Guild Wars 2

Sounds like a good update to me, most servers will have weeks with relatively even match-ups, weeks where they dominate, and weeks where they will struggle so they can experience all types of play styles (the exception of course being the first and last ranked servers which will always be winning/losing, just by a different margin). Also, there are some potentially very good match-ups like CD/SBI/EB that will currently never happen due to the ratings system, but with the random component it makes these matches possible.

Pixelninja.6971:

Scoreupdates from the future.

^^ No! Some mistakes you made: more than a ticker of +695 is impossible and more than 700’000 total score is not possible as well and SoR and ET in the same match is (luckily for SoR!) is not possible with the new system, it’s outside the rating-range variation.

PS: Why is this luck for SoR and not for ET: SoR would loose rating like hell with such a match-outcome, whereas ET would gain rating like hell

Actinotus.6410:

Pixelninja.6971:

Scoreupdates from the future.

Bit arrogant much.

Some are making SoR a bit of a big target…

But Pixelninja is on JQ

Zen.8497:

I haven’t seen anyone from SoR saying “Omg SoR are gods :O” and it has nothing to do with trolling. It is what it is based on server strengths and coverage. I think this change is a good opportunity to refresh some memories and maybe make some new ones as well.

You should see what your fellow Rallians are posting…

I would absolutely love a TC/SoR/BG match – I think there would be a lot of good fights all week long.

Rackhir Tanelorn.9123:

Zen.8497:

I haven’t seen anyone from SoR saying “Omg SoR are gods :O” and it has nothing to do with trolling. It is what it is based on server strengths and coverage. I think this change is a good opportunity to refresh some memories and maybe make some new ones as well.

You should see what your fellow Rallians are posting…

I would absolutely love a TC/SoR/BG match – I think there would be a lot of good fights all week long.

BG is boring and stops showing up when they lose. Why not TC/SoR/DB

I still have many friends from TC I want to duel, and I’m hoping for a temporary invite into ARENA TIER 2 dueling guild(Does it still exist?)

What I would actually enjoy, if they want to redo their data, is a few weeks of shorter matchups. Like we had at launch; except maybe 2 or 3 days per match instead of one. Give everyone a chance to fight a heap of new servers, but if you’re getting facerolled it wont last for a whole week.

Doomdesire.9365:

BG is boring and stop showing up when they lose. Why not TC/SoR/DB

I think BG would keep showing up if TC were there

DB needs a match against JQ (and the rest of us need Observer Mode to watch )

JonPeters.5630:

timidobserver.7925:

I have a couple of serious questions.
1. Did the person that came up with the math for this graduate from high school.
2. To prove it, please upload a copy of your high school diploma.

How about just a copy of their resume. I don’t see his high school experience on there. Hopefully the other stuff can count as relevant experience for your assessment.

http://www.glicko.net/cv.html

So that’s where the name glicko came from. I wish I could name things after myself :O

Officially worried this idea will destroy wvw worse then the recent arrow cart buff did. I can only imagine how the lower tier servers feel about this.

I for one do not like just outnumbering my opponent to the point they have no fight in them. Nor do i like being the one outnumbered so heavily.

I think this is going to backfire and cause more people to leave game then its going to make happy.

JonPeters.5630:

timidobserver.7925:

I have a couple of serious questions.
1. Did the person that came up with the math for this graduate from high school.
2. To prove it, please upload a copy of your high school diploma.

How about just a copy of their resume. I don’t see his high school experience on there. Hopefully the other stuff can count as relevant experience for your assessment.

http://www.glicko.net/cv.html

Can I smell smoke?

Zil.3071:

what are u doing…….. the tiers are too far apart to random match. it wont be ‘who will win’ u kitten kitten. it will be ticking 600 points total domination. total turn away both the competitive and casual wvwers.

It seems that everyone understands this except ANet. All the new system does is make sure that there are even more blowouts, and that players will lose interest by late Friday evening instead of by Saturday afternoon.

ANet needed to implement a different way to create three-faction WvW instead of by server, and they needed to shorten the match from a week to something less. What they’ve done instead is the rough equivalent of rolling their face across the keyboard.

JonPeters.5630:

I think the kittenumptions that everyone is making are:

1) The current ratings of servers are valid. They are not because we are not getting enough varied match-ups to even generate valid data. Trying to judge the quality of a server based on their current rating is much like judging the quality of people’s Reddit posts by the average # of up-votes they get.
2) How big a spread will make a game a blowout? Is 400 rating points even a significant difference? Really its just a number with very little meaning right now. Once this system starts working (based on the math of the system the idea is that a rating +/- deviation is in fact an accurate measurement of the range of what their rating might be in a perfect world so this is technically the way this whole thing was supposed to work from the get go.

I don’t want to do all of the probability math right now, but with absurdly high certainty there will only be a small amount of randomization each week as in order for a situation like Kaineng moving up to T1 to occur, every server from Blackgate to Maguuma would have to roll a lower range number than Kaineng, and some of them would literally have to roll almost -100% while Kaineng rolls almost +100%. As the blog post stated, at the end of the day we are really just going to see a bit of nice slight subtle movement so that match-ups are less stale, and eventually ratings are more accurate.

Jon

For those in their haste that missed this I quote “Subtle movement” “Perfect rolls” stop the doom saying, probably just means that TC and DB will occasionally make an appearance in T1.

Feel like this is a terrible idea.. I am tired of playing TC who has one of the highest populations in all of Guild Wars. But this just makes it worse… I guess we’ll have to see in practice how it works out.

I am not shure where you guys take the confidence that T1 is stronger that T2.
At least in EU that confidence turned out to be completely wrong in the last 2 weeks.

3 weeks ago (week 17) everyone in the EU-ladder was very confident that
Vizunah was the unbeatable beast at the top of europe. Whereas Elona was just a poor underdog that was sitting in T2 for a total of 10 weeks and had to fight hard every week to win T2.
Finally Elona made it up, and the result is a bit surprising

(And no there was no noticable transfer of people involved.)

And also in NA ladder the last comparision (exchange) between T1 and T2 is 11 weeks ago.

my feeling on some of this stuff:

I’d prefer if the matches did get reduced in duration for a while, but I still do a lot of PvE anyway so if I end up in a futile match I guess I won’t care all that much. Either way, I think it should help in the longer term.

Zen.8497:

ykyk.2740:

Otokomae.9356:

People keep saying that guilds will “spread out” once this starts, and that we’ll see more parity as a result, but that’s really not going to happen without some sort of free or severely discounted transfers. Most of the time, when whole guilds are spending thousands of gold or real-life dollars to transfer, they are moving to a server where they feel relatively certain that they will end up in Tier 1. This happened when transfers were free, as well, but guilds were more open to moving down a tier and trying to work their way back up when the transfers were free.

See, under the new system “tier 1” no longer has any meaning because the “strongest” servers are never guaranteed a matchup. It’s always more beneficial under this server to have a range of fairly competitive servers over one tier of 3 stacked servers, because the alternative is week after week of bad matchups.

You are talking about bad match-ups and refer to the winning servers but not the ones that get steamrolled. I wonder what is worse to win every time or get steamrolled over and over again? It is in the human nature to want to win so chances are people will transfer to the winning servers.

Well, there’s no system that can solve idiocy, so if the majority of players prefer free wins then you are right we could well see everyone just stack to one server and have guaranteed free wins every week against no competition (this is arguably what has been happening all the time already with transfer wars).

I like to be positive and think that those are the minority though. If the majority actually like competition and unpredictability in their matchups then this could be the solution in the long run. The current tier system locks up the tiers over time and forces players to stack servers because it’s mathematically so difficult to move up or down tiers, so a change to that seems to make sense.

ykyk.2740:

Zen.8497:

ykyk.2740:

Otokomae.9356:

People keep saying that guilds will “spread out” once this starts, and that we’ll see more parity as a result, but that’s really not going to happen without some sort of free or severely discounted transfers. Most of the time, when whole guilds are spending thousands of gold or real-life dollars to transfer, they are moving to a server where they feel relatively certain that they will end up in Tier 1. This happened when transfers were free, as well, but guilds were more open to moving down a tier and trying to work their way back up when the transfers were free.

See, under the new system “tier 1” no longer has any meaning because the “strongest” servers are never guaranteed a matchup. It’s always more beneficial under this server to have a range of fairly competitive servers over one tier of 3 stacked servers, because the alternative is week after week of bad matchups.

You are talking about bad match-ups and refer to the winning servers but not the ones that get steamrolled. I wonder what is worse to win every time or get steamrolled over and over again? It is in the human nature to want to win so chances are people will transfer to the winning servers.

Well, there’s no system that can solve idiocy, so if the majority of players prefer free wins then you are right we could well see everyone just stack to one server and have guaranteed free wins every week against no competition (this is arguably what has been happening all the time already with transfer wars).

I like to be positive and think that those are the minority though. If the majority actually like competition and unpredictability in their matchups then this could be the solution in the long run. The current tier system locks up the tiers over time and forces players to stack servers because it’s mathematically so difficult to move up or down tiers, so a change to that seems to make sense.

When the options are being stomped or the stomper, people will obviously chose being the stomper. The update will promote more stacking at already stacked servers.

The new system is great. It will force each and every server to fight harder in my opinion.

Right now, the situation is you have one server dominating each tier. And it usually stays that way unless you have population shifts/server transfers.

With the random factor, all servers will have to fight hard to keep or increase their rating points and/or to win matches (by a significant margin).

What I’m unsure about is WHEN will the random numbers be generated and will they be published sometime before a match so that we can know which opponents to expect on reset night or to even know which color we’ll be starting off as.

I think it’ll be fun either way if we’re given the info or not. There could be a very nice element of surprise to not know exactly where you’ll start off or who you’re facing.

Then again, if we get the random roll results let’s say 24 hours before the reset, we’ll have plenty of time to prepare to fight this server or that server.

this is really shocking to me that anyone from Anet things this change will help. look at the matching you have listed… these tiers are even more off kilter then the ones we have now. and by the time things “even out” servers are going to clear out due to getting blown out of the water…or having 600 PP around the clock…this is a BAD IDEA

at the end of the day gentlemen…you cant polish a kitten …ditch glicko, this isnt chess.

hyjaxxx.1584:

ditch glicko, this isnt chess.

It’s the randomisation that’s causing the potential problems you’ve just mentioned. How is glicko at fault here?

Az z.2746:

ykyk.2740:

Zen.8497:

ykyk.2740:

Otokomae.9356:

People keep saying that guilds will “spread out” once this starts, and that we’ll see more parity as a result, but that’s really not going to happen without some sort of free or severely discounted transfers. Most of the time, when whole guilds are spending thousands of gold or real-life dollars to transfer, they are moving to a server where they feel relatively certain that they will end up in Tier 1. This happened when transfers were free, as well, but guilds were more open to moving down a tier and trying to work their way back up when the transfers were free.

See, under the new system “tier 1” no longer has any meaning because the “strongest” servers are never guaranteed a matchup. It’s always more beneficial under this server to have a range of fairly competitive servers over one tier of 3 stacked servers, because the alternative is week after week of bad matchups.

You are talking about bad match-ups and refer to the winning servers but not the ones that get steamrolled. I wonder what is worse to win every time or get steamrolled over and over again? It is in the human nature to want to win so chances are people will transfer to the winning servers.

Well, there’s no system that can solve idiocy, so if the majority of players prefer free wins then you are right we could well see everyone just stack to one server and have guaranteed free wins every week against no competition (this is arguably what has been happening all the time already with transfer wars).

I like to be positive and think that those are the minority though. If the majority actually like competition and unpredictability in their matchups then this could be the solution in the long run. The current tier system locks up the tiers over time and forces players to stack servers because it’s mathematically so difficult to move up or down tiers, so a change to that seems to make sense.

When the options are being stomped or the stomper, people will obviously chose being the stomper. The update will promote more stacking at already stacked servers.

No, because stomp and be stomped are not the only options.

I think this is a great idea. Glicko is used in a lot of rating systems, including some chess rating systems, and that is a great system for accurate ability estimation and matchups. But chess ratings are based upon a very large player base, so it’s nice to see ANet doing something a little different. Thanks for mixing things up ANet.

“Is Kaineng better than Jade Quarry? Before we never knew, but soon they might get a chance to prove it.”

Laughed so hard it pulled something. I pity anyone T3 or below that gets matched with Sanctum of Rall, Blackgate, OR Jade Quarry.

JonPeters.5630:

timidobserver.7925:

I have a couple of serious questions.
1. Did the person that came up with the math for this graduate from high school.
2. To prove it, please upload a copy of your high school diploma.

How about just a copy of their resume. I don’t see his high school experience on there. Hopefully the other stuff can count as relevant experience for your assessment.

http://www.glicko.net/cv.html

Sir Richard Garriott never went to Harvard

so you complain about fighting the same people every week..they add a random factor so you don’t fight the same people every week and you still complain…why not just go out and admite that unless you get what you want you will always complain..in which case someone else will complain because they didn’t get what they wanted leading to nothing ever getting done…

lets hope this adds some much needed omg we are getting stomped time to step our game up and some o wow we are stomping them think ill take some time and go do something else for a few hours because ohhh now its not going to be about who buys or looses the most players to there servers just to be able to fight someone new after 2-4 weeks because it takes awhile to move up or down

Gavi.9538:

“Is Kaineng better than Jade Quarry? Before we never knew, but soon they might get a chance to prove it.”

Laughed so hard it pulled something. I pity anyone T3 or below that gets matched with Sanctum of Rall, Blackgate, OR Jade Quarry.

You will stop laughing when FA takes enough points from SoR, while TC doesn’t take enough from JQ, such that as a result of these two parallel matches JQ will move ahead of SoR and FA will have “successfully lost” as it enables them to move ahead of TC.

It will be no longer be match-win alone that determine success.
It will be no longer crushing your direct opponent.

It will be soon the suspense of parallel competition!

Timewarp.3819:

Khayoss.2019:

Why would you complain about this?!?! This is great! Some matchups will be roflstomps, fine…

While I agree being locked into the same match-ups gets stale, at least there is some amount of give and take. A chance. “Roflstomp” matches are not fine however. In fact, they certainly will cause people to stop WvWing for the remainder of the week, or completely altogether.

A.Net wanting to shake things up, and collect better data is a great thing. I just hope they are able to strike an acceptable balance between variety and actual competition.

I don’t know what stroke of luck you have had to not have faced Roflstomp matches yet, but these matches very much already exist in combination with our presently stagnant matchups. This won’t be a new problem introduced by match variation.

My tier is a prime example where EBay dropped to T5 10 weeks ago. The first week we lost due to some of our major guilds taking a break. Since then it’s been 9 wins in a row, and there has been absolutely zero chance involved in that for either server we have faced. In fact, last week BP and AR formed an alliance to bring some new flavor to the matchup, and while it made reset weekend more challenging we still ended up winning by 80k and 100k respectively. And what you say is true already about people giving up. AR especially has been completely demoralized, and a once promising opponent has essentially been pounded into submission with weeks upon weeks of lopsided losses without any hope for a better matchup.

Darkhaven below us wants nothing to do with the matchup either, despite our best attempts to move one of our opponents out of the tier to infuse new life to the match… and while we would have to make a concentrated effort to lose, there’s pretty much nothing we can do to win by a large enough margin to bring us out of the tier because T4 is locked into a holding pattern where SoS wins every week by a large margin, but not large enough to actually change any ratings. Best case scenario under the current system, we have another month of winning by 100-150k per week while our opponents bleed players to demoralization and maybe T4 lets us in.

I know everyone’s all abuzz about what will happen when a T1 server faces a T3 server, but you have to look outside of that bubble. There are a lot of stagnant matchups that are bleeding WvW players because there is literally no hope, ever. The ratings that are locking these tiers are not accurate representations of those servers, as the dev response said, and we need the variation to establish exactly where we all should be before we can tighten up the variation and settle things down. If it takes some people getting their kitten handed to them on the way that is no different to what happens now. The only difference is that it might be servers who aren’t use to it, and pardon me while I don’t feel sorry for their temporary discomfort.

Can’t you just make that, after a week of match-up, the winner goes in the higher tier, the looser drop in the lower tier, and the 2nd keep his 2nd place ? Is it that hard ? Does it need statistician from Harvard ?

I’m really disappointed.

Some people will complain no matter what you do for them…

Born to moan…

This is a GOOD change, the old system was stuck in a rut…with a lot of UNFAIR matchups…also it unfairly trapped servers in tiers they should not have been in for weeks on end, the old system made it far too hard to get from tier to tier…

This is far better…

I look forward to constantly changing opponents…

Now, which ever server ends up top deserves to be there because they have had to battle more than just 2 other servers to get there…

JonPeters.5630:

timidobserver.7925:

I have a couple of serious questions.
1. Did the person that came up with the math for this graduate from high school.
2. To prove it, please upload a copy of your high school diploma.

How about just a copy of their resume. I don’t see his high school experience on there. Hopefully the other stuff can count as relevant experience for your assessment.

http://www.glicko.net/cv.html

This is one of the greatest posts I have ever read, these forums or otherwise.

Edit: I should post something relevant. Thank you for the new system! I got tired of seeing the same two servers every week.

superbutt.6475:

Can’t you just make that, after a week of match-up, the winner goes in the higher tier, the looser drop in the lower tier, and the 2nd keep his 2nd place ? Is it that hard ? Does it need statistician from Harvard ?

I’m really disappointed.

Your proposal is still stuck in fighting your direct opponent week after week.
A liga system (and these randomized matches come closer to that, without having a first vs last match) has much more suspense. You have to prove your skill in much more variation.

And hey the suspense of “After the succesful home-run in Chicago, the New York bears need to score in Philadelphia within the next 5 min to stay ahead” has much more challenge and suspense that 52 repetitions of Chicago vs New York week after week. (No idea of US leagues, I am from EU, but I hope you got the point neverthenless)

JonPeters.5630:

timidobserver.7925:

I have a couple of serious questions.
1. Did the person that came up with the math for this graduate from high school.
2. To prove it, please upload a copy of your high school diploma.

How about just a copy of their resume. I don’t see his high school experience on there. Hopefully the other stuff can count as relevant experience for your assessment.

http://www.glicko.net/cv.html

ooooo…. burn. ROFL

MagiKarp.8201:

Can I smell smoke?

yup… i think that’s smoke alright. XD

MagiKarp.8201:

For those in their haste that missed this I quote “Subtle movement” “Perfect rolls” stop the doom saying, probably just means that TC and DB will occasionally make an appearance in T1.

Yabbut the example given didn’t match the words. The example was anything but a subtle movement.

morrolan.9608:

MagiKarp.8201:

For those in their haste that missed this I quote “Subtle movement” “Perfect rolls” stop the doom saying, probably just means that TC and DB will occasionally make an appearance in T1.

Yabbut the example given didn’t match the words. The example was anything but a subtle movement.

The example was from statistics 2 weeks ago, which had Kaineng was still in T2.

Mooodster.3470:

so you complain about fighting the same people every week..they add a random factor so you don’t fight the same people every week and you still complain…why not just go out and admite that unless you get what you want you will always complain..in which case someone else will complain because they didn’t get what they wanted leading to nothing ever getting done…

lets hope this adds some much needed omg we are getting stomped time to step our game up and some o wow we are stomping them think ill take some time and go do something else for a few hours because ohhh now its not going to be about who buys or looses the most players to there servers just to be able to fight someone new after 2-4 weeks because it takes awhile to move up or down

you want the remain issues ? here we go ….

1. this system still never ends with a winner
2. we will not have surprises in this system . servers with most of the players every time in 24hours of the day will be in the first places for ever ….
3. Where is the guilds leader-boards and where is the list of homered guilds from each server that helped most their server ?
4. where is the solution to the night-early morning cappers because some servers have not all the 24hours players to play in www as national servers have in europe ?
5 where is the solution ( at least in europe ) where national based server have advantage against international because of its nature language and better communication and adavantage of spying enlish based servers ?

these are some of issues that came in my mind right now …i am sure there are more but it is still morning and i didn’t finished my coffee yet

MagiKarp.8201:

morrolan.9608:

MagiKarp.8201:

For those in their haste that missed this I quote “Subtle movement” “Perfect rolls” stop the doom saying, probably just means that TC and DB will occasionally make an appearance in T1.

Yabbut the example given didn’t match the words. The example was anything but a subtle movement.

The example was from statistics 2 weeks ago, which had Kaineng was still in T2.

It lists KN as rank 8 there. Anyway, the example is probably “perfect roll” for KN to be against BG and SoR

MagiKarp.8201:

morrolan.9608:

MagiKarp.8201:

For those in their haste that missed this I quote “Subtle movement” “Perfect rolls” stop the doom saying, probably just means that TC and DB will occasionally make an appearance in T1.

Yabbut the example given didn’t match the words. The example was anything but a subtle movement.

The example was from statistics 2 weeks ago, which had Kaineng was still in T2.

I’d have a giggle fit if it happens, though. The thought of Kaineng finally making it to Tier 1 after all without WarMachine amuses me.

yriafelc.6124:

For that match-up to happen, as was explained in a separate thread, KN would need a perfect roll while several other servers would need perfect losing rolls. Effectively, it would be considered impossible by just about any sane human as the number of possible variations within the gap on which this particular singular microstate would be as close to zero in probability as it gets.

Hmm.

Well, this will cause some interesting matchups but it’s definitely not going to do better in getting close fights apart from dumb luck.

I actually don’t mind this… but personally I think it would be better to alternate systems between two 3.5-day periods on this system – to give a better chance of spending part of the week not getting teeth kicked in – and a 7-day period of strictly ranked matchups like we have now.

That way, we get a little variety without losing the good parts of what we’ve got now.

Also, could we have some new WvW maps?

Sunspots.9861:

Anet: “Is Kaineng better than Jade Quarry? Before we never knew, but soon they might get a chance to prove it.”

That pretty much sums up the new system. I think we’re done here.

Totally agree

I cant believe ppl sayin it is good.
Kaineng vs Blackgate? Omgosh, rly?
I lost all my faith in mankind …

JonPeters.5630:

timidobserver.7925:

I have a couple of serious questions.
1. Did the person that came up with the math for this graduate from high school.
2. To prove it, please upload a copy of your high school diploma.

How about just a copy of their resume. I don’t see his high school experience on there. Hopefully the other stuff can count as relevant experience for your assessment.

http://www.glicko.net/cv.html

haha trolled the troll

Anyway, this should make things interesting. It’s easy for people to come on here whining without any constructive way to fix the problem… the same people get on day in and day out and it seems all they want to do is put everything down.

If nothing else, it’ll make wvw a lot more interesting.

Kudos for addressing the problems.

Lol i do like a challenge, but why do i have this feeling that this is going to be dramatic for a lot of servers who will understand in 24 hours if it is worth it to login wvw or not and might be completely demoralized.
I think if you fight a higher server shouldn’t it also give you a change to get better rating/points not for winning of them. But by putting up a good fight trying to stay as close as possible, or maybe even a droprate increase or extra siege drops for the whole server so it would benefit you the coming weeks, and it will be a kind of benefit for do trying to keep fighting.
If not i think some servers will draw their conclusions 24 hours after match up and whine about it on the forums
But this is just what i think it contains might be that i read the changes wrong way

TheBlueLight.1762:

I think if you fight a higher server shouldn’t it also give you a change to get better rating/points not for winning of them.

Exactly THIS will happen in the new system.
You gain rating if you perform better than expected (e.g. loose less high).
You loose rating if you perform worser than expected (e.g. win less clear).

And expectation is based on rating difference.

Anet, could you please put a chest in LA accessible to everyone on their server to access every week for a reward based on weekly WvW results, just something to actually reward the 7 day effort a little bit.
Like the match up changes though, good idea.

I can see one thing possibly happening with this.

A server with high coverage across most timezones and a great active WvW community comes up against a server with lower coverage and a lower interest in WvW. The former server may get bored playing against the later server as no challenge is brought to the table. The later server may get discouraged to keep playing WvW and give up. If the so-called ‘range’ to decide matchups is too big, I expect something like the above to possibly happen.
There are several reasons why SOR/BG/JQ and other servers are currently where they are in the WvW standings.

I like the ‘variety’ this will introduce, though in my opinion, of not carefully implemented, it could go sour.

Oh hey. Gonna fix Red Servers DC yet.. Problem is so so ‘yesterday’….

As a player on FA I say…. BRING ON THE CHALLENGE

Not really fond of this.

More accurate and responsive ratings? Of course.
But randomizing some matchup….feels a lot like a simple “for the sake of not facing the same 2 servers of last month”.

I mean, i can understand ppl who’d like a change in their server trio…but when a tier is so stable for so long, is should be because the 3 servers are balanced and having a good fight. (it SHOULD. atm it’s not always like that -EU T1 last 2 months- and that’s why ratings needs to be looked at.)

Randomizing if i’m going a tier up or down just for the sake of getting 2 different opponent and then having a overwhelming victory or defeat, cause i’m in the wrong tier, feels REALLY wrong to me.

You all should start playing wvw for fun and fights instead of points, and stop QQing.