Guild Wars 2

pot.6805:

Anet is way too indecisive. Regardless of the merits of a reset or not, at least stick by your decisions!

Sticking by your decisions is not a good idea when the decisions aren’t good. I would rather people change their minds a lot so long as they are moving in the right direction.

Dayra.7405:

Yeah I must say: Big Gratz to SFR for your “winning strategy” last week.
You now do more minus in T2 than we do in T1

Keep dreaming
even if we aren’t getting enough points to get back to T1 this week, look how bad you guys doing in T1 lol

Well im a bit sad about the “non-reset”. Would have been great to fight against the best servers to learn something

Sensible decision, would of been nice to play some new servers, but a lot of them would of been mis-matches.

The people complaining about Anets decision making, you do realise they have listened to the majority of the WvW players on this forum? Thats why its been changed back to the original scores……….Right move Anet.

Aww crap were playing VS again

Arcadio.6875:

pot.6805:

Anet is way too indecisive. Regardless of the merits of a reset or not, at least stick by your decisions!

Sticking by your decisions is not a good idea when the decisions aren’t good. I would rather people change their minds a lot so long as they are moving in the right direction.

Highly debateable if Anet is moving WvW as a whole anywhere near the right direction. But I hear what you are saying.

Thanks for the update Habib. One thing I will say though … I would still highly consider continuing to review the formula used to calculate ratings and think about increasing the volatility. Now that free transfers are closed, large movements of active WvW players is essentially over. This means that some servers that could be relatively competive in tiers above, or below, their existing tier, can get locked into the same tier for a long period of time. We already started to see negative sentiment from some players after being stuck in the same match week after week, and this was well before free transfers closed. Now, stale matchups will become even more prevalent.

You have the data. I think that a balance can be found that creates a bit more deviation in matchups but that also doesn’t result in regular score blow outs week in and week out. The end result would likely be greater fun factor on the whole over the long term.

Hhahaha what a joke xD

They are a “pignoufs”.

Going back on a major change, which probably changed how many people played the entire week, one day before it takes effect, without any real major changes having happened, is really poor leadership. Indecisiveness is the only thing worse than making a poor decision.

While the outcome of this change is better for me personally, it leaves me with a feeling that the people making these decisions have no kittening clue what they are on about and make rash decisions based on whims. This is not the way to build respect and trust with your community on a long term basis.

It is nice that Anet listened to all the people who complained that the ranking were reset, but…………..It really does feel like they arent planning things out on their end.

Sure, you need to see how things go after the free transfers were removed and populations settled down a bit. However, why wouldnt you wait for that before doing a reset in the first place?

Yay for no reset!

even within guilds, people have preference on this change. Personally happy Arena-net listened to feedback & did not go through with it mainly due to the duration of 1 week matches. Can’t imagine demolishing and demoralizing lower tier servers in that manner for months. All "novelty’ of fighting new groups etc would have worn off once you face the constant barrage of a "coverage’ server with many WvW guilds.

That the cancellation is announced only 1 day before this week is MUCH BETTER than the 4 day ahead announcement of the reset last week. This week I don’t see much harm, but last week it destroyed some of the matches as some servers stopped playing for win (to have a better position to win points in a lower tier).

I lol’ed thinking about all servers calculation to avoid VS next week.

Really interesting….
I wasn’t really fussed either way, but I am now really happy that we wont have a couple of weeks of awful one-sided match-ups that it was looking like were going to happen.

Thank you for the update. I appreciate the advanced warning of a potential reset and that you continued to monitor the situation. Sounds like cancelling the reset is the way to go. It’s much better to let it run its course if you think the outcome will be better. You can always shake things up later, if necessary.

I’m posting because I think ANet deserves some support given the absolutely irrational kvetching that goes on whenever they decide to do anything. And I do mean ANYTHING.

Thank god. Thank you Anet for listening to your hardcore WvW players and making a sensible decision and preserving the relatively balanced match-ups we have right now.

Kingface.9781:

I lol’ed thinking about all servers calculation to avoid VS next week.

Yeah looks like we have to enjoy them for another week.
But better loosing with nice fights against Visu and Deso again, than being bored against Underworld and Baruch instead.

even if ratings dont get reset the math needs to change.

my server blackgate NA for example. we are in t2. we have significant ratings over everyone else who is in t2. the other factions in t2 are decent quality…. but we beat them week in and week out.

shouldnt we move up in ranking? according to the system which apparently works now, the answer is NO

no matter what happens in t1 ( as long as it isnt a blowout) all t1 factions will remain at higher rating…. look at the scores now, the losing faction is GAINING RATING.

the average rating in t1 is somewhere around 2160

blackgate LOSES rating for a SIGNIFICANT win in tier 2.

throughout the history of matchups the only way matchups significantly changed was due to direct player involvement. players “bandwagoning” off a server that was losing was the only way the server would drop rating. now that free transfers are over NA bracket will be very stagnant after about 2 matchups. kaineng is the only wild card. they will most likely move up to t2 with us because of player transfers that happened before free transfers was over.

my prediction: in 3 months guild wars 2 will have had many tiers with the same matchups lasting for months and months.

WE WANTED ratings reset and a new math system for the change…. but we would have liked 1 day matchups for 1 week to shuffle the rankings faster.

this is an inappropriate response to player complaints. we need changes to glicko, just not too major of a change, and a reset probably would have been acceptable with 1 day matches.

scrapping the entire idea because of short term negative effects is not a good long term strategy. in 3 months when factions havent moved up or down a tier in 1-2 months youll hear of complaints of stagnation …. people will get bored, too bored to complain in forums and instead theyll simply slowly stop playing.

TL DR
should have kept the changes but made 1 day matchups for a week to help the ratings to settle faster.

Hats off Habib for listening to the community man, great stuff!

Very nice. Good that you are always evaluating how things would work the best and you aren’t even afraid to revert your decisions when situations change.

Thanks for listening on our feedback

Yeah, that was… unexpected, to say the least.

But to think what a mess ladder would be next week or two after reset… Not the situation you want to put servers in that far into the WvW history. Even if it could result in more balanced ladder after it would have stabilized.

Anyway, couldn’t help myself but chuckle at these metagamers who tried to be strategic by throwing fight whole last week in an attempt to exploit reset consequences.

I think this is the right decision. Hats off for considering the community’s concern on this one.

After things settle you might want to consider tweaking the formulas so there is more movement in the rankings though. Since populations are going to be (relatively) locked, there is going to be very little movement in the ranks and it might get a bit boring fighting the same server 4 or 5 weeks in a row. That is already happening in the lower ranks.

I hope anet is also listening to us about the culling system. Any update on a revert?

As for the match-ups, I think most people would agree that we want even match-ups but we do not want to continuously play the same servers. I suggest you implement one of two solutions:
1. The winner moves up, loser moves down model. That way only the top 2 and bottom top 2 servers play the same server for more than 1 week in a row.
2. Keep the same system as today, and add logic that says if 2 servers have played more than 2 weeks in a row, they either move up a tier or down a tier.

Again, the goal is to keep match-ups fresh.

I am glad resets are not happening. All though some might think it would have been good. Those who have played on either side of a week of a landslide win know it is not really fun for anyone. Winning side has no one to fight and nothing to retake and losing side does not even bother to play for a week.

Now a suggestion if tier changes become stagnant. Would be to move the winning server up 1 tier and the losing server down 1 tier. Just for variety.

Rested Fox.2560:

even if ratings dont get reset the math needs to change.

my server blackgate NA for example. we are in t2. we have significant ratings over everyone else who is in t2. the other factions in t2 are decent quality…. but we beat them week in and week out.

shouldnt we move up in ranking? according to the system which apparently works now, the answer is NO

no matter what happens in t1 ( as long as it isnt a blowout) all t1 factions will remain at higher rating…. look at the scores now, the losing faction is GAINING RATING.

the average rating in t1 is somewhere around 2160

blackgate LOSES rating for a SIGNIFICANT win in tier 2.

throughout the history of matchups the only way matchups significantly changed was due to direct player involvement. players “bandwagoning” off a server that was losing was the only way the server would drop rating. now that free transfers are over NA bracket will be very stagnant after about 2 matchups. kaineng is the only wild card. they will most likely move up to t2 with us because of player transfers that happened before free transfers was over.

my prediction: in 3 months guild wars 2 will have had many tiers with the same matchups lasting for months and months.

WE WANTED ratings reset and a new math system for the change…. but we would have liked 1 day matchups for 1 week to shuffle the rankings faster.

this is an inappropriate response to player complaints. we need changes to glicko, just not too major of a change, and a reset probably would have been acceptable with 1 day matches.

scrapping the entire idea because of short term negative effects is not a good long term strategy. in 3 months when factions havent moved up or down a tier in 1-2 months youll hear of complaints of stagnation …. people will get bored, too bored to complain in forums and instead theyll simply slowly stop playing.

TL DR
should have kept the changes but made 1 day matchups for a week to help the ratings to settle faster.

If you think that any system of ratings is going to prevent stagnant matches, you’re wrong.

The fact is there’s only so many servers, and there are even less that should be matched against you.

We don’t want blowouts, nobody does.
The compromise is that, if you want balanced matches, it’s going to be against the same servers every week. I would settle in and get used to your opponents over the next few weeks, because when your server finds its home in tiers, it’s gonna be hanging around.

Rested Fox.2560:

even if ratings dont get reset the math needs to change.

my server blackgate NA for example. we are in t2. we have significant ratings over everyone else who is in t2. the other factions in t2 are decent quality…. but we beat them week in and week out.

shouldnt we move up in ranking? according to the system which apparently works now, the answer is NO

no matter what happens in t1 ( as long as it isnt a blowout) all t1 factions will remain at higher rating…. look at the scores now, the losing faction is GAINING RATING.

the average rating in t1 is somewhere around 2160

blackgate LOSES rating for a SIGNIFICANT win in tier 2.

throughout the history of matchups the only way matchups significantly changed was due to direct player involvement. players “bandwagoning” off a server that was losing was the only way the server would drop rating. now that free transfers are over NA bracket will be very stagnant after about 2 matchups. kaineng is the only wild card. they will most likely move up to t2 with us because of player transfers that happened before free transfers was over.

my prediction: in 3 months guild wars 2 will have had many tiers with the same matchups lasting for months and months.

WE WANTED ratings reset and a new math system for the change…. but we would have liked 1 day matchups for 1 week to shuffle the rankings faster.

this is an inappropriate response to player complaints. we need changes to glicko, just not too major of a change, and a reset probably would have been acceptable with 1 day matches.

scrapping the entire idea because of short term negative effects is not a good long term strategy. in 3 months when factions havent moved up or down a tier in 1-2 months youll hear of complaints of stagnation …. people will get bored, too bored to complain in forums and instead theyll simply slowly stop playing.

TL DR
should have kept the changes but made 1 day matchups for a week to help the ratings to settle faster.

BG has already been in T1 a couple of times and failed to keep its position there. BG has placed 3rd in T1 every week it has been there except for maybe 1 week a long time ago. I’d say the system is working as intended.

Good decision!

Static tiers are no fun, but resetting the ladder and having then lowest tier servers going to tier #1 in EU and some top tier worlds dropping to middle or low tiers would have lead to many weeks of very uneven matches.

I would recommend Anet developers openly discuss ideas about possible changes to the ranking system, before implementing them, with the community.

Now it seems it is one more week of Visu vs Deso vs Elona in euro tier #1. Fight goes on!

Deniara / Ayna

Least the messup is avoided… All they need to do now is boost volatility a little more so that matchups aren’t gonna become stale. just 50-75% volatility would already be enough, it should avoid ppl to bounce up several tiers at once only to drop afterwards.

pot.6805:

Anet is way too indecisive. Regardless of the merits of a reset or not, at least stick by your decisions!

Why? Should any company not pay attention to, listen to, and consider the information provided to them by their clients, the people actually effected by their actions?

Frankly ANET did what I would have wanted them to do. They tested, admitted they were likely not going to achieve anything different and changed their decision. /clap to them for being strong enough to admit it and not worry about someone thinking their indecisive.

I still think there should be a ratings reset… a complete one, with random tiers for the next week, and one-day matches for a while. But not until the major WvW changes that we now expect to come in the March update.

EnRohbi.2187:

If you think that any system of ratings is going to prevent stagnant matches, you’re wrong.

The fact is there’s only so many servers, and there are even less that should be matched against you.

We don’t want blowouts, nobody does.
The compromise is that, if you want balanced matches, it’s going to be against the same servers every week. I would settle in and get used to your opponents over the next few weeks, because when your server finds its home in tiers, it’s gonna be hanging around.

I’m going to use my server, Devona’s Rest, as an example. We had a mass exodus off of DR and currently DR is in T5 but in reality it is more of a T7 or T8 server. The servers below us are so evenly matched that they are trading wins and none of them can win by a significant enough amount to push DR down any time soon.

Under the current system it is very possible for three weaker servers to play in a higher bracket than three stronger servers below them because the three weaker servers are evenly matched and the three stronger servers are evenly matched. And that can go on for weeks and weeks and weeks.

Habib Loew.6239:

Update 2/7/2013:

We’ve been keeping a very close watch on this week’s matchups and, despite our concerns regarding the recent population shifts, it seems that many of the games are quite competitive. At the same time we’ve been evaluating some possible changes to the math we use to calculate ratings. After examining a number of new methodologies for weighting the outcomes of matches we have found that our existing formulas already do pretty much what we want them to do. Certainly none of the candidates that we tried yielded better results.

In light of the strong community response to the idea of a WvW ratings reset, the results of our ratings formula investigations, and our data on the current matchups we have decided not to reset the WvW ratings at this time. All existing WvW ratings will be preserved and the rating calculation methodology will remain unchanged. Any existing mismatches should be corrected by the system in relatively short order. Now that there is less volatility in the player base for each world we expect the quality of matches to improve more quickly. This is both because the rating system is operating in a less unpredictable environment and because more stable teams tend to produce better results.

Thank you all for your feedback on this matter, and for your patience while we explored the various options. The community response was a key element in our decision making process.

This update has also been added to the OP.

So basically the games that aren’t competitive can go screw them selves thank you Anet, always screwing the smaller populated servers.

fishergrip.4082:

BG has already been in T1 a couple of times and failed to keep its position there. BG has placed 3rd in T1 every week it has been there except for maybe 1 week a long time ago. I’d say the system is working as intended.

so placing third means a faction should move down? i agree.

logically then….

placing first should also mean a faction moves up.

currently the only method for moving up from t2 to t1 is a blowout of some sort in t1 or t2. this only happened because player transfers were free.

take a look at SoR. we consistently beat them. yet they are solidly in t1 because they happened to be in the right spot when SBI imploded and SoR earned a tonne of rating from them. the TRUE ranking could be argued to currently be JQ first then BG then SoR. but we’ll never see that because we’ll never get out of t2.

if you think BG doesnt deserve some time in t1, then neither does SoR, and youve got a problem because t1 matchup needs 3 factions.

Habib Loew.6239:

…we have decided not to reset the WvW ratings at this time.

So the weekly reset is happening tomorrow using the old formula and the current ratings?

Rested Fox.2560:

but we’ll never see that because we’ll never get out of t2.

Blackgate was in tier 1 for THREE WEEKS since New Years.
What are you talking about?

You came in third every time and lost your place.

YESS

well JQ right now was 510 potential points vs 150 vs 50 and we are tier 1 wvw.

If ranks were reset, we woulda been dropped to tier4. This made no sense as we are OWNING. Im glad they arent reset. JQ KINGS

Habib Loew.6239:

Update 2/7/2013:

We’ve been keeping a very close watch on this week’s matchups and, despite our concerns regarding the recent population shifts, it seems that many of the games are quite competitive. At the same time we’ve been evaluating some possible changes to the math we use to calculate ratings. After examining a number of new methodologies for weighting the outcomes of matches we have found that our existing formulas already do pretty much what we want them to do. Certainly none of the candidates that we tried yielded better results.

In light of the strong community response to the idea of a WvW ratings reset, the results of our ratings formula investigations, and our data on the current matchups we have decided not to reset the WvW ratings at this time. All existing WvW ratings will be preserved and the rating calculation methodology will remain unchanged. Any existing mismatches should be corrected by the system in relatively short order. Now that there is less volatility in the player base for each world we expect the quality of matches to improve more quickly. This is both because the rating system is operating in a less unpredictable environment and because more stable teams tend to produce better results.

Thank you all for your feedback on this matter, and for your patience while we explored the various options. The community response was a key element in our decision making process.

This update has also been added to the OP.

Thank you. This is definitely the best course of action with the current NA rankings.

Rested Fox.2560:

fishergrip.4082:

BG has already been in T1 a couple of times and failed to keep its position there. BG has placed 3rd in T1 every week it has been there except for maybe 1 week a long time ago. I’d say the system is working as intended.

so placing third means a faction should move down? i agree.

logically then….

placing first should also mean a faction moves up.

currently the only method for moving up from t2 to t1 is a blowout of some sort in t1 or t2. this only happened because player transfers were free.

take a look at SoR. we consistently beat them. yet they are solidly in t1 because they happened to be in the right spot when SBI imploded and SoR earned a tonne of rating from them. the TRUE ranking could be argued to currently be JQ first then BG then SoR. but we’ll never see that because we’ll never get out of t2.

if you think BG doesnt deserve some time in t1, then neither does SoR, and youve got a problem because t1 matchup needs 3 factions.

As someone who is on Blackgate, I think you have the wrong idea. We’ve had some time in tier 1, maybe not as much as anyone would prefer, but it’s time none the less. SoR may have gotten their faster than we did because SBI wasn’t pulling a lot of weight, but they’re staying because they’re stronger than when we fought them and kept the scores close. Kudos to them, they deserve it.

Yes, the math makes little sense some times and yes it should change, but as of now, we’ll only deserve to be in tier one after we go through Kaineng and Tarnished coast to get there.

I welcome the non-reset decision. Hats off to Anet for listening to the community. ;D

I would suggest that Anet implement my suggestion for the new system. I had spend some time thinking about this and this is the best system I came up with:

1) Bi-Daily match score tally. So every 2 days servers might move up or down a tier.

2) Winner server moves up a tier. Loser server moves down a tier.

3) For playoffs/championships, total annual scores are rallied up. The playoff/championship ranking is determined by annual total score, not current rank. So the top 9 teams with the highest annual scores enter the playoffs for 2 rounds. (1vs8v9, 2vs6vs7, 3vs4vs5). The winners of 1st round moves to round 2.

4) Your servers get bonus annual points for winning in a higher tier (e.g. 30k for tier 1, 15k for tier 2, 7.5k for tier 3). You get a smaller bonus for being 2nd place in a tier(e.g. 10k for tier 1, 5k for tier2, 2.5k for tier 3). No bonus for the loser. This means you cannot lose on purpose to pick on smaller servers. You also want to stay in a higher tier for the higher bonuses.

-This means that everyday in wvw is important. Tiers might be changed very quickly.
-Server will no longer be stuck in the wrong tier (either too high or too low) for weeks.
-Servers will face new opponents all the time. This makes wvw more interesting.
-When playoff/championship happens, it is determined by the total annual score. What that means is that you always want to get as many points as possible. But at the same time as you win, you will face harder and harder opponents. So the only way to get ahead is to beat the opponents of your level.

Thank you for taking the time to approach this issue sensibly. This is the first good move by Anet in regards to WvW in months. Please continue to apply these sort of community influenced options into your decision making process in the future.

Even though I am still highly disappointed by the actions taken on WvW as a whole, I can at least give you credit for not making a bad situation worse. I sincerely hope that another month+ of delays will yield the results you hope for in WvW. What is truly scary is that we don’t even know what the new developments are, or if we even want them. Help!

fishergrip.4082:

Rested Fox.2560:

even if ratings dont get reset the math needs to change.

my server blackgate NA for example. we are in t2. we have significant ratings over everyone else who is in t2. the other factions in t2 are decent quality…. but we beat them week in and week out.

shouldnt we move up in ranking? according to the system which apparently works now, the answer is NO

no matter what happens in t1 ( as long as it isnt a blowout) all t1 factions will remain at higher rating…. look at the scores now, the losing faction is GAINING RATING.

the average rating in t1 is somewhere around 2160

blackgate LOSES rating for a SIGNIFICANT win in tier 2.

throughout the history of matchups the only way matchups significantly changed was due to direct player involvement. players “bandwagoning” off a server that was losing was the only way the server would drop rating. now that free transfers are over NA bracket will be very stagnant after about 2 matchups. kaineng is the only wild card. they will most likely move up to t2 with us because of player transfers that happened before free transfers was over.

my prediction: in 3 months guild wars 2 will have had many tiers with the same matchups lasting for months and months.

WE WANTED ratings reset and a new math system for the change…. but we would have liked 1 day matchups for 1 week to shuffle the rankings faster.

this is an inappropriate response to player complaints. we need changes to glicko, just not too major of a change, and a reset probably would have been acceptable with 1 day matches.

scrapping the entire idea because of short term negative effects is not a good long term strategy. in 3 months when factions havent moved up or down a tier in 1-2 months youll hear of complaints of stagnation …. people will get bored, too bored to complain in forums and instead theyll simply slowly stop playing.

TL DR
should have kept the changes but made 1 day matchups for a week to help the ratings to settle faster.

BG has already been in T1 a couple of times and failed to keep its position there. BG has placed 3rd in T1 every week it has been there except for maybe 1 week a long time ago. I’d say the system is working as intended.

And BG spanked SoR for months and SoR is in T1 coming in 3rd so yeah it seems to be working great!

It works so well that’s how they should run the NFL, a team loses an entire season and goes to the playoffs

EnRohbi.2187:

Rested Fox.2560:

but we’ll never see that because we’ll never get out of t2.

Blackgate was in tier 1 for THREE WEEKS since New Years.
What are you talking about?

You came in third every time and lost your place.

The point people are making is that with the current rating formula, one could argue that you have to win by too much, or lose by too much, to move up, or down to another tier. Thus my argument that the formula could use a tweak to increase volatility, which I think would address this issue without creating many, if any, blow out matches.

The first page of this thread is like a reading comprehension roller coaster. One person is capable of reading the title of the thread, (not even the content of the first post), and the next is whining about how a reset would kill the game and to please reconsider. (essentially saying “a reset would kill the game, please do a reset”) Back and forth through the whole page.

It’s actually pretty amusing once you get past how sad it is that people are so quick to complain that they can’t even read the full title of the thread before posting…

Liquid.9672:

EnRohbi.2187:

Rested Fox.2560:

but we’ll never see that because we’ll never get out of t2.

Blackgate was in tier 1 for THREE WEEKS since New Years.
What are you talking about?

You came in third every time and lost your place.

The point people are making is that with the current rating formula, one could argue that you have to win by too much, or lose by too much, to move up, or down to another tier. Thus my argument that the formula could use a tweak to increase volatility, which I think would address this issue without creating many, if any, blow out matches.

I don’t necessarily think a change in the math to make tiers more volatiles would be a bad thing. But it should be a change that’s subtle enough to only be applicable when a server is in freefall or spiking due to transfers.

The point I’ve been trying to make is that, because of the number of servers, and the huge difference between different server’s wvw effectiveness, there are really only a very limited number of combinations of matches that would be fair for everyone, if there are any at all.

Unless servers balance out a lot more between each other, and there becomes less of a plummet of skill between tiers, then having balanced matches is always going to come at the cost of stagnant matches.

Hopefully with home servers being a little more permanent with paid transfers introduced, the lower tier servers will begin building up a better wvw population that they can rely on staying, and the tiers will become closer. If such a day comes, I will whole-heartedly support a drastic overhaul to the ratings match to create more volatile matches. But until then, with the state of each server as it is now, I like that the system keeps my server in a tier with equal servers for as long as possible.

Thank you, ArenaNet.

Sincerely,

all of AoN.

I’ll be honest, I was kind of looking forwards to Maguuma being shot down to T8 because of Kaineng >.> I’m a horrible person, I know.

And us Yak’s Benders were so looking forward to giving SoR & SoS a kitten good thrashing.

Set server ratings to:
1500+((Current Rating – 1500)*0.5)

This will help fix the ratings problems/gaps caused by mass transfers while keeping our tiers and of course avoiding several rounds of blowouts. The 0.5 can of course be changed to whatever ANet thinks will work best.

Please.

Dayra.7405:

ilmau.9781:

This is not a serius company behavor…they reset they dont reset… It s ridiculous.

Yeah I must say: Big Gratz to SFR for your “winning strategy” last week.
You now do more minus in T2 than we do in T1

@MrAdri: Have a look a the already updated http://mos.millenium.org/matchups#EU

yeah lol

The strategy was good, and all went as planned!
It s not easy to have a whole server work out a strategy and apply it together as we did, but we did it very well, now the rules changed once again (not our fault there!)