Guild Wars 2

Dralor.3701:

Jinks.2057:

Dralor.3701:

Not sure what part of D/D there is to stun break since its just raw damage, also fail to see how it is possibly the worst weapon set when it has the highest burst. Unless that dude was just kidding?

Because D/D has ZERO utility. Let’s go through the skills 1 by 1 and I’ll show you:

#1. Auto chain is crap compared to Sword, and terms of condition spec is fails as well. Only thing good about it is Backstab which in most cases isn’t the best stealth attack.

#2. Heartseeker is great to close gaps and as a finisher. Great leap finisher as well. The problems arise in that HS is best utilized in a D/P build. In D/D its VERY situational if you want to live for any amount of time.

#3. Waste of initiative.

#4. Waste of initiative in 90% of cases

#5. CnD nuff said.

1-3 is available to D/P while maintaining a significantly better stealth upkeep w/ Pistol OH. D/P>>>>D/D period.

Sword/Anything #1, #2, and #3 skills are far superior to D/D. The only thing dagger has is BS damage of which is prolly the most EASILY countered ability in this game.

I’d get into Pistol MH but that’s getting into condition specs (which you are focusing on BS damage specs)

The most OP’d set up on a thief right now is D/P + S/D. This puts even P/D thieves down w/out much hassle….well if the person is remotely skilled that is.

<edit>
Also its quite obvious you do not play a thief. Any thief worth his salt will tell you the exact same things about the weapon sets. If all you wanna do is zergball….well it really doesn’t matter which class you pick let alone weapon set.

I’ve played thief tons. Not going to argue dagger has poor utility, all that matters to me is the weapon set’s burst damage. Living is no issue with escapes granted via shortbow, shadowstep and shadow refuge.

The problem you are facing is 2 thieves with roughly the same skill one uses d/d and the other uses something else….you fail to realize the non d/d thief will out perform the d/d thief.

The damage is so easily mitigated now its pathetic. 9/10 times the swrd daze will suit you better.

ps drop SB and pick up an alternate weaponset. You’ll understand SB is a crutch

Kamata.5762:

This is a L2 kitten ue for everyone whining. I almost never lose a 1v1 fight against a thief in wvw. ( I play a mesmer ) Every class has his own tactics to defeat a thief, if you don’t what they are, then just ask a thief friend to duel you and you will find out eventually.

for example, me as a mesmer, whenever a D/D thief stealths, I just dodge, decoy = stealth for me and 2 clones up, so he wastes his backstab on my clone, or he pops out of stealth searching for the real me or I just pop my invulnerability, F4 or #2 on sword, and yet again he wastes his backstab or heartseeker spam. Or I can blink/phase retreat#2 staff, away, so he can never reach me. It mostly never comes to this since glasscannon thieves are so weak I mostly one shot them, but when I screw up my chance to one kitten him, look above, 3-3-2-mirror images-decoy-F1 with sword main hand. Even if the thief uses stealth, he will still be immobilized and I still can use all of my skills to hit him since its AoE.

When the thief uses shadow refuge, I just blast him out of it with GS #5 or pull him out with focus #4. Not a problem there.

We’re not talking about GC thieves, we’re talking about stealth abusing thieves that build tanky enough to survive a burst.

I’ve killed a lot of GC thieves on my mesmer, but the vast majority of fights with tankier thieves end up with me damaging them down to a third of their health, them stealthing, and then them shadowstepping or shortbowing away to reset the fight. There’s really not much you can do about that and that’s the problem.

So everyone is just complaining about all thieves then.

Its either too much damage or too tanky or stealth abuses too much or resets fight at will etc etc etc

Gotta hate those 30 30 30 30 30 thieves running around

Jinks.2057:

So everyone is just complaining about all thieves then.

Its either too much damage or too tanky or stealth abuses too much or resets fight at will etc etc etc

Gotta hate those 30 30 30 30 30 thieves running around

Not all. Thieves who don’t abuse stealth is not in the complaint.

Heinel.6548:

Jinks.2057:

So everyone is just complaining about all thieves then.

Its either too much damage or too tanky or stealth abuses too much or resets fight at will etc etc etc

Gotta hate those 30 30 30 30 30 thieves running around

Not all. Thieves who don’t abuse stealth is not in the complaint.

That’s not true. We could go thru all the pages and pick out just as many if not more complaints about glass thieves damage.

Every aspect of the thief class has been complained about in this thread.

This thread needs to be locked.

Stealth definitely needs a nerf. The only ‘counter’ in the game to stealth is random AoE damage. Every other mechanic / playstyle has a solid counter: burst damage, conditions, boon stripping, etc. etc. With the upcoming reduction to aoe damage, thief stealth is getting an indirect buff.

When specced properly, thief stealth can grant a speed boost, condition stripping, regeneration and vigor.

Either the traits need to be adjusted around the mechanic, the mechanic needs to be adjusted around the traits, or the profession’s base statistics & abilities need to be adjusted around both. The second option may be simpler, but not necessarily better.

In short, ArenaNet created a game mechanic that has no reasonable counter, and that needs to be fixed.

Thedenofsin.7340:

Stealth definitely needs a nerf. The only ‘counter’ in the game to stealth is random AoE damage. Every other mechanic / playstyle has a solid counter: burst damage, conditions, boon stripping, etc. etc. With the upcoming reduction to aoe damage, thief stealth is getting an indirect buff.

When specced properly, thief stealth can grant a speed boost, condition stripping, regeneration and vigor.

Either the traits need to be adjusted around the mechanic, the mechanic needs to be adjusted around the traits, or the profession’s base statistics & abilities need to be adjusted around both. The second option may be simpler, but not necessarily better.

In short, ArenaNet created a game mechanic that has no reasonable counter, and that needs to be fixed.

Explain to me why I shouldn’t see this as “invalidate balanced and support builds, all thieves should be bursty glass cannons”

Daecollo.9578:

Lighter.5631:

Draygo.9473:

Columba.9730:

It’s the combination of the highest dps, best mobility and permastealth that’s wrecking WvWvW.

Thiefs are not the most mobile.

Warriors and Elementalists are both faster. The thief however is far more evasive, because you dont know which direction the thief is running in, its very hard to chase.

Please, please tell me how is warrior faster and more mobile, very please

Greatsword ‘5’, Sword ‘2’, Perma Swiftness.

Problem with Warriors is they don’t have sustain or condition removal and elementalist does.

So if a Warrior gets CCed while running away he can’t do anything about it, BUUUT if he does get far away, nothing can catch him, not even an Ele.

Just to add…

Shout build with superior soldier runes isn’t too bad. CC can still be tough to deal with since there is only one stun breaker from “Shake it off,” but horn will remove some stuff. Haven’t played an ele yet so I can’t really compare to them but for a warrior condition removal, shouts are not too bad. But that is only one build.

Sword 2 and horn is my second set and I can get around faster with that than I could with my thief.

Even with those skills you mentioned though, you really need the elite skill to be the signet to get that perma swiftness with boon duration traited to 20 points into that line to break even with the swiftness duration and skill cool downs(may need a few more points but I think I only had 20 when testing, been a while.) With boon duration traited to max, I can build up a reserve of swiftness duration between the signet and horn. I had it up to 15 minutes once just for kicks but it is handy to be able to build up a small reserve since I don’t always get a swiftness buff when attacking. If the buff had enough time, can also leave the zerg with some boon left. Banner is what I’ll usually run with unless I’m just traveling.

From my experience with warrior, I have escaped from the middle of a zerg and gotten away. I have rolled into a zerg, annoyed them with my hammer antics and gotten out safely. It doesn’t happen all the time but part of that is players needing to learn how to play and they realized how to counter me, much like people need to learn how to counter a thief. You may be able to stealth into a zerg with a thief and kill a player or two but how much are you actually helping your team? With my warrior, I go in, CC with my hammer and it hits several people while my peeps roll in safely.

Dual.8953:

Explain to me why I shouldn’t see this as “invalidate balanced and support builds, all thieves should be bursty glass cannons”

Because these people don’t understand what they are asking for. They are just too busy getting hit by C&D and crying about how it wasn’t fair.

Why not make it so if a thief loses a certain % of health while in stealth, they’re forced out? It makes it so they still keep the advantage of stealth, but if they get hit too hard by something they’re thrown out.

CreativeAnarchy.6324:

[cut]You may be able to stealth into a zerg with a thief and kill a player or two [cut]

This isn’t true. With a thief you may be able to stealth into a zerg and DOWN a player or two, typically undergeared underleveled. If you try a stealth stomp you’ll be a dead thief.

Daendur.2357:

CreativeAnarchy.6324:

[cut]You may be able to stealth into a zerg with a thief and kill a player or two [cut]

This isn’t true. With a thief you may be able to stealth into a zerg and DOWN a player or two, typically undergeared underleveled. If you try a stealth stomp you’ll be a dead thief.

Yea, I keep forgetting about the downed state.

Jinks.2057:

Heinel.6548:

Jinks.2057:

So everyone is just complaining about all thieves then.

Its either too much damage or too tanky or stealth abuses too much or resets fight at will etc etc etc

Gotta hate those 30 30 30 30 30 thieves running around

Not all. Thieves who don’t abuse stealth is not in the complaint.

That’s not true. We could go thru all the pages and pick out just as many if not more complaints about glass thieves damage.

Every aspect of the thief class has been complained about in this thread.

This thread needs to be locked.

You’re the only one who’s obsessed with responding to those posts. The title of the thread is Stealth needs to be nerfed, not burst needs to be nerfed.

Stay on topic.

Heinel.6548:

Jinks.2057:

Heinel.6548:

Jinks.2057:

So everyone is just complaining about all thieves then.

Its either too much damage or too tanky or stealth abuses too much or resets fight at will etc etc etc

Gotta hate those 30 30 30 30 30 thieves running around

Not all. Thieves who don’t abuse stealth is not in the complaint.

That’s not true. We could go thru all the pages and pick out just as many if not more complaints about glass thieves damage.

Every aspect of the thief class has been complained about in this thread.

This thread needs to be locked.

You’re the only one who’s obsessed with responding to those posts. The title of the thread is Stealth needs to be nerfed, not burst needs to be nerfed.

Stay on topic.

To stay on topic: yes it needs a nerf and the nerf needed is “causing damage while hidden will reveal you” so no more caltrops nor poison fields from nowhere…

Have said it before, as have others, its going to be hard to balance the class until they fix the stealth/culling issues where an invisible player can kill you because they are not being rendered. Until that happens and people have spent some time playing without the culling… its hard to have a balance discussion.

I don’t see how ANY thief player can think it is fair that stealth is not working as intended in WvW, I certainly don’t.

Also wanted to add, as far as stealth goes while it is mostly a thief issue there is a the good WvW groups always hit their opponents after going through a stealth/invis field. With culling being hit or miss anyway, this tactic gives one side plenty of free kills before the other have even seen them load.

Daendur.2357:

Heinel.6548:

Jinks.2057:

Heinel.6548:

Jinks.2057:

So everyone is just complaining about all thieves then.

Its either too much damage or too tanky or stealth abuses too much or resets fight at will etc etc etc

Gotta hate those 30 30 30 30 30 thieves running around

Not all. Thieves who don’t abuse stealth is not in the complaint.

That’s not true. We could go thru all the pages and pick out just as many if not more complaints about glass thieves damage.

Every aspect of the thief class has been complained about in this thread.

This thread needs to be locked.

You’re the only one who’s obsessed with responding to those posts. The title of the thread is Stealth needs to be nerfed, not burst needs to be nerfed.

Stay on topic.

To stay on topic: yes it needs a nerf and the nerf needed is “causing damage while hidden will reveal you” so no more caltrops nor poison fields from nowhere…

Also please make it so a missed or blocked attack reveals the thief. I have seen many thieves just spam backstab while stealthed until it hits. Currently if you time a short block wrong the thief can hit the block but still backstab you. The class doesn’t need to be even more forgiving.

Dralor.3701:

Have said it before, as have others, its going to be hard to balance the class until they fix the stealth/culling issues where an invisible player can kill you because they are not being rendered. Until that happens and people have spent some time playing without the culling… its hard to have a balance discussion.

I don’t see how ANY thief player can think it is fair that stealth is not working as intended in WvW, I certainly don’t.

Also wanted to add, as far as stealth goes while it is mostly a thief issue there is a the good WvW groups always hit their opponents after going through a stealth/invis field. With culling being hit or miss anyway, this tactic gives one side plenty of free kills before the other have even seen them load.

Well culling’s been announced as being removed next patch so there’s no point saying stealth needs to be adjusted for culling anymore.

purpleskies.3274:

Daendur.2357:

Heinel.6548:

Jinks.2057:

Heinel.6548:

Jinks.2057:

So everyone is just complaining about all thieves then.

Its either too much damage or too tanky or stealth abuses too much or resets fight at will etc etc etc

Gotta hate those 30 30 30 30 30 thieves running around

Not all. Thieves who don’t abuse stealth is not in the complaint.

That’s not true. We could go thru all the pages and pick out just as many if not more complaints about glass thieves damage.

Every aspect of the thief class has been complained about in this thread.

This thread needs to be locked.

You’re the only one who’s obsessed with responding to those posts. The title of the thread is Stealth needs to be nerfed, not burst needs to be nerfed.

Stay on topic.

To stay on topic: yes it needs a nerf and the nerf needed is “causing damage while hidden will reveal you” so no more caltrops nor poison fields from nowhere…

Also please make it so a missed or blocked attack reveals the thief. I have seen many thieves just spam backstab while stealthed until it hits. Currently if you time a short block wrong the thief can hit the block but still backstab you. The class doesn’t need to be even more forgiving.

First valid point I seen in a while. I wouldn’t say a missed attack, but a blocked attack should definitely force a reveal since the attack did “damage” but was mitigated.

Here’s my 2 cents on thief in general based on my experience in spvp, t1 wvw, 1200 hours playing thief:

(assuming players are of equal skill level and know the opponent class well)
thief vs 1 – thief win/tie ~80% of the time, but that’s expected since thief is designed to be good at duels.
thief vs multiple people – with any build, taking down two good players is difficult. Ikittenerg, thief may be able to pick out a few close to dying and stomp, but an observant zerg should aoe them flat immediately.

Remember that thief is designed to be able to slip in and out of fights. Just like an ele, you don’t expect to catch one who is executing a well timed escape. There is not much OP there.

Side note: the culling in this game is horrible, and like many, I have contemplated quitting multiple times.

whoami.3012:

First valid point I seen in a while. I wouldn’t say a missed attack, but a blocked attack should definitely force a reveal since the attack did “damage” but was mitigated.

Why not a missed attack? Other classes that miss an attack, due to blind or poor positioning, get their ability on cool down, shouldn’t thieves have the same downside like everyone else?

Jinks.2057:

Heinel.6548:

Jinks.2057:

So everyone is just complaining about all thieves then.

Its either too much damage or too tanky or stealth abuses too much or resets fight at will etc etc etc

Gotta hate those 30 30 30 30 30 thieves running around

Not all. Thieves who don’t abuse stealth is not in the complaint.

That’s not true. We could go thru all the pages and pick out just as many if not more complaints about glass thieves damage.

Every aspect of the thief class has been complained about in this thread.

This thread needs to be locked.

LOL, why does this thread need locked? It’s a discussion.
I don’t think anybody would be complaining about thief burst if there was no issue with stealth. I agree that this thread went pretty off topic and started targeting thieves instead of stealth, but it’s kind of understandable since one directly relates to the problem with the other.
Of my three mains, a thief is one of them, and the crap you can pull off while abusing stealth needs addressed. I don’t know how to address it, but a conversation like this one can often spark an idea with some middle ground they may catch a developers eye. In other words, I hope this thread does not get locked, but I also hope it gets back on topic.
When they “fix culling” with the next patch, who knows, maybe stealth will not be an issue. I doubt it since historically, most games with stealth have balancing issues to where the stealth class is either completely useless or OP… Would love to see ANet be the group to find the middle ground.

D W.5179:

Jinks.2057:

Heinel.6548:

Jinks.2057:

So everyone is just complaining about all thieves then.

Its either too much damage or too tanky or stealth abuses too much or resets fight at will etc etc etc

Gotta hate those 30 30 30 30 30 thieves running around

Not all. Thieves who don’t abuse stealth is not in the complaint.

That’s not true. We could go thru all the pages and pick out just as many if not more complaints about glass thieves damage.

Every aspect of the thief class has been complained about in this thread.

This thread needs to be locked.

LOL, why does this thread need locked? It’s a discussion.
I don’t think anybody would be complaining about thief burst if there was no issue with stealth. I agree that this thread went pretty off topic and started targeting thieves instead of stealth, but it’s kind of understandable since one directly relates to the problem with the other.
Of my three mains, a thief is one of them, and the crap you can pull off while abusing stealth needs addressed. I don’t know how to address it, but a conversation like this one can often spark an idea with some middle ground they may catch a developers eye. In other words, I hope this thread does not get locked, but I also hope it gets back on topic.
When they “fix culling” with the next patch, who knows, maybe stealth will not be an issue. I doubt it since historically, most games with stealth have balancing issues to where the stealth class is either completely useless or OP… Would love to see ANet be the group to find the middle ground.

Assuming all thieves only want to burst. Tch.
S/D has no burst and no condition and it’s control is accessed through spamming CnD → Tactical Strike. If stealth is nerfed the set becomes completely inferior to S/P, with a weakened defense and completely shattered offense.

purpleskies.3274:

whoami.3012:

First valid point I seen in a while. I wouldn’t say a missed attack, but a blocked attack should definitely force a reveal since the attack did “damage” but was mitigated.

Why not a missed attack? Other classes that miss an attack, due to blind or poor positioning, get their ability on cool down, shouldn’t thieves have the same downside like everyone else?

might just be some poor coding

*thief uses stealth skill.
stealth = 1
while (stealth==1)
{
#1skill = backstab;
if (dealt dmg while stealth)
{
stealth=0;
*reveal timer up;
}
}

i dont think being blocked, miss or dodged count towards [dealt dmg while stealth] in current state so thieves can spam from-stealth attack until it hits without triggering reveal timer.

once again, bad mechanic is bad.

Thank You OP for posting this thread, I strongly agree that stealth need to be Nerfed especially in WvW.
Since launch they were OP, unfortunately they will remain this way till the end. I don’t see any nerf happening whatsoever sad but true. They do abuse culling at their advantage and they have strong supporters as well while ours remain in silent. Three days ago in WvW, my party and i watched 1 enemy theif wiped 7 players while in Stealth, and it ended when one of my party memebers changed into theif. We all agreed that the theif remained in stealth about 10 minutes. Alas we just have to deal with them no mater how much pain, injustice and frustration they cause. There’s no hope for us, the Under Powered classes.

I just wish Toughness + Armor mattered. I’ve had Thieves hit me in Plague form, which gives me (4,322 Toughness / 5,181 Armor) for as much as 10k damage with a backstab. This should never happen under those circumstances. It only makes Armor worthless. I have to give up a very large amount of my damage to get this level of defense.

That is the biggest issue with Thieves. They get the best defenses (Teleports + Stealth), while having the best damage in the game for WvW. The Thief doesn’t have to give up defense for offense, instead the more offense they have, the better defense they have because a dead opponent can not attack back.

No smart Thief is going to die to AEs either, hell, no smart player is going to die to AEs. The game already gives you a big red circle on the ground, telling you to move, or dodge.

This makes finding them, and damaging them in stealth near impossible.

sostronk.8167:

If your talking about Shadow Refuge and putting it in the elite skill, I personally would see this as a buff to thiefs, even if the CD duration was increased. I don’t use it often enough to warrant its short CD at present and its quite well countered by alot of classes IE guardians can pull you out, Necros can fear you out, Eles can AoE you, warriors can knock you out etc etc. And yeah, Im aware im agreeing with you

Absolutely, i know it would be a “buff” but tbh that’s the right thing to do. I don’t want the thief class to be nerfed to the ground, i want this game to be balanced and fun to play for everyone. Sr as elite would promote more setup variety since atm it’s pretty much a must in wvw.

Kamata.5762:

This is a L2 kitten ue for everyone whining. I almost never lose a 1v1 fight against a thief in wvw. ( I play a mesmer ) Every class has his own tactics to defeat a thief, if you don’t what they are, then just ask a thief friend to duel you and you will find out eventually.

for example, me as a mesmer, whenever a D/D thief stealths, I just dodge, decoy = stealth for me and 2 clones up, so he wastes his backstab on my clone, or he pops out of stealth searching for the real me or I just pop my invulnerability, F4 or #2 on sword, and yet again he wastes his backstab or heartseeker spam. Or I can blink/phase retreat#2 staff, away, so he can never reach me. It mostly never comes to this since glasscannon thieves are so weak I mostly one shot them, but when I screw up my chance to one kitten him, look above, 3-3-2-mirror images-decoy-F1 with sword main hand. Even if the thief uses stealth, he will still be immobilized and I still can use all of my skills to hit him since its AoE.

When the thief uses shadow refuge, I just blast him out of it with GS #5 or pull him out with focus #4. Not a problem there.

Lol a mesmer. A class based on npcs to do most of its dmg. A class with multiple teleports and stealths available while being free to simply smash buttons and stay at range while your clones do all the job. Ok. Ofc is hard for a thief to beat a good mesmer 1v1.

All it takes is playing a Glass Cannon of any class other then a thief to realize how silly stealth actually is.

Xsorus.2507:

All it takes is playing a Glass Cannon of any class other then a thief to realize how silly stealth actually is.

This is a pretty good statement.

Dual.8953:

D W.5179:

Jinks.2057:

Heinel.6548:

Jinks.2057:

So everyone is just complaining about all thieves then.

Its either too much damage or too tanky or stealth abuses too much or resets fight at will etc etc etc

Gotta hate those 30 30 30 30 30 thieves running around

Not all. Thieves who don’t abuse stealth is not in the complaint.

That’s not true. We could go thru all the pages and pick out just as many if not more complaints about glass thieves damage.

Every aspect of the thief class has been complained about in this thread.

This thread needs to be locked.

LOL, why does this thread need locked? It’s a discussion.
I don’t think anybody would be complaining about thief burst if there was no issue with stealth. I agree that this thread went pretty off topic and started targeting thieves instead of stealth, but it’s kind of understandable since one directly relates to the problem with the other.
Of my three mains, a thief is one of them, and the crap you can pull off while abusing stealth needs addressed. I don’t know how to address it, but a conversation like this one can often spark an idea with some middle ground they may catch a developers eye. In other words, I hope this thread does not get locked, but I also hope it gets back on topic.
When they “fix culling” with the next patch, who knows, maybe stealth will not be an issue. I doubt it since historically, most games with stealth have balancing issues to where the stealth class is either completely useless or OP… Would love to see ANet be the group to find the middle ground.

Assuming all thieves only want to burst. Tch.
S/D has no burst and no condition and it’s control is accessed through spamming CnD -> Tactical Strike. If stealth is nerfed the set becomes completely inferior to S/P, with a weakened defense and completely shattered offense.

Just what makes you think spamming 2-second daze is acceptable?

Only read topic title…: Yes yes yes, of course.

Heinel.6548:

Dual.8953:

D W.5179:

Jinks.2057:

Heinel.6548:

Jinks.2057:

So everyone is just complaining about all thieves then.

Its either too much damage or too tanky or stealth abuses too much or resets fight at will etc etc etc

Gotta hate those 30 30 30 30 30 thieves running around

Not all. Thieves who don’t abuse stealth is not in the complaint.

That’s not true. We could go thru all the pages and pick out just as many if not more complaints about glass thieves damage.

Every aspect of the thief class has been complained about in this thread.

This thread needs to be locked.

LOL, why does this thread need locked? It’s a discussion.
I don’t think anybody would be complaining about thief burst if there was no issue with stealth. I agree that this thread went pretty off topic and started targeting thieves instead of stealth, but it’s kind of understandable since one directly relates to the problem with the other.
Of my three mains, a thief is one of them, and the crap you can pull off while abusing stealth needs addressed. I don’t know how to address it, but a conversation like this one can often spark an idea with some middle ground they may catch a developers eye. In other words, I hope this thread does not get locked, but I also hope it gets back on topic.
When they “fix culling” with the next patch, who knows, maybe stealth will not be an issue. I doubt it since historically, most games with stealth have balancing issues to where the stealth class is either completely useless or OP… Would love to see ANet be the group to find the middle ground.

Assuming all thieves only want to burst. Tch.
S/D has no burst and no condition and it’s control is accessed through spamming CnD -> Tactical Strike. If stealth is nerfed the set becomes completely inferior to S/P, with a weakened defense and completely shattered offense.

Just what makes you think spamming 2-second daze is acceptable?

Daze isn’t very strong. It’s a weaker stun pretty much. It only interrupts and stops the victim from using skills for its duration. The victim can still move, evade and stun break. I should also add, Daze from tactical strike can only be achieved when flanking (It blinds from the front), and it’s a melee attack. S/P can daze with Head Shot (a 4 init ranged attack) or Pistol Whip (a 5 init melee attack which doesn’t need to be in the back and has an auto miniburst with invulnerability) Also, while dazed, S/D thief’s best offensive option is their auto attack.

After playing a lot of dd and sd here’s my suggestions.

1. Make daze on tac strike require rear positioning instead of the 270 degree arc it currently has.
2. Carry over the cnd damage reduction from spvp.
3. Remove the finisher functionality from heart seeker and put it on the sword #2. Make heart seeker a low-moderate damage cripple.
4. Revert half of the damage nerf on dancing dagger, poison instead of cripple, and increase projectile speed significantly.

Fjandi.2516:

sostronk.8167:

If your talking about Shadow Refuge and putting it in the elite skill, I personally would see this as a buff to thiefs, even if the CD duration was increased. I don’t use it often enough to warrant its short CD at present and its quite well countered by alot of classes IE guardians can pull you out, Necros can fear you out, Eles can AoE you, warriors can knock you out etc etc. And yeah, Im aware im agreeing with you

Absolutely, i know it would be a “buff” but tbh that’s the right thing to do. I don’t want the thief class to be nerfed to the ground, i want this game to be balanced and fun to play for everyone. Sr as elite would promote more setup variety since atm it’s pretty much a must in wvw.

Kamata.5762:

This is a L2 kitten ue for everyone whining. I almost never lose a 1v1 fight against a thief in wvw. ( I play a mesmer ) Every class has his own tactics to defeat a thief, if you don’t what they are, then just ask a thief friend to duel you and you will find out eventually.

for example, me as a mesmer, whenever a D/D thief stealths, I just dodge, decoy = stealth for me and 2 clones up, so he wastes his backstab on my clone, or he pops out of stealth searching for the real me or I just pop my invulnerability, F4 or #2 on sword, and yet again he wastes his backstab or heartseeker spam. Or I can blink/phase retreat#2 staff, away, so he can never reach me. It mostly never comes to this since glasscannon thieves are so weak I mostly one shot them, but when I screw up my chance to one kitten him, look above, 3-3-2-mirror images-decoy-F1 with sword main hand. Even if the thief uses stealth, he will still be immobilized and I still can use all of my skills to hit him since its AoE.

When the thief uses shadow refuge, I just blast him out of it with GS #5 or pull him out with focus #4. Not a problem there.

Lol a mesmer. A class based on npcs to do most of its dmg. A class with multiple teleports and stealths available while being free to simply smash buttons and stay at range while your clones do all the job. Ok. Ofc is hard for a thief to beat a good mesmer 1v1.

And when thieves get in trouble and need an OH kitten button? They pop thieves guild NPC’s that out damage mesmers NPCs and have way more CC between their blinds and scorpion wire… All while having to deal with trying to relocate the real thief. Mesmer v Thief is an annoying fight to be sure… But go to your dueling arenas in WvW (every server has them I’m sure) look at the class that is there most… It’s thieves look at the class that wins most of its duels… Thieves. Now not saying all these thief players are playing an OP class some of them are actually quite good. But most of them just open the fight up with a cnd+steal combo (where you start cnd and hit steal by the time cnd has finished you have a 7 k mug and 3-4k cnd) and this is all using power toughness vitality armor… Arguably the most balanced armor set in the game. So the last thing we need told is to get more toughness. These two buttons will drop someone to half health… Pack a stun break you say.. Okay lemme pop my stun break dodge heal up oh man the thief just cnd off my clones lemme block.. OKay block worked but he didn’t break stealth… Thieves get no punishment if they screw up their burst… Every other class does… Thieves also get the bets bonuses when it comes to their class mechanics.

It’s not the damage the problem..it’s the freaking stealth mechanic, I don’t hold anything against thief players personally..but the stealth mechanic is kittened up!
It’s too much of a defensive mechanic, you can heal while stealthed, you can cure conditions while stealthed….

TainoFuerte.8136:

Daeqar.8965:

I didn’t watch your video,

The mentality of the Thief defender. “I don’t know what they are talking about, but should defend this class anyway”.

I don’t know what the rest of your post has to do with anything – someone said Thieves can’t solo towers when they obviously can, but I like your example, because if a thief is caught in the act he can stab a guard and run, or hide and wait for the person to go away, or prep an attack. The person coming to defend has to wonder which of the everythings a thief can do in stealth is he gonna do, versus any other class where we can plainly see if they are running away or not so he can go do something useful for his server instead of being tied up by a single thief.

Lets back up here… I point out that PvDoor is irrelevant and that any class can do it. So you respond with a video reiterating that a thief can in fact PvDoor. Why would I take the time to watch it?

Like I already said, any ONE person of similar skill level playing any class can stop any other class from soloing a lord. It’s not even hard to do. Thief nor anything else can solo lords in towers in WvW because WvW has defending players. We’re not talking PvDoor here, which any class can do. It’s also pointless for ANet to try to balance a large scale game mode for a condition in which no one is actually playing.

I have 1000+ hours on thief. People who use dps gear sets and complain about thieves amaze me. Also most posters here need to know how to reset a fight. Your group being trolled by a thief and all of you are running in circles in one location you are now playing like NPCs. Try playing like a human and reset the fight gain the upper hand. If you are solo being trolled learn to reset the fight (run away).

Oh yeah reset the fight

How many classes can outrun a thief again? There’s decent arguments on both sides, that isn’t one of them.

TainoFuerte.8136:

Ah, the L2P and “all thieves are just better people” arguments. What would a thief discussion be without these?

More likely – bad players are getting held up by an overpowered class.

The L2P and “people are garbage” observations go both ways. Just so happens thieves are the exception to the rule and are solely populated by good players? LOL

It’s not that playing a thief means you’re better. I’t simply that soloers are better players than those that play in groups by necessity.

Most people who like to play alone and dislike groups tend to pick stealth classes in MMOs for avoiding zergs. This causes the stealth based classes wind up with a higher population of people who focus on dominating in PKs from the release of the game, even before anyone knows what balance is like.

(TLDR – Playing a thief doesn’t automatically make you pro, it’s just that good soloers with allot of experience in the genre tend to roll stealthers for soloing, giving the thief a high concentration of great players compared to other classes.)

Acelerion.6820:

How many classes can outrun a thief again? There’s decent arguments on both sides, that isn’t one of them.

Ele / warrior / ranger / engi

Adaneshade.2409:

TainoFuerte.8136:

Ah, the L2P and “all thieves are just better people” arguments. What would a thief discussion be without these?

More likely – bad players are getting held up by an overpowered class.

The L2P and “people are garbage” observations go both ways. Just so happens thieves are the exception to the rule and are solely populated by good players? LOL

It’s not that playing a thief means you’re better. I’t simply that soloers are better players than those that play in groups by necessity.

Most people who like to play alone and dislike groups tend to pick stealth classes in MMOs for avoiding zergs. This causes the stealth based classes wind up with a higher population of people who focus on dominating in PKs from the release of the game, even before anyone knows what balance is like.

(TLDR – Playing a thief doesn’t automatically make you pro, it’s just that good soloers with allot of experience in the genre tend to roll stealthers for soloing, giving the thief a high concentration of great players compared to other classes.)

I’ve heard the same argument used regarding magic classes, tanking classes, healing classes and sometimes even sub-specs of classes.

It’s not true.

The best soloers, in every game, play a variety of classes.

In GW2, the best soloers I’ve seen tend to play mesmers, warriors and elementalists.

In fact, most people who roll thieves are bad at solo’ing. They roll thief to use stealth as a crutch to compensate for their lack of skill.

See how easy it is to make that kind of statement?

xiv.7136:

Adaneshade.2409:

TainoFuerte.8136:

Ah, the L2P and “all thieves are just better people” arguments. What would a thief discussion be without these?

More likely – bad players are getting held up by an overpowered class.

The L2P and “people are garbage” observations go both ways. Just so happens thieves are the exception to the rule and are solely populated by good players? LOL

It’s not that playing a thief means you’re better. I’t simply that soloers are better players than those that play in groups by necessity.

Most people who like to play alone and dislike groups tend to pick stealth classes in MMOs for avoiding zergs. This causes the stealth based classes wind up with a higher population of people who focus on dominating in PKs from the release of the game, even before anyone knows what balance is like.

(TLDR – Playing a thief doesn’t automatically make you pro, it’s just that good soloers with allot of experience in the genre tend to roll stealthers for soloing, giving the thief a high concentration of great players compared to other classes.)

I’ve heard the same argument used regarding magic classes, tanking classes, healing classes and sometimes even sub-specs of classes.

It’s not true.

The best soloers, in every game, play a variety of classes.

In GW2, the best soloers I’ve seen tend to play mesmers, warriors and elementalists.

In fact, most people who roll thieves are bad at solo’ing. They roll thief to use stealth as a crutch to mitigate their lack of skill.

See how easy making arguments like that is?

No they play engi.

Mindtrick.5190:

xiv.7136:

Adaneshade.2409:

TainoFuerte.8136:

Ah, the L2P and “all thieves are just better people” arguments. What would a thief discussion be without these?

More likely – bad players are getting held up by an overpowered class.

The L2P and “people are garbage” observations go both ways. Just so happens thieves are the exception to the rule and are solely populated by good players? LOL

It’s not that playing a thief means you’re better. I’t simply that soloers are better players than those that play in groups by necessity.

Most people who like to play alone and dislike groups tend to pick stealth classes in MMOs for avoiding zergs. This causes the stealth based classes wind up with a higher population of people who focus on dominating in PKs from the release of the game, even before anyone knows what balance is like.

(TLDR – Playing a thief doesn’t automatically make you pro, it’s just that good soloers with allot of experience in the genre tend to roll stealthers for soloing, giving the thief a high concentration of great players compared to other classes.)

I’ve heard the same argument used regarding magic classes, tanking classes, healing classes and sometimes even sub-specs of classes.

It’s not true.

The best soloers, in every game, play a variety of classes.

In GW2, the best soloers I’ve seen tend to play mesmers, warriors and elementalists.

In fact, most people who roll thieves are bad at solo’ing. They roll thief to use stealth as a crutch to mitigate their lack of skill.

See how easy making arguments like that is?

No they play engi.

Or ranger.

xiv.7136:

Mindtrick.5190:

xiv.7136:

Adaneshade.2409:

TainoFuerte.8136:

Ah, the L2P and “all thieves are just better people” arguments. What would a thief discussion be without these?

More likely – bad players are getting held up by an overpowered class.

The L2P and “people are garbage” observations go both ways. Just so happens thieves are the exception to the rule and are solely populated by good players? LOL

It’s not that playing a thief means you’re better. I’t simply that soloers are better players than those that play in groups by necessity.

Most people who like to play alone and dislike groups tend to pick stealth classes in MMOs for avoiding zergs. This causes the stealth based classes wind up with a higher population of people who focus on dominating in PKs from the release of the game, even before anyone knows what balance is like.

(TLDR – Playing a thief doesn’t automatically make you pro, it’s just that good soloers with allot of experience in the genre tend to roll stealthers for soloing, giving the thief a high concentration of great players compared to other classes.)

I’ve heard the same argument used regarding magic classes, tanking classes, healing classes and sometimes even sub-specs of classes.

It’s not true.

The best soloers, in every game, play a variety of classes.

In GW2, the best soloers I’ve seen tend to play mesmers, warriors and elementalists.

In fact, most people who roll thieves are bad at solo’ing. They roll thief to use stealth as a crutch to mitigate their lack of skill.

See how easy making arguments like that is?

No they play engi.

Or ranger.

I’m not a ranger fan cause of a streamer named krippiarrrrriean his spread sheet never saved him from my backstab. What’s on paper means little

Adaneshade.2409:

TainoFuerte.8136:

Ah, the L2P and “all thieves are just better people” arguments. What would a thief discussion be without these?

More likely – bad players are getting held up by an overpowered class.

The L2P and “people are garbage” observations go both ways. Just so happens thieves are the exception to the rule and are solely populated by good players? LOL

It’s not that playing a thief means you’re better. I’t simply that soloers are better players than those that play in groups by necessity.

Most people who like to play alone and dislike groups tend to pick stealth classes in MMOs for avoiding zergs. This causes the stealth based classes wind up with a higher population of people who focus on dominating in PKs from the release of the game, even before anyone knows what balance is like.

(TLDR – Playing a thief doesn’t automatically make you pro, it’s just that good soloers with allot of experience in the genre tend to roll stealthers for soloing, giving the thief a high concentration of great players compared to other classes.)

i just laughed the bejeezus out of me.

The ability to reset a fight will always be overpowered in any PvP game..

The ability to do it multiple times till you manage to win is why Stealth is overpowered.

in DAOC if I screwed up, I could vanish and be useless for a bit..It had a long cooldown.

in Warhammer online, i had to exit combat for 10 seconds I believe it was before i could stealth again.

In Rift, Vanish in that game had a 2 minute timer, and was moronic as well.

In SWTOR, Marauders had an incombat stealth on a short cooldown that they could abuse and again, they were overpowered…

This game actually goes a step beyond Marauders in stupidity..

You can stealth, constantly.. in combat…With no Penalty….there is no disadvantage to having stealth in this game…

You can escape virtually every fight if you just play smart….

If you screw up, you can just run away with no one able to do anything about it.

You get to do this while having some of the best Damage in the game…

I have a thief, it is overpowered… and a complete joke to play..

Xsorus.2507:

The ability to reset a fight will always be overpowered in any PvP game..

The ability to do it multiple times till you manage to win is why Stealth is overpowered.

in DAOC if I screwed up, I could vanish and be useless for a bit..It had a long cooldown.

in Warhammer online, i had to exit combat for 10 seconds I believe it was before i could stealth again.

In Rift, Vanish in that game had a 2 minute timer, and was moronic as well.

In SWTOR, Marauders had an incombat stealth on a short cooldown that they could abuse and again, they were overpowered…

This game actually goes a step beyond Marauders in stupidity..

You can stealth, constantly.. in combat…With no Penalty….there is no disadvantage to having stealth in this game…

You can escape virtually every fight if you just play smart….

If you screw up, you can just run away with no one able to do anything about it.

You get to do this while having some of the best Damage in the game…

I have a thief, it is overpowered… and a complete joke to play..

Stealth is overpowered if you have a low TTK and don’t need a high uptime to be effective. Unfortunately, only 1 out of the 4 stealth sets fits that description. S/D, moderate to high uptime required to be effective. Completely overshadowed by S/P without stealth.

Mindtrick.5190:

Acelerion.6820:

How many classes can outrun a thief again? There’s decent arguments on both sides, that isn’t one of them.

Ele / warrior / ranger / engi

There is no possible way a Warrior, Ranger, or Engineer is going to outrun my Thief. The Elementalist can, kind of. I can keep up with most of them trying to run.

Slot a Shortbow if you’re being caught by the slower classes.

Jinks.2057:

So everyone is just complaining about all thieves then.

Its either too much damage or too tanky or stealth abuses too much or resets fight at will etc etc etc

Gotta hate those 30 30 30 30 30 thieves running around

LOL – well mebbe the 30 30 30 30 25 thieves we can live with?
I get that thieves are being trashed to bits in this thread, but really the title is that “Stealth needs a nerf” and is really my only complaint with thieves. Not the idea of stealth, stealth is an advantage and the thief is designed to use stealth. It just needs a little nerf is all I’m saying. If I’m soloing with my guardian I’m constantly running with my finger on focus #5 just in case the cling-cling-cling starts from no where. I still have no problem with that. My problem is that the thief can stealth so much and run away and wait for all cool downs and come back into battle, mostly back in battle before all my guard skills are back from CD.
But thieves are in and out without breaking much of a sweat, where none of the other classes offer that. Sure mesmers are frustratingly difficult to target and engis and bunker eles can be a pain to put down, but at least they all rely on CDs in plain sight.
1v1 is also not my problem with thieves, since they have to break battle more often than not. It’s in groups with the stealth spike, stealth heal, stealth menu, stealth escape.
If a 5Vs5 suddenly turns into a 0Vs5 when a thief is around even though the battle was fairly evenly matched is when everyone starts complaining.
Actually if stealth gets nerfed I feel sorry for thieves, because anyone and everyone will gang up on them. So even though I would love to see a stealth nerf, I don’t think Anet will have very happy words from the thief community at all.
So I’m thinking keep all the stealth durations, skills and CDs in place, but when a thief strikes it should make him visible unable to stealth for 1,5 or 2 seconds. When in stealth during combat there should be a movement penalty (or at the very least not a movement bonus).

If your having problems with a thief whilst playing a guardian, theres learn to play issues.

sostronk.8167:

If your having problems with a thief whilst playing a guardian, theres learn to play issues.

Ugh – over stating the L2P thing is getting really old. I don’t have issues 1v1 I’ve said before that I’ve won a ton of times but also lost a fair share. It’s the escape mechanic I have an issue with….

EDIT: and just to be sure, normally it’s a thief who decides to instantiate battle. But if things go sour for him then poof! run awaaaay! If I decide to take on a warrior and things go sour for me it’s death. Bring up the situation where reinforcements arrive and I had the upper hand – it’s death. Thief not so much – just hit the magic save repair expenses button and vanish.

They already have a 3 second debuff… Culling takes effect here… I think the debuff should apply whether they cause damage or not.. This would make them choose wisely before they started using stealth…