Guild Wars 2

Skill can only get you so far in this game of downstate fast rezzing and limitless rally from one stomp.

Its broken, still good small groups can do ok, they would do much better with a fix to the rally system. 1 stomp max two rez.

tpvp tactics would evaporate the moment they got run over by a zerg.

end of story.

Benjamin.7893:

Jscull.2514:

The few times a guild known for tpvp or spvp has come out in wvw, our 5 man absolutely pooped on them. Bunker wars is not skill…its just who can bounce each other out of the circle more. Player vs player is open world combat….sorry but pvp arenas came after open world combat platforms.

Spvp has teams not guilds.

Lol nice microscope. Call it whatever ud like, our 5 man guild smoked them.

Sola.7250:

I think WvW is slowing turning into PvP, which is not good!

Are you talking about hold the capture point and forget about fighting this is more important syndrome? Cuz it’s not slow, it’s already there and it’s extremely boring.

Gtz @ op for nice troll post, you achieved what you wanted.

But we all know there’s only one REAL pvper

Ken.9018:

Since most of the skillful players are in Heart of the Mists, imagine all the hardcore tpvp players decided to form a WvWvW guild, since they are the REAL pvp players, I wonder how awesome the guild would be in WvWvW

It would royally fail.

90% of the tPvP’ers have ego’s the size of 16 year olds.

They can’t work together on large scale, would get bored in an hour because they all have the attention span equaling the length of a tPvP match and would wind up kittening about how imbalanced WvW builds are, ending right back in the Mists.

On top of that, tPvP’ers are good at 1v1’s, maybe 1v2’s.

The real ‘skilled’ players always end up in WvW.

PvP is static. Once you kids learn this, you’ll come over to the dark side.

Troll harder.

I think the constant assertion that PvP players are more skilled is because they need to reassure themselves and, like Amins said, their ego.

Sil.4560:

I think the constant assertion that PvP players are more skilled is because they need to reassure themselves and, like Amins said, their ego.

Nah. Some of them are very good in small group scenarios.

The problem is that in WvW, those kinds of things are limited to roaming teams…which is a ton of fun…but wouldn’t stand a chance in any sort of real large-scale engagement. Organized zerg tactics are ENTIRELY different than small group combat tactics.

You have to sacrifice certain power builds in wvw that will not work. The most successful large scale groups suck in smaller fights because of their builds. A lot is focused on AOE attacks, heals on kills, and condition removal. AOE attacks are usually weaker but when you have 30 people doing it, they add up. Once people drop, you are unkillable because of healing on kills. If a tpvp came in using their power or tanking builds, they would get slaughtered.

I play both S/Tpvp and WvW, problem here is, when you’re in T1 – 4 maybe even 5 servers are so big the small fights are hardly seen. This gives the impression that WvW is a Zerg fest and to a certain degree it is. In Tpvp you get the feeling that you’re skilled bla bla bla, but in reality is all about bunkering a point and coordinating the next attack/defense. In WvW you do the very same crap just in a different scale and with siege weapons and what not.

Spvp got a lot less variety of gear and stats mix also since it is a domination style game, class balance is lean towards the classes that can bunker the best or CC/support the best, thus leaving other classes in the shadows. Both take their own skill level, yet just as I can tell 7 out of 10 S/T pvp player suck at pvping, I can also say 9.5 out of 10 WvW player suck at pvping, but on the WvW side many of these players are people looking for free Exp/Karma and gold when their team is winning, thus giving the WvW players a bad name.

Meglobob.8620:

People who are great at tpvp suck big time at WvW, seen it on LOADS of occasions, ‘I am a top 1000 pvp’er’, ‘why do I die all the time’…

I love farming tpvpers in WvW even more than I like farming players with legendarys…

Both groups are free walking loot bags…

I feel the need to reply about your use of “players with legendary weapons” a lot of them myself included are players who play enough to aquire them, meaning they also play enough to get very good at their classes in wvw. granted this isn’t all of them but id like to face you in a 1v1 and then you can decide if youd like to rephrase that comment. -priest of lyssa

They would all rage against a single D/P thief.

I have an example before me – our raid leader (Richmond), who is atm r45 tPvP and former member of top tPvP team that was unfortunately disbanded long ago. This however drew him to WvW. And boy if I’m glad it did.

The core question is, if there is that little extra in tPvP beast that allows them to extrapolate their 5v5/8v8 experience to larger scale. If they are smart enough to apply their tPvP knowledge of classes, synergy and micro to a broader scale – that’s a winner hands down.

However, if they keep to their duel/small scale/elitist mentality – well, they still will be valuable in some aspects of WvW. But from the PoV of WvW veteran they would be limited no matter how high their personal skill is.

Lyonell.1753:

I play both S/Tpvp and WvW, problem here is, when you’re in T1 – 4 maybe even 5 servers are so big the small fights are hardly seen. This gives the impression that WvW is a Zerg fest and to a certain degree it is. In Tpvp you get the feeling that you’re skilled bla bla bla, but in reality is all about bunkering a point and coordinating the next attack/defense. In WvW you do the very same crap just in a different scale and with siege weapons and what not.

Spvp got a lot less variety of gear and stats mix also since it is a domination style game, class balance is lean towards the classes that can bunker the best or CC/support the best, thus leaving other classes in the shadows. Both take their own skill level, yet just as I can tell 7 out of 10 S/T pvp player suck at pvping, I can also say 9.5 out of 10 WvW player suck at pvping, but on the WvW side many of these players are people looking for free Exp/Karma and gold when their team is winning, thus giving the WvW players a bad name.

Dont know who you are dude, but I concur…Well said, its not a shot at anyone, it is simply the truth with the community of GW2, just not natural or experienced (for the most part) pvpers.

Wow. Really?
People never cease to surprise me.
The whole talk about WvW being the “real pvp”?
People from tPvP being lootbags and only know how to push people off a point?

“The real ‘skilled’ players always end up in WvW.
PvP is static. Once you kids learn this, you’ll come over to the dark side.”

I don’t even know what to say, i am completely speechless. A whole bunch of people just went full kitten in this thread.

Just.. Wow.

A guild of sPvP players in WvW would be a freight train through the borderlands and steamroll everything in their path (PERIOD)

Stylo.6259:

A guild of sPvP players in WvW would be a freight train through the borderlands and steamroll everything in their path (PERIOD)

You mean mobs?

I’m pretty sure that most WvW guilds have a lot of players who venture in Tpvp from time to time. I know it’s the case for our guild. That said, the two PvP formats are so different from each other that it really doesn’t matter that much. Zerg busting is very different than small scale fighting.

A good Tpvp player will defy be a great roamer tho.

IDarko.4709:

I’m pretty sure that most WvW guilds have a lot of players who venture in Tpvp from time to time. I know it’s the case for our guild. That said, the two PvP formats are so different from each other that it really doesn’t matter that much. Zerg busting is very different than small scale fighting.

A good Tpvp player will defy be a great roamer tho.

That because roamers and 5 manners are 2 different skill lvls of pvp…real 5 manners womp on “roamers”

I find this thread hilarious. TPVP players are all about the 1vs1 and roaming. WvW is about taking objectives, placing siege and having chemistry as a guild. TPVP players dont stand a chance there just like the average WvW player would not stand a chance in TPVP because we dont spec for 1 vs 1.

Let’s be honest guys: Red Guard would still wipe that guild;)

I’ve played a fair bit of tpvp last year (r45) and a little bit of wvw the last month or so (r42). There’s no real difference in skill for most regular players, whichever one they prefer. You do see a lot more guys in wvw who are mainly pve focused, but I’m not really talking about them.

There’s no question that the top 200 or so tpvpers are significantly better than anything I’ve encountered in wvw though. The only wvw guilds I’ve faced so far would field pretty average tournament teams.

On the other hand, I used to run very successful AVs for 2 of my wow servers, plus lead a top rvr guild in warhammer. I thought I was quite good at leading large pvp groups, but some of the commanders have blown me away with how well they read and predict the fight. Most are just doing the obvious and sensible thing, but a few are simply brilliant.

Plus there’s a few people around who play both anyway.

Stylo.6259:

A guild of sPvP players in WvW would be a freight train through the borderlands and steamroll everything in their path (PERIOD)

LOL! I invite you to try that brilliant idea. When you’re picking yourself up off the floor…then we’ll talk about who just got steamrolled.

Velron.3729:

Lol @ all this they are the “real” PVP players.

tPVP is more about moving between points to create the 3v2 in your favor than it is about actual PVP.

Open field WvW fighting is more PVP than tPVP ever will be until it gets a mode other than conquest borefest.

Lol no. The micro of all the top spvpers is miles higher than any of the best players in the best wvw guilds. Easy enough to show by just going 1v1 2v2 3v3 etc against them. Considering I played both I can judge it easily, and considering I brought spvp players in GvG against RG when they had under 2-3k wvw kills and they performed excellently, I would say there is little doubt the real pvp is still in tournament play.

If there were 20 tpvpers who made a guild to WvW, they would pretty comfortably stomp any guild in WvW at present.

Righteous Sen.1053:

Velron.3729:

Lol @ all this they are the “real” PVP players.

tPVP is more about moving between points to create the 3v2 in your favor than it is about actual PVP.

Open field WvW fighting is more PVP than tPVP ever will be until it gets a mode other than conquest borefest.

Lol, no, just no.

Tpvp is a game of skill, while wvw is more a game of, who has the biggest group and can swarm the other.

Yeah, that’s why good wvw guilds can wipe zergs twice their size

Ken.9018:

Since most of the skillful players are in Heart of the Mists, imagine all the hardcore tpvp players decided to form a WvWvW guild, since they are the REAL pvp players, I wonder how awesome the guild would be in WvWvW

They would get pwned if they tried to play tPvP and WvW the same. They would likely do well if they just took a group of 5 people and roamed with it.

They only need to adapt. Some of players cannot do this. As the result: whine, TPvP player sees WvW is bad, WvW player sees TPvP is bad. But if TPvP player can adapt to WvW environment, TPvP player will surely win every fight. (which is rare, most of them cannot adapt to WvW environment).

PS: WvW build can do well in PvP environment, its also vice-versa.

JesseBensen.4817:

I feel the need to reply about your use of “players with legendary weapons” a lot of them myself included are players who play enough to aquire them, meaning they also play enough to get very good at their classes in wvw. granted this isn’t all of them but id like to face you in a 1v1 and then you can decide if youd like to rephrase that comment. -priest of lyssa

Haha, let him keep trying. I often go into battle wearing three legendaries just to draw attention. It makes things that much more exciting.

Jackie.1829:

Lol no. The micro of all the top spvpers is miles higher than any of the best players in the best wvw guilds.

Deeds, not words. This is just more sad rationalization and posturing. Most of you are just prattling off nonsense about how s/tPvPers are inherently better with no compelling rationale. I don’t really care what mode of play my enemy prefers, they drop bags just the same.

Having done a bit of both, i’d say tpvp requires a lot lot more skill on a personal level. In terms of organization, most of the “skill” a wvwer has goes to following the commander. With multiple knowledgeable commanders and receptive tpvp players, I’d say the tpvp guilds would win (after a bit of training), because these are guys that have focused on individual skill and seeing and understanding other classes/builds’ skills at an individual level. They are also players who like to experiment with builds.

In reality however, a guild made up of tpvpers who do not have experience in wvw will fail hard because they do not know/ cannot adjust easily from builds that focus on 1v1 or 1v2 sustenance/ccing to being a part of many v many, in a situation where skill lag is rampant, where siege weapons are used/ built, how to manage supplies/give relevant info to commander, where terrain varies and matters, where number differences are in the tens, where food matter ( a lot), where sigils/runes may work differently as well as healing / crit dmg scaling /boon duration, and where self sacrifice is needed (More, lots more). They may also not know when to engage/ run and where, how to maneuver a large group of people to attack/ run/other things, different class roles, and when to bail and hit another place for more server/zerg profit (and other wvw tactics). It is a matter of experience. (Also, tpvpers would hate queues).

Ideally, you want a guild of people who both tpvp and wvw, because they would be able to act / fight better on an individual level and understand what other people are doing better (to give the commander better feedback), while being a competent (very large) team player who knows how things work in wvw. This may be kind of obvious, but I believe tpvpers can be made into superior wvw players if they put in the time and experience to learn under good wvw commanders, while reg. wvw players can learn a lot as well from tpvping and understanding firsthand how powerful some class builds/skills are, and spotting them easily and early to make decisions to confront/ avoid in smaller scale situations.

Spvpers/Tpvpers would make great roamers/roaming groups, however.

Pardon my run-ons

^ This. Also I have to add that such players must be from the tPvP top, because if a player has a win rate of 1 to 1 or worse, it is difficult to expect the better performance from him in other kinds of activities. Good player can adapt and perform good anywhere, bad player will stay bad. tPvP experience by itself means almost nothing.

Raptured, your post presumes that players who primarily WvW do not focus on individual skill during their time there without concrete evidence to prove that it is indeed the case.

Skill is skill, tPvP or not. “Champion X” titles die just the same as anyone else and has no inherent statistical advantages. These claims of higher skill are nothing but personal theory; it is a desperate grasp to rationalize the play of a specific PvP game mode as having distinct purpose despite the fact that you ultimately never have a clue how skilled an enemy invader is until you engage them. This is a game of limited scenarios and predictable combinations of decisions and knowledge is not limited to tPvP.

Although I suppose if people are arrogant enough to believe that they have an advantage, then let that be just one more weakness on the pile. In essence, I agree with the last things you said, Rednik. A player is made good by their adaptability and overall knowledge and how that allows them to perform in the moment. tPvP itself is merely one means of attaining similar knowledge of how to fight.

From my experience, WvWers are the bottom of the bottom in terms of mastering their class and playing skillfully. Having individual skill plays such a little role for most WvWers. Most of you run at the mere sight of a single enemy player without even engaging them.

So I wholeheartedly believe if the best Spvpers decided to form a guild and only WvW, most WvWers will be on these forums complaining about dieing to Spvpers and they should go back to Spvp.

If you’re generalizing, you may as well consider the fact that a percentage of WvWers are even upscaled players. =p

Sil.4560:

If you’re generalizing, you may as well consider the fact that a percentage of WvWers are even upscaled players. =p

I’m referring to 80s in WvW. I don’t ever count upscaled players cause it’s not fair to include them in my opinion. I only solo roam in WvW, and I’m sure other solo roamers could probably attest to this too, but most WvWers, specifically zerglings, are scrubs at playing their class and are an easy kill any time they’re caught outside of their zerg. And I’m totally baffled by all the people saying they would kitten the people that mostly do structured pvp. This is the skill order in this game. Spvpers > PvEers > NPCs > WvWers (zerglings). Again, this is only my opinion that is based on my experience as being a solo roamer for the last 7 months.

Hot Boy.7138:

I only solo roam in WvW, and I’m sure other solo roamers could probably attest to this too, but most WvWers, specifically zerglings, are scrubs at playing their class and are an easy kill any time they’re caught outside of their zerg. And I’m totally baffled by all the people saying they would kitten the people that mostly do structured pvp. This is the skill order in this game. Spvpers > PvEers > NPCs > WvWers (zerglings). Again, this is only my opinion that is based on my experience as being a solo roamer for the last 7 months.

Lol, i can’t even facepalm, because facepalm is not enough to express the absurdity of this statement. Have you ever heard about the difference between roaming and zerg specs?

Hot Boy.7138:

I’m referring to 80s in WvW. I don’t ever count upscaled players cause it’s not fair to include them in my opinion. I only solo roam in WvW, and I’m sure other solo roamers could probably attest to this too, but most WvWers, specifically zerglings, are scrubs at playing their class and are an easy kill any time they’re caught outside of their zerg. And I’m totally baffled by all the people saying they would kitten the people that mostly do structured pvp. This is the skill order in this game. Spvpers > PvEers > NPCs > WvWers (zerglings). Again, this is only my opinion that is based on my experience as being a solo roamer for the last 7 months.

I don’t count them, but if you’re going to make generalizations like your absurd skill order which is obviously incorrect (a zergling is obviously going to be smarter than an NPC), it may as well be stated.

You also apparently make no distinction between a WvW player with skill and a WvW player who follows a zerg and many of your categories have significant overlap potential. But by all means, continue believing in your arrogant and utterly subjective hierarchy of skill. It makes no matter to me what game mode you prefer to glorify the most because as I stated you die just the same.

Rednik.3809:

Hot Boy.7138:

I only solo roam in WvW, and I’m sure other solo roamers could probably attest to this too, but most WvWers, specifically zerglings, are scrubs at playing their class and are an easy kill any time they’re caught outside of their zerg. And I’m totally baffled by all the people saying they would kitten the people that mostly do structured pvp. This is the skill order in this game. Spvpers > PvEers > NPCs > WvWers (zerglings). Again, this is only my opinion that is based on my experience as being a solo roamer for the last 7 months.

Lol, i can’t even facepalm, because facepalm is not enough to express the absurdity of this statement. Have you ever heard about the difference between roaming and zerg specs?

I agree – best zerging specs are not the best roaming specs. In the higher tier wvw environment where zerging gets u a lot more bags / rewards than roaming, i like running a spec that, although I cannot 1v1 with, i can sustain well and front line in my zerg (with my guard). When i get stopped for a while by a player wanting to 1v1 me on my way to a zerg, i generally ignore them and keep going because they cannot burst me down and it is more important for me to catch up to my zerg and get bags than it is to fight this one guy, who can definitely run away from me easily if the tides turned in my favor. The 1v1ing/small scale should be left to the roamers/duelists who really want to do such a thing.

Also, @sil, my generalization was not “desperate”, I simply made the assumption that when I said tpvpers, i meant decent tpvpers, not people who touched it only a couple of times and lost the majority of the time.

The reality about skill in wvw zerging, however, is that the requirement is minimal to do well – at least on the surface that hot boy seems to be speaking of (living/dying and killing/getting killed). All you need is a decent build and the ability to follow the commander to do decently in a zerg and farm bags. I’ll have you know that it is really easy to go on my guardian, follow the commander/zerg, and just press 1 to farm massive bags and not die (unless the zerg wipes). Small effort, large reward especially compared to pvping – but i’m not exactly complaining about it because i like the reward. Same deal with spamming wells / frosty plague on my necro.

tpvp’rs would get wiped versus an even number wvw guild; the tactics/builds are different.

Many of you are under the assumption that the player can’t change their mindset from tpvp. Good players are good players and bad ones are bad ones. Most good players do very well in wvw when transitioning from tpvp. WvW has a very low learning curve if you could call it that. 15 minutes in wvw or spending sometime in pve as well and it’s not hard for them to adapt. In general tpvp players skill level is usually higher. It wouldn’t take much for them to use their brain and change their build up and play differently in wvw. A guild full of good tpvp players who make that tiny bit of effort to change a little for wvw would absolutely destroy their enemy. Most bad tpvp players who do so poorly in wvw are bad players anyways. That or they can’t think for themselves or adapt. Those are plain and simple bad players.

A player who can play one area of this game exceptionally well will eventually excel in other areas. A good sPvP player wouldn’t play WvW with a sPvP build. He would realize what it takes to be successful in WvW and adapt.

A guild consisting of good, coordinated players who play the game more than the majority of the people will always be successful.

When you have a guild that actually knows how to use dodge rolls, stabilities, combo fields, generally how to stay alive, it will be very tough to take down. Most guilds in WvW actually just stack, melee train and press 1 which takes no great amount of skill.

The leader making the decisions usually makes the difference of winning and losing in WvW battles, not individual effort, but when all the individuals are strong, recognize situations without the leader’s orders and know how to play their role in the game very well, they will be even more effective.

Sil.4560:

I think the constant assertion that PvP players are more skilled is because they need to reassure themselves and, like Amins said, their ego.

WvW is not like spvp. Every successful/effective build for every class is self reliant.

Meaning it has to have a balance of dps and surviv (no glass cannons), condition removal, stun breaker etc. This makes spvp kittening boring because they removed the healer class>>lack of synergy>>boring pvp.

In WvW these self reliant build in a group of 5 would not do well against a group double to 3 times their size who are all geared 80s.

They need group builds to maximize one direction of play from their class while supported by their team mates. They would learn to adapt as they did in spvp but few are willing to change their build.

Downed state AND AOE limit AND Lack of a healer class in WvW -I don’t want healer reliant pve content, mind you- LEADS TO less effective group play and making some classes less effective in 5-10 man organized groups due to lack of relatively good AOE access for some classes.

As others have stated, WvW and s/tPvP are two completely separate games. The mechanics of one do not translate to another, for the most part.

Just as a tPvP guild/team will know the mechanics of tPvP and use them to their advantage, a WvW guild that knows the mechanics of WvW will use them. A guild of 20 can very well defeat a zerg more than three times their force by correctly utilizing terrain, choke points and sieging up that choke point appropriately.

One is no more skilled than the other, they’re simply skilled at something different.

The best tpvp/wvw players would be the ones who have experience in both sections.

I play both WvW and tPvp and I enjoy them both. You are all hating on the tpvpers yet they do good in their own section, just as you do in your wvw sections.
If you were caught out in wvw by yourself, there is the possibility you are gonna die to them. If you are in your zerg and you spot a tpvper alone, there is the possibility they will die to you, but you should have better things to do than chase 1 man.
About tpvpers complaining about thieves, alot of tpvp players use the exact same build, play style, and everything else, so why is there a need to cry.

There is no point arguing about who is the better player of the game.

Is that guild roaming as five – ten players? Scariest force in WvW.

P.s. kittened filter.

Righteous Sen.1053:

Velron.3729:

Lol @ all this they are the “real” PVP players.

tPVP is more about moving between points to create the 3v2 in your favor than it is about actual PVP.

Open field WvW fighting is more PVP than tPVP ever will be until it gets a mode other than conquest borefest.

Lol, no, just no.

Tpvp is a game of skill, while wvw is more a game of, who has the biggest group and can swarm the other.

Oh that never happens in tPvP.

If there was more actual personal skill involved in the majority of wvw….you would see less people relying on the amount of people they run around with. That is a simple fact. Not my opinion.

Granted there are some situations where really talented players run with bigger zergs, VERY VERY infrequently the case.

Jscull.2514:

If there was more actual personal skill involved in the majority of wvw….you would see less people relying on the amount of people they run around with. That is a simple fact. Not my opinion.

Granted there are some situations where really talented players run with bigger zergs, VERY VERY infrequently the case.

It is hard to tell individual skill in a zerg when it is subsumed in the mass of players. That does not mean there are not skilled players in a zerg.

Tenebrous.2451:

Jscull.2514:

If there was more actual personal skill involved in the majority of wvw….you would see less people relying on the amount of people they run around with. That is a simple fact. Not my opinion.

Granted there are some situations where really talented players run with bigger zergs, VERY VERY infrequently the case.

It is hard to tell individual skill in a zerg when it is subsumed in the mass of players. That does not mean there are not skilled players in a zerg.

Which brings me back to my original point, “More skillful players in general will rely less on masses (subsuming them)”

And in GW2, thats not the case for the most part.

Jscull.2514:

Which brings me back to my original point, “More skillful players in general will rely less on masses (subsuming them)”

And in GW2, thats not the case for the most part.

I would only consider myself “above average,” which will automatically mean my opinion is dismissed by those who consider themselves “elite.”

Either way, I get just as much satisfaction from solo roaming as I do running in a semi-organized zerg. Meaning, no voip or anything like that, just people who are mostly able to use combo fields without overlapping, stick together, interrupt heals, etc etc.

Overall though, I fail to see how playing against other players in one arena could yield a perspective where they are somehow significantly better across the board than another arena that has more dynamics and more possibilities. The actual skills themselves are pretty much the same in function.

The biggest difference is that organizing larger and larger groups of people becomes exponentially more difficult as the numbers of players in a given group rises.

Only thing I can think is thakittens confirmation bias (from both sides), all sustained by the fact that WvW inherently has more players and the higher likelihood of coming across someone who is new.

I would say the percentage of skilled vs new is the same, overall, in both T/SPvP and WvW. It just happens on a much larger, much less insular scale in WvW, which directly leads into coming across more people who do not know what they are doing.

Someone who takes a quick glance at either S/TPvP and dubveedub will likely come to the conclusion that one is somehow less skilled than the other.

Its quite funny either way!

^uh I roll a guardian for wvw and i like getting wvw ranks and loot bags/rewards, so I follow a large zerg if/when i go to wvw – the rewards are simply better, running with the guild on ts is more fun, you won’t complain about being faced off with a larger roaming group/zerg, and the healway build is simply not fun for me … i bet the same goes for many others as well. If you really want to use your skill, you’d be in tpvp with a premade or better yet, play another game with a more competitive pvp.