Guild Wars 2

The way i see it is this:

The Searing was genocide that lasted one day (or whatever).

The Foefire was an indiscriminate explosion that lasted 200+ years.

The comparisons for the Searing are many: Spanish Inquisition, Jewish Holocaust, etc… basically any such scorched earth war ever waged.

But the Foefire has only two comparisons: Hiroshima & Nagasaki, and Chernobyl.

Finally, there is a saying among historians: History is written by the Winners.

The Charr won so it’s their story to tell. I view Anet’s “disregard for the lore” to be nothing else than the Charr’s own lack of integrity.

Those of us who played the original, those of us who “were there”, we know the truth and it’s up to us to tell it how it really was.

I think humans are at a point where they will survive and prosper, or fall apart and fade into oblivion. It can go either way for them right now.

Humans are not dieing. For all their posturing, the Charr can’t even handle a bunch of leftover humans waging their guerilla war against the murderer occupying their land, and are already hard-pressed by ogres, of all people. Humans at least have lots of fertile lands left, Charr have… wasteland 1, 2 and 3, all burned and useless for most farming. But of course writers seem to love the furballs, so they get written as good despite that.

Before I started playing I thought I’d hate the Asuras – tinker gnomes revisited, with creepier appearance. As it is I like them, they are very well done and fun to interact with. Sort of cuddly cute with a good and funny mad scientist side.

Charr on the other hand… whenever I think I found something to like them the game rubs my nose into the next tidbit that makes me realize they are a bunch of warmongering racist murderers. Meatoberfest and Cowtapult were good, then wham – I am whipping prisoners to motivate them to work harder as a task for a heart.

I wish there was at least some more attention to details in their quests, so that when you help them as a human (and save their butts) they acknowledge that, and stop with the whole arrogant boasting about “Mice”.

As it is I hope the next expansion lets us beat the dragons, then kick Charr out of Ascalon and restore the lands they have ruined and turned into poisoned wastelands. I am sure the Sylvari and Asura can help with that, and the Norn already are better “large, fun and fight loving people who drink and fight well” people than the charr.

Humans certainly don’t seem like a declining race. If this was the writer’s intention it’s not been communicated very well at all. Certainly human society is in decline, with only two of their nations* remaining in the small corner of Tyria that we get to explore during the launch version, but there were other human lands further afield and maybe even lands that we never even got to hear mention of let alone visit.

Then again humanity has been written a more than a little unfairly in Tyria by Arenanet. Humans are equally as smart as the Asura if provided with the proper education and tools, but are often written off as bumpkins or buffoons. I think the temptation of a fantasy realm is to show all the things that do not exist as being better than humans and the real world, when really our race as a whole is much more advanced than the writing team give us credit for.

Where are the human geniuses? Where are the philosophers, the philanthropists, the industrialists and the engineers? Where are the inventors of the teleporters once used in Ascalon and Elona well before the time of the Asura. Where are the explorers and fearless merchants who would sell their sisters for 250e and a rare minipet? :P

Humans aren’t as in decline as the lore would have you believe, but they aren’t getting a fair writeup. The release of GW2 seems to be: the Charr and Sylvari show. Maybe things will change in further expansions.

*Ebonhawke isn’t part of Kryta. They are allies with Queen Jennah but they are a separate entity.

SwickHobo.5096:

I’m not a massive lore buff or anything but it seems to me that human’s have little to no outcome on the state of the world. Aside from Logan (and yourself of course) there don’t seem to be any other figure head “Humans”. Every personal story quest lv 30+ of course is run by someone of a different race. There’s Forgal, for Vigil, and gixx for for the priory. Haven’t ran whispers yet tho to be fair, not sure if there’s a human there. Then of course Trahearne. Humans just don’t seem to be very important. Did anyone else feel like this?

Humans lost the wars because Anet hates humans and loves char for some reason.

GG humans, better luck in GW3 if they show up.

If we’re going to metathink it, it’s because ANet wanted to make the charr playable, and they didn’t want to have to extend the map to the far north to give them a territory to play in.

No sequel will be without a playable human race.

Lets put decline into perspective.

250 years ago the Charr were strong enough to almost conquer Tyria. They threatened to take Kryta and might well have succeeded if the Krytans hadn’t found unexpected – and treacherous – allies in the Mursaat. With the Searing the Charr all but destroyed Ascalon, and ran over it’s burning remains to threaten Tyria’s greatest civilization of that time to the point were they put up a defense that destroyed both Orr as well as the Char armies threatening it. The Charr were left weakened enough to be driven out of Ascalon and back behind the remains of the Great Wall they had destroyed earlier, by the remaining Ascalons, who’s Ebon Vanguard, combined with the Flameseeker heroes, was able to threaten the Charr right at their own doorstep in the Northlands.

While the remnants of the Ascalons and the Charr were locked into an eternal war, Kryta survived a civil war and struggled back to it’s feet and grew.

I just want GW2 humans turn into humans of the real life (us) eventually.

I see GW2 humans now as medievals who still believe in god and are still afraid of things happening around themselves since they can’t understand all of it. I hope they eventually abandon gods and start thinking instead with science and stuff and in the process claim their place as the dominant species

It’s funny, really – I’m one of the first to avoid playing a human in a MMO if I can help it, though they have the most diverse and intriguing lore as far as I’m concerned. It may not be reflected very well in the game itself, but it’s there if you dig beneath the surface.

I hope the lore team take more care to present ever race in a fair and consistent manner and don’t let bias or favouritism steer dictate the future lore. I’m fine with humanity being in a poor position…but I’m not fine with them getting only a few scraps of lore or perks to make up for it.

Why are they so meek and bested at every turn by the younger races? It makes sense in some respects, but at almost every front? It’s a little silly. An excellent example is Orr – there was so much potential there for a human scholar to be involved as a major character, considering that much of the relevant information is likely to be locked away in dusty human tomes. Instead we got Trahearne.

Human domination of Tyria is certainly in decline (and is probably dead, with the Asura, Norn, Charr and Sylvari on the scene), but is the human race dying? I think not. There’s still a sizable population in Kryta, and aside from the centaurs, the largest threat to Kryta comes from its own internal corruption. If they can fix that (and the Human personal storyline and CM dungeon suggests they do), the humans will be free to once more turn their attention outwards and build a greater role for themselves in Tyria.

We also don’t know what the state of humanity is like in Cantha and Elona. I imagine they’d be pretty miserable over in Elona with Joko in charge (who’s probably demanding regular sacrifices and tribute from them so he can build his armies to battle Kralkatorrik’s minions), but if the Canthan Empire had grown powerful enough to evict all non-humans from the continent, it’s a safe bet that their military must be incredibly powerful. All it needs is for one Emperor to decide that Cantha must now rule the world. In fact, I have a sneaking suspicion that the Canthans will be the ENEMY in a Canthan expansion, with their armies arriving in Tyria and attempting to conquer the other races/nations. (Perhaps the Emperor has fallen under the sway of a Dragon, or even found a way to bend one to his bidding?)

Essarious Quw.8946:

Where are the human geniuses? Where are the philosophers, the philanthropists, the industrialists and the engineers? Where are the inventors of the teleporters once used in Ascalon and Elona well before the time of the Asura.

They all joined the Priory.

In just about every fantasy setting, there is one race that is old, majestic, powerful, and is slowly diminishing to the younger races. In Tolkien’s Middle Earth, the elves were once dominant, but left to the west. Likewise, in the Dungeons and Dragons Forgotten Reams setting, the elves relinquished most of their lands to the humans. In GWII, this role is played by the humans.
Amusingly enough, the young, inquisitive race that humans usually fill is actually the Sylvari, who are more or less GWII’s elves.

It hooks me in that the human race are slowly dying, they are the hidden in the remaining human civilized city Divinity’s Reach They aren’t too involved in the story line and don’t show any major participation in Tyria but they bring sprinkles of inspiration & heroism to the game.

@Zaxares: I get the impression that the centaurs have been as much of a problem as they have been because of the corruption, actually. The Seraph have been having trouble holding the line because they’re underfunded while the Ministry Guard is overfunded and Caudecus and his allies have money to burn, there’s at least one storyline that ties Caudecus to deliberately sabotaging the Seraph to make Jennah look bad, and there are storylines tying the bandits to the Ministry… and there are events that show the bandits supplying the centaurs. It’s basically the same story as the Star Wars prequels – a corrupt politician manufacturing crises to undermine the regime he’s trying to replace.

Yeah, that’s definitely something to consider as well. Not to mention that there’s also a centaur historian in Lion’s Arch who’s gloomily pessimistic about the chances for his race, stating that the main reason the centaurs were doing so well against the humans was because Kryta was fighting a war on two fronts; against them, and against the charr. Now that the humans and charr have signed a ceasefire, Kryta is free to turn all of its attentions to the centaurs, and the arrival of new war technology like tanks and massed artillery strikes (and possibly allied charr soldiers) means the centaurs won’t be able to achieve the same kind of successes they had before.

Depending on how you interpret events, too, it also seems as if Harathi Hinterlands ends with the centaur war leader being slain and the centaurs being driven out of Kryta entirely. Certainly, that’s the sort of chatter you get from the Seraph NPCs in the short time before the events reset and Kingsgate Camp gets filled with centaurs again. From a lore perspective, however, we really have to assume that certain events don’t repeat, certainly not with the regularity they do in game.

Zaxares.5419:

In fact, I have a sneaking suspicion that the Canthans will be the ENEMY in a Canthan expansion, with their armies arriving in Tyria and attempting to conquer the other races/nations. (Perhaps the Emperor has fallen under the sway of a Dragon, or even found a way to bend one to his bidding?)

This. This looks good. GW Factions even without the rest of GW1 is still my favorite MMO, and I’ve been aching for the Canthan expansion to this game since about a year ago (yes, I know the maths here). But this would be epic. Maybe this is how they’ll introduce Tengu, you can play displaced ones trying to fight their way back into their ancestral homes. Maybe the remaining Luxons have finally returned to the sea, and make it to Tyria to petition for aid against the dragon corrupted ministry. So exciting! So many possibilities!

You people do realize that Elona is under control of Kralkatorrik and Palawa Joko right?
And the human population is almost if not nearly decimated in Elona.

Cantha is ruled by a tyrannical racist Emperor that exiled non human races.

Humans used to populate almost every corner of Tyria (the world) and now they’re reduced to just Divinity’s Reach and Ebonhawke with no word from Cantha or Elona.

The Order of Whispers is actually led by a chick(Riel Darkwater). But naturally since she keeps her identity a secret you likely won’t ever know that if you don’t actually roll with that order. There’s also a Human dude that represents the order. His name is Doarn or something. But I do wish Trahearne wasn’t here. He’s probably the most annoying and stupid NPC we are burdened to play with and they forcibly shove him in with us for at least half of the story quest. The NPCs you killed off at Claw Island were ALL much more interesting and fun to be around. You killed off the guy that was voiced by Campbell from Metal Gear Solid and replaced him with this kitten Why? I also liked Sieran. She had character and was amusing. Trahearne on the other hand may as well be a cardboard cutout. He’s as boring as a robot and no smarter than your average dog.

My problem with the Charr is thus: they are fake.

They are at best the forced construct of an unfolding lore that deparately needed to have them be the good guys now. The whole spirit of GW2 is this not-so-subtle moral tale on how we all need to get along and forget our past grudges. Why? Because the dragons are the bad guys now. The Charr used to be be the quintessential bad guys: brutish, ugly, feral…basically beasts who knew how to fight in formation. They were the primary enemy in GW1 Prophesies before the expansions came out.

Comparing the Foefire to the Searing is like comparing a housefire to an earthqauke. The Foefire, while tragic, only affected one city. Given the extreme hatred between these two races it doesn’t seem so surprising really. The Searing on the other hand, affected every single culture in Tyria. And in a very bad way. It opened the door for invasion of both Kryta and Orr by the Charr.

The Krytans had to turn to abject slavery under the White Mantle and the Mursaat to be saved annihilation by the Charr. It took years of civil war and death to oust the Mantle out, and the strife bled into Magumma and the Shiverpeaks as well. The land was in shambles after that, and they were the lucky ones.

When the Charr came marching on Orr after the Searing, the humans turned to the Vizier in desperation. Secretly he had been biding his time for such an opportunity and promptly used the Scepter of Orr in the Cataclysm to sink the entire continent to the bottom of the sea. Hey, at least he killed the Charr too. :/

And we don’t need to talk about Ascalon. So…one event made mad ghosts out of a city. The other changed the entire face of Tyria forever…in an ugly way. Two kingdoms dead and gone and one on the ropes. All because of, directly or indirectly, the Charr and the Searing.

It’s not a fair comparison.

Yet, even with all of that, my biggest gripe with the Charr is that they were conjured out of thin air. I’ll explain.

The Charr of GW1 were, as I mentioned, beastly and cruel. The only advanced social structures they could boast were a rudimentary caste system and some effective mass military tactics. Other than that they weren’t too far off the DNA path from the grawl.

The Charr of GW2 are rediculously different. They have these modern, steel-girded cities, advanced weapons of war, a finely-tuned army and social structure. They are marvels of modern engineering for goodness sake; 4-story tall motorcycles? What the heck is that? They went from communicating with grunts and rudimentary speech wearing loincloths in GW1 to being the champions of technology in GW2.

All in the span of 250 years…

That is some crazy-fast evolution. Meanwhile the Asura (the obvious engineer choice) are over there twiddling their thumbs making yet another Golem based on the original model. And now everyone is supposed to be all friendly and nice because the dragons are around. /facepalm

So, to me anyway, the Charr are the superficial construct of a storyline that desperately needed to make them be the good guys now. Hate to say it, because I really like a lot of the writing that went into both games, but it’s bad writing.

You might as well line up every human in Kryta and have Rytlock walk along them, slapping each one in the face and laughing gleefully as he carries Rurik’s stolen sword with him.

Oh…I didn’t make a Charr character if anyone was wondering.

Obsidian.1328:

The Charr of GW2 are rediculously different. They have these modern, steel-girded cities, advanced weapons of war, a finely-tuned army and social structure. They are marvels of modern engineering for goodness sake; 4-story tall motorcycles? What the heck is that? They went from communicating with grunts and rudimentary speech wearing loincloths in GW1 to being the champions of technology in GW2.

All in the span of 250 years…

That is some crazy-fast evolution.

To be fair, look at how far WE have come in 250 years. Back in the 17th century, most people still thought the world was flat, everybody got around on horses and wooden ships, it took 8 months to send a letter from Europe to South Africa, and medical treatments usually consisted of a good course of “bring out the leeches!”

Now, we have visited other planets, we have jet planes capable of flying several times faster than the speed of sound, we can send the entire contents of a library’s books in a single e-mail in less than an hour, and we can heal people by bombarding them with precisely calibrated amounts of radiation and are on the cusp of developing workable cybernetic limbs.

I do agree that it’s weird how the Charr have advanced so much while other races have more or less remained constant, however.

As for the Charr wreaking havoc across Ascalon, Kryta and Orr… I’m willing to lay most of the blame at the feet of the Shamans being goaded by the Titans (and behind them, Abaddon). Abaddon was the one who gave the Charr the Cauldron of Cataclysm that enabled them to cause the Searing, after all, and he was responsible for setting up the Jade Wind in Cantha as well, probably all failed efforts to bring about Nightfall earlier. Who’s to say that the average Charr was just caught up in the war and swept along, the same way many ordinary Germans were caught up in WWII’s Nazi movement?

@Zaxares “I do agree that it’s weird how the Charr have advanced so much while other races have more or less remained constant, however.”

^This. Yeah, that’s what I found odd too. It would be different if every race had advanced some. It didn’t have to be at the same pace, of course, but the others are more or less static. The Humans, Norn, and Asura all have bigger, more grandiose cities…but they are essential the same culturally and technologically as they were in GW1. The Sylvari are new and a non-factor. I suppose you could argue that it was because the Charr chose to shake off the shackles of religion that allowed them to advance so fast, but it still doesn’t add up. Like I said, a few degrees off from grawl.

It’s true Abaddon was the real power behind the Charr invasion(and other events). But it would be disingenuous to compare the Charr to ordinary Germans in WWII.

Germany got royally shafted by the Allied powers at the Treaty of Versailles after WWI, and technically they didn’t even start the Great War. They got stripped of their military, their colonies, and their self-respect. Then the depression hit. They were at rock bottom. And along comes this charismatic young Austrian who promises to give you back your dignity and then some. So they give him a shot, but they didn’t know he was a genocidal lunatic at the time.

The Charr, on the other hand, had always hated humans, ever since they moved into their territory and pushed them out of Ascalon country. But the Charr typically hated everything back then. They were born to kill and be killed. I would agree that without Abaddon’s help they would not have ever had the power to invade all of Tyria, or even only Ascalon. But that’s not to say they didn’t want to. They had been at constant war with Ascalon for as long as anyone can remember. That the Shaman’s found a way to get around Ascalon’s engineering might doesn’t mean they aren’t responsible. They wanted humans dead more than anything, the Titan’s just gave them the means to do so.

Pyre was the first, and maybe only, sympathetic Charr we meet in GW1. He provides our first good glimpse into Charr society and the beginnings of their civil war. But none of that really matters to me because by this time the writer’s had already decided on making the Charr a playable race in GW2. So they had to include a Charr example for the storyline, just like they did with Jora(Norn) and Vekk(Asura). Again, the Sylvari weren’t born yet. Eye of the North was a lot more GW2 than GW1 when it comes to lore.

Sorry for the rant, it’s stupid to get worked up about a game. It just really bugs me. I would have been happy if they relegated the Charr to “colorful npc” status like they do in GW2 with the Skritt and Quaggan. Or even made them elite “Branded” minions under Kralkatorik’s control. Besides, the Tengu deserved the opening act more than the Charr did.

Everytime I think about it I think of George Lucas in his film room cutting and taping film clips together in a desperate attempt to make all of his story-line threads meet up. Yeah, just like that South Park episode. XD

Didn’t work so well for him…most people saw through the artificially-connected lore.

I don’t see much indication that the Charr as a society have much negative feeling about the Searing, actually – at least not in regards to the people killed and enslaved. (I’m sure some individuals do.) I see more justifications and attempts to position themselves as somehow the true victims in the whole thing than any sense of regret.

I’m not convinced it wouldn’t happen again if those currently in power saw an advantage to mass destruction of civilians and the land itself again in the future.

Charr society has advanced a lot technologically and socially, but I don’t see a whole lot of evolution in moral thought. (Again, speaking on a societal level; individuals will differ.)

Obsidian.1328

Pyre was the first, and maybe only, sympathetic Charr we meet in GW1. He provides our first good glimpse into Charr society and the beginnings of their civil war.

I actually never liked Pyre. XD He was a ruthless, treacherous Charr who allied with the PC and the Ebon Vanguard so long as it served his purposes of battling the Flame Legion. He may have developed a sense of respect for the PC by the end of EotN, but he made it clear on multiple occasions that the only reason he didn’t attack and kill the PC once they’d freed his warband and killed Hierophant Burntsoul was because he knew the PC and their allies were too powerful to be confronted directly.

That said, I’m always wary of painting all members of a race with the same brush based solely on the impression we get from a few individuals. While we know the Charr live in a militaristic society, we can’t really know for certain if all Charr are ferocious and violent by nature, or whether such Charr simply naturally gravitate to the military roles, while Charr who are not so inclined fill the roles of artisans, merchants, fahrar-minders and farmers. After all, SOMEBODY has to fill those roles while the soldiers are on the frontlines, and you can’t always rely on (or trust) slaves to perform those duties.

Oh I didn’t like him either…for all the reasons you stated. “Sympathy” was probably not the right word to use, I was referring to Pyre in relation to the civil war and not his personality. And yes I generalized with the race. My ultimate point was not that all Charr are alike in their evil ways, but that they are all alike their savagery. The GW1 Charr wouldn’t have had artisans, merchants, farmers, etc. Maybe I don’t give them enough credit, but I always saw them as a grawl’s bigger brother.

Obsidian.1328:

My problem with the Charr is thus: they are fake.

They are at best the forced construct of an unfolding lore that deparately needed to have them be the good guys now. The whole spirit of GW2 is this not-so-subtle moral tale on how we all need to get along and forget our past grudges. Why? Because the dragons are the bad guys now. The Charr used to be be the quintessential bad guys: brutish, ugly, feral…basically beasts who knew how to fight in formation. They were the primary enemy in GW1 Prophesies before the expansions came out.

Comparing the Foefire to the Searing is like comparing a housefire to an earthqauke. The Foefire, while tragic, only affected one city. Given the extreme hatred between these two races it doesn’t seem so surprising really. The Searing on the other hand, affected every single culture in Tyria. And in a very bad way. It opened the door for invasion of both Kryta and Orr by the Charr.

The Krytans had to turn to abject slavery under the White Mantle and the Mursaat to be saved annihilation by the Charr. It took years of civil war and death to oust the Mantle out, and the strife bled into Magumma and the Shiverpeaks as well. The land was in shambles after that, and they were the lucky ones.

When the Charr came marching on Orr after the Searing, the humans turned to the Vizier in desperation. Secretly he had been biding his time for such an opportunity and promptly used the Scepter of Orr in the Cataclysm to sink the entire continent to the bottom of the sea. Hey, at least he killed the Charr too. :/

And we don’t need to talk about Ascalon. So…one event made mad ghosts out of a city. The other changed the entire face of Tyria forever…in an ugly way. Two kingdoms dead and gone and one on the ropes. All because of, directly or indirectly, the Charr and the Searing.

It’s not a fair comparison.

Yet, even with all of that, my biggest gripe with the Charr is that they were conjured out of thin air. I’ll explain.

The Charr of GW1 were, as I mentioned, beastly and cruel. The only advanced social structures they could boast were a rudimentary caste system and some effective mass military tactics. Other than that they weren’t too far off the DNA path from the grawl.

The Charr of GW2 are rediculously different. They have these modern, steel-girded cities, advanced weapons of war, a finely-tuned army and social structure. They are marvels of modern engineering for goodness sake; 4-story tall motorcycles? What the heck is that? They went from communicating with grunts and rudimentary speech wearing loincloths in GW1 to being the champions of technology in GW2.

All in the span of 250 years…

That is some crazy-fast evolution. Meanwhile the Asura (the obvious engineer choice) are over there twiddling their thumbs making yet another Golem based on the original model. And now everyone is supposed to be all friendly and nice because the dragons are around. /facepalm

So, to me anyway, the Charr are the superficial construct of a storyline that desperately needed to make them be the good guys now. Hate to say it, because I really like a lot of the writing that went into both games, but it’s bad writing.

You might as well line up every human in Kryta and have Rytlock walk along them, slapping each one in the face and laughing gleefully as he carries Rurik’s stolen sword with him.

Oh…I didn’t make a Charr character if anyone was wondering.

Very good post that covers most of why I dislike the Charr and will never make a Charr character.

Hopefully Anet reads this thread and takes in the feedback and maybe try to fix the whole Charr mess as they add new story content.

Zaxares.5419:

As for the Charr wreaking havoc across Ascalon, Kryta and Orr… I’m willing to lay most of the blame at the feet of the Shamans being goaded by the Titans (and behind them, Abaddon). …

The Charr were involved, freely and willingly. The germans you speak off have accepted their responsibility, if you compare with them there is no reason to not expect them to take responsibility for their actions.

I will never forgive the Charr. Althea? All those Ascalonians you saved from the cages that had been imprisoned for years? Throwing a little kid into an arena for fun and sports?

Disgusting, cruel creatures.

Gab Superstar.4059:

I will never forgive the Charr. Althea? All those Ascalonians you saved from the cages that had been imprisoned for years? Throwing a little kid into an arena for fun and sports?

Disgusting, cruel creatures.

To be fair (and I’m not much of a Charr fan myself, to be honest with you,) none of the Charr currently alive in the GW2 era had even been born yet when all that was happening.

Anakita Snakecharm.4360:

Gab Superstar.4059:

I will never forgive the Charr. Althea? All those Ascalonians you saved from the cages that had been imprisoned for years? Throwing a little kid into an arena for fun and sports?

Disgusting, cruel creatures.

To be fair (and I’m not much of a Charr fan myself, to be honest with you,) none of the Charr currently alive in the GW2 era had even been born yet when all that was happening.

Yes. That’s one very important thing to remember. The Charr of 250 years ago were vicious, savage creatures who showed no mercy to their enemies and glorified violence and bloodsport. But the Charr of today? While they’re undeniably still very militaristic and exult in war and fighting, they’re also a lot more civilised and open to peaceful relations with other races. Again, using us humans as examples, 250 years ago slavery was still an accepted institution in many countries. Cultures and societies can change a lot in a short period of time, and it’s not always fair to judge the people of today by the actions of their ancestors.

Mind you, that doesn’t mean I’ll be attending any negotiations with a Charr without a weapon at my side.

Zaxares.5419:

Anakita Snakecharm.4360:

Gab Superstar.4059:

I will never forgive the Charr. Althea? All those Ascalonians you saved from the cages that had been imprisoned for years? Throwing a little kid into an arena for fun and sports?

Disgusting, cruel creatures.

To be fair (and I’m not much of a Charr fan myself, to be honest with you,) none of the Charr currently alive in the GW2 era had even been born yet when all that was happening.

Yes. That’s one very important thing to remember. The Charr of 250 years ago were vicious, savage creatures who showed no mercy to their enemies and glorified violence and bloodsport. But the Charr of today? While they’re undeniably still very militaristic and exult in war and fighting, they’re also a lot more civilised and open to peaceful relations with other races. Again, using us humans as examples, 250 years ago slavery was still an accepted institution in many countries. Cultures and societies can change a lot in a short period of time, and it’s not always fair to judge the people of today by the actions of their ancestors.

Mind you, that doesn’t mean I’ll be attending any negotiations with a Charr without a weapon at my side.

And in real life people tend to be apologetic for stuff their ancestors did like slavery and genocide, they don’t glorify it and get hailed as heroes.

I can accept the fact that the Charr seem to be making moves toward a more peaceful relation towards the other races, but it seems there is a large dissonance within their own about it. I can also accept the fact that there are Charr who have assimilated well into the peaceful mindset of the other races. However, don’t doubt for a second that if the peace was broken, I would be standing on the front lines, defending Ebonhawke.

It’s because of this that I feel incorporating the entire Charr race into this new peaceful faction was a huge mistake by Arena Net. I feel that a smaller faction a’la EotN would allow for a richer and more interesting lore with the race, instead of what we have now, a Flame Legion that seems awfully marginalized.

As it stands now, I think dividing the Charr race would be an event too huge to be feasible, and slaying the puny Flame Legion has already bored me out.

I think people are forgetting the charr civil war. When that occurred, the charr were freed from the oppression of the Shaman Caste. What does that mean? Well, as one person said, they can’t wait for humans to cast off gods and become a technologically advanced race that uses science and reasoning to go forth. Is that not the story of the charr?
They were oppressed by the Shaman Caste which controlled everything in charr society. The shaman caste enjoyed war, oppressed females, and generally anything that did not need their magic. So once the Shaman Caste was overthrown, the charr could portray themselves as they truly are. Don’t hold all germans responsible for the holocaust. Sure, they have a responsibility to accept what happened and make reparations even if they don’t want to (same with modern Americans with respect to Native Americans and the genocide that occurred there). In a similar vein, the charr are coming into being as a race that has thrown off oppression and grown stronger because of it.

I honestly don’t understand all of the charr hate in the game. I played GW1 when it first came out and didn’t like the charr much at all either. Yet learning that what we fought in GW1 was the same thing that charr revolutionaries fought decades after the Great Destroyer’s defeat changed my opinion of them. Heck, even the names of the flame legion NPCs match the names of charr enemies in GW1. Charr are not inherently bad. It’s only been 250 years, which is enough time for technological advancement but as a culture they are similar (not the same). 250 years ago is 1762. The genocide of Native Americans took place a few decades after that, but today there is still oppression and racism towards them (just look at halloween costumes and the sports team known as the ‘Redskins’. And have you heard of what happens on reservations? Terrible. Popular culture today is blatantly racist towards them. But I digress). You think the charr are going to let go of being against humans that quickly? No. Humans also aren’t going to let go of hating charr that quickly either. (As a whole obviously, there have been humans and charr who got along.)

Oh and one more thing: the Foefire was pretty dang bad. It was not just one city, that’s just where it occurred. It hit the entirety of old Ascalonian territory, you’ll find lots of ghosts outside of Ascalon City nowadays. The souls are tortured and have no free will, they speak only because of the nature of the curse that is upon them. Them attacking people is alike to the Risen of Zhaitan attacking people. They don’t really choose to do it.

Saying that all charr are evil is like saying that all Americans are evil or all Germans or any group of people that has ancestors who committed genocide is evil. That’s simply not the case. But the charr do need to make some progress with making reparations, just as humans do. They’re not blameless. Their ancestors also took charr lands from the charr.

Zaxares.5419

Yes. That’s one very important thing to remember. The Charr of 250 years ago were vicious, savage creatures who showed no mercy to their enemies and glorified violence and bloodsport. But the Charr of today? While they’re undeniably still very militaristic and exult in war and fighting, they’re also a lot more civilised and open to peaceful relations with other races. Again, using us humans as examples, 250 years ago slavery was still an accepted institution in many countries. Cultures and societies can change a lot in a short period of time, and it’s not always fair to judge the people of today by the actions of their ancestors.

Mind you, that doesn’t mean I’ll be attending any negotiations with a Charr without a weapon at my side.

I understand forgiveness and progress. But while the former may be just plain hard to do for most Tyrian humans, the latter is my main point of contention. I just really never saw the Charr as capable of anything resembling an organized society, much less an intelligent one.

Bear with me as I use this imperfect analogy. The Charr reminded me a lot of the Uruk-hai orcs from Tolkein lore. Bigger, badder versions of your run-of-the-mill evil orc, they were killing machines. But would you ever imagine them as part of the post-Ring War peace in Middle Earth? Living aside humans, elves, and dwarves in equality and brotherhood? Imagine the following conversation 250 years after Sauron’s fall:

Urgoth(Uruk-hai): “Hey there human, you want a ride?”
Aragorn VI(human): “Hail Urgoth, we have travelled many leagues to reach Isengard. Rumors abound there are dragons brooding again up North in the Withered Heath. Do you know of it?”
Urgoth: (rolls eyes)“Umm yeah…we’ve been fighting them for awhile now, human. Anyway, do you want a ride or not?”
Aragorn VI: “Ride? We have our own horses as you can plainly see, orc,” smirking at his entourage.
Urgoth, sighs, and turns to his engineer, Mitzla, “Do you want to explain it or me?”
Mitzla: snorts, “Hey it was your idea to ask them to come, I could care less.”
Urgoth, turning back to the young King of Gondor, “Anywho…we thought it might be faster to use our zeppelins up on the skydock, but it’s up to you really.”
Aragorn VI: “Zeppelins? Skydock?”
Urgoth, sarcastically slow, he points straight up with the lead stick in his hand he was using to jot down notes.
Aragorn VI and his men look up and freeze in awe. A quarter mile above them, three large, steel platforms span out from Orthanc tower. Uruk-hai and orcs can be seen crawling all over each platform, rigging lines and carrying supplies. Huge metal and canvas balloons hover near two of the platforms, dwarfing the tower in size and majesty. The balloons seem to be loading troops, and more balloons can be seen in the distance, floating northwards over the Misty Mountains. “In Elendil’s name! What is this witchcraft and sorcery?!?”
Mitzla snarles and thumbs his mace.
Urgoth: “Easy Mitz…we have to be nice, we’re on the same side now remember?”
Mitzla grunts and walks off, cursing under his breath.
Urgoth: “You shouldn’t insult Mitzla that way, he’s one of our best engineers. And can probably gut you in 2 seconds,” he adds with a straight face. “Well, the last zeppelin leaves at dusk. Let me know if you want a ride. Either way I don’t care.”
Aragorn VI, watching Urgoth walk away, he turns to his captain, “These Uruks are vile creatures, men should not be made to fly as the crow or eagle.”
Gondor Captain, looking up at the zeppelins, “Perhaps sire, but do they serve coffee in those things?”

So once the Shaman Caste was overthrown, the charr could portray themselves as they truly are.

I think reality is a lot more nuanced than this.

Remember Pyre Fierceshot? Who led that rebellion? Has this to say about the Searing:

“My father was a great soldier. Without him, Ascalon would not be the smoldering ruin it is today. I will honor his memory.”

“Yes, mouse. Your people will retake their homeland… when they can eat ash and sleep in flame.”

This is the guy who led the effort to overthrow the shamans, I will point out again. So no, it’s simply not true that all the other Charr felt absolutely awful about what the shaman caste had done and were against it all along.

I will stand by what I said, that the Charr alive today are not responsible for what their ancestors did.

They are, however, responsible for their own attitudes about it – and that attitude seems to be for the most part about justification and insisting they were somehow the true victims. That is a problem, and is exactly why I said before that I’m not a fan of the Charr.

Their ancestors also took charr lands from the charr.

Land the Charr themselves conquered in the time of the first Khan-Ur. They weren’t the original inhabitants of Ascalon, either.

I See No Tomorrow.7302:

I think people are forgetting the charr civil war. When that occurred, the charr were freed from the oppression of the Shaman Caste. What does that mean? Well, as one person said, they can’t wait for humans to cast off gods and become a technologically advanced race that uses science and reasoning to go forth. Is that not the story of the charr?
They were oppressed by the Shaman Caste which controlled everything in charr society. The shaman caste enjoyed war, oppressed females, and generally anything that did not need their magic. So once the Shaman Caste was overthrown, the charr could portray themselves as they truly are. Don’t hold all germans responsible for the holocaust. Sure, they have a responsibility to accept what happened and make reparations even if they don’t want to (same with modern Americans with respect to Native Americans and the genocide that occurred there). In a similar vein, the charr are coming into being as a race that has thrown off oppression and grown stronger because of it.

I honestly don’t understand all of the charr hate in the game. I played GW1 when it first came out and didn’t like the charr much at all either. Yet learning that what we fought in GW1 was the same thing that charr revolutionaries fought decades after the Great Destroyer’s defeat changed my opinion of them. Heck, even the names of the flame legion NPCs match the names of charr enemies in GW1. Charr are not inherently bad. It’s only been 250 years, which is enough time for technological advancement but as a culture they are similar (not the same). 250 years ago is 1762. The genocide of Native Americans took place a few decades after that, but today there is still oppression and racism towards them (just look at halloween costumes and the sports team known as the ‘Redskins’. And have you heard of what happens on reservations? Terrible. Popular culture today is blatantly racist towards them. But I digress). You think the charr are going to let go of being against humans that quickly? No. Humans also aren’t going to let go of hating charr that quickly either. (As a whole obviously, there have been humans and charr who got along.)

Oh and one more thing: the Foefire was pretty dang bad. It was not just one city, that’s just where it occurred. It hit the entirety of old Ascalonian territory, you’ll find lots of ghosts outside of Ascalon City nowadays. The souls are tortured and have no free will, they speak only because of the nature of the curse that is upon them. Them attacking people is alike to the Risen of Zhaitan attacking people. They don’t really choose to do it.

Saying that all charr are evil is like saying that all Americans are evil or all Germans or any group of people that has ancestors who committed genocide is evil. That’s simply not the case. But the charr do need to make some progress with making reparations, just as humans do. They’re not blameless. Their ancestors also took charr lands from the charr.

The Charr civil war was an Eye of the North invention, and therefore a purposeful prelude to GW2 lore. ANet had already decided to use the Charr as a playable race for this game and needed a way to bridge that gap. EotN didn’t come out until 2 and a half years after Prophecies, and it was in specific anticipation of GW2.

The Foefire was actually localised to Ascalon City proper. The ghosts you see in GW2 strewn across the landscape are there for mob purposes really. Ghosts can wander off. You’re right they are like the Risen in that regard.

Saying all Charr all evil is nothing like saying all real people are evil who have committed genocide. That’s silly. All computer games have good guys and bad guys, it’s an accepted storyline mechanic. The Charr of Prophecies were no different from the other inherently bad guys like Titans or Shiro’ken, evil to the bone. It wasn’t until Eye of the North that their lore and characteristics take a drastic turn.

Obsidian.1328:

I See No Tomorrow.7302:

snip

The Charr civil war was an Eye of the North invention, and therefore a purposeful prelude to GW2 lore. ANet had already decided to use the Charr as a playable race for this game and needed a way to bridge that gap. EotN didn’t come out until 2 and a half years after Prophecies, and it was in specific anticipation of GW2.

The Foefire was actually localised to Ascalon City proper. The ghosts you see in GW2 strewn across the landscape are there for mob purposes really. Ghosts can wander off. You’re right they are like the Risen in that regard.

Saying all Charr all evil is nothing like saying all real people are evil who have committed genocide. That’s silly. All computer games have good guys and bad guys, it’s an accepted storyline mechanic. The Charr of Prophecies were no different from the other inherently bad guys like Titans or Shiro’ken, evil to the bone. It wasn’t until Eye of the North that their lore and characteristics take a drastic turn.

Yes, they were created as such. Then again, there was a charr in the Realm of Torment http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Garfaz_Steelfur who finds out his gods are fake and helps the player. EoTN was an expansion that established the charr as more than enemies but that doesn’t mean it should be disregarded. I’m pointing out what the lore says as a whole, not regarding when certain lore appeared. Yes, they were portrayed as bloodthirsty machines who destroyed where Rurik spent much time in those lands as a boy. But again, lore created two years later should not be disregarded and avoids my argument. The 2005 lore is in line with EoTN, Nightfall, and GW2 lore. It is still a coherent whole.

I look at it as learning more about a culture that was portrayed negatively in the past. I know it’s a video game. I know they use the ridiculous black/white good/evil mechanics. But I’m arguing purely from a lore perspective.

As it stands currently, the charr are not evil.

Anakita Snakecharm.4360:

They are, however, responsible for their own attitudes about it – and that attitude seems to be for the most part about justification and insisting they were somehow the true victims. That is a problem, and is exactly why I said before that I’m not a fan of the Charr.

Which is precisely the point I make about them not being perfect currently. American culture now has terrible racism and oppressive practices towards Native Americans but that doesn’t mean I hate all Americans. You’ll still find people proud of ancestors who fought the Natives, or people who still support Custard’s actions. He’s made out to be a martyr. All I’m saying is that this nature of still disliking people after being terrible to them is a natural course of action that can be seen in the real world. It’s not a good thing. Still shouldn’t be a reason for indiscriminately disliking all charr as a whole.

@I See No Tomorrow

Yeah, Garfaz had a turn of heart for sure. Seeing your warband’s souls devoured by demons has a tendancy to do that. I’m not saying the more current lore should be disregarded, I’m saying it doesn’t fall in line with pre EotN lore. That part I whole-heartedly disagree with you, I’m not sure how you come up with that. Finding one helpfull Charr in the Realm of Torment doesn’t exactly grant the whole race reprieve from how it’s commonly understood at the time. It was a colorful side-story. The Charr of Prophecies have little to do with the Charr of EotN or GW2 in terms of social and political constructs. They were like the Ogres you see around Ebonhawke in GW2: fierce and strong but hardly a race that knew how to build anything bigger than a warcamp, much less read a book.

I remember being surprised in EotN when we first meet Pyre and he starts talking to the group. Beyond some simple grunts and gestures, I didn’t even know Charr could talk.

Obsidian.1328:

@I See No Tomorrow

Yeah, Garfaz had a turn of heart for sure. Seeing your warband’s souls devoured by demons has a tendancy to do that. I’m not saying the more current lore should be disregarded, I’m saying it doesn’t fall in line with pre EotN lore. That part I whole-heartedly disagree with you, I’m not sure how you come up with that. Finding one helpfull Charr in the Realm of Torment doesn’t exactly grant the whole race reprieve from how it’s commonly understood at the time. It was a colorful side-story. The Charr of Prophecies have little to do with the Charr of EotN or GW2 in terms of social and political constructs. They were like the Ogres you see around Ebonhawke in GW2: fierce and strong but hardly a race that knew how to build anything bigger than a warcamp, much less read a book.

I remember being surprised in EotN when we first meet Pyre and he starts talking to the group. Beyond some simple grunts and gestures, I didn’t even know Charr could talk.

They were definitely portrayed as a faceless enemy bent on pure destruction. I also did not know charr could speak but suspected they could due to the boss names (which seemed to me like charr creations and not human naming) and the fact that they had forged their own weapons, armor, and were organized (all of which is not possible without language).
They were essentially mindless shaman caste drones brainwashed to do the bidding of the ruling class. It was obvious in the first game that they worshiped ‘false’ gods. It was obvious that the leaders of the charr were shamans or some sort of magic user. That does fall in line for me, and that’s why I say that it acts as a coherent whole. You can agree or disagree with me but I stand by my interpretation.

But I digress, my point in my original long winded post was about charr society as a whole (and as we see it currently), not whether or not they were portrayed as good or bad in the first campaign of the first game.

@I See No Tomorrow

Yeah, the rejection of the false gods certainly gives some credence to their role as the “technocrats” for lack of a better word. I just don’t think it is nearly enough, which brings me, too, back to our long-winded posts. They went from obviously inferior biengs in terms of intellectual advancement to the top dogs of science in this game. That wouldn’t really matter at all had the other races been on par with this, but they weren’t. The other’s retained their “fantasy roles” quite thoroughly, even the quirky Asura.

The Asura are probably the most aptly portrayed: They built a modern, magical capital completely in line with how they were seen in Eye. They focus on magic in a scientific sense, but it’s still essentially magical. And their society seems to have progressed the way you would think it would in 250 years. Now, had they been portrayed in, say, Prophecies as something akin to the Skritt I would have issue with it.

The Norn have slower progression, they can build more grandiose cities(or Lodges). And the humans have seemed to almost devolved of a sorts, nothing really new about Divinity’s Reach aside from scale. It just seems really strange to me to see a Charr behind the wheel of a tank when most everyone else is still smelting swords and scribing scrolls. Does rejecting the gods really give you that much of an edge? And if so, why doesn’t everyone else do it?

I will say I enjoy this discussion, none of it is personal(mostly) on my part. I enjoy good banter and the nerd in me appreciates yours and others knowledge on the subject.

Didn’t really play the first game or the expansions, read up on the lore though for context, so I prob can’t say much in the way of Lore that hasn’t already been mentioned. Speaking from the writers perspective though I assume the Charr are as they are because that’s their niche role. They weren’t particularly cultured or advanced in the first game because they didn’t need to be. They were the antagonists as seen through the perspective of the PC and humanity in general, taking into account racial bias, the constant warring and the resulting hatred between the two is it that much of a surprise that they seemed (as I’m fairly certain was the intention for you / us to) little more than animals. They were also not playable, interaction with them was usually limited to fighting so they didn’t have to be particularly well fleshed out or have much of an Identity outside of their role which was to play the antagonist.

Skip ahead 250 in-game years and they are playable, need to be more fleshed out, are now multifaceted / complex and they’ve advanced technologically (even given my opinions on this all I’ll admit to be taken by surprise by just how far they’ve come on this last front but what we’ll give the near archetypical little green men from mars with space-age technology aka Asurans a free pass because they slap a “its magic not sci-fi” stamp on everything but when the Charr have Industrial Revolution level technology with a few WW1 era military additions we cry foul?) The reason I figure the other races haven’t changed much is because they already have a niche, they have an established place in the narrative. The Charr are re-defining theirs outside of being the brutish antagonist of the earlier games. The other race that is still finding their place / niche in the story are the Sylvari. Imagine that, the 2 races still carving out their roles / niche taking prominent roles (in terms of important characters met, leadership roles and general input into the story) … Hardly a coincidence.

@Harlequin

Wow, nice argument Harlequin. You make good points. I see what you mean by the seeming Asuran double-standard. Personally when I was introduced to them in EotN through Vekk, I simply assumed they were already a highly advanced race because the crazy toys…err…tools they employed(golems, gates, etc.) as well as the uniqueness of Rata Sum. I imagined their old capital underground was 10 times as grandiose, before the Destroyers pushed them above-ground. Rata Sum, as cool as it was in GW1, was a refugee city. The Charr were already firmly set in my mind through Prophecies. Given that perspective, the Asura haven’t really advanced much in 250 years.

I suppose at the heart of my argument is a much more sinister culprit: sentimentality. I played Eye of the North straight after Prophecies, only buying Factions and Nightfall within the last year(and it was for the skills, not the HoM points, I already had 30). So my view is much more skewed away from Cantha and Elona to focus on Tyria mostly. And Eye was more an expansion than a stand-alone campaign. As well it was an introductory lore-patch for GW2, as opposed to having solid historical ground of its own to stand on.

Consequently, I just really liked Ascalon, I don’t know what it is about it. The history, the culture, the people, they all seem(ed) dear to me in a wierd way. And I continue to look at GW2 through Ascalonian eyes, I don’t think that will change. Bias plays a part I’m sure in other players who feel the same. And still others really identify with Cantha or Elona as well. Perhaps I wouldn’t feel so rotten on the whole Charr thing if Ascalon had survived and hung on in semblance of their former selves. Ebonhawke in the game is a sad town, all ashen and grey; a far cry from the sunny green hills and clear streams of old.

Its people have begun to think of themselves as Tyrians first now, and Ascalonians a far second. But then again, that’s the whole point of Guild Wars 2 isn’t it?

I still haven’t visited Ebonhawke in GW2, but I think that might have been a deliberate design decision on the part of ANet. On the whole, Ascalon has recovered from the Searing; the lands are once more lush and filled with life. Only in Ebonhawke, where both Charr and humans stubbornly cling on to hatreds of the past and refuse to move on is the land still so bleak and devastated from war.

In any event, I see the Charr as still being an evolving race. In time, diplomacy and integration with the other races will mellow out their innate ferocity. You can already see it with Charr that have left to live in places like Lion’s Arch and in many other locations throughout the game. The other day I was in Caledon Forest at one of the havens when I heard a Charr ask an Asuran if he still had any of that back salve available, complaining that he strained his back when he lifted a sack of bricks the wrong way. It was such a casual, friendly exchange between two races that I couldn’t help but smile.

There are a lot of players who simply can’t forgive the Charr though. I have several friends who refuse to play a Charr simply because they remember the Searing and what it meant to their characters. I don’t blame them for it. In fact, I consider it an awesome achievement on ANet’s part that they could make us feel so strongly about a fictional land.

Obsidian.1328:

My problem with the Charr is thus: they are fake.

They are at best the forced construct of an unfolding lore that deparately needed to have them be the good guys now. The whole spirit of GW2 is this not-so-subtle moral tale on how we all need to get along and forget our past grudges. Why? Because the dragons are the bad guys now. The Charr used to be be the quintessential bad guys: brutish, ugly, feral…basically beasts who knew how to fight in formation. They were the primary enemy in GW1 Prophesies before the expansions came out.

Comparing the Foefire to the Searing is like comparing a housefire to an earthqauke. The Foefire, while tragic, only affected one city. Given the extreme hatred between these two races it doesn’t seem so surprising really. The Searing on the other hand, affected every single culture in Tyria. And in a very bad way. It opened the door for invasion of both Kryta and Orr by the Charr.

The Krytans had to turn to abject slavery under the White Mantle and the Mursaat to be saved annihilation by the Charr. It took years of civil war and death to oust the Mantle out, and the strife bled into Magumma and the Shiverpeaks as well. The land was in shambles after that, and they were the lucky ones.

When the Charr came marching on Orr after the Searing, the humans turned to the Vizier in desperation. Secretly he had been biding his time for such an opportunity and promptly used the Scepter of Orr in the Cataclysm to sink the entire continent to the bottom of the sea. Hey, at least he killed the Charr too. :/

And we don’t need to talk about Ascalon. So…one event made mad ghosts out of a city. The other changed the entire face of Tyria forever…in an ugly way. Two kingdoms dead and gone and one on the ropes. All because of, directly or indirectly, the Charr and the Searing.

It’s not a fair comparison.

Yet, even with all of that, my biggest gripe with the Charr is that they were conjured out of thin air. I’ll explain.

The Charr of GW1 were, as I mentioned, beastly and cruel. The only advanced social structures they could boast were a rudimentary caste system and some effective mass military tactics. Other than that they weren’t too far off the DNA path from the grawl.

The Charr of GW2 are rediculously different. They have these modern, steel-girded cities, advanced weapons of war, a finely-tuned army and social structure. They are marvels of modern engineering for goodness sake; 4-story tall motorcycles? What the heck is that? They went from communicating with grunts and rudimentary speech wearing loincloths in GW1 to being the champions of technology in GW2.

All in the span of 250 years…

That is some crazy-fast evolution. Meanwhile the Asura (the obvious engineer choice) are over there twiddling their thumbs making yet another Golem based on the original model. And now everyone is supposed to be all friendly and nice because the dragons are around. /facepalm

So, to me anyway, the Charr are the superficial construct of a storyline that desperately needed to make them be the good guys now. Hate to say it, because I really like a lot of the writing that went into both games, but it’s bad writing.

You might as well line up every human in Kryta and have Rytlock walk along them, slapping each one in the face and laughing gleefully as he carries Rurik’s stolen sword with him.

Oh…I didn’t make a Charr character if anyone was wondering.

Very well said! There’s not much more for me to add, but I thank you on behalf of many a frustrated lore fan!

I think its sad that the human race have been pushed aside by Arenanet. In gw1 we got to play human and only human, they were very dominant over other races, they inhabited many regions (Tyria, Cantha, Elona and perhaps even further than we know). To be honest i think they should feature more prominently than the other races, because Tyria was a human continent and so were Cantha and Elona, also the Bulk of Guild Wars lore is based on human activity. But what Arenanet is currently doing is focusing on “The five races” theme which I like and enjoy but the humans barely feature, and the problem with that is how do they expect to connect and relate Guild Wars 2 to Guild Wars 1 because gw1 was all human (mostly) at this rate I don’t think we will even go to Cantha and Elona (If this really happens ill be quite pissed) because we know they are human continents and Arenanet wont make expansions focusing on one race in particular. However its understandable of Arenanet to provide players with a variety of races to attract potential players. I really hope Arenanet has furture plans for the human race because:
They have the most lore and backround compared to the other 4 races.
We know that there are other human continents which are possible candidates for future expansions.
Arenanet made beautiful and eccentric human kingdoms in gw1, (now think of how amazing Divinitys Reach is, imagine Kaineng city in gw2 and considering the leap of time it might be a thriving megalopolis or a slum, The jade sea + our current underwater system/combat = amazingness. All the diverse cultures of the gw1 games were inspired by real world locations, (Tyria-European themed, Cantha-Oriental themed, and Elona-African themed) Which i think is really amazing of them to do that because we as human players ( i hope your all humans O.-) can relate to the certain aspects of the game which was beautiful). I hope this changes your perspective on “Humans: A dying race?”

Human’s aren’t dying, they have just been put back on equal footings with other races with equal intelligence.

In GW1 Humans were settled all over Tyria, and were being pushed back because of it (settling in everyone else’s homeland!) . Just because Humans aren’t dominate doesn’t mean they will die out. Try not to get too attached to humans just because they represent us in the world best, GW is an entirely different universe.

Try swapping the races around in the lore, and see if you feel the same way.

Quaz.4931:

Try swapping the races around in the lore, and see if you feel the same way.

Why be hypothetical about it? Another race is already doing just that, population expanding rapidly (at a much faster clip than even humans did, actually) and moving outward into other races’ settled homelands.

That would be the Sylvari.

If we need an example of another race being “swapped”… well, all you have to do is consider your feelings about the Sylvari we already have.

The hard part for me to get over with the Charr is that they are actual PEOPLE now. Like, they are characters and personalities. I mean, when I met Pyre in EotN, I felt incredibly awkward… why?

Charr Hide Armor. < Do you know how hard it is to like a race, if you were willing to skin them and wear them for armor?

BunnytheSwordsman.4173:

Charr Hide Armor. < Do you know how hard it is to like a race, if you were willing to skin them and wear them for armor?

Not much different from salvaging leather scraps from centaur hides and using that to craft my leather armor on my Norn, I presume.

I didn’t like Pyre either. Some of his flavour dialogue made me raise an eyebrow and a lot of similar dialogue can be found in GW2. I’m not going to beat around the bush here, since I’ve already seen one MMO drop the ball with its lore in order to play favourites with playable races. I’m not going to ask for humans to be ‘better’ or more prominent than the charr, though I do expect Arena Net to treat the human lore with the same amount of passion they are quite readily throwing in the direction of the charr.