Guild Wars 2

Victory.2879:

The crying from thieves in this thread is making me laugh.

Might want to read the thread again.

Half of this thread is non-Thieves not understanding the implications of this change (revealed and stealth mechanics). The other half are Thieves saying they are okay with this change because it will have a minimal impact overall.

Titan.3472:

Next change will be confusion stack will increase in duration and not in overal damages.

erm you… you dont wanna do that…..believe me u do not want to increase confusion duration….just like no…trust me ……

This “nerf” is fine by me. I will still enjoy perma stealthing in towers. Sweep away boys, sweep away.

Adaneshade.2409:

- S/D “not alot of damage” … rofl, I’m in full on soldiers gear and still pump out 12k + in a burst with this build, stealth is only used to set up an interrupt…chaining stealth one after the other isn’t really required, OR the best way to play this even now

A burst in S/D? You need to practice your trolling.

Everyone will just hop on to D/D. Do the rotation, dodge, dodge, disabling shot, SS, etc bye bye. Nerf to stealth? Second best thing in the list is just not be there anymore. Which is what glass D/D does. Hard to see where all this is going to remove the skillless rotation macroers. If anything it turns everyone into one of them.

2 days since the “nerf” now and I haven’t noticed much of a difference, except for the 4s stealth cooldown. Just takes a little adaption in the attacks, is all.
Got as many badges as always.

Royce Melborn.3276:

2 days since the “nerf” now and I haven’t noticed much of a difference, except for the 4s stealth cooldown. Just takes a little adaption in the attacks, is all.
Got as many badges as always.

the nerf hasnt happened yet (March 26th)
unless you are in fact playing in the future o_0(if yes tell how are the wvw changes…)

Xirin.8593:

Stiv.1820:

Farout.8207:

Titan.3472:

Btw 4sec cooldown is enough to kill a berzerker thief (they will have to play on their “skill” to last longer now, no more “I-Win button”) :p

Yeah I imagine we will see fewer full glass cannon thieves which I fully welcome. It is completely ridiculous to be hit with an over 10k backstab from an invisible enemy on a fully knight geared warrior. At least now I have 4 seconds afterwards to smash them with my hammer.

The thing about this is nothing will change in this situation. They already were getting the debuff by backstabbing you fro 10K. This will be exactly the same before and after patch.

I’m convinced most players still don’t understand how stealth and revealed work.

Agreed and pretty sure most or ‘the average’ player in WvW doesn’t understand the mechanics of any other class except what they play. Because fighting a thief takes a fair amount of understanding of how their skills and timing works, this class becomes the obvious scapegoat for cries of ‘OP’ and ‘NERF!’

This is going to seperate good Thieves from bad Thieves, simple as that.

Zephyrus.9680:

Agreed and pretty sure most or ‘the average’ player in WvW doesn’t understand the mechanics of any other class except what they play. Because fighting a thief takes a fair amount of understanding of how their skills and timing works, this class becomes the obvious scapegoat for cries of ‘OP’ and ‘NERF!’

In the casual/average players’ defense, culling makes it difficult to understand how stealth/revealed works. For example, when a player gets hit with a backstab he naturally feels that should make the thief come out of stealth. The thief doesn’t actually render for another two seconds, so the player makes a natural assumption that thieves don’t come out of stealth when they backstab. Add to that the caltrops and other “indirect damage” attacks that actually don’t remove a thief from stealth and it’s no wonder people can’t figure out how stealth works.

Good thieves will still be good thieves. The bar has been raised from its current very low level is all.

Stealth in this game has always been a bit silly, everyone who is honest with themselves knows this. Culling has been a factor as well and I guess if they overcook these changes they can always tweak again.

Best implementation of stealth in a game I have played was PS1, now that was a fun stealth mechanic.

As to the people saying they will leave the game because of this change including folks who list several different level 80’s in their sig. Well really…..

jportell.2197:

Aberrant.6749:

Ok so after watching that video… I’ll be happy if thieves really do become the slipperiest class in the game. I don’t really care much about the revealed debuff thing. My worry though… in the transition period there will probably be periods of time where thief is OP and other times it’s UP. I also do agree that they should have fixed culling first, then made changes after they’re able to see the effect of that.

I’m more surprised that when the player is telling them things like “don’t you think that’s OP” in regards to the mesmer changes they kinda looked at each other and seemingly realized “hey… yea… that is kinda OP…”

Same with the comment about eles being so hard to kill 1v1. They just sort of shrugged at that one -.-

Also while guardians are boon centric warriors… other classes can stack more boons for longer than the guardian… which makes little sense to me. Also they said nothing about fixing the long standing problem with guardians having no good long ranged weapon… (if you say scepter I’m gonna laugh)

Eng is getting a turrett buff… whoopiee -.-

I guess I’ll wait and see what they do though… but watching that interview did not inspire any confidence. Thank god for my alts…

New ideas are cool and all… but fixes and balance should come first.

Tell me how easy it is to get everyone to stand in a row with the Mesmer changes… Also they are going to nerf shatters after sooo shut it…. And right now the phantasm on the GS is bugged out and not getting even looked at… So you keep telling yourself that the Mesmer change is gonna be SOOO op.

It’s not that you’ll need them to stand in a row… just fire it into a crowd and you’re bound to pop up tons of numbers. The GS and scepter buffs do sound OP as all kitten. 25 stacks of confusion put out from 1 skill is MASSIVE damage… and confusion still does 2x the damage in WvW that it does in sPvP.

Long range beam auto attack hitting 3 people… just tack a sigil of fire on that sucker shoot it into a crowd and watch it proc every time it’s off of ICD.

If you listen to the interview they said they might need to nerf shatter in responce to what the guy said. “We might have to shave a little bit off of the shatter damage. so we’re going to watch for that.” We’ll have to wait and see but it doesn’t sound like it’ll be in this patch.

It’s at about 49m in if you want to go and listen to it again.

These transition periods where imbalances abound make me go >.>

No I won’t shut it because you don’t like what I’m saying.

Okay. Then give us more than 2 viable builds in return. Because we don’t have them.

Taking away culling is great. It’ll get rid of all those players that use it as an excuse. But nerfing stealth like this without even seeing how culling affects everything is premature. Stealth and mobility are our only means of defense—which is really to say we have no defense but just avoid everything. Now, we’ll just be shadowstepping around watching fights because we’ll be so busy waiting for that Revealed debuff even after having not attacked.

This is silently really affecting Condi builds too, because we’re going to get that many fewer opportunities to use Sneak Attack. Why bother fkittenucking waiting for the right opportunity to strike? We can’t now. Now we’re forced to use it even when we don’t want to… or suffer the revealed debuff anyways.

Sure, we’ll adapt. But we need something in return. More gap creators or closrs so they can’t just dodge away and let us get revealed to swat us. Shorter invis CDs.

This is like looking at a Guard and saying, “No. Once you’ve had your boons stripped you can’t stack them again for a few seconds.”

Fizzlepip.5218:

Okay. Then give us more than 2 viable builds in return. Because we don’t have them.

Taking away culling is great. It’ll get rid of all those players that use it as an excuse. But nerfing stealth like this without even seeing how culling affects everything is premature. Stealth and mobility are our only means of defense—which is really to say we have no defense but just avoid everything. Now, we’ll just be shadowstepping around watching fights because we’ll be so busy waiting for that Revealed debuff even after having not attacked.

This is silently really affecting Condi builds too, because we’re going to get that many fewer opportunities to use Sneak Attack. Why bother fkittenucking waiting for the right opportunity to strike? We can’t now. Now we’re forced to use it even when we don’t want to… or suffer the revealed debuff anyways.

Sure, we’ll adapt. But we need something in return. More gap creators or closrs so they can’t just dodge away and let us get revealed to swat us. Shorter invis CDs.

This is like looking at a Guard and saying, “No. Once you’ve had your boons stripped you can’t stack them again for a few seconds.”

It isn’t like that at all actually. You’ll just have to play smarter. For some Thief players, the change will cripple them completely. For the GOOD Thief players, they’ll adapt and be fine.

GOOD! it seems fair this is like nerfing 0.1% increase burst dmg trait…my spartan has nothing but LOL @ banners.

I’ve got 1200+ hours on thief no changes will ever effect my play style. I’m the player you hate to see.

Edit: targeting other thieves is a passion of mine.

Fizzlepip.5218:

Okay. Then give us more than 2 viable builds in return. Because we don’t have them.

Taking away culling is great. It’ll get rid of all those players that use it as an excuse. But nerfing stealth like this without even seeing how culling affects everything is premature. Stealth and mobility are our only means of defense—which is really to say we have no defense but just avoid everything. Now, we’ll just be shadowstepping around watching fights because we’ll be so busy waiting for that Revealed debuff even after having not attacked.

This is silently really affecting Condi builds too, because we’re going to get that many fewer opportunities to use Sneak Attack. Why bother fkittenucking waiting for the right opportunity to strike? We can’t now. Now we’re forced to use it even when we don’t want to… or suffer the revealed debuff anyways.

Sure, we’ll adapt. But we need something in return. More gap creators or closrs so they can’t just dodge away and let us get revealed to swat us. Shorter invis CDs.

This is like looking at a Guard and saying, “No. Once you’ve had your boons stripped you can’t stack them again for a few seconds.”

r u really a thief commander??

this is not a nerf for stealth, it is a nerf for PERMA-STEALTH by CHAIN CND on mobs or npcs.

if u cnd then sneak attack this nerf do not affect you, you get revealed anyway and the duration of reveal stays the same so i dont understand why u said that there is less oppotunity for sneak attack, unless u chain CnD on a mob to gain long stealth, which shouldnt happen in the first place.

i agree that thief have no defence. thief survive by avoiding dmg, which is way better than any type of defence. there were times i play p/p build with only stealth being SR, and i still barely die. withdraw, roll for ini, shadow step, 15 in acrobatic, even Zhaitan s having a hard time to get me.

more gap closer for thief?? 2* sb5 + ss ==3000 distance within 2 seconds, if u turn ur screen do a roll for ini then sb5 again u get another 1000+ distance within 2 sec, and they are all blinks, not affected by snares.

Spiders Spiders Spiders.8043:

Adaneshade.2409:

- S/D “not alot of damage” … rofl, I’m in full on soldiers gear and still pump out 12k + in a burst with this build, stealth is only used to set up an interrupt…chaining stealth one after the other isn’t really required, OR the best way to play this even now

A burst in S/D? You need to practice your trolling.

Everyone will just hop on to D/D. Do the rotation, dodge, dodge, disabling shot, SS, etc bye bye. Nerf to stealth? Second best thing in the list is just not be there anymore. Which is what glass D/D does. Hard to see where all this is going to remove the skillless rotation macroers. If anything it turns everyone into one of them.

Please explain to me how someone uses disabling shot with D/D? lol

- 3.5k mug, 1.8k + 1.8k + 4k hasted auto chain (x2 in 2 secs literally) [12k is WAY conservative], is off before anyone can react.
It is a simple matter that sword thieves are superior in every aspect to dagger in PvP.

Adaneshade.2409:

Spiders Spiders Spiders.8043:

Adaneshade.2409:

- S/D “not alot of damage” … rofl, I’m in full on soldiers gear and still pump out 12k + in a burst with this build, stealth is only used to set up an interrupt…chaining stealth one after the other isn’t really required, OR the best way to play this even now

A burst in S/D? You need to practice your trolling.

Everyone will just hop on to D/D. Do the rotation, dodge, dodge, disabling shot, SS, etc bye bye. Nerf to stealth? Second best thing in the list is just not be there anymore. Which is what glass D/D does. Hard to see where all this is going to remove the skillless rotation macroers. If anything it turns everyone into one of them.

Please explain to me how someone uses disabling shot with D/D? lol

- 3.5k mug, 1.8k + 1.8k + 4k hasted auto chain (x2 in 2 secs literally) [12k is WAY conservative], is off before anyone can react.
It is a simple matter that sword thieves are superior in every aspect to dagger in PvP.

In football even the best teams lose to awful’s , any given Sunday. Then you have the fans..they so thirsty

I bet most of this thread is a lot of people all agreeing with each other lol that don’t understand that the impact of this nerf is slight especially to aggressive thieves.

I didn’t even know people still stood around long enough to get chained CnD

People will just get more mad at thieves ending up being forced to reset combat more often now, instead of being able to chain some CND’s on a group and stay in the mix of things.. Now they will just hit and run even more then some already do. Myself, I use a more balanced build and almost always attack from stealth anyways and have enough evasion to keep me alive during my reveals, so I will just go on as normal being annoying.

The only thing this will impact me on is being able to harass a catapult in the middle of a huge zerg.. I still will be able to but I’ll have to withdraw myself more often now.

Well, atleast now we will see them running away, instead of guessing every time they stealth whether they are preparing a new attack or just ran away.

Ironvos.9014:

Well, atleast now we will see them running away, instead of guessing every time they stealth whether they are preparing a new attack or just ran away.

I never run away from a fair fight. If my opponent is by themself or has only one ally, I’ll hang around whether or not I lose the fight, they earned it.

Royce Melborn.3276:

2 days since the “nerf” now and I haven’t noticed much of a difference, except for the 4s stealth cooldown. Just takes a little adaption in the attacks, is all.
Got as many badges as always.

Well good for you. Oh w8, do you really play thief ?

Ironvos.9014:

wish.3102:

Ironvos.9014:

If this does indeed happen and thieves start dropping dead everywhere cause they can’t chainstealth and can’t abuse culling anymore, i sure hope they wait about 6 months aswell before buffing the thief

That sounds like a good way to lose whatever percentage of your player base plays THF.

It would give them time to L2P

lol I spit up my drink a little there.

The good thieves will be fine. The wtf I pwn kiddies will likely try they next fotm class or quit. Good riddance.

The only thing I don’t like is the way anet do thing will change something when they even don’t know how it rly work (this case in WvW the thief who abuse culling, and not the stealth), every good thief know how to perma stealth when they want(If I want I can go stealth and don’t leave that state till I want, so the debuff will not show till I leave my stealth, and normaly when u leave it is for a bs, so in the end will be the same).
I agree with the “Nerf”, I don’t agree with anet changing something, that they don’t even know how rly work.
edit: Sorry for the bad english

Nuvo.5014:

The only thing I don’t like is the way anet do thing will change something when they even don’t know how it rly work (this case in WvW the thief who abuse culling, and not the stealth), every good thief know how to perma stealth when they want(If I want I can go stealth and don’t leave that state till I want, so the debuff will not show till I leave my stealth, and normaly when u leave it is for a bs, so in the end will be the same).
I agree with the “Nerf”, I don’t agree with anet changing something, that they don’t even know how rly work.
edit: Sorry for the bad english

but but isn’t perma stealth a myth ? At least that’s what I have read hundreds of times.

Hahahaha so many tears from so many bads! Nerf was obvious, my main is a thief. Good. Deal with it, it’s deserved.

Now i can see thieves when they burst me in 5 secs..

2.8k toughness and 20.2k hp and its nothing >.> o well, atleast my nades will be nerfed some more.

I come for the discussion, and stay for all the thieves talking about how awesome they are at 1vs1.

I think I should play thief. I’d love to feel that confident about my DPS.

On Topic: Culling is a bug, fixing it is amazing. They didn’t specify, but will you be revealed if you REFRESH stealth before it runs out? It doesn’t appear that way, but I’m just curious if anyone know’s for sure.

I’ve never honestly had trouble with a lone thief because of culling or stealth. (Except when he disengages the battle and I can’t keep up / find him.) Zergs, however, thank god at a culling fix.

Emerge.9640:

Hahahaha so many tears from so many bads! Nerf was obvious, my main is a thief. Good. Deal with it, it’s deserved.

But my Mesmer:(

I’d rather have damage numbers on screen (not just log) when you hit someone in stealth than revealed on everyone that comes out of stealth.

It’s a nerf for sure but really not that huge a nerf. All it means is that when you have a zerg looking for a thief that thief will die. minimum impact in 1 v 1 or 1 v 2. It takes .5 sec to target and chances are at least to another second just to get in attack range that leaves 1.5 sec to do damage before stealth again. Since thief is most likely the one on the offense it won’t change things much .

The other thing right now the meta of the game is zerg vs zerg and the thief is not that good in tha situation, I use my guardian, warrior or mesmer for that so the thief go to a second page.

this is a nerf to S$&T playing thief’s. I consider myself a S#$t player as a thief. I SUCK as a thief in pve. WVW i do really well with culling and pretty much unlimited stealth. I can hit someone 5-6 x before culling catches up and they seem me but W/e they are 90% dead by then. IDK about this patch it will make me learn my thief better instead of using 3 buttons and running.

Emerge.9640:

Hahahaha so many tears from so many bads! Nerf was obvious, my main is a thief. Good. Deal with it, it’s deserved.

In this topic, there are more people who are obviously mad@thieves saying this comment then there is thieves actually complaining about the nerf. Just lol. Btw, if you are bad, good thieves are still gonna crap on ya.

oZii.2864:

I bet most of this thread is a lot of people all agreeing with each other lol that don’t understand that the impact of this nerf is slight especially to aggressive thieves.

I didn’t even know people still stood around long enough to get chained CnD

This is exactly true. This “nerf” won’t affect us thief players much at all. People saying it will separate the good from the bad is just hilarious. This will just cause even more people who play thief to move to one type of build, and people will soon scream to nerf that build as well.

dank.3680:

Emerge.9640:

Hahahaha so many tears from so many bads! Nerf was obvious, my main is a thief. Good. Deal with it, it’s deserved.

In this topic, there are more people who are obviously mad@thieves saying this comment then there is thieves actually complaining about the nerf. Just lol. Btw, if you are bad, good thieves are still gonna crap on ya.

But now a bad thief will crap on a bad player less. Seems pretty fair to me…

Sunflowers.1729:

dank.3680:

Emerge.9640:

Hahahaha so many tears from so many bads! Nerf was obvious, my main is a thief. Good. Deal with it, it’s deserved.

In this topic, there are more people who are obviously mad@thieves saying this comment then there is thieves actually complaining about the nerf. Just lol. Btw, if you are bad, good thieves are still gonna crap on ya.

But now a bad thief will crap on a bad player less. Seems pretty fair to me…

Actually now a “bad thief” which i consider to be all full zerker 25/30/0/0/15 build thief will crap same as he craped before, becouse for this build revealed when stealth ends on its own will change nothing. It will however destroy the staying in battle power for stealth based x/d thieves, knowing how squishy they are even in tankish builds.

Karolis.4261:

Sunflowers.1729:

dank.3680:

Emerge.9640:

Hahahaha so many tears from so many bads! Nerf was obvious, my main is a thief. Good. Deal with it, it’s deserved.

In this topic, there are more people who are obviously mad@thieves saying this comment then there is thieves actually complaining about the nerf. Just lol. Btw, if you are bad, good thieves are still gonna crap on ya.

But now a bad thief will crap on a bad player less. Seems pretty fair to me…

Actually now a “bad thief” which i consider to be all full zerker 25/30/0/0/15 build thief will crap same as he craped before, becouse for this build revealed when stealth ends on its own will change nothing. It will however destroy the staying in battle power for stealth based x/d thieves, knowing how squishy they are even in tankish builds.

Not p/d thieves. They rely on sneak attack to do their damage and not chain stealthing w/o attacking… P/d venom caltrop thief is a scary thing.

Nuvo.5014:

The other thing right now the meta of the game is zerg vs zerg and the thief is not that good in tha situation, I use my guardian, warrior or mesmer for that so the thief go to a second page.

BS. My Thiefs semi-bunker Sword/Pistol build, using Omnom Pies for added healing is far, far better in Zergs than my Guardian. You guys just need to learn how to build your Theives better, than doing the standard gimmicky glass canon build.

Also learn to use your teleports for added confusion. In some cases they’re better than stealth.

Let’s just call this ability what it really is – invisibility. It’s not stealth. There’s no movement penalty in GW2 for being in “stealth”, but there should be. In fact, a thief in this game can go FASTER in “stealth”. He can be on fire and apparently the fire on his clothing has the stealth ability as well. You wanna keep it as is – fine. Just don’t call it what it isn’t.

Asurastafarian.9708:

Let’s just call this ability what it really is – invisibility. It’s not stealth. There’s no movement penalty in GW2 for being in “stealth”, but there should be. In fact, a thief in this game can go FASTER in “stealth”. He can be on fire and apparently the fire on his clothing has the stealth ability as well. You wanna keep it as is – fine. Just don’t call it what it isn’t.

Movement penalty ? are you serious ? Imagine this: Thief gets into fight with someone, he used CnD to stealth and get positioned for opening strike, but target simply moves fast enough to outrun thief so backstab/tactical strike cant reach him, becouse he simply is faster then said thief. It is allready pretty easy to avoid backstab followed by cnd or at least avoid half of its damage by simply running around. You might aswell go to other games forums (WoW for example) and try explain your theory that their stealth ( which is called “STEALTH”) is not stealth after all, becouse it actually increases rogues speed ( BY DEFAULT). No there shouldnt be speed penalty in STEALTH. Do not compare other games mechanics with gw2 mechanics, becouse its totally different.

Karolis.4261:

You might as well go to other games forums (WoW for example) and try explain your theory that their stealth ( which is called “STEALTH”) is not stealth after all, because it actually increases rogues speed ( BY DEFAULT).

That isn’t true at all (I also fixed your spelling mistakes).

Can we just agree that it’s stealth because the skill descriptions all say so?

Sunflowers.1729:

Karolis.4261:

You might as well go to other games forums (WoW for example) and try explain your theory that their stealth ( which is called “STEALTH”) is not stealth after all, because it actually increases rogues speed ( BY DEFAULT).

That isn’t true at all (I also fixed your spelling mistakes).

Can we just agree that it’s stealth because the skill descriptions all say so?

So nice of u to fix my mistakes. Okay i double checked, it does not increase speed, but does not reduce it since one of early cataclysm patches. And can be traited to increase it.

You do know you do not have to have a persons back, to backstab, right?

Wont affect me because i never used CnD to chain stealths

Will not affect the crying on stealth either because thiefs will still be able to hide more than 50% of the fight, prepare for more nerf whine threads.

jkctmc.8754:

You do know you do not have to have a persons back, to backstab, right?

Exactly, some people forget that a sidestab is still the same as a backstab. Just use CnD, dodge roll towards enemy if they are backpedaling (with Fleet Shadow trait giving you extra speed while in stealth) and sidestab.

Step 1) Gear Shield.

Step 2) Prybar.

Step 3) Watch Thief run after they almost eat themselves to death.

jkctmc.8754:

Nuvo.5014:

The other thing right now the meta of the game is zerg vs zerg and the thief is not that good in tha situation, I use my guardian, warrior or mesmer for that so the thief go to a second page.

BS. My Thiefs semi-bunker Sword/Pistol build, using Omnom Pies for added healing is far, far better in Zergs than my Guardian. You guys just need to learn how to build your Theives better, than doing the standard gimmicky glass canon build.

Also learn to use your teleports for added confusion. In some cases they’re better than stealth.

Are u telling me a Thief is better than a altruistic guardian?
I can Heal everyone close to me with the boons, and do some damage, at the same time I do somo control in the field, the thief is pure damage, in a 60vs60 thief is pretty much useless, why ahve a thief in ur comp when u can have a warrior?, right now the meta is Warrio, guardian, mesmer, necro and ele for wvwvw. Tell me 1 thing a thief can do better than this classes in a super zerg.
From my pov the theif is good for gank squad.

Nuvo.5014:

jkctmc.8754:

Nuvo.5014:

The other thing right now the meta of the game is zerg vs zerg and the thief is not that good in tha situation, I use my guardian, warrior or mesmer for that so the thief go to a second page.

BS. My Thiefs semi-bunker Sword/Pistol build, using Omnom Pies for added healing is far, far better in Zergs than my Guardian. You guys just need to learn how to build your Theives better, than doing the standard gimmicky glass canon build.

Also learn to use your teleports for added confusion. In some cases they’re better than stealth.

Are u telling me a Thief is better than a altruistic guardian?
I can Heal everyone close to me with the boons, and do some damage, at the same time I do somo control in the field, the thief is pure damage, in a 60vs60 thief is pretty much useless, why ahve a thief in ur comp when u can have a warrior?, right now the meta is Warrio, guardian, mesmer, necro and ele for wvwvw. Tell me 1 thing a thief can do better than this classes in a super zerg.
From my pov the theif is good for gank squad.

I will quadruple your damage with my Shortbow, in an AE. I can teleport around (move around) far faster, and better than you. If I’m being focused, I WILL NOT GO DOWN, unlike you most of the time.

Guardians are awesome when the opposing group has a Necromancer, who changes all those boons to conditions, and spreads them to your entire group.

No, your Guardian is no where as potent as the Thief, or as good as I am playing the Thief in small group, or large group encounters. Your Guardian is a liability against a good group running say a Necro, 2 Mesmers, and 2 either Thieves, or Elementalists. In fact your group will lose to any good group running 1 Necro and 2 Mesmers just because you have a Guardian in it, especially an Altruistic Guardian. Meditation built Guardians can be beasts against a well stacked group, but the AH build is a kill noobs build.