of AoE. Arrow carts? LUL. Players would stand in arrow cart AoE with as much concern as if it were a mild rainshower in Springtime.

Now, a zerg rolls up to a gate and tries to drop rams or rush with golems, the counter is arrow carts. The balance has been restored. No longer will zergs rule the meta single-handedly. Nor is it a new imbalance that makes arrow carts dominate a new meta.

Just amazes me how little players bother to think outside the box. OH NOES, MAH ZERGZ IZ BORKED!!! Adapt, learn new strategies, multi-task, think circularly rather than linearly. Can’t get your golems up to the gate or can’t drop your rams? Then build catas and/or trebs and take out the arrow carts in advance.

And, no, the nerf of Swirling Winds as a counter is not an excuse not to try. Coordinate your forces and speed build multiple trebs in several locations. The defenders can’t hit them all at the same time with a counter-treb. They can’t swirly, either, so some of your boulders will get through and destroy their arrow carts if you’re a skilled trebbist. What’s that you say? You don’t know how to use a treb because you’ve been zerging this whole time? Now’s a good time to start practicing.

Hills is your real objective? Then attack garrison with a feint while porting your golems up to the gate to ninja hills. Too many defenders on the map to do either, you say? Fine, pin them down on their borderland map while capturing something of their’s on a different map.

The rock : paper : scissors balance has been restored. Arrow carts beat golems and rams, golems and rams beat trebs and catas (if you can get them inside those siege weapons’ minimum ranges and slow charge ups), trebs and catas beat arrow carts. Of course, creative strategic and tactical thinking beats all.

If you make arrow carts weak against golems and rams or all siege in general, then we just go back to the meta we had prior to the patch. I realize many QQ-ing hard over this change would like to see that happen, but it won’t. The days of zergs spamming rams and auto-attack at gates for guaranteed wins and world experience just came to an end with yesterday’s patch. Get over it.

The problem is that you can easily hold towers with two people now: 2 Superior ACs are enough to get rid of a zerg and their siege. Ramming is not viable anymore and catapulting takes forever. While I agree a change to the mindless bashing is needed, this is definitely not the way to go.

Trashbob.2743:

hf…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEml669YJHY

^This pretty much sums it up.

I just really would love to know who exactly at Anet thought this change was a good idea.

To that person I would say very mean things about his or her intelligence.

Was not on yesterday after the patch but this evening i saw these new AC in use.

The range on them is insane. You can not get close to a door without AC hitting you a mile out. Cripple = gg.

The normal AC damage isn’t to bad but Supp AC…why use any other siege. This is going to encourage range siege warfare which was boring to begin with. Noone is going to come out to attack your Catas or trebs when they have tons of AC aimed at the broken wall. Cant even stealth in to portal if someone has 75 points in the line.

Imo this needs a nerf or rework.

so ~24 hours into this thread almost 1000 posts and yet not a work from anet devon please get here and say something or your gonna have a zerg outside the anet hq

Zoel.9154:

I’ll concede that everyone was bad at the metagame before, and they still are, but that doesn’t mean that this is balanced. It’s true, the map does make 1,800 supply per tick, which is equal to 18 trebs, but that’s also 60 arrow carts.

People are still getting tons of world xp and loot, they’re just on arrow carts now, because that is an incredibly low path of resistance to getting stuff. LOTS OF STUFF. You could never get this amount of loot prior to this patch. Given that you MUST use an incredibly large zerg to take the vast majority of objectives, and that the zerg must make many, many attempts to get it, the bags fly like candy corn for defenders now.

Only if the attackers are playing dumb. I tested it last night to see how this change would affect an assault. Conclusion? It will have zero effect on a group that knows how to use siege weapons properly. Even with the range boost of Arrow Cart Mastery, catapults still outrange arrow carts. Even if they didn’t, trebs will always be the king of the range hill.

If anyone is killed by an arrow cart, it’s their own fault. There’s absolutely zero excuse. Simply stay out of range, build catas or trebs, take down the arrow carts, and proceed with the siege as usual. There is only one bottleneck in all of WvWvW where it could be reasonably argued that arrow carts will be the sole deciding factor. That’s the narrow approach to the lord’s room in Hills. Even then, a combination of counter-ballista fire, dodging, stealth/invisibility, invulnerability, and portaling can break that deadlock.

As to the supply issue, that goes back to what I was getting at earlier; the need to think non-linearly. Supply on the current map dried up? Port back to your home borderland’s garrison or hills or bay and use some of the supply from there. Especially if the supply depots have reached max capacity and the supply being delivered by the yaks is just going to waste. Then port back to the map on which the siege is taking place and continue on. And, no, not all as a single zerg. The main zerg keeps the pressure on while sending small supply running parties to do this task. Or, looked at from the opposite direction, I’ve been involved in a 10 hour defense of bay in which we had run out of supply in the internal depot. We were able to last that long outmanned 5 to 1 against wave after wave of assaults and battery after battery of trebs and catas pointed at us because of running supply from other sources outside the map.

Look at the entire theatre of WvWvW and tally the whole of all assets available to you from all sources; not just what’s in the immediate vicinity or even the current map.

Lelith.2916:

Johje Holan.4607:

Raege.1069:

PetricaKerempuh.7958:

lets put it this way… treb/cata… no1 can argue that zerg at door was just unstoppable. now it isnt anymore and its a good thing.

Let me put it this way. Vizunah caps everything at night -> Vizunah has upgraded towers with arrowcarts AND a blob. You can’t zerg the gate. Your countersiege will be derstoyerd by the blob. What are you going to do now?

Sounds like you all have a serious problem in EU T1 that has nothing to do with arrowcarts.

Everyone that isn’t on Vizunah does actually. Raege has a very good point and specifically when dealing with Viz. They have much better coverage than any T1 current server… they cap everyone’s towers / keeps / SM over night. When you wake up in the morning you are faced with YOUR OWN areas being T3 and sieged up with a billion (ok slight exaggeration) arrowcarts. Now given the increased effectiveness of them against pretty much anything you can throw at a tower… what are you going to do..

I have to quote this because all siege will de-spawn if untouched for too long. They have timers on them now. Your enemies, which I suspect are not in full force while you are awake as well have to keep visiting that siege to keep it alive. The stuff just won’t be there for days on end without a bit of touchy feely.

You can build a treb and just take out that siege while they man the tower in turtle mode. It really is possible. The trebs do a pretty good job of this.

This type of situation is not unique to EU T1 btw.

DB sea crew did a fine job of nearly the same thing against Mag and YB in T3 for a couple of weeks doing much the same thing. They did a very good job of dealing with it overall and apart from the occasional forum argument took it on the chin.

The way you are representing the situation here makes it seem like you guys don’t get your stuff back. Which makes me wonder how they can take from you if they never let you get it back. Or are we just creating an elaborate picture for the future where you guys never ever own a tower again?

Forum hyperbole is all this is.

manbearpig.8095:

so ~24 hours into this thread almost 1000 posts and yet not a work from anet devon please get here and say something or your gonna have a zerg outside the anet hq

Anet has a habit of not responding to “protest” threads. When ascended came out, same deal. Small guilds thing? Same deal. Probably not going to be any different with this.

If I were to guess, the diverse opinions on this subject matter will demand answers from Anet if a dev ever posts. I suppose it’s better to stay silent, not make any biased statements, or any promises.

If a dev says “We’ll take the opinions here into consideration”, it doesn’t answer any questions.

So some people apparently think that a couple ac’s being able to kill massive numbers (players and/or siege) at long range in a couple of seconds with ease is a good thing… just… wow…

I agree zerging sucks. Something needs to be done about it. This isn’t the solution.

Sometimes I’m wondering whether or not the unguilded people supporting Arenanet in this thread is actually Arenanet themselves making troll accounts.

The patch would suggest that this would be the kind of humor they would use.

this isnt a stop to zerging you think a few arrowcarts that can slaughter a 70 man zerg is even gonna draw a breath to kill a 10man small team

Celly.5912:

The problem is that you can easily hold towers with two people now: 2 Superior ACs are enough to get rid of a zerg and their siege. Ramming is not viable anymore and catapulting takes forever. While I agree a change to the mindless bashing is needed, this is definitely not the way to go.

The problem is that you can easily hold towers with two people now: 2 Superior ACs are enough to get rid of a DUMB zerg and their siege.

If a zerg is mindlessly standing in the middle of AoE, then they should be gotten rid of; that’s the point. Otherwise, it means the zerg always wins if there’s no counter. And, no, a zerg is not a counter to another zerg. That’s a stalemate and stale meta dominated by a singular tactic.

Ramming is not viable anymore if the attackers fail to deal with the arrow carts first

Why should a zerg be rewarded with insta-win simply for throwing down a few rams without first scouting the fortification’s defenses to determine if rams are truly the right tool for the job?

catapulting takes forever if you build too few

Scout, assess, plan. If the fortification has fortified walls and the zerg only builds one catapult, then, yes, it will take forever. Match the tool to the job. If the wall is fortified, build 5, 6, 7, etc. catapults to speed up the siege.

It is most definitely the way to go. The mistake wasn’t improving arrow carts as a counter to zergs. The mistake was setting up WvWvW to have no counters to zergs to begin with. WvWvW was never intended to be an arena for monolithic blobs to become god mode. That error has now been corrected. Granted, the zergs became accustomed to easy wins, loot, and WXP raining down like mana from heaven. Now they’ll have to adapt to the change. For the long-term health of WvWvW, this change was sorely needed in spite of whatever short-term distress it may be causing.

So wait ppl have max level arrow cart line already? I find this very unlikely and all of this is a bunch of fear mongering speculation with no real data. If you did not like arrowcarts before your going to use any type of buff to them as a means to tear them down.

People have been complaining about zergs and PvD since day 1. Predictably, when ANet does something about this, people just complain harder. Comically enough, just a few days ago there was outrage about swirling winds nerf and how it would make defending harder.

Guess what guys, now you need more coordination when attacking. You can’t just ignore ACs on the wall, what a horrible turn of events this is!

lordkrall.7241:

Aneu.1748:

Arenanet really screwed up with this patch they are about to lose a huge amount of players.

You mean just like after every single patch they ever released in this game? (or GW1 for that matter)

*You mean just like after ever single patch anyone ever released for any MMO?

Kebab.4013:

Sometimes I’m wondering whether or not the unguilded people supporting Arenanet in this thread is actually Arenanet themselves making troll accounts.

The patch would suggest that this would be the kind of humor they would use.

I agree. Who cares what unguilded people say? They dont matter.

Aberrant.6749:

So some people apparently think that a couple ac’s being able to kill massive numbers (players and/or siege) at long range in a couple of seconds with ease is a good thing… just… wow…

I agree zerging sucks. Something needs to be done about it. This isn’t the solution.

Yes, I do think it’s a good thing. Because if they’re being killed, it means they aren’t smart enough to stay out of range. There’s a real simple counter to arrow carts. Move…away…from…the…red…circles.

The patch changes nothing; catapults and trebs still outrange arrow carts. This makes catapults and trebs the counters to arrow carts. I put points into arrow cart mastery to specifically test their maximum range and it comes up short of catapult maximum range. I now know how far ACs can fire at most of the towers and keeps. Which means I know where to safely build catapults out of reach of the ACs but which can still hit a wall, gate, or the ACs themselves.

The previous counter to arrow carts was simply stand in the AoE, do a little dance, dodge every so often, but otherwise carry on with ramming and DPS-ing down the gate. If you actually did manage to get killed by arrow cart fire, your zerg just rezzed you right back up.

The old arrow carts were a joke and all the pro-zergers know it. That’s why they’re QQ-ing so hard over this change because it means the karma trains and easy WXP just came to an end. Now, if anyone in a zerg is getting killed by an arrow cart, it’s because they refuse to adapt from their old tactic of standing at a gate spamming auto-attack and expecting to be rewarded for that action alone. The fault lies with them; not with the update.

It’s very difficult to resist reiterating an old meme beginning with “QQ”.

This chap hits the nail on the head:

The old arrow carts were a joke and all the pro-zergers know it. That’s why they’re QQ-ing so hard over this change because it means the karma trains and easy WXP just came to an end. Now, if anyone in a zerg is getting killed by an arrow cart, it’s because they refuse to adapt from their old tactic of standing at a gate spamming auto-attack and expecting to be rewarded for that action alone. The fault lies with them; not with the update.

Yea… try taking hills lord room using catapults/trebs to take out all the ac’s tucked inside there… gl with that…

If there weren’t places where ac’s can be placed and can’t be reasonably hit by cata’s/trebs etc. I might agree.

They are far too powerful and very easily/cheaply/quickly built.

Hey ArenaNet… When are you guys adding the Wheelbarrow upgrade on AC? I want mobile AC!!!! Need more bags!!!

To be honest what this patch has done has completely changed the ideology of attacking objectives in WvW. It has simply become either try and ninja around the map and run away as soon as spotted and then try to treb or cata it down while also trying to destroy any counter seige they build inside. Yay seige wars :/

I see a lot of people in this thread saying that you can’t just ignore the arrow carts on the wall and that you first have to destroy them before attacking. This is true, but every tower/keep/castle has uncounterable seige placements; in other words they cannot be destroyed. An example would be Briar, place some arrowcarts in and below the lord room and you are set for life.

I guess some people like playing like ninjas and then seiging up for hours on end, and I’m not going to tell them they are wrong in enjoying that playstyle. But if you think it will have any impact on the meta, ie zerging, it won’t. it’ll just take less people to defend an objective, 2-3 ACs will force them into long range seige and waste hours of their time. And with this a lot less open field fights (why fight when you can just stay in tower and easily defend), and a whole population who have played WvW will be left wanting.

I’ll tell ya right now… we just lost bay….to arrow carts. Camera glitches + superior arrow carts = all siege in bay is wiped in 10 minutes.

I’m not playing this until it’s fixed…

Chuck Norris.4527:

Hey ArenaNet… When are you guys adding the Wheelbarrow upgrade on AC? I want mobile AC!!!! Need more bags!!!

THIS ^^ is proof.Ac is so OP now that even Chuck Norris has to use it instead of his countless ways to destroy the universe.