Guild Wars 2

Hello everyone!

I’ve been playing in Edge of the Mists for a long time. I play in “regular” WvW zones too, but I find Edge to be more interesting – it’s a beautifully designed zone, albeit with a few flaws.

Recently – over the last month or two – the zone has changed. Previously, you could go to Edge for a bit of fun at any level. You could capture a keep, defend a keep, roam around killing people, try out some guild tactics… whatever you wanted to do.

However, times have changed, and now a lot of people are using Edge to level up in the “karma train”. The karma train involves, as far as I can tell, groups of players trying to capture as many things as possible, as quickly as possible, for maximum profit in gold, champ bags, karma and experience.

Fair enough, if players want to do that – that’s cool.

Unfortunately, the “karma train” has been getting steadily more abusive and single-minded. I’ve witnessed some horrible arguments in mapchat because some people would like to defend or kill other players, and apparently this is interrupting the karma train.

My question is this: was Edge of the Mists intended as a karma train map? Do you, Anet, support the karma train in Edge of the Mists? Should players be allowed to karma train? Should they be allowed to defend? If you support the train, why are players allowed to kill players?

As for the abusive players who karma train – I’ve personally reported a few, and I’m sure others have as well. I also know of new players who have, after encountering the hostility in Edge of the Mists’ mapchat, decided to quit the game, or avoid WvW altogether. This reeks of the same toxic atmosphere that pervaded Queensdale prior to the removal of the champions in that zone. Perhaps a solution along these lines would be advisable?

Their stance in some stream not long ago was that EotM is a great success and exactly what they wanted.

I love the EotM karma train. I main thief, and run around preying on the tail-ends of karma trains. The best is seeing them RAGE. I’d rather see salty text from the guy I just assassinated than see an exotic drop. I gain so much pleasure from kittening people off who take EotM for granted and think its free Karma….. Not when I’m around. I’ll kill your kitten before your train even realizes you’ve been attacked.

Basically, it insults my ego as a roaming thief that players, especially up-level, think they can run around getting free WXP without fear of me killing them. It’s more fun killing people that don’t expect/dont feel they deserve to die

deepwinter.9015:

To make matters worse, guilds organize on all three sides and monopolize the map by intentionally avoiding each other and griefing defenders (typically by mass reporting the player with false accusations).

Its utterly disgusting what EotM has become, and I was a huge fan of it before and just after launch! Its Queensdale Train 2.0 and it makes me sick!

And where is the Queensdale Champ Train now? And why? So, will we see an even-handed application of justice in EotM?

The Queensdale Champ Train was vilified on these forums because of the toxic atmosphere generated by people griefing anyone doing a champ out of order. Some argued that those killing champs out of order were the griefers. Was it nerfed because QD is a starter zone? Is EotM a starter zone? There seems to be an awful lot of uplevels there doing the K-train. Then there’s the Frostgorge Champ Train. Or was. That has been nerfed as well. Did anyone complain about the Frostgorge train? Not nearly as much, afaik, on these forums, but it was nerfed as well. One could say it was nerfed because of the economic impact of champ farming. So if EotM has turned into the exact same thing that the former champ trains used to be, does that mean we will see some sort of nerf there as well?

Wow, I just read the Reddit post linked above. Someone actually admits to violating the ToS by using match manipulation? Mass reporting a defender is also against the ToS. Defending is not a reportable offense. My jaw is still in my lap.

They need to put a central SM like castle in the middle of the map and see what hapoens to the karma train. that will kitten up everyone right quick.

deepwinter.9015:

To make matters worse, guilds organize on all three sides and monopolize the map by intentionally avoiding each other and griefing defenders (typically by mass reporting the player with false accusations).

Its utterly disgusting what EotM has become, and I was a huge fan of it before and just after launch! Its Queensdale Train 2.0 and it makes me sick!

I’m not going to discuss that guild here, because I don’t want to derail the thread and get it locked. Clearly, though, this kind of behaviour is just not acceptable.

It really is a shame, as Edge of the Mists used to be so much fun – everyone could do whatever they wanted without being called out for being too low-level or not doing this or that. I hope that Anet can salvage something from the mess it’s become.

Sinbold.8723:

Wow, I just read the Reddit post linked above. Someone actually admits to violating the ToS by using match manipulation? Mass reporting a defender is also against the ToS. Defending is not a reportable offense. My jaw is still in my lap.

Neither is griefing Boss Blitz runs. Or intentionally killing QD champs out of order. Or reaching for thinly veiled excuse and kicking people at the end of dungeons. Joining rated PvP matches using troll builds and trying 10% is also not against the ToS.

Looking that the post history of yesterday’s OP (ANet deleted thread) will reveal at least the one of the above, as well as a general motive.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/members/unicorngirl-1487/showposts

Defending is not a reportable offense, but reporting for trolling/griefing motive is not uncalled for.

Will you fault casuals with a sore in their rear who report people for requiring lvl 80s and zerker meta for dungeons too? They feel it goes against the spirit of the game, so they report it. We disagree with their feelings but we can see some validity in coming to that conclusion.

If people feel the motive is not defending but griefing/trolling then why can’t they report and let ANet sort it out?

deepwinter.9015:

To make matters worse, guilds organize on all three sides and monopolize the map by intentionally avoiding each other and griefing defenders (typically by mass reporting the player with false accusations).

Its utterly disgusting what EotM has become, and I was a huge fan of it before and just after launch! Its Queensdale Train 2.0 and it makes me sick!

That link explains a lot of what I’ve seen in the past month or so. I would love to be a fly on the wall in the Anet offices if/when this gets discussed.

DaveGan.8065:

Sinbold.8723:

Wow, I just read the Reddit post linked above. Someone actually admits to violating the ToS by using match manipulation? Mass reporting a defender is also against the ToS. Defending is not a reportable offense. My jaw is still in my lap.

Neither is griefing Boss Blitz runs. Or intentionally killing QD champs out of order. Or reaching for thinly veiled excuse and kicking people at the end of dungeons. Joining rated PvP matches using troll builds and trying 10% is also not against the ToS.

Looking that the post history of yesterday’s OP (ANet deleted thread) will reveal at least the one of the above, as well as a general motive.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/members/unicorngirl-1487/showposts

Defending is not a reportable offense, but reporting for trolling/griefing motive is not uncalled for.

Will you fault casuals with a sore in their rear who report people for requiring lvl 80s and zerker meta for dungeons too? They feel it goes against the spirit of the game, so they report it. We disagree with their feelings but we can see some validity in coming to that conclusion.

If people feel the motive is not defending but griefing/trolling then why can’t they report and let ANet sort it out?

So you are ok with what is going on?

bloodletting wolf.2837:

DaveGan.8065:

Sinbold.8723:

Wow, I just read the Reddit post linked above. Someone actually admits to violating the ToS by using match manipulation? Mass reporting a defender is also against the ToS. Defending is not a reportable offense. My jaw is still in my lap.

Neither is griefing Boss Blitz runs. Or intentionally killing QD champs out of order. Or reaching for thinly veiled excuse and kicking people at the end of dungeons. Joining rated PvP matches using troll builds and trying 10% is also not against the ToS.

Looking that the post history of yesterday’s OP (ANet deleted thread) will reveal at least the one of the above, as well as a general motive.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/members/unicorngirl-1487/showposts

Defending is not a reportable offense, but reporting for trolling/griefing motive is not uncalled for.

Will you fault casuals with a sore in their rear who report people for requiring lvl 80s and zerker meta for dungeons too? They feel it goes against the spirit of the game, so they report it. We disagree with their feelings but we can see some validity in coming to that conclusion.

If people feel the motive is not defending but griefing/trolling then why can’t they report and let ANet sort it out?

So you are ok with what is going on?

I would not encourage people to do it on a mass scale, but I don’t see a problem with it if the people doing it are feeling trolled/griefed. Reporting =/= ban.

UPDATE: I just talked to Elaina himself and he’s confused as hell. It seems someone made a reddit account, impersonated him, and made stuff up.

The answer is simple. Nerf the rewards to match wvw or set some sort of diminishing return that nerfs the rewards for and endless circle….

So I suppose the post on that guilds website was fake too?

It just goes to show the game no longer carries interest for the people who level up alts and the grind is simply too much work. Perhaps if ANet adjusted the time and effort involved in leveling a character the problems in EotM wouldn’t be so bad.

I remember being so excited for EotM when it was announced. A format that would have the good elements of WvW, without the endless grind of ppt and coverage wars. Something you could actually sit down and play for the fights and the score like alliance battles in GW1. Try to win and use your brain a bit, but mostly fight players.

Kinda sad how poorly basically everything was executed, and how it’s become an awful cesspool of all the stereotypical MMO player behavior. Also keep in mind that this whole concept was dreamed up when there were lengthy queues on all maps in T1 much of the day, the next few tiers during NA, and most servers during reset night. EotM was supposed to be an overflow for WvW queues. Anet has does such a bang up job neglecting WvW that the original problem no longer exist.

bloodletting wolf.2837:

So I suppose the post on that guilds website was fake too?

Anyone can make an account and join the website. There is not even an application process. Simply hit “join” with your Enjin account. The forum posts are still there.

I don’t think the backlash today is against 3 way ktrains; it seems to be against the (false) “mass reporting” allegations. Your red herring attempts are pretty adorable though!

Again, though, if people are feeling trolled/griefed they should have every right to report it to ANet, who will sort out the issue from an neutral point of view.

DaveGan.8065:

bloodletting wolf.2837:

So I suppose the post on that guilds website was fake too?

Anyone can make an account and join the website. There is not even an application process. Simply hit “join” with your Enjin account. The forum posts are still there.

I don’t think the backlash today is against 3 way ktrains; it seems to be against the (false) “mass reporting” allegations. Your red herring attempts are pretty adorable though!

Again, though, if people are feeling trolled/griefed they should have every right to report it to ANet, who will sort out the issue from an neutral point of view.

Not my red herring attempt. I was simply asking a simple question to gather more information.

The thing is, i’ve been in quite a few eotm maps with [eotm] commanders and if the zerg rocks up to blue keep and its defended they 99% of the time say “it’s defended guys, skip it and roll on”.
Theres no reason to try and take blue keep if its being defended, none, nada, zip.
If you want to sit there on a sup ac for 3 hours going “omg, omg, i’m going to get those uplevels, i’m gonna kitten them so hard” and then the zerg rocks up and goes “hmmm, nope. lets just wander on” of course you’re going to be upset.
I understand you want to play that way, but the other 99% of us don’t want to be ac fodder and will move on, yep, you defend that, we’ll flip the map (which also gives more points in wvw btw and is a solid tactic – who knew?).
Are you also seriously claiming that that guild has commanders on all maps on all shards for every team?… seriously?
as i said in the last troll post:
who won in the shard i was in last tuesday at 9am? how many points? if its a serious match where are the records?
if a zergbusting guild like the rather amazing and incredible [TA] guild rocks up and starts easily destroying every one in seconds but caps nothing – are they “matchfixing”? are they playing as intended? do you want them removed from the game for not playing your way?
This is attempt #2 at trying to convince everyone that the eotm map is the same as queensdale train. Nice attempt but i’ve had great fights, amazing ambushes, heroic defenses and made quite a few friends. If it gets removed because of a handful of petty people it will be a great loss to a lot of people.
but, that may be what the op wants.

Treebeard The Swift.9620:

The thing is, i’ve been in quite a few eotm maps with [eotm] commanders and if the zerg rocks up to blue keep and its defended they 99% of the time say “it’s defended guys, skip it and roll on”.
Theres no reason to try and take blue keep if its being defended, none, nada, zip.
If you want to sit there on a sup ac for 3 hours going “omg, omg, i’m going to get those uplevels, i’m gonna kitten them so hard” and then the zerg rocks up and goes “hmmm, nope. lets just wander on” of course you’re going to be upset.
I understand you want to play that way, but the other 99% of us don’t want to be ac fodder and will move on, yep, you defend that, we’ll flip the map (which also gives more points in wvw btw and is a solid tactic – who knew?).
Are you also seriously claiming that that guild has commanders on all maps on all shards for every team?… seriously?
as i said in the last troll post:
who won in the shard i was in last tuesday at 9am? how many points? if its a serious match where are the records?
if a zergbusting guild like the rather amazing and incredible [TA] guild rocks up and starts easily destroying every one in seconds but caps nothing – are they “matchfixing”? are they playing as intended? do you want them removed from the game for not playing your way?
This is attempt #2 at trying to convince everyone that the eotm map is the same as queensdale train. Nice attempt but i’ve had great fights, amazing ambushes, heroic defenses and made quite a few friends. If it gets removed because of a handful of petty people it will be a great loss to a lot of people.
but, that may be what the op wants.

Why would I want Edge of the Mists to be removed? It’s my favourite zone…

Can you (and others) stop trying to derail the thread, please? This is about karma training in Edge of the Mists and Anet’s position on it, given recent abusiveness that seems to be taking over mapchat every time anyone decides to do something other than “ktraining”.

heatherlea.7186:

Treebeard The Swift.9620:

The thing is, i’ve been in quite a few eotm maps with [eotm] commanders

I’m sure you have been, since you are in that guild. So why are you pretending to be impartial in this discussion?

Why does membership in the guild remove his neutrality on analyzing an issue?

How do you even know he’s in the guild? Either you are (or have been) in the roster yourself, or you are grasping for straws. The former would undermine your own impartiality by your logic, and the latter says quite a bit about your motives and credibility.

Additionally, ANet’s removal of your last thread has shown their feelings on the matter.

To OP,
You seem to be focusing rather particularly on the guild statements – not on the actual reasoning. Lets try again,
what do you OP want from eotm?
do you want to force people to take a keep you are defending?
do you want to force all players to the middle for a 3 way fps dropping zergfest?
do you want to win in your shard by ppt no matter what the other teams or players want?
you seem to be attacking a guild under a thinly veiled guise of saying that eotm is being ruined because players don’t want to play your way 24/7.
Please elaborate on what you want from eotm map, what your vision of it is.
Please stop throwing a personal hissy fit at a guild on a forum.

edit: oh and yes i do use the [eotm} guild as a ferry to maps with players. Its handy if you’re stranded in a dead map but i have my own guild and do the same for others such as tequatl and wurm, so no its not “my” guild. Also – if you’re staring at my name…you’re in the same zerg as me ktraining…interesting.

heatherlea.7186:

How do I know? Because I was just in EOTM right now and saw him with his guild tag popped as I alt tabbed to see this thread.

You mean you added him to your stalker list to recognize the account? Treebeard The Swift is not even a valid character name, much less anything close to a character name Treebeard The Swift.9620 plays. Your BS and motives have been exposed yet again, but keep trying.

heatherlea.7186:

And you are trying to devolve this conversation about other players instead of the core issue is the cheating that is going on in EOTM.

Your impartiality is highlighted for all to see. It’s a bit beyond the speculated impartiality of Treebeard (you have yet to address a single point he made other than speculate about his guild membership).

To be honest, as this thread includes a link to a reddit post impersonating Elaina Eldee, it has already been derailed and should be closed.

I’ve asked you before to stop trying to derail this thread. Why are you continuing to do so? This is about karma training – not a single guild. Yet you’re coming in here with very defensive comments – it seems a little suspicious.

If you have something to add to the discussion, be my guest. Perhaps you could offer a solution to the problem at hand? Decreased rewards for capturing objectives, or diminishing returns? Or as I suggested in the original post – if Anet intends this to be a PvE map, they could remove the ability to kill other players?

Thanks

mathras.2450:

I’ve asked you before to stop trying to derail this thread. Why are you continuing to do so? This is about karma training – not a single guild. Yet you’re coming in here with very defensive comments – it seems a little suspicious.

If you have something to add to the discussion, be my guest. Perhaps you could offer a solution to the problem at hand? Decreased rewards for capturing objectives, or diminishing returns? Or as I suggested in the original post – if Anet intends this to be a PvE map, they could remove the ability to kill other players?

Thanks

deepwinter.9015 the 1st post after your opening post derailed this thread not anyone else.

mathras.2450:

I’ve asked you before to stop trying to derail this thread. Why are you continuing to do so? This is about karma training – not a single guild. Yet you’re coming in here with very defensive comments – it seems a little suspicious.

If you have something to add to the discussion, be my guest. Perhaps you could offer a solution to the problem at hand? Decreased rewards for capturing objectives, or diminishing returns? Or as I suggested in the original post – if Anet intends this to be a PvE map, they could remove the ability to kill other players?

Thanks

As I and others have said, your thread got derailed long before my posts and this thread already should be closed.

As far as your second point goes, I’ll bite. Since this game is not in a growing phase, I don’t agree with proposals to nerf anything (unless they are counterbalanced by other buffs). As far as a solution goes, I think it would need to be making other aspects of the game more viable.

The EotM ktrain is done for 4 reasons: karma, dragonite, WXP, and XP. In fact, many players feel “forced” into EotM, especially when they are doing it for karma and dragonite.

Karma training requires that karma is needed in quantity, and that specific ways of obtaining it are vastly superior to other ways. One solution to this issue is to introduce it to PvP, buff it for map exploration/completion, and reintroduce it for doing dungeons. Another solution might be the removal of karma altogether.

Dragonite comes from WvW/EotM keeps and world bosses (many of which drop just 3-5). To clear the dragonite farmers out of EotM, perhaps the lesser world bosses should drop 10-15. Alternatively, reward dragonite when a keep is defended, in addition to it being flipped and reflipped.

Experience comes very fast through events in EotM. Dungeons are still nice but they have been heavily nerfed. Boss chests from dungeons are now once a day. Karma from them has been virtually eliminated. World completion rewards cannot compare either. There are various methods to address this.

• Tomes of Knowledge could be more widely available outside of sPvP.
• Boss chests from dungeons could be reverted.
• Map completion rewards could give enough experience overall to provide 5-10 levels on completing a map, rather than 2-3.

WXP is also obtained in EotM, but I don’t see anything wrong with that at the moment.

tl;dr: Guild Wars 2 is no longer a growing game. Rather than nerfing ways to level and gain progression, other areas need to be buffed so people do not feel bottlenecked into content they may honestly rather not do.

Sinbold.8723:

Wow, I just read the Reddit post linked above. Someone actually admits to violating the ToS by using match manipulation? Mass reporting a defender is also against the ToS. Defending is not a reportable offense. My jaw is still in my lap.

I tip my hat to that guy, that is one of the best troll posts I have ever seen. He really knows how to push people’s buttons. The only giveaway really is that it’s too perfect to be an actual post.

DaveGan presents many good points. I don’t use EotM myself but I can certainly understand why many people do.

I don’t know why ANet can’t see that people who have 2000-5000 hours into a game need some much better alternatives to all the things DaveGan listed: getting karma, leveling/getting XP, getting loot, and getting dragonite.

I think that once the QD train was nerfed there weren’t any other places to go.

I will just add that while many people would “oh shame on you” the idea of using gems to buy levels, we already do that. You can buy BL keys, to open BL chests, which may contain an experience scroll. I would simply suggest to take the chance part out and just let us buy the things.

If people want to karma train, I really couldn’t care. But as much as people are allowed to karma train in EOTM, other people are allowed to defend and do pvp. It only becomes trolling when it turns into harassment.

To me, it’s the lesser of the two evils. At least karma trains stay out of the real WvW maps.

(Do people really talk trash to defenders in EOTM? I only went there a few times.)

Lord Kuru.3685:

• The megaserver nature of EoTM ensures it has no community.
• No community means there’s no “team spirit.”
• No team spirit means no one cares about winning or losing.
• No one caring about winning or losing means 24/7 karma train.

EoTM’s massive failure is actually a great lesson on the importance of community. Of course Anet didn’t learn that when they used EoTM as a beta for megaservers.

Not really true as WvW karma training was/is a thing on normal WvW maps with the very communities you think so highly of. It’s the same in all MMO’s, just look at ESO with the emperor unlock. Same 3 faction with communities on each side, but they coordinate to trade emperor back and forth.

The two major reasons it happens:

Rewards for not fighting > Rewards for fighting
Eotm is the best map to do it in

There is no reason to win the match because the ultimate reward isn’t great. The potential karma/loot is far better just karma training. Dangle a big carrot as a reward for winning and watch how quickly all sides fight tooth and nail to get it.

Distaste.4801:

Lord Kuru.3685:

• The megaserver nature of EoTM ensures it has no community.
• No community means there’s no “team spirit.”
• No team spirit means no one cares about winning or losing.
• No one caring about winning or losing means 24/7 karma train.

EoTM’s massive failure is actually a great lesson on the importance of community. Of course Anet didn’t learn that when they used EoTM as a beta for megaservers.

Not really true as WvW karma training was/is a thing on normal WvW maps with the very communities you think so highly of. It’s the same in all MMO’s, just look at ESO with the emperor unlock. Same 3 faction with communities on each side, but they coordinate to trade emperor back and forth.

The two major reasons it happens:

Rewards for not fighting > Rewards for fighting
Eotm is the best map to do it in

There is no reason to win the match because the ultimate reward isn’t great. The potential karma/loot is far better just karma training. Dangle a big carrot as a reward for winning and watch how quickly all sides fight tooth and nail to get it.

WvW karma training has generally been restricted to the end of the week, after the PPT results have long been determined. EoTM is 24/7 karma train. I don’t think anything will save EoTM as long as they keep the megaserver feature.

If I want to kill you in a WvW zone, that is the point of WvW.
If you want to karma train because the rewards are there, ok, but it comes at the risk of being attacked.
I completely enjoy attacking karma trains and don’t apologize for it.
Frankly, I’d like to see more organized guilds bust up the karma training so we can “claw back” EOTM and have it get focused more on WvW again.

seriously – wvw comunity in this game is a rly ugly comunity and this thread show you guyz will not be happy before the last left wvw or eotm – right?

when arenanet trie to fix wvw or eotm than they should start with fixing this arrowcart heros – 5 player aoe limit

thx

oh and edit: when wanna defend or play wvw with scouts and all this boring things – than why dont play wvw?

Sinbold.8723:

Wow, I just read the Reddit post linked above. Someone actually admits to violating the ToS by using match manipulation? Mass reporting a defender is also against the ToS. Defending is not a reportable offense. My jaw is still in my lap.

Have encountered them as well. A couple of us decided to defend after they announced in map chat that they were controlling 2 of the three sides and were planning on avoiding fights. They became rather agitated after 2 of us wiped their other guild mates zerg a couple of times while holding our keep. After coming over to rage at us they informed us that they just coordinated with the other guildy to avoid the keep we were defending. Which worked since we were looking to win the match to provide more supply for our home borderland. Of course now we know what to watch for now. It’s kind of up to the players to not support this kind of game play, you see it happening, then stop and fight or defend as needed. That or eliminate cross server guilds, they are already a conflict of interest since the only thing that now defines community is WvW. Good hunting!

This is an MMO, people like to farm in MMO’s for gold,mats, loot, etc. This is what they get for nerfing every single farming spot in the game. Players will just move to the next best thing. If you can get on an EotM map with solid blobs going you can make a lot of loot, money, and karma. EotM will most likely get nerfed in some way if the map chat hostility keeps going on (just like they did to queensdale). On a side note, i love roaming in EotM, karma zerglings are the easiest things to kill ever lol. They rage so hard when I nuke them down right before they run into a keep to get the cap.

Romek.4201:

seriously – wvw comunity in this game is a rly ugly comunity and this thread show you guyz will not be happy before the last left wvw or eotm – right?

when arenanet trie to fix wvw or eotm than they should start with fixing this arrowcart heros – 5 player aoe limit

thx

oh and edit: when wanna defend or play wvw with scouts and all this boring things – than why dont play wvw?

Arrow carts are providing the role they were meant for, anti-zerg weaponry. Beside that they are easy to defeat, don’t stack a zerg in one spot. EoTM is WvW, from the beginning they stated that it is a WvW overflow.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/info/updates/Game-Update-Notes-February-4-2014

“NEW FEATURES AND CONTENT
World vs. World
Introducing the Edge of the Mists
A brand-new section of the Mists has been uncovered for players to battle in.
This new WvW map will always be available and, unlike existing WvW maps, is able to create overflow instances. This means players no longer have to wait to play WvW, regardless of the number of players attempting to play.
The map can be entered from the WvW UI screen or from Lion’s Arch.”

I don’t mind people wanting to take objectives, game was meant for that, but if people want to play the game as it was designed to be played, aka attacking and defending, it’s valid for them to do so as well. The risk/reward factor is that in the Edge you can go for easy loot, but something might be stalking you as well.

To your last question, spend a couple of hours daily in the borderlands, but popping out to the Edge can mix things up as well and can find some rather fun fights since the environment plays a larger factor in some fights. Would love to see some of the aspects carried over to the regular borderlands as well. People organizing to avoid fights though, that turns my stomach. Go to some PvE zone if you are completely unwilling to fight.

Pavel.8531:

Their stance in some stream not long ago was that EotM is a great success and exactly what they wanted.

…and that stance does not surprise me in the least

TheGrimm.5624:

People organizing to avoid fights though, that turns my stomach. Go to some PvE zone if you are completely unwilling to fight.

If only said PvE zones and dungeons weren’t nerfed so hard. If only flipping keeps wasn’t the best (and one of the few) way of obtaining dragonite, and flipping all objectives the best way of obtaining karma. People will optimize whatever can help them get to where they want faster, and EotM is no exception.

Full disclosure: I am in said guild, but I have not gone back to Edge for almost a month since my last alt hit 80. Just like I have zero issue with you defending, I have zero issue with coordinating to avoid fights and maximize rewards. Additionally, if your presence is hindering the progression of people on all sides, I have no issue if they band together to try to stop you. When pressure from defenders is too great, we would take a break or find another overflow. It’s recommended you do the same when your defense keeps getting shut down.

DaveGan.8065:

TheGrimm.5624:

People organizing to avoid fights though, that turns my stomach. Go to some PvE zone if you are completely unwilling to fight.

If only said PvE zones and dungeons weren’t nerfed so hard. If only flipping keeps wasn’t the best (and one of the few) way of obtaining dragonite, and flipping all objectives the best way of obtaining karma. People will optimize whatever can help them get to where they want faster, and EotM is no exception.

Full disclosure: I am in said guild, but I have not gone back to Edge for almost a month since my last alt hit 80. Just like I have zero issue with you defending, I have zero issue with coordinating to avoid fights and maximize rewards. Additionally, if your presence is hindering the progression of people on all sides, I have no issue if they band together to try to stop you. When pressure from defenders is too great, we would take a break or find another overflow. It’s recommended you do the same when your defense keeps getting shut down.

So you’re advocating enemy teams working together to kill members of your own side, because they dare to play the game as intended?

mathras.2450:

DaveGan.8065:

TheGrimm.5624:

People organizing to avoid fights though, that turns my stomach. Go to some PvE zone if you are completely unwilling to fight.

If only said PvE zones and dungeons weren’t nerfed so hard. If only flipping keeps wasn’t the best (and one of the few) way of obtaining dragonite, and flipping all objectives the best way of obtaining karma. People will optimize whatever can help them get to where they want faster, and EotM is no exception.

Full disclosure: I am in said guild, but I have not gone back to Edge for almost a month since my last alt hit 80. Just like I have zero issue with you defending, I have zero issue with coordinating to avoid fights and maximize rewards. Additionally, if your presence is hindering the progression of people on all sides, I have no issue if they band together to try to stop you. When pressure from defenders is too great, we would take a break or find another overflow. It’s recommended you do the same when your defense keeps getting shut down.

So you’re advocating enemy teams working together to kill members of your own side, because they dare to play the game as intended?

Don’t forget this is a multiplayer game. If you get in the way of people’s progress they will look for a way to run you over or knock you out.

As far as playing as intended, your motives can, will, and should always be called into question. If you’re killing bosses early in Boss Blitz, if you’re throwing down flame rams 1200 units from gates, if you’re deploying 100 ballistas in keeps, if you’re defending in EotM, people will try to determine why you’re doing such a thing.

There is not much ANet can do against trolls, because they can simply fake ignorance and say they’re new. This is why there will always be things outside of the scope of the lettering of the rules. As a result players have some expectation of policing themselves. That’s why the answer to you question is yes, the ends to justify the means.

Now stop crying, get off your fake moral high ground, and learn how to better place your own ACs and other siege.

Linking to a deleted reddit post in your signature of you impersonating someone in [EotM] isn’t helping your image any. Your cherrypicking of this post and complete ignorance of my previous post (written on your request, I might add) is also noted.

mathras.2450:

DaveGan.8065:

TheGrimm.5624:

People organizing to avoid fights though, that turns my stomach. Go to some PvE zone if you are completely unwilling to fight.

If only said PvE zones and dungeons weren’t nerfed so hard. If only flipping keeps wasn’t the best (and one of the few) way of obtaining dragonite, and flipping all objectives the best way of obtaining karma. People will optimize whatever can help them get to where they want faster, and EotM is no exception.

Full disclosure: I am in said guild, but I have not gone back to Edge for almost a month since my last alt hit 80. Just like I have zero issue with you defending, I have zero issue with coordinating to avoid fights and maximize rewards. Additionally, if your presence is hindering the progression of people on all sides, I have no issue if they band together to try to stop you. When pressure from defenders is too great, we would take a break or find another overflow. It’s recommended you do the same when your defense keeps getting shut down.

So you’re advocating enemy teams working together to kill members of your own side, because they dare to play the game as intended?

Honestly, if siege trolls, supply sappers, second account spies/ tag watchers and TS ddos attacks aren’t getting people in trouble in regular wvw, abusing eotm for profit isn’t gunna get you a slap on the wrist.

/close thread

DaveGan.8065:

mathras.2450:

DaveGan.8065:

TheGrimm.5624:

People organizing to avoid fights though, that turns my stomach. Go to some PvE zone if you are completely unwilling to fight.

If only said PvE zones and dungeons weren’t nerfed so hard. If only flipping keeps wasn’t the best (and one of the few) way of obtaining dragonite, and flipping all objectives the best way of obtaining karma. People will optimize whatever can help them get to where they want faster, and EotM is no exception.

Full disclosure: I am in said guild, but I have not gone back to Edge for almost a month since my last alt hit 80. Just like I have zero issue with you defending, I have zero issue with coordinating to avoid fights and maximize rewards. Additionally, if your presence is hindering the progression of people on all sides, I have no issue if they band together to try to stop you. When pressure from defenders is too great, we would take a break or find another overflow. It’s recommended you do the same when your defense keeps getting shut down.

So you’re advocating enemy teams working together to kill members of your own side, because they dare to play the game as intended?

Don’t forget this is a multiplayer game. If you get in the way of people’s progress they will look for a way to run you over or knock you out.

As far as playing as intended, your motives can, will, and should always be called into question. If you’re killing bosses early in Boss Blitz, if you’re throwing down flame rams 1200 units from gates, if you’re deploying 100 ballistas in keeps, if you’re defending in EotM, people will try to determine why you’re doing such a thing.

There is not much ANet can do against trolls, because they can simply fake ignorance and say they’re new. This is why there will always be things outside of the scope of the lettering of the rules. That’s why the answer to you question is yes, the ends to justify the means.

Now stop crying, get off your fake moral high ground, and learn how to better place your own ACs and other siege.

Linking to a deleted reddit post in your signature of you impersonating someone in [EotM] isn’t helping your image any. Your cherrypicking of this post and complete ignorance of my previous post (written on your request, I might add) is also noted.

So you genuinely believe that defending a keep in Edge of the Mists is “trolling”? If players weren’t supposed to defend, then there would be no cannons, mortars, burning oil…

Basically, what we’ve ascertained here is that you consider an aspect of gameplay which is completely intended by Anet as “trolling” and you’re willing to break rules in order to stop players from defending.

You’re also accusing me of various things based on, well, nothing at all.

The post in my signature that you claim is “fake” actually corresponds nicely with your own views on the matter – most peculiar.

Now, once again you’re attempting to hijack the thread and make it about you and your guild, with your personal attacks and slander.

I didn’t reply to your previous post because it didn’t address my initial post: you merely made a few excuses as to why people are karma training, and implored Anet not to nerf it.

What actually needs to happen is a comprehensive tweaking of the zone to ensure that ALL players – not just karma train players – can enjoy the area without fear of harassment and abuse. That could happen in the form of increased rewards for defending or killing players, or increased rewards in WvW in general – or a toning down of rewards for farming empty keeps, which surely can’t be what Anet intended the zone to be about, and feels very similar to exploiting, in this player’s opinion.

Trolling and being/feeling trolled are based on motive and perception, not action. This is not a single player game, and so your actions will bring consequences from the others you affect in the game.

You are being ganged up on because you are a bigger obstacle than the entire other side, and the other side considers you to be a bigger obstacle than everyone else on your side. With this common enemy, why wouldn’t they gang up on you, even if there might be a weakly stated and never enforced rule against it?

It is nice that players can finally do something against those whose motive is to derail. Back when Queensdale and Crown Pavilion were being trolled, there was nothing to be done because there was no kick button and no way to attack other players.

DaveGan.8065:

Trolling and being/feeling trolled are based on motive and perception, not action. This is not a single player game, and so your actions will bring consequences from the others you affect in the game.

You are being ganged up on because you are a bigger obstacle than the entire other side, and the other side considers you to be a bigger obstacle than everyone else on your side. With this common enemy, why wouldn’t they gang up on you, even if there might be a weakly stated and never enforced rule against it?

It is nice that players can finally do something against those whose motive is to derail. Back when Queensdale and Crown Pavilion were being trolled, there was nothing to be done because there was no kick button and no way to attack other players.

Here’s your mistake: you’re assuming you’re in the right, just because you’ve gathered a group of like-minded people together. If you were capable of thinking about this objectively, you would realise that you’re doing something that is not in the spirit of the game at all.

Me, and others who enjoy defending (there’s lots of people on every side in Edge of the Mists who enjoy it) are merely playing the game in the way it was intended. As I previously stated, we know that the game was intended to be played this way because there are siege weapons IN the keeps ready to be built. There’s even a reward for defending.

You hate defending because it gets in the way of your attempts to bypass a key element of WvW: killing other players. You hate defending because beating a group of defenders involves a little bit more thought than merely autoattacking in a zerg.

There is NOTHING to stop you, or anyone else, from defending your OWN keep. There’s nothing to stop you from spreading out instead of standing in a big bunch and wondering why that nasty arrow cart is killing you.

Defenders are not the problem in Edge of the Mists – the problem is that people like you have an entitled attitude and believe you “deserve” karma, experience and loot just for being there. It was exactly the same with the Queensdale train – except here, it appears certain people have found a way to stop people from playing the game through devious means – as you yourself have admitted with your “ends justify the means” spiel.

Once again – this thread isn’t about your guild, or you. It’s about Anet’s stance on karma training. You’re only weakening your position by continuing to post inflammatory comments here. If you want to contribute, you could try to find a solution that pleases everyone who plays in Edge of the Mists, not just the “majority” you perceive to be in the right.

If we are talking about the spirit of the game and immersion, consider [EotM] to be a network of spies and scouts. As color allegiance changes every week and cannot be considered voluntary by most measures, allegiance to the guild and allegiance to the self may conflict with allegiance to you who may be the same color as me (a hypothetical me, as I do not play EotM anymore). As a result, we defect and choose guild and self over you.

As far as a solution to karma training, I would like nothing more than for karma to be removed as a currency. I and other players do not want to feel forced to grind and train our way to progression.

If, on the other hand, rewards for defending were increased, people (us included) could continue to game the system, with “spies” and “scouts” in place to warn well in advance of incoming attacks. Every objective would be a virtual fortress, and we would simply take turns trading kills to trigger the defense reward.

This won’t stop until “trains” stop being one of the best pathways to rewards. On the other hand this is a problem for ANet, as they intend for Guild Wars to be a casual game with most of the rewards and progression attained through casual play.

So long as the more hardcore players continue to be bottlenecked into these casual modes, we will continue to game them to our advantage.

There really is nothing stopping anyone from forming their own guild (or group) and going in wiping the floor with them. Much like the 2vs1 that went on in Season 2, people argued till they were blue in the face about what was right or wrong, but the bottom line is, Anet will do nothing about it because what is fun for one person isn’t fun for another. If 2 servers wan’t to conspire (or in this case 3 with a particular guild), then so be it.

The thing with EoTM (the map) is that people go into karma train meaning they don’t seem to gear themselves for PvP (or trait for it either), at least that’s my experience when attacking them judging by how much damage I do. It doesn’t take much effort to organize a group, gear yourself for PvP and semi-coordinate yourself and easily take out groups 2-3x your size. My guardian alone yesterday I think won a 6 or a 7vs1 after our group got jumped.

Now given I suck at PvP (but I am geared as a tanky min/max) type, it doesn’t take much to take out players if geared and traited for it. If you wan’t to counter EoTM, grab a group, gear yourself, go in and wipe the floor with them. I think WvW guilds from time to time do just that to anyone there.

WHo fights in EoTM??

Lord Kuru.3685:

• The megaserver nature of EoTM ensures it has no community.
• No community means there’s no “team spirit.”
• No team spirit means no one cares about winning or losing.
• No one caring about winning or losing means 24/7 karma train.

EoTM’s massive failure is actually a great lesson on the importance of community. Of course Anet didn’t learn that when they used EoTM as a beta for megaservers.

Perfect example of no community. So many of my friends have left since megaserver. I feel I will follow. Areanet does not promote community, team spirit or decent behaviour of fellow players. Next game plz.