Guild Wars 2

SoPP.7034:

I’ve long maintained that as a thief player I am OP. Even tonight I stomped a number of opposing server players. Never died once and escaped with relative ease every time.

Most people that don’t want the changes to thief, exclusively use thief and have no real perspective. I have a number of geared up lvl 80’s now and I use my thief when I want to relax in WvW. I do a lot with very little effort.

In many ways I don’t want my thief to be nerfed because I have so much fun with it. What makes me ask for a nerf is because I have perspective. When I play on my other toons, it’s just insane what a thief can do.

This is more or less my own experience. I enjoy playing my thief, but I cant help thinking some of the things I do are wrong. I enjoy playing my guardian as well, not so much my ranger. Even I know all 3 classes quite well, I just cant counter a decent thief on my guardian or my ranger. I can easily take on any class on my thief. But, I dont want to focus on the one vs one problems. If they want thief to be the most effective class in 1v1, no problem. Its the mass combat abilities with the stealth plus culling which worries me. This IS a big problem the more players fight each other, and I dont think it should be this way.

Silverkung.9127:

Kasama.8941:

The worst part about stealth is that it makes bad Thief players. Meaning that if you took the stealth away, all these Cloak and Dagger spam Thieves would be downed in a few seconds, because they have never learned how to move as a Thief.

It’s funny when people say it’s a learn to play issue, when the problem is not that the Thief is impossible to kill. The problem is that it’s way too easy to play like this, and it’s never fun to play against. It could be easily balanced by nerfing stealth, and then give the Thief a bit of defensive boons in return, like aegis and stability. But Cloak and Dagger spam Thieves would still complain, because they love the fact that it is so easy to play. This is the core of the problem.

I support this post.He speak directly reason and problem.
Am boring about somebody say L2P or AoE to kill thife.
AoE can kill you but no stupid thife stay in AoE ring got it?

Kas plays non-stealth sets. He doesn’t know how useless P/D and S/D are without frequent access to Sneak Attack and Tactical Strike respectively.
He thinks they should be turned into burst sets.
(They’re a condition set and control set with no burst capability and their main skills are thier stealth skill)

Rayya.2591:

killimandros.5087:

As a thief, if they /Anet) cant fix the culling, numbers of people stealthed/abuse of stealth, id rather see it being removed. Yes. Instead add camouflage maybe, or add tricks to the tief class like hard to catch. Making them more evasive, faster and increase range of pistol. Give them some symbols maybe? I dont know, fact is, it doesnt work, like it is right now. It just doesnt work.

is thief, not ninja
thief = stealthed
detected thief = dead
works as intended

It doesnt say so in the class description, sorry. Stealth is supposed to last short. And, decected thief uses infiltrators arrow x 2 dodge x 2, shadowstep plus steal to get away from ANYone when not stealthed. Then he pops stealth again. Thbis while 6 people chasing. Then he shadowsteps back to do whatever he was doing leaving the chasing pack confused. But, this is a 1v1 or even a 1v5 thingy, which I dont wanna argue too much about. Its more stealthed thief stealth warrior, guardian. necro, ele, warrior for 15+ seconds.

Musty.3148:

Magiofdeath.2745:

Well, this is definitely a different post – hearing about the experience from the other side (the thief side). Regardless, this will end up in linksville just like the other thief post. I agree with your post though.

Hell, I’ve been saying this for months, I stopped playing my 80 thief because it’s an imbarassingly easy class to curbstomp people with. Any of you kids playing them should be imbarrassed for picking and continuing to play such an imbarrassingly OP class.

I can stealth into a zerg, DPS someone down, restealth, stomp and SB out in about 5 seconds without taking 1 damage. I did it all the time, literally.

If I get into a fight and start getting wrecked, Just TP/SB/Stealth out, reset the fight, go back in and curbstomp the poor fool(s) that used all their cooldowns to try to kill me.

Anyone that is Pro-stealth as is is really just kidding themselves. It’s way out of whack probably because of the culling. But they really need to make a short term fix until they can get culling fixed or it’s going to cost a lot of players.

Well then you curb stomped someone not good if they blew all the cooldowns to kill you. Also if you leave combat they leave combat so they regen just like you. Anybody with half decent knowledge knows that a burst thief flow chart is if you don’t get a insta kill, Heal or shadow refuge and or reset. If they stand around waiting on you to come back thats their fault.

Also why is it a problem if a thief can get kills in a zerg or you downed 1 person out of say 15 attacking a keep all thats gonna happen is the people will rez him for his daily. Its not like a thief is great at AOE outside of short bow. I am pretty sure when you are zerg killing the last classes picked are guardians. I rather have a rifle warrior blasting people on top of the keep and a thief down below distracting and causing panic. Than a thief up top shooting slow cluster bombs and a warrior at the bottom trying to kill people though the warrior can do both really well.

Killing 1 person in a zerg isn’t going to stop the zerg from taking a keep. A warrior with fall reduction can jump down knocking people away bull rush someone and hb an unsuspecting person and still make it back inside. Happens all the time.

I also play a thief and I will say this. Stealth does not need to be nerfed, culling needs to be fixed BUT in the mean time we should most likely increase the revealed debuff to make up the difference in load times till said time that culling is fixed.

We also need to have something done with mesmers disappearing when they make a clone, it’s supposed to be a blink like ability but due to culling it can take 2-3 secs before thy reappear its like a free stealth with no revealed debuff.

Also dagger 5 c&d needs to be changed, not so much because its OP but its so good oh dagger is nearly a main stay in any Thief build and over shadows other oh options.

Svarty.8019:

• If WvW is not meant to be played solo, then why are thieves allowed to?

Video of warrior fighting multiple opponents, multiple thieves and guardians, solo roaming WvW. Its a really good video.

You can tell this guy knows how to play since he makes them waste dodges. He also hits the thieves in stealth many times.

Magiofdeath.2745:

I can stealth into a zerg, DPS someone down, restealth, stomp and SB out in about 5 seconds without taking 1 damage. I did it all the time, literally.

In which tier you play? Try some enemys with a minimum of scill – you cant finish this with success.

Also this video above is from a lower tier …

If thieves are OP, then my engineer must be really OP, because I’ve never met one that I can’t kill 1on1 with relative ease. Especially since I’ve switched from a P/P condition build to a toughness/vitality Rifle build. So easy to Blunderbuss a thief to the face, or do some good AOE Jump Shot damage to merk them while they are in stealth.

What does need to be fixed, however, is the culling. A thieve’s stealth does last a small bit longer than it should due to the culling, but if you estimate their location, you can immobilize/stun while in stealth as stated above.

oZii.2864:

Musty.3148:

Magiofdeath.2745:

Well, this is definitely a different post – hearing about the experience from the other side (the thief side). Regardless, this will end up in linksville just like the other thief post. I agree with your post though.

Hell, I’ve been saying this for months, I stopped playing my 80 thief because it’s an imbarassingly easy class to curbstomp people with. Any of you kids playing them should be imbarrassed for picking and continuing to play such an imbarrassingly OP class.

I can stealth into a zerg, DPS someone down, restealth, stomp and SB out in about 5 seconds without taking 1 damage. I did it all the time, literally.

If I get into a fight and start getting wrecked, Just TP/SB/Stealth out, reset the fight, go back in and curbstomp the poor fool(s) that used all their cooldowns to try to kill me.

Anyone that is Pro-stealth as is is really just kidding themselves. It’s way out of whack probably because of the culling. But they really need to make a short term fix until they can get culling fixed or it’s going to cost a lot of players.

Well then you curb stomped someone not good if they blew all the cooldowns to kill you. Also if you leave combat they leave combat so they regen just like you. Anybody with half decent knowledge knows that a burst thief flow chart is if you don’t get a insta kill, Heal or shadow refuge and or reset. If they stand around waiting on you to come back thats their fault.

Also why is it a problem if a thief can get kills in a zerg or you downed 1 person out of say 15 attacking a keep all thats gonna happen is the people will rez him for his daily. Its not like a thief is great at AOE outside of short bow. I am pretty sure when you are zerg killing the last classes picked are guardians. I rather have a rifle warrior blasting people on top of the keep and a thief down below distracting and causing panic. Than a thief up top shooting slow cluster bombs and a warrior at the bottom trying to kill people though the warrior can do both really well.

Killing 1 person in a zerg isn’t going to stop the zerg from taking a keep. A warrior with fall reduction can jump down knocking people away bull rush someone and hb an unsuspecting person and still make it back inside. Happens all the time.

If they stand around? There isn’t a class that can get away! The mobility allows you to catch ANYONE that runs, including Eles.

And a “reset” really is only a few seconds, I’m back in as soon as Init is back. They have 40 second cooldowns. Regenerating health is a non-issue, I don’t CARE if they regen, I’m gonna get it back down in 5 seconds.

I’ll give you the point that in a zerg you are not as effective as say a bunker ele, guardian, etc. But that isn’t what they are made for and it isn’t the point. I only used the zerg example to say I wouldn’t take ANY damage, at all, not one point. In short if you’re running a thief in a zerg (imo) you’re doing it wrong.

Thieves having spammable non-projectile combo finishers is a bit ridiculous, I think giving like heartseeker a % chance to proc as a combo finisher like ranged autos would be a fair and making CnD proc on living targets is a fair adjustment, the only other real issue is the stealth culling. Getting backstabbed repeatedly is something your build can either avoid, mitigate or honestly it can just be something you’re not built to withstand since you can’t build to defend everything. most of these thieves get CC’d or hit with a solid burst they’re down due to the nature of the class. Can thieves be frustrating? Yeah, but they’re not breaking WvW and causing a major balance issue.

Musty.3148:

oZii.2864:

Musty.3148:

Magiofdeath.2745:

Well, this is definitely a different post – hearing about the experience from the other side (the thief side). Regardless, this will end up in linksville just like the other thief post. I agree with your post though.

Hell, I’ve been saying this for months, I stopped playing my 80 thief because it’s an imbarassingly easy class to curbstomp people with. Any of you kids playing them should be imbarrassed for picking and continuing to play such an imbarrassingly OP class.

I can stealth into a zerg, DPS someone down, restealth, stomp and SB out in about 5 seconds without taking 1 damage. I did it all the time, literally.

If I get into a fight and start getting wrecked, Just TP/SB/Stealth out, reset the fight, go back in and curbstomp the poor fool(s) that used all their cooldowns to try to kill me.

Anyone that is Pro-stealth as is is really just kidding themselves. It’s way out of whack probably because of the culling. But they really need to make a short term fix until they can get culling fixed or it’s going to cost a lot of players.

Well then you curb stomped someone not good if they blew all the cooldowns to kill you. Also if you leave combat they leave combat so they regen just like you. Anybody with half decent knowledge knows that a burst thief flow chart is if you don’t get a insta kill, Heal or shadow refuge and or reset. If they stand around waiting on you to come back thats their fault.

Also why is it a problem if a thief can get kills in a zerg or you downed 1 person out of say 15 attacking a keep all thats gonna happen is the people will rez him for his daily. Its not like a thief is great at AOE outside of short bow. I am pretty sure when you are zerg killing the last classes picked are guardians. I rather have a rifle warrior blasting people on top of the keep and a thief down below distracting and causing panic. Than a thief up top shooting slow cluster bombs and a warrior at the bottom trying to kill people though the warrior can do both really well.

Killing 1 person in a zerg isn’t going to stop the zerg from taking a keep. A warrior with fall reduction can jump down knocking people away bull rush someone and hb an unsuspecting person and still make it back inside. Happens all the time.

If they stand around? There isn’t a class that can get away! The mobility allows you to catch ANYONE that runs, including Eles.

And a “reset” really is only a few seconds, I’m back in as soon as Init is back. They have 40 second cooldowns. Regenerating health is a non-issue, I don’t CARE if they regen, I’m gonna get it back down in 5 seconds.

I’ll give you the point that in a zerg you are not as effective as say a bunker ele, guardian, etc. But that isn’t what they are made for and it isn’t the point. I only used the zerg example to say I wouldn’t take ANY damage, at all, not one point. In short if you’re running a thief in a zerg (imo) you’re doing it wrong.

If they decide to leave the area then your gonna have to burn a cooldown or initiative to catch them. Thats why they can in essence leave if you chase and want the kill your gonna have to burn ini to catch up to them with either bow or heartseeker or blow shadow step or inil arrow. A ranger can get good distance, warrior, mesmer, all costing you to blow ini.

What are you doing in 5secs to get the health down? Running 25 in DA, 30 in Crit executioner trait and 15 in trick the standard gc setup? Your only getting ini back with klepto or infil sig, unless your running roll for initiative and you have a chance to proc opportunist.

if your running 10,30,30,0,0 Then you have some burst and can get ini back with infusion of shadows but you still are running on a 12 ini pool as opposed to 15. So its not like you can chase all day without a way to get back in stealth to regen the ini then you cant really just move away reset and chase them back down. There are plenty of classes if not all of them that can put enough distance gap in there that yea you can catch up to them sure but your gonna have to blow half if not all of your initiative just to do so even with SoS.

Also what’s wrong with thieves being the most mobile? if you nerf their mobility then it’s D/D eles that take that title. The point of thief is that they’re mobile and can hit from stealth. ~It’s the point of the class~

Musty.3148:

If they stand around? There isn’t a class that can get away! The mobility allows you to catch ANYONE that runs, including Eles.

If you are catching a running bunker ele, they are not very good. If you kill a bunker ele outside of initial burst or already wounded, they are also likely not very good. Bunker eles run constant condition removal, healing, perm swiftness and have several fast escape mechanisms (ride the lightning, lighting strike, etc). Only when they screw up, get caught flat footed or after a really protracted fight, are the really vulnerable when played properly.

Musty.3148:

I’ll give you the point that in a zerg you are not as effective as say a bunker ele, guardian, etc. But that isn’t what they are made for and it isn’t the point. I only used the zerg example to say I wouldn’t take ANY damage, at all, not one point. In short if you’re running a thief in a zerg (imo) you’re doing it wrong.

This is the point most people don’t seem to understand in WvW. Classes have different purposes and are not meant to be equal in 1v1 fights. Half the classes make groups much better whereas the thief contributes very little. The thief won’t even win the total damage by class award and probably isn’t even in the top three as that belongs to AoE classes running in groups.

That said, thieves and most power heavy classes still need an adjustment but not a nerf. Curbing their spike damage is probably a good start. Nobody likes and few believe it is fair to get capped from full health in a second or two from any single attacker.

As a Thief myself I’ve gone up against many other thieves 1v1 or a group of them and they are annoying even for me but I’m used to it and learned how to counter their mechanics and the problem with culling.
The only thing I have a problem is mass invisibility used by large groups these days funnily enough and it’s not down to thieves skills which have a player limit.
Overall they just need to fix culling, most thieves are squishy taking away too much stealth you are going to destroy a profession and if you think thieves can’t run in zerg you’re wrong, we can cause havoc more than you think.

Samhayn.2385:

I also play a thief and I will say this. Stealth does not need to be nerfed, culling needs to be fixed BUT in the mean time we should most likely increase the revealed debuff to make up the difference in load times till said time that culling is fixed.

+1
Agreed. Sounds reasonable as an interim solution.

oZii.2864:

Svarty.8019:

• If WvW is not meant to be played solo, then why are thieves allowed to?

Video of warrior fighting multiple opponents, multiple thieves and guardians, solo roaming WvW. Its a really good video.

You can tell this guy knows how to play since he makes them waste dodges. He also hits the thieves in stealth many times.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHgkx2w4LrY

1. See point about exceptional players rather than ordinary ones.
2. The warrior in the video jumps people and there are no scenes in the video where the thief gets a jump on him, possibly because those don’t end so well for him, but I would expect a warrior to be one of the classes that might be better at countering a thief due to an enormous innate health pool.

Musty.3148:

Magiofdeath.2745:

Well, this is definitely a different post – hearing about the experience from the other side (the thief side). Regardless, this will end up in linksville just like the other thief post. I agree with your post though.

Hell, I’ve been saying this for months, I stopped playing my 80 thief because it’s an imbarassingly easy class to curbstomp people with. Any of you kids playing them should be imbarrassed for picking and continuing to play such an imbarrassingly OP class.

I can stealth into a zerg, DPS someone down, restealth, stomp and SB out in about 5 seconds without taking 1 damage. I did it all the time, literally.

If I get into a fight and start getting wrecked, Just TP/SB/Stealth out, reset the fight, go back in and curbstomp the poor fool(s) that used all their cooldowns to try to kill me.

Anyone that is Pro-stealth as is is really just kidding themselves. It’s way out of whack probably because of the culling. But they really need to make a short term fix until they can get culling fixed or it’s going to cost a lot of players.

So…thief is easymode you say and we should reroll. From your signature, we should all reroll ele/mesmer/guardian…oh wait those classes are all OP in their own ways too. LMAO

Every prof has builds that counter Thieves almost 100%. I used to main a Thief now a mesmer. I have no problems killing Thieves in fact they are my favorite kill. This would be the same for any prof I choose to play and invest the time to L2P it. People saying they take out 5+ no problem are fighting bads plain and simple and WvW is full of bads.

Just remember this thread originally wasnt about thieves 1v1, it was about abusing the stealth mechanic, which is the most interesting topic. WvW is about large scale combat, not 1v1 or 1v5, thats spvp. Problem is still; Thieves have abilities which makes large group of players invisible for a long time, due to culling bugs etc and whatnotwhatever. Anet need to divide these issues into 2 separate ones, thieves abilities into one (balancing issue) and their ability to cvreate huge disparities in the wvw scene when 2 equal groups fight each other. How are they going to fix the culling abusing warbands?

killimandros.5087:

Just remember this thread originally wasnt about thieves 1v1, it was about abusing the stealth mechanic, which is the most interesting topic. WvW is about large scale combat, not 1v1 or 1v5, thats spvp.

WvW is a sandbox style about whatever the player wants it to be. Anet has even said they are looking for ways to encourage smaller scale play in WvW so stop trying to force your play-style on everyone else k?

killimandros.5087:

Just remember this thread originally wasnt about thieves 1v1, it was about abusing the stealth mechanic, which is the most interesting topic. WvW is about large scale combat, not 1v1 or 1v5, thats spvp. Problem is still; Thieves have abilities which makes large group of players invisible for a long time, due to culling bugs etc and whatnotwhatever. Anet need to divide these issues into 2 separate ones, thieves abilities into one (balancing issue) and their ability to cvreate huge disparities in the wvw scene when 2 equal groups fight each other. How are they going to fix the culling abusing warbands?

I didn’t know SF affected a large group of players….What you are talking about is Veil and Mass stealth which are Mesmer abilities.

If this thread is really about mass group stealth and its affect on culling, direct your attention to the mesmer.

If this thread is really about curpstomping people 1v1 using stealth, direct your attention to the thief.

You can’t blame the thief for mass group stealth when the mesmer is the culprit.

Im not trying to force anything on anyone. I am just merely pointing out the fact this thread intentionally was NOT about the thief on a small scale note, but problems one of its abilities would make in a wvw situation. Maybe you need new glasses or someone to help you read and explain text /facepalm. Theres countless threads about thieves being op, while this one interestingly enough started off as pointing out problems STEALTH can make. I really wanted to add “political uninterested” in anciant greek, but ill hold myself. ThaT was to Stiv (shrugs).
If you didnt know SF affects a large gfroup of players, maybe you would be better off not adding into the discussion. Mesmers also have mass stealth abilities, but much shorter duration and hence shorter culling time. SF can make people stealthed much longer. Add Blinding power, and you can hide (WITH mesmer) a huge group for 15 seconds while in combat. Unless you actively abuse this bug, and you do not see any other way to win an even fight, you would probably understand the issue. Add how this is a zerg BOOSTER, not buster (which is wat the game needs to split up zergs and stop lag/culling issues), its a BIG problem. If you are a small group, you will be seen by the zerg, but due to stealth/culling abuse the small group CANT see the zerg. Logical? Not….

killimandros.5087:

Thieves have abilities which makes large group of players invisible for a long time, due to culling bugs etc and whatnotwhatever.

I believe a thieves hut effects five people and I think when the sixth steps in it stops adding cloak to the first making their hut poor for stacking. Mesmers group invis on the other hand is better as I think it effects 10.

Group stealth is hardly broken though. Portals are far more powerful and the combination of stealth/portal is one of the best defenses a small group has against zergs and built up siege.

killimandros.5087:

Im not trying to force anything on anyone. I am just merely pointing out the fact this thread intentionally was NOT about the thief on a small scale note, but problems one of its abilities would make in a wvw situation. Maybe you need new glasses or someone to help you read and explain text /facepalm. Theres countless threads about thieves being op, while this one interestingly enough started off as pointing out problems STEALTH can make. I really wanted to add “political uninterested” in anciant greek, but ill hold myself.

“Thieves have abilities which makes large group of players invisible "

Then don’t make comment like this without knowing stealth mechanics. We do have abilities that stealth a SMALL number of players (5) invisible but no where near what a single mesmer is capable of.

And I get your point. This thread isn’t about thief – it is about stealth in general. It is fine to redirect the thread back on course but when you make false statement like that how can I take you seriously?

Edit*
“If you didnt know SF affects a large gfroup of players, maybe you would be better off not adding into the discussion.”

Killimandros…the door out is that way.

Sifu; you need 3 thieves, 13 players of whatever class with their brains connected to their spine. You make 3 SR, people enter and can attack unseen. 15 people stealthed. You have 4 thieves. You have 5 thieves…see the problem? SR last so long with the culling and a handy mesmer a huge group can attack unseen and fight unseen 15-20 seconds. I have a thief, as I pointed out. Its not hard to make a puzerg stand under the hut, add swiftness on them and finally memser stealth line. Culling takes care of the rest. The bigger group, the longer culling. Hence its a problem in WvW not pve or spvp.

Take a look at how some of the most known guild groups abuse this. A couple of weeks ago, we fought RG. Most of the time we were running around without seeing them. If stealth makes this possible, be it thieves, mesmers, its a huge impact to wvw. It is THE biggest problem, because it ONLY gives huge groups benefits. The bigger the grooup, the more effective the stealth.
and Sifu, I just noticed your last 50 posts are all about defending thieves abilities, so Im not going to argue anymore with you :-) (apart from the one where you challenge anyone to fight your p/d build, which is the same one I use, its neat)

Tried out the stealth heavy d/d build the other day and found out a couple of things.

It is slow and actually quite tricky to get a clean engagement.

The amount of players that are glass cannons was shocking. You don’t feel it playing conditions so it was a surprise how fast players dropped. These builds hit hard but not that hard.

It is very effective against bad players and almost suicidal against experienced players.

Its dull to play and against anyone who isn’t glass not that effective.

Culling pfft outside of big zerg fights it only seems to effect the players that stand stock still utterly unaware of their surroundings .

Back to p/d and conditions for me. Much more fun and effective to play.

P/d, and S/d(stun) are the builds that thrive on stealth traits and are the ones that would be nerfed. They aren’t the ones generally complained about. They might even be o.p. but all I read about is backstab backed up more often than not with videos of dreadful glass players dying to it.

killimandros.5087:

Sifu; you need 3 thieves, 13 players of whatever class with their brains connected to their spine. You make 3 SR, people enter and can attack unseen. 15 people stealthed. You have 4 thieves. You have 5 thieves…see the problem? SR last so long with the culling and a handy mesmer a huge group can attack unseen and fight unseen 15-20 seconds. I have a thief, as I pointed out. Its not hard to make a puzerg stand under the hut, add swiftness on them and finally memser stealth line. Culling takes care of the rest. The bigger group, the longer culling. Hence its a problem in WvW not pve or spvp.

Take a look at how some of the most known guild groups abuse this. A couple of weeks ago, we fought RG. Most of the time we were running around without seeing them. If stealth makes this possible, be it thieves, mesmers, its a huge impact to wvw. It is THE biggest problem, because it ONLY gives huge groups benefits. The bigger the grooup, the more effective the stealth.

/facepalm. Getting desperate man…

What’s next? 20 Norn with snow leop elite stealth at the same time forcing culling?

killimandros.5087:

Sifu; you need 3 thieves, 13 players of whatever class with their brains connected to their spine. You make 3 SR, people enter and can attack unseen. 15 people stealthed. You have 4 thieves. You have 5 thieves…see the problem? SR last so long with the culling and a handy mesmer a huge group can attack unseen and fight unseen 15-20 seconds. I have a thief, as I pointed out. Its not hard to make a puzerg stand under the hut, add swiftness on them and finally memser stealth line. Culling takes care of the rest. The bigger group, the longer culling. Hence its a problem in WvW not pve or spvp.

Take a look at how some of the most known guild groups abuse this. A couple of weeks ago, we fought RG. Most of the time we were running around without seeing them. If stealth makes this possible, be it thieves, mesmers, its a huge impact to wvw. It is THE biggest problem, because it ONLY gives huge groups benefits. The bigger the grooup, the more effective the stealth.
and Sifu, I just noticed your last 50 posts are all about defending thieves abilities, so Im not going to argue anymore with you :-) (apart from the one where you challenge anyone to fight your p/d build, which is the same one I use, its neat)

I guess your first statement would work if there’s no such thing as reveal but hey fI want to hear you out. What are you suggesting to fix this?

Sifu.6527:

killimandros.5087:

Sifu; you need 3 thieves, 13 players of whatever class with their brains connected to their spine. You make 3 SR, people enter and can attack unseen. 15 people stealthed. You have 4 thieves. You have 5 thieves…see the problem? SR last so long with the culling and a handy mesmer a huge group can attack unseen and fight unseen 15-20 seconds. I have a thief, as I pointed out. Its not hard to make a puzerg stand under the hut, add swiftness on them and finally memser stealth line. Culling takes care of the rest. The bigger group, the longer culling. Hence its a problem in WvW not pve or spvp.

Take a look at how some of the most known guild groups abuse this. A couple of weeks ago, we fought RG. Most of the time we were running around without seeing them. If stealth makes this possible, be it thieves, mesmers, its a huge impact to wvw. It is THE biggest problem, because it ONLY gives huge groups benefits. The bigger the grooup, the more effective the stealth.
and Sifu, I just noticed your last 50 posts are all about defending thieves abilities, so Im not going to argue anymore with you :-) (apart from the one where you challenge anyone to fight your p/d build, which is the same one I use, its neat)

What are you suggesting to fix this?

Are you suggesting abuse of culling doesnt exist? I was merely pointing out how I personally (and if you didnt know about it, I cant help you) experience culling abuse, both from the receiving and giving point of view. How to fix it? As gamebreaking as it is, stealth timers must be ended immediately on damage in wvw. At the same time reduce stealth timers in general to make up for the culling. Personally id like stealth to be removed, added with something like camouflage on non movement, but I doubt many would agree with me on that, so im not gonna discuss it, its just my personal preference as I believe fighting something you see (especially when fighting classes who initially CANT stealth) is more entertaining than the current state. And please dont give me any infractions for this that Im writing. If you feel offended go out and breathe.

Sifu.6527:

/facepalm. Getting desperate man…

What’s next? 20 Norn with snow leop elite stealth at the same time forcing culling?

We need to nerf Norns and Snow leopards!!! They have to much mobility and they get invis with knockbacks. Have you guys fought a group of 5 norns its impossible to win.

killimandros.5087:

Sifu.6527:

killimandros.5087:

Sifu; you need 3 thieves, 13 players of whatever class with their brains connected to their spine. You make 3 SR, people enter and can attack unseen. 15 people stealthed. You have 4 thieves. You have 5 thieves…see the problem? SR last so long with the culling and a handy mesmer a huge group can attack unseen and fight unseen 15-20 seconds. I have a thief, as I pointed out. Its not hard to make a puzerg stand under the hut, add swiftness on them and finally memser stealth line. Culling takes care of the rest. The bigger group, the longer culling. Hence its a problem in WvW not pve or spvp.

Take a look at how some of the most known guild groups abuse this. A couple of weeks ago, we fought RG. Most of the time we were running around without seeing them. If stealth makes this possible, be it thieves, mesmers, its a huge impact to wvw. It is THE biggest problem, because it ONLY gives huge groups benefits. The bigger the grooup, the more effective the stealth.
and Sifu, I just noticed your last 50 posts are all about defending thieves abilities, so Im not going to argue anymore with you :-) (apart from the one where you challenge anyone to fight your p/d build, which is the same one I use, its neat)

What are you suggesting to fix this?

Are you suggesting abuse of culling doesnt exist? I was merely pointing out how I personally (and if you didnt know about it, I cant help you) experience culling abuse, both from the receiving and giving point of view. How to fix it? As gamebreaking as it is, stealth timers must be ended immediately on damage in wvw. At the same time reduce stealth timers in general to make up for the culling. Personally id like stealth to be removed, added with something like camouflage on non movement, but I doubt many would agree with me on that, so im not gonna discuss it, its just my personal preference as I believe fighting something you see (especially when fighting classes who initially CANT stealth) is more entertaining than the current state. And please dont give me any infractions for this that Im writing. If you feel offended go out and breathe.

Its obvious from your suggestion that you want stealth removed. Yea adjust stealth timers and reduce stealth timers. Or just have the mesmer in your zerg run mass invis maybe? I am sure there is a mesmer in every zerg. Its not like Red server has access to mass invis but blue and green don’t. Everyone is affected by culling so while it sucks its not like 1 server doesn’t get culling and the other does.

Just make the argument to fix culling instead of trying to adjust class abilities for a bug that everyone gets.

Also to add sPvP doesn’t get effected by culling like WvW. So yea great suggestion lets adjust those stealth timers and further weaken the thief in sPvP.

Just make sure that damage while stealthed makes the thief visible and a 4 second reuse timer on any stealth but an elite skill. If thieves have a stealth available for an elite skill, that should be their one counter, 240 seconds reusable 50% speed boost while stealthed but can not attack for duration of stealth.

oZii.2864:

killimandros.5087:

Sifu.6527:

killimandros.5087:

Sifu; you need 3 thieves, 13 players of whatever class with their brains connected to their spine. You make 3 SR, people enter and can attack unseen. 15 people stealthed. You have 4 thieves. You have 5 thieves…see the problem? SR last so long with the culling and a handy mesmer a huge group can attack unseen and fight unseen 15-20 seconds. I have a thief, as I pointed out. Its not hard to make a puzerg stand under the hut, add swiftness on them and finally memser stealth line. Culling takes care of the rest. The bigger group, the longer culling. Hence its a problem in WvW not pve or spvp.

Take a look at how some of the most known guild groups abuse this. A couple of weeks ago, we fought RG. Most of the time we were running around without seeing them. If stealth makes this possible, be it thieves, mesmers, its a huge impact to wvw. It is THE biggest problem, because it ONLY gives huge groups benefits. The bigger the grooup, the more effective the stealth.
and Sifu, I just noticed your last 50 posts are all about defending thieves abilities, so Im not going to argue anymore with you :-) (apart from the one where you challenge anyone to fight your p/d build, which is the same one I use, its neat)

What are you suggesting to fix this?

Are you suggesting abuse of culling doesnt exist? I was merely pointing out how I personally (and if you didnt know about it, I cant help you) experience culling abuse, both from the receiving and giving point of view. How to fix it? As gamebreaking as it is, stealth timers must be ended immediately on damage in wvw. At the same time reduce stealth timers in general to make up for the culling. Personally id like stealth to be removed, added with something like camouflage on non movement, but I doubt many would agree with me on that, so im not gonna discuss it, its just my personal preference as I believe fighting something you see (especially when fighting classes who initially CANT stealth) is more entertaining than the current state. And please dont give me any infractions for this that Im writing. If you feel offended go out and breathe.

Its obvious from your suggestion that you want stealth removed. Yea adjust stealth timers and reduce stealth timers. Or just have the mesmer in your zerg run mass invis maybe? I am sure there is a mesmer in every zerg. Its not like Red server has access to mass invis but blue and green don’t. Everyone is affected by culling so while it sucks its not like 1 server doesn’t get culling and the other doesn’t.

Just make the argument to fix culling instead of trying to adjust class abilities for a bug that everyone gets.

Oh its obvious I want stealth removed, hehe. You read my post, have a cookie. Btw, did you really complain about rangers birds? hm. But, that was my personal opinion, yes I play a thief and yes Id like stealth removed until culling is fixed. I also suggested as a more moderate approach to reduce stealth timers and make stealth break on damage (so you can actually see the warrior getting ready to charge or 10k blade you and respond by dodging). I know by your posts you dont want changes to stealth, so we can agree to disagree. I also said I have both been on the receiving and giving end of culling abuse.

oZii.2864:

Sifu.6527:

/facepalm. Getting desperate man…

What’s next? 20 Norn with snow leop elite stealth at the same time forcing culling?

We need to nerf Norns and Snow leopards!!! They have to much mobility and they get invis with knockbacks. Have you guys fought a group of 5 norns its impossible to win.

I fought 4 of them one time, that kitten is OP. They basically have Ele’s RTL but it is in stealth!!!

killimandros.5087:

Sifu; you need 3 thieves, 13 players of whatever class with their brains connected to their spine. You make 3 SR, people enter and can attack unseen. 15 people stealthed. You have 4 thieves. You have 5 thieves…see the problem?

That’s not what you said. You claimed, and I quote:

killimandros.5087:

Yesterday my guildteam witnessed 2 thiefs making shadfow refugee, a group of 20 people entered, and thats the last we saw of them

As others have pointed out, it’s impossible for 2 thieves to stealth 20 people using shadow refuge, it has a limit of 5 people.

killimandros.5087:

oZii.2864:

killimandros.5087:

Sifu.6527:

killimandros.5087:

Sifu; you need 3 thieves, 13 players of whatever class with their brains connected to their spine. You make 3 SR, people enter and can attack unseen. 15 people stealthed. You have 4 thieves. You have 5 thieves…see the problem? SR last so long with the culling and a handy mesmer a huge group can attack unseen and fight unseen 15-20 seconds. I have a thief, as I pointed out. Its not hard to make a puzerg stand under the hut, add swiftness on them and finally memser stealth line. Culling takes care of the rest. The bigger group, the longer culling. Hence its a problem in WvW not pve or spvp.

Take a look at how some of the most known guild groups abuse this. A couple of weeks ago, we fought RG. Most of the time we were running around without seeing them. If stealth makes this possible, be it thieves, mesmers, its a huge impact to wvw. It is THE biggest problem, because it ONLY gives huge groups benefits. The bigger the grooup, the more effective the stealth.
and Sifu, I just noticed your last 50 posts are all about defending thieves abilities, so Im not going to argue anymore with you :-) (apart from the one where you challenge anyone to fight your p/d build, which is the same one I use, its neat)

What are you suggesting to fix this?

Are you suggesting abuse of culling doesnt exist? I was merely pointing out how I personally (and if you didnt know about it, I cant help you) experience culling abuse, both from the receiving and giving point of view. How to fix it? As gamebreaking as it is, stealth timers must be ended immediately on damage in wvw. At the same time reduce stealth timers in general to make up for the culling. Personally id like stealth to be removed, added with something like camouflage on non movement, but I doubt many would agree with me on that, so im not gonna discuss it, its just my personal preference as I believe fighting something you see (especially when fighting classes who initially CANT stealth) is more entertaining than the current state. And please dont give me any infractions for this that Im writing. If you feel offended go out and breathe.

Its obvious from your suggestion that you want stealth removed. Yea adjust stealth timers and reduce stealth timers. Or just have the mesmer in your zerg run mass invis maybe? I am sure there is a mesmer in every zerg. Its not like Red server has access to mass invis but blue and green don’t. Everyone is affected by culling so while it sucks its not like 1 server doesn’t get culling and the other doesn’t.

Just make the argument to fix culling instead of trying to adjust class abilities for a bug that everyone gets.

Oh its obvious I want stealth removed, hehe. You read my post, have a cookie. Btw, did you really complain about rangers birds? hm. But, that was my personal opinion, yes I play a thief and yes Id like stealth removed until culling is fixed. I also suggested as a more moderate approach to reduce stealth timers and make stealth break on damage (so you can actually see the warrior getting ready to charge or 10k blade you and respond by dodging). I know by your posts you dont want changes to stealth, so we can agree to disagree. I also said I have both been on the receiving and giving end of culling abuse.

If group stealth effecting culling in an unspecified way is the real issue why not ask for shadow refuge, blinding powder, mass stealth and glamour veil to be removed why ask for stealth to be completely neutered?

you even linked first how to stealth more than 10……..We saw 2 thieves making SR. Then all disappeared. Maybe a mesmer, maybe more SR. Fact is, they were stealthed almost until the end of the battle. When fighting RG, most of them were stealthed the entire fights we had. Several minutes. Occationaly some would pop out of stealthj and disappear again. This happens on all servers where zergs fight zergs. Its a problem with stealth. What was your point again?

and to Roysten; any stealth abilities effect culling. SR is the one which longest duration.

If you wanted to fight people, try spvp. Not sure why so many people are complaining about class balances in WvW in 1v1 or small situations (<30man). If you actually tried to fight a thief without culling, they are not as OP as you think. If you actually tried to play WvW like it was intended, aka capture points with a commander and friends. It shouldn’t be that hard to scare off a thief with a group or whoever it takes to take a camp/keep/whatnot.

Culling is the issue, not stealth. There’s no point in adjusting something that isn’t broken. And culling happens without stealth too. So removing it isn’t gonna do crap against zergs who just randomly load over the horizon.

So ask for mass stealth to be removed from www.

Also I would like to add, why is no one else complaining so much about this? I don’t see any tier 1 guilds coming in here telling their tale. #itsnotarealproblem

Glad to see this thread. I had one of these WTH? moments last night where 1 thief made fools of a group of 3 of us for 5 minutes.

It seemed like he had stealth on demand- almost permanently. He could have left at any time but didn’t since we couldn’t actually do much to him. Its hard to know what is stealth and what is culling.

The thing that made me crazy was that I was actually landing my immobilizes on him (I’m S/WH / GS ) and he’d stealth and purge the condition.

What is it that a warrior is supposed to do to lock the thief into a fight if immobilize and snare doesn’t?

treyalsup.4627:

Glad to see this thread. I had one of these WTH? moments last night where 1 thief made fools of a group of 3 of us for 5 minutes.

It seemed like he had stealth on demand- almost permanently. He could have left at any time but didn’t since we couldn’t actually do much to him. Its hard to know what is stealth and what is culling.

The thing that made me crazy was that I was actually landing my immobilizes on him (I’m S/WH / GS ) and he’d stealth and purge the condition.

What is it that a warrior is supposed to do to lock the thief into a fight if immobilize and snare doesn’t?

Thieves only get revealed when attacking in stealth. If they don’t, they can just Cloak and Dagger constantly giving off ‘perma stealth’ but in fact, they aren’t attacking you what so ever. When they burst you, that’s when you snare, immbo and wreck them. If they cloak while immbo or snared, just hit in place because most likely they are still stuck there. If he just cloaks around, just capture a point or whatever and ignore him. If you have allies how lay out conditions, put as many as you can if he’s ‘revealed’. But make sure he made an attack first. If it’s just 1 thief, I doubt it’s culling.

I didnt read any of the posts here at all since im assuming its more qq about thieves. Get more survival stats and immobilize. Stop crying.

ArcTheFallen.7682:

Culling is the issue, not stealth. There’s no point in adjusting something that isn’t broken. And culling happens without stealth too. So removing it isn’t gonna do crap against zergs who just randomly load over the horizon.

I dont know if I should reveal this to you, but, if your wvw group want to use culling as a strategy, the best way to make sure you are not rendering as normal for your opponent, is by using stealth or portals. The longer stealth conditions your group is under, the longer the culling.

Actually I also believe player collision would work wonders against culling, as it would spread out the zerg a bit more, making, yes, less rendeing issues.

killimandros.5087:

oZii.2864:

Its obvious from your suggestion that you want stealth removed. Yea adjust stealth timers and reduce stealth timers. Or just have the mesmer in your zerg run mass invis maybe? I am sure there is a mesmer in every zerg. Its not like Red server has access to mass invis but blue and green don’t. Everyone is affected by culling so while it sucks its not like 1 server doesn’t get culling and the other doesn’t.

Just make the argument to fix culling instead of trying to adjust class abilities for a bug that everyone gets.

Oh its obvious I want stealth removed, hehe. You read my post, have a cookie. Btw, did you really complain about rangers birds? hm. But, that was my personal opinion, yes I play a thief and yes Id like stealth removed until culling is fixed. I also suggested as a more moderate approach to reduce stealth timers and make stealth break on damage (so you can actually see the warrior getting ready to charge or 10k blade you and respond by dodging). I know by your posts you dont want changes to stealth, so we can agree to disagree. I also said I have both been on the receiving and giving end of culling abuse.

I didn’t complain about rangers birds I just said I hate it as in dislike it. Doesn’t mean I want it nerfed lol. Yea I read your post and stated that it was obvious. Would it have been better if I didn’t read it and jumped way off topic with something you didn’t address? Anyways.

Its not that I am for or against changes to stealth it’s the suggestion proposed are all frankly terrible. I simply am fine with how it is I also highly doubt they will do any of these suggestions for stealth. Breaking stealth on damage? Really thats not thought through at all.

Its not like stealth is the only reason for culling. I have been killed plenty of times by just a large zerg that renders late I am sure many people have. Stealth is affected by culling but its not the cause of it.

Like I said if your mesmers aren’t rolling with mass invis when they are in a zerg then thats on them. You should get new mesmers.

You say you want to see the warrior that is doing the 100bs on you and make stealth break on damage (which in effect also effects thieves, and engis, and rangers who all have a form of stealth) if a 100bs warrior is under mass invis he can close on you pretty quickly. So you run some AOE build or class and your at the advantage what about builds focused on single target damage with little access to AOE’s how am I suppose to break stealth if I’m running that.

If I am a engi or ranger traited to go invis when I am CC’d I might as well not run that anymore totally useless if I find myself against a necro, or staff ele or anyone with AOE. Let me pop decoy on my mesmer totaly useless now. All because of culling? Really? Just fix culling argue about culing what you are arguing is a round about way to basically get what you want to were stealth is totally not viable at all.

Aurust.8961:

I didnt read any of the posts here at all since im assuming its more qq about thieves. Get more survival stats and immobilize. Stop crying.

Generally tl;dr posts tells me more about reading abilities which probably are nothing compared to your leet player skills. If 3 liners are too long and make you feel dizzy, maybe glasses could help you?

To Sintacs. Good arguments there. Valid points and duly noted. I guess it comes around then more to how you enjoy playing. If there were no culling issues at all, I wouldnt really make any complaints at all either. I bet theres tons of things that might cause culling, but Im gonna make an argument which is probably quite weak; other games same type same scale doesnt have culling issues. Yes, lag, yes bug and bug, but culling? Nope. As you see, weak argument. Now I didnt play much gw1, but I cant remember culling being an issue there?
I am not against stealth classes. Theres a reason I am enjoying my thief. dps wise, I dont see a huge problem, a thief isnt as viable in a warband as many other classes, its a roaming class and having abilities to roam is ok. Only thing I have a problem with, is culling due to stealth. Be it from any class actually. My personal radical solution, which quite understandably many are against, would be to remove stealth until culling is fixed. Thieves would be crap, below ranger (how I wish my ranger had cluster bomb btw) in wvw, most likely. I also understand this is not gonna happen. It would require rewamp of 2 classes, unto something totally not recognizable from the original class, unfair to all who rolled initially these classes.

killimandros.5087:

ArcTheFallen.7682:

Culling is the issue, not stealth. There’s no point in adjusting something that isn’t broken. And culling happens without stealth too. So removing it isn’t gonna do crap against zergs who just randomly load over the horizon.

I dont know if I should reveal this to you, but, if your wvw group want to use culling as a strategy, the best way to make sure you are not rendering as normal for your opponent, is by using stealth or portals. The longer stealth conditions your group is under, the longer the culling.

Actually I also believe player collision would work wonders against culling, as it would spread out the zerg a bit more, making, yes, less rendeing issues.

Open field, yes, that’s a very difficult encounter, but at keeps, get some arrow carts and let it rain when sword crossing pops. If you are small group taking camps, and you can’t see anyone. Just wait a bit, retake the camp. On the major WvW servers this type of tactic seems very petty and not really a game changer.

ArcTheFallen.7682:

Thieves only get revealed when attacking in stealth. If they don’t, they can just Cloak and Dagger constantly giving off ‘perma stealth’ but in fact, they aren’t attacking you what so ever. When they burst you, that’s when you snare, immbo and wreck them. If they cloak while immbo or snared, just hit in place because most likely they are still stuck there. If he just cloaks around, just capture a point or whatever and ignore him. If you have allies how lay out conditions, put as many as you can if he’s ‘revealed’. But make sure he made an attack first. If it’s just 1 thief, I doubt it’s culling.

I doubt its culling too, but it does seem in WvW moreso than sPvP that a thief can open on you from stealth and you still don’t see them for a longer period of time, even if it is a smaller engagement.

Also, Snaring/Immobilizing and attacking the spot wasn’t “wrecking” him. I assure you I’m familiar with the concept of attacking where the stealther is supposed to be. It just wasn’t very effective, even when “right”.

If the best we can do is “ignore” the thief and he can control when and where he engages and disengages, thats a problem. What was supposed to be the counter to stealth? Shadowbane had tracking. WoW (only payed vanilla) had hunter’s mark. GW1 didn’t have stealth.

It’s just a very problematic mechanic that’s hard to balance, that sadly has become a staple of the genre.

But like I said, yes to getting rid of culling which they are trying to do already. But nerfing stealth or whatever mechanic because they trigger culling effects just has too much of a negative impact to have to do and if not negative, definitely not necessary. I’d just man up and figure out a way to deal with it until culling is fixed.

treyalsup.4627:

ArcTheFallen.7682:

Thieves only get revealed when attacking in stealth. If they don’t, they can just Cloak and Dagger constantly giving off ‘perma stealth’ but in fact, they aren’t attacking you what so ever. When they burst you, that’s when you snare, immbo and wreck them. If they cloak while immbo or snared, just hit in place because most likely they are still stuck there. If he just cloaks around, just capture a point or whatever and ignore him. If you have allies how lay out conditions, put as many as you can if he’s ‘revealed’. But make sure he made an attack first. If it’s just 1 thief, I doubt it’s culling.

I doubt its culling too, but it does seem in WvW moreso than sPvP that a thief can open on you from stealth and you still don’t see them for a longer period of time, even if it is a smaller engagement.

Also, Snaring/Immobilizing and attacking the spot wasn’t “wrecking” him. I assure you I’m familiar with the concept of attacking where the stealther is supposed to be. It just wasn’t very effective, even when “right”.

If the best we can do is “ignore” the thief and he can control when and where he engages and disengages, thats a problem. What was supposed to be the counter to stealth? Shadowbane had tracking. WoW (only payed vanilla) had hunter’s mark. GW1 didn’t have stealth.

It’s just a very problematic mechanic that’s hard to balance, that sadly has become a staple of the genre.

I would suggest a counter to killing a guy in stealth if any part of the game was about getting kills. It’s all capturing points. So scare em’ and capture the dang point. Or camp or keep. But if you have friends. best way to deal with it is daze him so he can’t use skills, immbo him so he can’t move, and lay down conditions so when he has low health and tries to stealth, he will get downed and probably alt + f4