Guild Wars 2

Farout.8207:

Bern.9613:

Farout.8207

But snipers rely on hiding and not being seen.

How little you know of the sniper. A sniper does not hide. They become one with the surrounding environment. They are highly trained, highly motivated individuals, who can sustain themselves for extended periods of time… etc

I am actually retired Army so I do know a little about the military and the various tactics that are employed. I would personally consider putting on a ghillie suit so the sniper can “become one with the surrounding environment” to be a form of hiding but you sure set me straight. You are obviously the expert on all things sniper.

Once again, I have been proven to be in error to use an analogy from my personal life. For this I apologize to the others involved in this thread. Let us stay on the topic of the stealth nerf in game.

Farout.8207:

Titan.3472:

Btw 4sec cooldown is enough to kill a berzerker thief (they will have to play on their “skill” to last longer now, no more “I-Win button”) :p

Yeah I imagine we will see fewer full glass cannon thieves which I fully welcome. It is completely ridiculous to be hit with an over 10k backstab from an invisible enemy on a fully knight geared warrior. At least now I have 4 seconds afterwards to smash them with my hammer.

The thing about this is nothing will change in this situation. They already were getting the debuff by backstabbing you fro 10K. This will be exactly the same before and after patch.

Totally looking forward to this. I’m sure the good thieves will do fine, providing they didnt think stealthing constantly actually made them good and used other tactics!!

I’m more looking forward to the zerg vs zerg fights however. Prolly be laggy as hell till you set up right but I will definately like it when I stop getting gang kitten by unknown invaders that dont bother even resolving until I am looking at my body from above.

I want to hear more about those wvwvw ranks too.

I’ll ask again…it’s a sPvP discussion with no mention at all about WvW,does it even affect WvW?

Stiv.1820:

Farout.8207:

Titan.3472:

Btw 4sec cooldown is enough to kill a berzerker thief (they will have to play on their “skill” to last longer now, no more “I-Win button”) :p

Yeah I imagine we will see fewer full glass cannon thieves which I fully welcome. It is completely ridiculous to be hit with an over 10k backstab from an invisible enemy on a fully knight geared warrior. At least now I have 4 seconds afterwards to smash them with my hammer.

The thing about this is nothing will change in this situation. They already were getting the debuff by backstabbing you fro 10K. This will be exactly the same before and after patch.

I’m convinced most players still don’t understand how stealth and revealed work.

Adaneshade.2409:

Master of Timespace.2548:

Hmmh, a bit boring. Means I need to buy my thief new gear and just spec for glass cannon or p/d then. My mesmer benefits from this though, as skilled thieves were the only counters for my build. :P Well, p/d ones still are.

Skilled thieves don’t need to chain stealth, sry you’ll still have problems with us. :-P

This about sums it up in a nut shell. The Thieves that are crying are the ones who can’t seem to wrap their heads around why a class should not be able to dominated due to a terrible mechanic. Good thieves will still destroy people because they actually use more then 2 abilities and think about what they are doing. Bad ones, well, they are going to kick and scream because their 2 button god mode was taken away and now have to actually fight players that can see them.

I find it funny personally, I have an 80 geared thief and I was terrible at it, yet I could still completely dominate 90% of the people I fought using CnD/BS. Now if I play my thief I will probably get owned alot, as I should because I’m bad at the class.

Xirin.8593:

I’m convinced most players still don’t understand how stealth and revealed work.

You’re probably right. It’s very confusing for new players because of culling, i.e. when a thief gets “revealed” people still can’t see him, so they think he’s still stealthed. Until they play some tournaments (zero culling) or do some research, they can’t see a rhyme or reason to how thief stealth works. Thieves appear to them to be invisible almost all the time, with brief lapses that aren’t logical because the thief visually appears a couple of seconds after he triggers the revealed debuff.

Nuzt.7894:

Adaneshade.2409:

Master of Timespace.2548:

Hmmh, a bit boring. Means I need to buy my thief new gear and just spec for glass cannon or p/d then. My mesmer benefits from this though, as skilled thieves were the only counters for my build. :P Well, p/d ones still are.

Skilled thieves don’t need to chain stealth, sry you’ll still have problems with us. :-P

This about sums it up in a nut shell. The Thieves that are crying are the ones who can’t seem to wrap their heads around why a class should not be able to dominated due to a terrible mechanic. Good thieves will still destroy people because they actually use more then 2 abilities and think about what they are doing. Bad ones, well, they are going to kick and scream because their 2 button god mode was taken away and now have to actually fight players that can see them.

I find it funny personally, I have an 80 geared thief and I was terrible at it, yet I could still completely dominate 90% of the people I fought using CnD/BS. Now if I play my thief I will probably get owned alot, as I should because I’m bad at the class.

It’s a familiarity thing. Even if you arne’t the strongest thief player now, it’s likely due to little play time on it. I’m currently at 1200 hours played on my thief and have found that (through TONS of practice) it is possible to win a 1v1 and never use stealth; just very difficult.

This is vs duelers built and practiced to 1v1, going sans stealth vs a bad player is not even a challenge.

Bern.9613:

Farout.8207:

Bern.9613:

Farout.8207

But snipers rely on hiding and not being seen.

How little you know of the sniper. A sniper does not hide. They become one with the surrounding environment. They are highly trained, highly motivated individuals, who can sustain themselves for extended periods of time… etc

I am actually retired Army so I do know a little about the military and the various tactics that are employed. I would personally consider putting on a ghillie suit so the sniper can “become one with the surrounding environment” to be a form of hiding but you sure set me straight. You are obviously the expert on all things sniper.

Once again, I have been proven to be in error to use an analogy from my personal life. For this I apologize to the others involved in this thread. Let us stay on the topic of the stealth nerf in game.

Yes and let us avoid arguing over semantics while we are at it.

Stiv.1820:

Farout.8207:

Titan.3472:

Btw 4sec cooldown is enough to kill a berzerker thief (they will have to play on their “skill” to last longer now, no more “I-Win button”) :p

Yeah I imagine we will see fewer full glass cannon thieves which I fully welcome. It is completely ridiculous to be hit with an over 10k backstab from an invisible enemy on a fully knight geared warrior. At least now I have 4 seconds afterwards to smash them with my hammer.

The thing about this is nothing will change in this situation. They already were getting the debuff by backstabbing you fro 10K. This will be exactly the same before and after patch.

Yeah this is true.

Regarding the 10k as “ridiculous” I think is a bit unfair when you think about it, this is at most is 50% of your hp, a glass cannon Thief will have around 11k hp and given your choice of build as a knight your focus is sustainability not damage output yet! you will easily take 50% hp off a glass thief with 1 skill.
My point is really, glass Thieves do big damage just the same as any other class that decide to spec that way and on the flip side they have massively reduced sustainability.

For me its all relative, as a glass build I have to learn to escape because there is no way I could stand a chance gloves off and face to face. So as long as there is a way to evade etc with mobility as they propose, then there should be no problem. As for Stealth? its a core utility of the thief, without it… well we wouldn’t be called a Thief.

GL & HF thats the main thing :P

what exactly is that supposed to mean?

does that mean if i dont damage something and let my stealth run out naturally i will get the revealed debuff?

If not then what exactly is changing?

Will you people shut up about culling? It’s not a factor in the vast majority of thief encounters unless that thief is also in a very large group. The thief who’s destroying you 1v1 near the supply camp isn’t subject to culling, you can’t see him because of Cloak and Dagger.

kittenzlenit.7648:

what exactly is that supposed to mean?

does that mean if i dont damage something and let my stealth run out naturally i will get the revealed debuff?

If not then what exactly is changing?

When you exit stealth you get the revealed debuff, you can’t enter stealth for 3 seconds no matter what.

So I took the time to watch the video posted by the OP. The thief discussion actually starts at 57:30. True, there will be a reveal buff but he forgot to mention that there will be added condition duration, maybe a burning arrow and more movement skills on weapons other then SB, allowing the thief to be “slippery to catch” (not my words). So, escape and evade, hit and run will be easier allowing a thief to survive a sustained engagement. This will also allow for the use of two different weapon sets, not one with sb as a backup. Be prepared to see d/d, sb thief replacing it for d/d, d/p.

Well.

If you can.

Edit: They also mentioned turning down Mug damage. Meh. I personally gave up Mug for Bountiful Thief. Nothing funnier then seeing a boon driven player having one or two of them ripped away.

Maladon.5760:

Will you people shut up about culling? It’s not a factor in the vast majority of thief encounters unless that thief is also in a very large group. The thief who’s destroying you 1v1 near the supply camp isn’t subject to culling, you can’t see him because of Cloak and Dagger.

This is not true, easily seen as a ranger because as soon as you exit stealth my pet takes off to eat you. You render 1 vs 1 in wvwvw in approx 2secs after the pet charges. My machine is not low end and I usually run 115fps without the 60fps limiter.. So culling does affect w3 even in small scale scenarios. Sorry to burst your bubble.

However since that last change to stealth agro tables which allows me to see this, I can at least target my pet and hit attack and hit you, even unrendered, because of the way targetting and attack tracking works through a pet.

Wenissa.2967:

Maladon.5760:

Will you people shut up about culling? It’s not a factor in the vast majority of thief encounters unless that thief is also in a very large group. The thief who’s destroying you 1v1 near the supply camp isn’t subject to culling, you can’t see him because of Cloak and Dagger.

This is not true, easily seen as a ranger because as soon as you exit stealth my pet takes off to eat you. You render 1 vs 1 in wvwvw in approx 2secs after the pet charges. My machine is not low end and I usually run 115fps without the 60fps limiter.. So culling does affect w3 even in small scale scenarios. Sorry to burst your bubble.

Culling limits the number of characters reported to your client. In your scenario that limit is zero, which is silly.

Maladon.5760:

Wenissa.2967:

Maladon.5760:

Will you people shut up about culling? It’s not a factor in the vast majority of thief encounters unless that thief is also in a very large group. The thief who’s destroying you 1v1 near the supply camp isn’t subject to culling, you can’t see him because of Cloak and Dagger.

This is not true, easily seen as a ranger because as soon as you exit stealth my pet takes off to eat you. You render 1 vs 1 in wvwvw in approx 2secs after the pet charges. My machine is not low end and I usually run 115fps without the 60fps limiter.. So culling does affect w3 even in small scale scenarios. Sorry to burst your bubble.

Culling limits the number of characters reported to your client. In your scenario that limit is zero, which is silly.

It may be silly, doesnt stop it from being true.
I have tested it numberous times, so much so I’ve started telling people to follow the pet when trying to find a thief.

Wenissa.2967:

Maladon.5760:

Wenissa.2967:

Maladon.5760:

Will you people shut up about culling? It’s not a factor in the vast majority of thief encounters unless that thief is also in a very large group. The thief who’s destroying you 1v1 near the supply camp isn’t subject to culling, you can’t see him because of Cloak and Dagger.

This is not true, easily seen as a ranger because as soon as you exit stealth my pet takes off to eat you. You render 1 vs 1 in wvwvw in approx 2secs after the pet charges. My machine is not low end and I usually run 115fps without the 60fps limiter.. So culling does affect w3 even in small scale scenarios. Sorry to burst your bubble.

Culling limits the number of characters reported to your client. In your scenario that limit is zero, which is silly.

It may be silly, doesnt stop it from being true.
I have tested it numberous times, so much so I’ve started telling people to follow the pet when trying to find a thief.

Of course it stops it from being true. The fact that you ever see an enemy proves it false. If culling kicked in at one enemy onscreen the game would be unplayable.

I thought D/D was fine.

Dodge the CnD and your golden.

D/P was the only one i thought was dumb and if it goes unaffected that pretty stupid.

Maladon.5760:

Wenissa.2967:

Maladon.5760:

Wenissa.2967:

Maladon.5760:

Will you people shut up about culling? It’s not a factor in the vast majority of thief encounters unless that thief is also in a very large group. The thief who’s destroying you 1v1 near the supply camp isn’t subject to culling, you can’t see him because of Cloak and Dagger.

This is not true, easily seen as a ranger because as soon as you exit stealth my pet takes off to eat you. You render 1 vs 1 in wvwvw in approx 2secs after the pet charges. My machine is not low end and I usually run 115fps without the 60fps limiter.. So culling does affect w3 even in small scale scenarios. Sorry to burst your bubble.

Culling limits the number of characters reported to your client. In your scenario that limit is zero, which is silly.

It may be silly, doesnt stop it from being true.
I have tested it numberous times, so much so I’ve started telling people to follow the pet when trying to find a thief.

Of course it stops it from being true. The fact that you ever see an enemy proves it false. If culling kicked in at one enemy onscreen the game would be unplayable.

Or better yet you see the projectile of their weapons hitting you but still no thief.

Could be poor computer performance, I do only run around 60 fps, normally. But the times I have seen this it was in small groups.

It may not be culling, but if it isn’t something is truly messed up in how fast people render coming out of stealth. A problem almost everyone who does it, say doesn’t exist in spvp.

Maladon.5760:

Wenissa.2967:

Maladon.5760:

Wenissa.2967:

Maladon.5760:

Will you people shut up about culling? It’s not a factor in the vast majority of thief encounters unless that thief is also in a very large group. The thief who’s destroying you 1v1 near the supply camp isn’t subject to culling, you can’t see him because of Cloak and Dagger.

This is not true, easily seen as a ranger because as soon as you exit stealth my pet takes off to eat you. You render 1 vs 1 in wvwvw in approx 2secs after the pet charges. My machine is not low end and I usually run 115fps without the 60fps limiter.. So culling does affect w3 even in small scale scenarios. Sorry to burst your bubble.

Culling limits the number of characters reported to your client. In your scenario that limit is zero, which is silly.

It may be silly, doesnt stop it from being true.
I have tested it numberous times, so much so I’ve started telling people to follow the pet when trying to find a thief.

Of course it stops it from being true. The fact that you ever see an enemy proves it false. If culling kicked in at one enemy onscreen the game would be unplayable.

Quote from the blog-

Additionally, there were side effects of culling which could result in stealth characters getting up to two seconds of additional invisibility when coming out of stealth. By removing culling, we’ve been able to eliminate these negative side effects and greatly increase the epic feel of large WvW battles.

This happens in small scale as well as large scale. I’ve seen hundreds of time in a 1v1 2v2 etc, seeing the black swirl that pops up when you lose stealth – yet the enemy didn’t appear for another 1-2 seconds, yet I was able to target that which I couldn’t see by spamming tab. Which btw, from playing 2 stealth classes I know that I actually am supposed to become visible right at the start of that swirl animation.

Niim.9260:

Sifu.6527:

I made that comment because you said you quit because thief is so easymode to faceroll. I assume you want to play a class that isn’t easymode and gives you a challenge. I just find it funny you only play OP classes and it contradict the point you’re trying to make. That’s all.

I think balance in this game is a far cry better than in most games and I do not think there is a single class in GW2 that isn’t OP in the proper hands.

If that were the case you could show me four man videos consisting of only Rangers, Necros, and Engineers doing what Mesmers, Elementalists, Thieves, Guardians, and Wariors are capable to doing against very large groups. Yeah, yeah I know what an Epidemic Necro or Wells/Marks Necro can do in a group consisting of those stronger classes, but they can’t duplicate the same power with the Ranger, and Engineer.

When I ran a CnD build, I saw how stupidly overpowered it was, why didn’t you?

The stealth changes you’ve been culling for.

Xoranium.6481:

Will classes with Invulnerability become vulnerable (debuff)?

I wonder..

Those classes tend to have 20-40 second cool downs before they can become invulnerable again. I think you’re on to something. Maybe the stealth change isn’t enough? j/k

Chainspell.5697:

Ironvos.9014:

wish.3102:

Ironvos.9014:

If this does indeed happen and thieves start dropping dead everywhere cause they can’t chainstealth and can’t abuse culling anymore, i sure hope they wait about 6 months aswell before buffing the thief

That sounds like a good way to lose whatever percentage of your player base plays THF.

It would give them time to L2P

You don’t understand, Thief and Mesmers are the pros of this game obviously the people who plays the other classes was the ones who needs to l2p. Now this nerf will make it so the pros would leave since the other classes are too noob and therefore lack any skills at all to play whatsoever.

lol@chain.

Says so much about stealth and the people who use it as a crutch.

I just want to explain something to you, guys:

REVEALED “buff” occurs when a thief attacks while he’s in stealth. If thief’s stealth ends without the thief attacking, a thief can stealth himself again.

Now wonder, how many time did you faced a thief who didn’t BACKSTAB you while he was in stealth? Never. If a thief had to escape, he would just cast shadow refuge → 15 seconds of stealth → infiltrator’s arrow → bye. Is this affected by the “stealth nerf”? No.

The only thing that has been nerfed is that a thief will not be able to use CnD to escape aswell anymore.

Now, what QQers are whining about thief? Being killed in less than 1.5 second. Will this be affected by the “stealth nerf”? No.

So nothing changed a part from the fact that, for a thief, is now just a little bit harder to escape from a fight. How much harder? Meh, not so much to be honest.

Adaneshade.2409:

Nuzt.7894:

Adaneshade.2409:

Master of Timespace.2548:

Hmmh, a bit boring. Means I need to buy my thief new gear and just spec for glass cannon or p/d then. My mesmer benefits from this though, as skilled thieves were the only counters for my build. :P Well, p/d ones still are.

Skilled thieves don’t need to chain stealth, sry you’ll still have problems with us. :-P

This about sums it up in a nut shell. The Thieves that are crying are the ones who can’t seem to wrap their heads around why a class should not be able to dominated due to a terrible mechanic. Good thieves will still destroy people because they actually use more then 2 abilities and think about what they are doing. Bad ones, well, they are going to kick and scream because their 2 button god mode was taken away and now have to actually fight players that can see them.

I find it funny personally, I have an 80 geared thief and I was terrible at it, yet I could still completely dominate 90% of the people I fought using CnD/BS. Now if I play my thief I will probably get owned alot, as I should because I’m bad at the class.

It’s a familiarity thing. Even if you arne’t the strongest thief player now, it’s likely due to little play time on it. I’m currently at 1200 hours played on my thief and have found that (through TONS of practice) it is possible to win a 1v1 and never use stealth; just very difficult.

This is vs duelers built and practiced to 1v1, going sans stealth vs a bad player is not even a challenge.

That depends on your weapon set honestly. When I duel, I don’t even run Hide in Shadows, but prefer Malice instead because I run Sword/Pistol semi-bunker build, that until the Omnom Pie nerf would gain a crazy amount of healing from critical hits. I’m still adjusting to the Omnom Pie nerf, but I still do not run stealth.

The sword “2” attack, the Shortbow “5” ability, on top of the Shadow Step ability are enough to buy me time to heal with Malice, and get it back up from cooldown to continue making a difference.

I love the teleport around confusing my opponent better than stealth.

I main a mesmer and I have been frustrated for a long time about thieves using CoD off my clones to just remain in stealth almost permanently and kill me.. I am glad to see this nerf and look forward to evening the playing field against thieves. Although i feel the buff should happen after the duration of the first stealth and not when they come out. to prevent stacking of stealth. 1 period of stealth followed by a period of being visible is how it should be for everyone.

Icelut.3509:

I main a mesmer and I have been frustrated for a long time about thieves using CoD off my clones to just remain in stealth almost permanently and kill me.. I am glad to see this nerf and look forward to evening the playing field against thieves. Although i feel the buff should happen after the duration of the first stealth and not when they come out. to prevent stacking of stealth. 1 period of stealth followed by a period of being visible is how it should be for everyone.

I see nothing wrong with stealth stacking… if they are just sitting in stealth they aren’t doing damage to you. If they do attack or leave stealth for any reason then they are revealed. That’s how it should be for everyone.

Frenk.5917:

I just want to explain something to you, guys:

REVEALED “buff” occurs when a thief attacks while he’s in stealth. If thief’s stealth ends without the thief attacking, a thief can stealth himself again.

Now wonder, how many time did you faced a thief who didn’t BACKSTAB you while he was in stealth? Never. If a thief had to escape, he would just cast shadow refuge -> 15 seconds of stealth -> infiltrator’s arrow -> bye. Is this affected by the “stealth nerf”? No.

The only thing that has been nerfed is that a thief will not be able to use CnD to escape aswell anymore.

Now, what QQers are whining about thief? Being killed in less than 1.5 second. Will this be affected by the “stealth nerf”? No.

So nothing changed a part from the fact that, for a thief, is now just a little bit harder to escape from a fight. How much harder? Meh, not so much to be honest.

goodbye zerg confusion -sniff-

Let’s look at thief builds:

1. P/D – This set-up will be dead. Most of the damage is from the CnD, and then the sneak attack. Not viable anymore
2. D/D – “Bunker” build – This relies a lot on the perma stealth from CnD. Build not viable
3. S/D- Again not really viable. There isnt a lot of damage from this build. It’s mostly a hit/stealth/hit control spec. Build no longer viable.
4. P/P- Bad build now and will continue to be bad.
5. S/P- Great in PvE, but average in PvP/WvW

So that leaves D/D BS builds. That build will be impacted the least. Essentially ANET is forcing people into that spec.

Personally, I am fine with the stealth debuff, but there needs to be buffs in another areas at the same time

RedSpectrum.1975:

Frenk.5917:

I just want to explain something to you, guys:

REVEALED “buff” occurs when a thief attacks while he’s in stealth. If thief’s stealth ends without the thief attacking, a thief can stealth himself again.

Now wonder, how many time did you faced a thief who didn’t BACKSTAB you while he was in stealth? Never. If a thief had to escape, he would just cast shadow refuge -> 15 seconds of stealth -> infiltrator’s arrow -> bye. Is this affected by the “stealth nerf”? No.

The only thing that has been nerfed is that a thief will not be able to use CnD to escape aswell anymore.

Now, what QQers are whining about thief? Being killed in less than 1.5 second. Will this be affected by the “stealth nerf”? No.

So nothing changed a part from the fact that, for a thief, is now just a little bit harder to escape from a fight. How much harder? Meh, not so much to be honest.

goodbye zerg confusion -sniff-

Use your sword at secondary set, the number “2” is amazing for creating confusion.

style.6173:

Let’s look at thief builds:

1. P/D – This set-up will be dead. Most of the damage is from the CnD, and then the sneak attack. Not viable anymore
2. D/D – “Bunker” build – This relies a lot on the perma stealth from CnD. Build not viable
3. S/D- Again not really viable. There isnt a lot of damage from this build. It’s mostly a hit/stealth/hit control spec. Build no longer viable.
4. P/P- Bad build now and will continue to be bad.
5. S/P- Great in PvE, but average in PvP/WvW

So that leaves D/D BS builds. That build will be impacted the least. Essentially ANET is forcing people into that spec.

Personally, I am fine with the stealth debuff, but there needs to be buffs in another areas at the same time

You forgot d/p… which won’t be messed with very much at all by this change. I expect to see TONS of d/p thieves after the patch… but we’ll see how they make thieves more slippery… seeing as their aim is to make it more slippery than an ele is now O.O

style.6173:

Let’s look at thief builds:

1. P/D – This set-up will be dead. Most of the damage is from the CnD, and then the sneak attack. Not viable anymore
2. D/D – “Bunker” build – This relies a lot on the perma stealth from CnD. Build not viable
3. S/D- Again not really viable. There isnt a lot of damage from this build. It’s mostly a hit/stealth/hit control spec. Build no longer viable.
4. P/P- Bad build now and will continue to be bad.
5. S/P- Great in PvE, but average in PvP/WvW

So that leaves D/D BS builds. That build will be impacted the least. Essentially ANET is forcing people into that spec.

Personally, I am fine with the stealth debuff, but there needs to be buffs in another areas at the same time

This is NOT true. I run a hybrid semi-bunker build that uses Sword/Pistol, with my only stealth being Hide in Shadows for its condition removal, not for stealth, and more often than not, I run Malice with enough crit to make Omnom Pies healing viable, and I dominate with this build.

Pistol/Dagger will be fine too. Four seconds is easily covered by one teleport, one dodge roll, and still allow yourself two seconds for essential attacks. Widdle down your opponent, rather than macroing a kill button that many have relied on with Dagger/Dagger.

You’re overexaggerating.

jkctmc.8754:

style.6173:

Let’s look at thief builds:

1. P/D – This set-up will be dead. Most of the damage is from the CnD, and then the sneak attack. Not viable anymore
2. D/D – “Bunker” build – This relies a lot on the perma stealth from CnD. Build not viable
3. S/D- Again not really viable. There isnt a lot of damage from this build. It’s mostly a hit/stealth/hit control spec. Build no longer viable.
4. P/P- Bad build now and will continue to be bad.
5. S/P- Great in PvE, but average in PvP/WvW

So that leaves D/D BS builds. That build will be impacted the least. Essentially ANET is forcing people into that spec.

Personally, I am fine with the stealth debuff, but there needs to be buffs in another areas at the same time

This is NOT true. I run a hybrid semi-bunker build that uses Sword/Pistol, with my only stealth being Hide in Shadows for its condition removal, not for stealth, and more often than not, I run Malice with enough crit to make Omnom Pies healing viable, and I dominate with this build.

Pistol/Dagger will be fine too. Four seconds is easily covered by one teleport, one dodge roll, and still allow yourself two seconds for essential attacks. Widdle down your opponent, rather than macroing a kill button that many have relied on with Dagger/Dagger.

You’re overexaggerating.

JKCTMC, you simply can’t argue with a guy as clueless as this…
- P/D ALWAYS uses sneak attack from stealth so ALREADY has revealed. Nothing changes for this build (still the “training wheels” ezmode build)
- D/D … well “bunker” and stealth don’t go together at all, the D/D “bunker” build relies on evasion using LDB, unaffected
- S/D “not alot of damage” … rofl, I’m in full on soldiers gear and still pump out 12k + in a burst with this build, stealth is only used to set up an interrupt…chaining stealth one after the other isn’t really required, OR the best way to play this even now
- P/P once again, only bad if the person using it is bad, it’s actually very solid if traited properly, doens’t rely on stealth, unaffected
- S/P another pro build that 99% of thieves will never be good enough to use, but has INCREDIBLE power in the right hands…doesn’t rely on stealth so unaffected

I, for one, am glad. And I think it will be an an issue for the thieves who’ve abused the culling issue instead of developing good, robust builds and actual skills.

In fact, I think of it this way… You know how thieves are frequently complaining they have troubles in PvE? That’s because the server doesn’t have culling to deal with and those NPCs can stay of them appropriately. There’s no two-seconds of ‘free attack’ and then drop back into stealth.

In WvW, I, frequently, could never see thieves. I hear the damage… I see my HP dropping. I watch the bleeding. But I’d never see the thief.

With the end of the culling issue, I suspect WvW will become like PvE to thieves. And there will be much weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth.

“Revealed will now be applied when you come out of stealth, regardless of how you stealthed”

Shouldn’t this be “regardless of how you drop out of stealth”? E.g. doesn’t matter if you attack (and would have got revealed anyhow) or let stealth run out? Not sure “how you stealthed” matters. Am I missing something?

Mattargul.9235:

“Revealed will now be applied when you come out of stealth, regardless of how you stealthed”

Shouldn’t this be “regardless of how you drop out of stealth”? E.g. doesn’t matter if you attack (and would have got revealed anyhow) or let stealth run out? Not sure “how you stealthed” matters. Am I missing something?

Nope your not, Its a pointless change as far as everyday thieves go. The change will only effect thieves trying to stealth in keeps via C&D. As long as you can stack stealth with out attacking something or leaving stealth you won’t get the debuff.

Like you said, you attack out of stealth you get the debuff (were all used to it) or you miss your attack out of stealth and you get the debuff. It would be like you landed a shot. I think it will be weird at first but I don’t think its going to change what thieves can do in a fight.

I play a thief and welcome the change, assuming culling / render speed issues are also fixed and you will actually be able to see and target thieves for the full 3 seconds of revealed. This will make it much tougher for thieves to land C&D in solo / small group situations where we can’t just keep feeding off random people standing around, because you will actually have an opportunity to dodge and use targeted snares instead of just guessing.

It will also be an end to infinite continued C&D feeding off mobs with no revealed debuff…which is good and bad. It’s good because instagibbers can’t run in and down someone then easily leave, it’s bad because it adds to the zerg safety net.

Lastly, it will be slightly easier to kill thieves that mess up their hide in shadows activation or entry to shadow refuge.

Having said all that, I don’t think this will change a whole lot with S/D thieves that tend to spend more time out of stealth and use tactical strike + C&D for their main damage bump while leaving their target dazed for the entire revealed period anyway. I’ve thought for a long time that S/D is the most OP build for WvW all around because of it’s extreme positioning control and shutdown ability. Most players go for D/D because it requires no thinking at all and is win / lose in a few seconds.

LionZero.3479:

If one of your Illusions does damage then i also want your mes to be revealed out of stealth, it’s the same logic you apply on choking gas and caltrops as both are indirect damage.

Not same logic at all… Technically the damage is coming from them… When you drop caltrops the damage is FROM YOU… When you shoot choking gas YOU SHOT IT…. When we summon… The illusion does the damage… And there is still a pause between when an illusion does damage and their summon…

Edit: Also while playing around on my thief… using signet of malice… Droped caltrops… Was healing… used choking gas… That healed me too… SO if signet of malice only gives you health when you attack then I am guessing those now count as an attack.. And should therefore REVEAL you.

Adaneshade.2409:

jkctmc.8754:

style.6173:

Let’s look at thief builds:

1. P/D – This set-up will be dead. Most of the damage is from the CnD, and then the sneak attack. Not viable anymore
2. D/D – “Bunker” build – This relies a lot on the perma stealth from CnD. Build not viable
3. S/D- Again not really viable. There isnt a lot of damage from this build. It’s mostly a hit/stealth/hit control spec. Build no longer viable.
4. P/P- Bad build now and will continue to be bad.
5. S/P- Great in PvE, but average in PvP/WvW

So that leaves D/D BS builds. That build will be impacted the least. Essentially ANET is forcing people into that spec.

Personally, I am fine with the stealth debuff, but there needs to be buffs in another areas at the same time

This is NOT true. I run a hybrid semi-bunker build that uses Sword/Pistol, with my only stealth being Hide in Shadows for its condition removal, not for stealth, and more often than not, I run Malice with enough crit to make Omnom Pies healing viable, and I dominate with this build.

Pistol/Dagger will be fine too. Four seconds is easily covered by one teleport, one dodge roll, and still allow yourself two seconds for essential attacks. Widdle down your opponent, rather than macroing a kill button that many have relied on with Dagger/Dagger.

You’re overexaggerating.

JKCTMC, you simply can’t argue with a guy as clueless as this…
- P/D ALWAYS uses sneak attack from stealth so ALREADY has revealed. Nothing changes for this build (still the “training wheels” ezmode build)
- D/D … well “bunker” and stealth don’t go together at all, the D/D “bunker” build relies on evasion using LDB, unaffected
- S/D “not alot of damage” … rofl, I’m in full on soldiers gear and still pump out 12k + in a burst with this build, stealth is only used to set up an interrupt…chaining stealth one after the other isn’t really required, OR the best way to play this even now
- P/P once again, only bad if the person using it is bad, it’s actually very solid if traited properly, doens’t rely on stealth, unaffected
- S/P another pro build that 99% of thieves will never be good enough to use, but has INCREDIBLE power in the right hands…doesn’t rely on stealth so unaffected

I agree with you. This change really isn’t going to change anything. I never really could get into the P/P build though, and still feel it needs a buff somewhere, but not sure where. Maybe added evasion type ability?

I absolutely love sword/pistol though.

Stiv.1820:

Master of Timespace.2548:

Stiv.1820:

Master of Timespace.2548:

Stiv.1820:

Master of Timespace.2548:

Karolis.4261:

Cirax.9231:

This is a good change that won’t impact good thieves, and only the bad ones that rely on chain stealthing (repeated CnD on PvE mobs, blackpowder/HS spam).

So tahts what I said, this wont impact GC zerker 1 combo kill builds ( which you are refering as to “skilled thiefs”), but will fk up stealth builds that relly on CnD or Black powder/hs combo to survive till their next opening who are completally skilless compared to google copied gc zerker 1 combo thiefs. Yea, thats about it.

Yah, this. This nerf only touches the skill based builds, but the gimmicky instagib crap remains the same.

They said they were going to re-work Mug as well. It probably will be replaced with the boon hate mechanic or turned into some sort of synergy instead of raw damage. It will be a nerf to that combo.

Then everyone just rolls a p/d (I certainly will), which is currently by far, the most broken build in the game.

It’s not that broken. Most of the time a P/D runs to mobs to chain C&D when they get in trouble. They will be hit by the reveal change harder than any other spec.

Don’t forget about + mobility and + boon hate. Thieves have the hardest time taking down heavy boon targets, with boon hate we will counter them. It’s just going to normalize us a bit instead of making us completely avoid bunker guards/eles and the like.

I quess by heavy-boon builds you mean another broken build, d/d ele? But what do you mean by boon-hate?

Boon hate is a new mechanic they are going to introduce to thieves and maybe warriors. An example would be a trait that you pick that does +X% damage per boon on your target. Perhaps something that even ignores protection. Basically turning thieves who spec for it into a pretty hard counter to boon bunkers (Ele’s/Guards).

Thieves will probably want to avoid drinking stolen Mesmer juice vs one another with this out there…

This is a joke right ? Because this is like fixing a leaking dam with chewing gum, if you know what I mean.
Artificial Rock Paper Scissors – design. I really expected anet to be better than that. Hell, why am I wasting time on this thing anymore…

This one time..i’ll say it. Good job Anet.

eithinan.9841:

glad I play a venom share build….

But seriously, with the end of culling AND adding the revealed debuff to any exit of stealth even if you dont use an attack seems excessive. Wouldn’t it be logical to see how the end of culling affects the stealth mechanic in WvW before adding another layer of nerf to an already nerfed class.

I find it hilarious that you see “the end of culling” as a nerf to thieves. Unintended game play, remember?

After reading responses from thieves, it’s evident that nobody has considered respeccing their characters if need be.

Yay!!!!!! about god darn tootin time.

style.6173:

Let’s look at thief builds:

1. P/D – This set-up will be dead. Most of the damage is from the CnD, and then the sneak attack. Not viable anymore
2. D/D – “Bunker” build – This relies a lot on the perma stealth from CnD. Build not viable
3. S/D- Again not really viable. There isnt a lot of damage from this build. It’s mostly a hit/stealth/hit control spec. Build no longer viable.
4. P/P- Bad build now and will continue to be bad.
5. S/P- Great in PvE, but average in PvP/WvW

So that leaves D/D BS builds. That build will be impacted the least. Essentially ANET is forcing people into that spec.

Personally, I am fine with the stealth debuff, but there needs to be buffs in another areas at the same time

Do you actually play a thief? Very little of what you said makes sense.

Aberrant.6749:

Ok so after watching that video… I’ll be happy if thieves really do become the slipperiest class in the game. I don’t really care much about the revealed debuff thing. My worry though… in the transition period there will probably be periods of time where thief is OP and other times it’s UP. I also do agree that they should have fixed culling first, then made changes after they’re able to see the effect of that.

I’m more surprised that when the player is telling them things like “don’t you think that’s OP” in regards to the mesmer changes they kinda looked at each other and seemingly realized “hey… yea… that is kinda OP…”

Same with the comment about eles being so hard to kill 1v1. They just sort of shrugged at that one -.-

Also while guardians are boon centric warriors… other classes can stack more boons for longer than the guardian… which makes little sense to me. Also they said nothing about fixing the long standing problem with guardians having no good long ranged weapon… (if you say scepter I’m gonna laugh)

Eng is getting a turrett buff… whoopiee -.-

I guess I’ll wait and see what they do though… but watching that interview did not inspire any confidence. Thank god for my alts…

New ideas are cool and all… but fixes and balance should come first.

Tell me how easy it is to get everyone to stand in a row with the Mesmer changes… Also they are going to nerf shatters after sooo shut it…. And right now the phantasm on the GS is bugged out and not getting even looked at… So you keep telling yourself that the Mesmer change is gonna be SOOO op.

jportell.2197:

Aberrant.6749:

Ok so after watching that video… I’ll be happy if thieves really do become the slipperiest class in the game. I don’t really care much about the revealed debuff thing. My worry though… in the transition period there will probably be periods of time where thief is OP and other times it’s UP. I also do agree that they should have fixed culling first, then made changes after they’re able to see the effect of that.

I’m more surprised that when the player is telling them things like “don’t you think that’s OP” in regards to the mesmer changes they kinda looked at each other and seemingly realized “hey… yea… that is kinda OP…”

Same with the comment about eles being so hard to kill 1v1. They just sort of shrugged at that one -.-

Also while guardians are boon centric warriors… other classes can stack more boons for longer than the guardian… which makes little sense to me. Also they said nothing about fixing the long standing problem with guardians having no good long ranged weapon… (if you say scepter I’m gonna laugh)

Eng is getting a turrett buff… whoopiee -.-

I guess I’ll wait and see what they do though… but watching that interview did not inspire any confidence. Thank god for my alts…

New ideas are cool and all… but fixes and balance should come first.

Tell me how easy it is to get everyone to stand in a row with the Mesmer changes… Also they are going to nerf shatters after sooo shut it…. And right now the phantasm on the GS is bugged out and not getting even looked at… So you keep telling yourself that the Mesmer change is gonna be SOOO op.

so what if Mesmer class really gonna get some nerf, the fact that all thieves collectively will get hit harder just brings a smile to face. That’s why u make multiple 80s, when one gets nerfed you just go play another class, lol.

This seems primarily target at the ability to initiate CnD → midcast steal → backstab from stealth.

Now thieves will be visible when they start popping their cooldowns and good players will be able to anticipate and avoid the burst if they’re paying attention. Bad players are still going to be a free kill.

The crying from thieves in this thread is making me laugh.