Guild Wars 2

The changes to stealth and init wil be good for thieves. Case closed. Just a few baddies will quit, which is healthy for the game.

Lets ask ourselves this:

Anet claims that Rangers cannot have their Longbow range extended over 1500 because it will in fact “Break the game”

Well.. lets assume that Anet allows 2000 range for Rangers in WvW only (like I think they should)

Now, who wins that fight? A 2000 LB ranger vs a half ways decent stealth thief..? What mechanic is really game breaking here..

Edit – I’ve always said thieves need much more at their disposal to be useful in group fights. This is where I think stealth effectiveness should be reduced while group effectiveness should be increased.

I ust can’t figure out how you pros can even hit thief? I barely manage get thief in target before he stealth again and seems to me that they can do this whole time.

Junkpile.7439:

I ust can’t figure out how you pros can even hit thief?

You don’t need to have a target selected for most attacks to work. Every cleaving attack, PBAoE and ground-targetted AoE will still work against invisbile players. If you hit something, the hits will show up in the battle log, and in case of an attack-chain (many #1 skills have different effects if you hit an opponent more than once in a row) you may also be able to watch the skill animation to tell if you hit something.

Also it was stated already, that most thieves who use stealth need to be in melee range (130 units which is really close) if they don’t use high cooldown utility spells.
D/P builds are cheese, and won’t do be able to do enough damage over time if you’re not afk-ing. For D/D the most common rotation is pretty obvious: Mug, Cloak’n’Dagger, get behind you, Heartseeker, #1, #1, #1, C’n’D (or any other stealth skill), rinse and repeat. You can dodge, blind or block C’n’D easily which will waste 6 initiative (= 6 seconds) for nothing.
If the thief is low on health, he will try to use the stealth for some health regeneration. C’n’D cloaks for 3 seconds. Just count to 2.5 and then dodge (or in case you lack the endurance, just turn around for some mediocre damage income and laugh at the thief). If you’d wait another 0.25 seconds you can also dodge C’n’D attempts if the thief isn’t going for the backstab but tries to regenerate more health in stealth.
If you have minions or pets, you can also try to position yourself at the same spot (slightly in front of them), so that the backstab will hit the pet or minion instead.

Always remember, that D/D and D/P need to be in melee range to do damage. The damage is greatly reduced if you don’t get hit in your back. Just anticipate where the thief is and penetrate your surrounding with conditions and / or (melee) dps.

Also: track shadow steps. If the thief returns to the origin of a shadow step, the white circle (indicating the shadow step origin) will vanish.

I’m actually surprised there aren’t skills that hard counter stealth after it has been turned on. Most MMOs I have played that have stealth in PvP have a hard counter to them. In one, Neosteam: The Shattered Continent, while the thief classes could go stealth and do a massive attack to a player, the machinist classes held their counter. A single skill called Detection Shot, which revealed any thief in stealth within a certain distance of the player. It also put the equivalent of cripple on the thieves it hit. But alas, you couldn’t spam stealth like you could in this game.

Makes me wish they would take a hint from that game and give a hard counter to stealth on a skill (AoE around the player) for WvW only that would shut off stealth for at least 10 seconds (not the kitten stealth disruption crap, which costs too much and can easily be set off by a thief to avoid a mesmer hitting it). Would this be game breaking? Not IMO, especially since if you’re using such a skill in WvW, you’re not aiming for thieves, you’re aiming for mesmers.

RyuDragnier.9476:

I’m actually surprised there aren’t skills that hard counter stealth after it has been turned on. Most MMOs I have played that have stealth in PvP have a hard counter to them. In one, Neosteam: The Shattered Continent, while the thief classes could go stealth and do a massive attack to a player, the machinist classes held their counter. A single skill called Detection Shot, which revealed any thief in stealth within a certain distance of the player. It also put the equivalent of cripple on the thieves it hit. But alas, you couldn’t spam stealth like you could in this game.

Makes me wish they would take a hint from that game and give a hard counter to stealth on a skill (AoE around the player) for WvW only that would shut off stealth for at least 10 seconds (not the kitten stealth disruption crap, which costs too much and can easily be set off by a thief to avoid a mesmer hitting it). Would this be game breaking? Not IMO, especially since if you’re using such a skill in WvW, you’re not aiming for thieves, you’re aiming for mesmers.

I think it would have to be something that you need to trait for but I like the idea.

dreztina.4820:

Stealth has been broken in every MMO I’ve played. It’s completely idiotic to give unchecked invisibility in a setting where knowing where your opponent is is 90% of the battle. The rogue archetype is ALWAYS kittenedly overpowered because stealth itself is overpowered. It should have been abandoned long ago, but sadly, there are too many people who get off on facerolling invisible characters for devs to risk not including it.

This person gets it. The games industry/game developers need to get a kittening clue.

RyuDragnier.9476:

I’m actually surprised there aren’t skills that hard counter stealth after it has been turned on. Most MMOs I have played that have stealth in PvP have a hard counter to them. In one, Neosteam: The Shattered Continent, while the thief classes could go stealth and do a massive attack to a player, the machinist classes held their counter. A single skill called Detection Shot, which revealed any thief in stealth within a certain distance of the player. It also put the equivalent of cripple on the thieves it hit. But alas, you couldn’t spam stealth like you could in this game.

Makes me wish they would take a hint from that game and give a hard counter to stealth on a skill (AoE around the player) for WvW only that would shut off stealth for at least 10 seconds (not the kitten stealth disruption crap, which costs too much and can easily be set off by a thief to avoid a mesmer hitting it). Would this be game breaking? Not IMO, especially since if you’re using such a skill in WvW, you’re not aiming for thieves, you’re aiming for mesmers.

Something like that would definitely be used against thieves, and 10 seconds reveal is ridiculous. You might as well implement an ability to ‘down target thief’ and be done with it. Unless they completely rework the thief class, making changes that specifically counters stealth like that (changes to abilities that actually are worth taking, unlike Sic’ Em) will render any dagger mainhand thief completely worthless. Maeggle’s last post had some good points on how you can perform well against a D/D thief, and players on any class with a similar skill level as a D/D or D/P player (especially after the perma stealth fix) can defeat them. Further nerfing would be uncalled for, but I guess it would make the ‘average’ WvWer happy, so he’s less prone to be ganked on his way to the blob where he can just mindlessly spam the nr 1 key again.

Julie Yann.5379:

Thieves aresenal is full of cheap shots and have zero respect for players choosing that playstyle and abusing those mechanics. Personally, I think that stealth cheapens the game and should have never been implemented the way it was.

…said the warrior (looking at your older posts)

ROFLMAO

ye lets go play the more respectful class, the WARRIOR!!!!1!!11!!!!oneone!!11!!

This is the kind of people who keep crying about thieves and should be enough to close this junky thread and stop answering.

mrmadhaze.8706:

Julie Yann.5379:

Thieves aresenal is full of cheap shots and have zero respect for players choosing that playstyle and abusing those mechanics. Personally, I think that stealth cheapens the game and should have never been implemented the way it was.

…said the warrior (looking at your older posts)

ROFLMAO

ye lets go play the more respectful class, the WARRIOR!!!!1!!11!!!!oneone!!11!!

This is the kind of people who keep crying about thieves and should be enough to close this junky thread and stop answering.

That is an obvious troll but that’s fine, trolls have the right to voice their opinions too. Yes, I’ve played warrior since launch, I’m not one of those fair weather FOTM faceroller and I don’t play those cheesy stun lock builds either. After sticking through 6+ months of being the “lolz, look a warrior, kill it” class the slight appearance of OPness we have now is very welcome. Although, a well played/built mesmer, engi, necro, and thief are way stronger than any of the so called OP warrior builds (except maybe the PvP Hambow, that one is kind of ridiculously strong). I also don’t sneak up and gank people unawares. I see every encounter as a challenge, I make sure they see me coming and if they run before engaging I let them.

Okaishi.8320:

RyuDragnier.9476:

I’m actually surprised there aren’t skills that hard counter stealth after it has been turned on. Most MMOs I have played that have stealth in PvP have a hard counter to them. In one, Neosteam: The Shattered Continent, while the thief classes could go stealth and do a massive attack to a player, the machinist classes held their counter. A single skill called Detection Shot, which revealed any thief in stealth within a certain distance of the player. It also put the equivalent of cripple on the thieves it hit. But alas, you couldn’t spam stealth like you could in this game.

Makes me wish they would take a hint from that game and give a hard counter to stealth on a skill (AoE around the player) for WvW only that would shut off stealth for at least 10 seconds (not the kitten stealth disruption crap, which costs too much and can easily be set off by a thief to avoid a mesmer hitting it). Would this be game breaking? Not IMO, especially since if you’re using such a skill in WvW, you’re not aiming for thieves, you’re aiming for mesmers.

Something like that would definitely be used against thieves, and 10 seconds reveal is ridiculous. You might as well implement an ability to ‘down target thief’ and be done with it. Unless they completely rework the thief class, making changes that specifically counters stealth like that (changes to abilities that actually are worth taking, unlike Sic’ Em) will render any dagger mainhand thief completely worthless. Maeggle’s last post had some good points on how you can perform well against a D/D thief, and players on any class with a similar skill level as a D/D or D/P player (especially after the perma stealth fix) can defeat them. Further nerfing would be uncalled for, but I guess it would make the ‘average’ WvWer happy, so he’s less prone to be ganked on his way to the blob where he can just mindlessly spam the nr 1 key again.

this is the kind of arrogance that gets our class constantly nerfed. no compromising, just call everyone who hates the abuse of perma stealth (Anet’s phraseology, not mine) bad players. keep it up. Your attitude towards players who ask for balance just foster more hatred and more nerfs.

Sanduskel.1850:

this is the kind of arrogance that gets our class constantly nerfed. no compromising, just call everyone who hates the abuse of perma stealth (Anet’s phraseology, not mine) bad players. keep it up. Your attitude towards players who ask for balance just foster more hatred and more nerfs.

What arrogance? I’m not calling people bad for hating perma stealth, I’m calling out players who don’t bother to try and learn how to play against thieves. Please read before making these replies with your usual nonsense.

All I ask for is an effective counter.

I hit a thief with cripple…they stealth and shake it off. I hit a thief with Daze, they stealth and shake it off. I hit a thief with Entangle (my Elite Skill) they stealth and shake it off…then I get hit twice and die.

Where is the balance?

Okaishi.8320:

Sanduskel.1850:

this is the kind of arrogance that gets our class constantly nerfed. no compromising, just call everyone who hates the abuse of perma stealth (Anet’s phraseology, not mine) bad players. keep it up. Your attitude towards players who ask for balance just foster more hatred and more nerfs.

What arrogance? I’m not calling people bad for hating perma stealth, I’m calling out players who don’t bother to try and learn how to play against thieves. Please read before making these replies with your usual nonsense.

you and other thieves are constantly chanting l2p to anyone who questions broken thief mechanics. you shall reap what you sow.

I still like the warhammer medium armor class on order side. They had a stealth too but had to use it with caution and the class wasn’t completely build around that stealth.

gebrechen.5643:

I still like the warhammer medium armor class on order side. They had a stealth too but had to use it with caution and the class wasn’t completely build around that stealth.

WAR was a good example of what stealth should be. It was used to get into position to attack vulnerable targets, not as a zero skill defense and get out of jail free card. You also lost action points (initiative in GW2) while in stealth and didn’t have stupid burst from stealth.

If you played poorly and walked in front of people, they could see you and attack you.

Think I’m going to play my WE tonight on test. RIP WAR.

Sanduskel.1850:

you and other thieves are constantly chanting l2p to anyone who questions broken thief mechanics. you shall reap what you sow.

Like I said, I’m not chanting l2p to people questioning permastealth. I’m complaining about people who don’t bother learning to deal with thieves in general, be it d/d thieves or some perma evade sword thief, something I imagine you are running. And yes, they are complained about as well. You just keep repeating the same nonsense over and over again, you hardly read my replies and just make one single assumption. It’s time to start actually reading my replies, and to start thinking about what you say.

Okaishi.8320:

Sanduskel.1850:

you and other thieves are constantly chanting l2p to anyone who questions broken thief mechanics. you shall reap what you sow.

Like I said, I’m not chanting l2p to people questioning permastealth. I’m complaining about people who don’t bother learning to deal with thieves in general, be it d/d thieves or some perma evade sword thief, something I imagine you are running. And yes, they are complained about as well. You just keep repeating the same nonsense over and over again, you hardly read my replies and just make one single assumption. It’s time to start actually reading my replies, and to start thinking about what you say.

“Further nerfing would be uncalled for, but I guess it would make the ‘average’ WvWer happy, so he’s less prone to be ganked on his way to the blob where he can just mindlessly spam the nr 1 key again.”

I rest my case.

Sanduskel.1850:

“Further nerfing would be uncalled for, but I guess it would make the ‘average’ WvWer happy, so he’s less prone to be ganked on his way to the blob where he can just mindlessly spam the nr 1 key again.”

I rest my case.

So you think thieves need more nerfs after the fixing of permastealth?

Admittedly, I was raging about two thieves last night. They were painfully (for me) aware of the class mechanics and were abusing the cheesiest ones. It’s like Perplexity Runes right now to me. We’re all aware they are broken and using them is super cheesy. Thus, I avoid using them.

Well I’m not sure how many people have responded on a thief vs thief perspective but here I go. I have no problem guessing where the thief is going when in stealth, especially when auto attack can still do damage in a wide range for just about every melee character. If you have problems fighting a thief, play as a thief and get used to the meta. The only thing i have agreed with on this page was that refuge could shave off a few seconds (especially when stealth applications stack), and that initiative could have its regen time shaved down as well.

In the case of balance 1 smart thief is good vs 1 opponent, maybe 2, but a thief in a zerg is very underpowered when considering how much more able other classes are. With a cap on backstab damage, and the removal of mug doing damage, and next to no group utility what else do you people want? The removal of thieves? Its bad enough to have the lowest health pool, and low toughness, but everyone and their mother complains about them being able to do damage. You want a thief to lose stealth? Cool. Take away the high damage of a warrior, the toughness of a guardian, the variability of elementalists, or any other niche that a class has. Hell, lets all play engineers.

Okaishi.8320:

Sanduskel.1850:

“Further nerfing would be uncalled for, but I guess it would make the ‘average’ WvWer happy, so he’s less prone to be ganked on his way to the blob where he can just mindlessly spam the nr 1 key again.”

I rest my case.

So you think thieves need more nerfs after the fixing of permastealth?

Hey why would i want more nerfs? I like winning in wvw, lol.

Sanduskel.1850:

Hey why would i want more nerfs? I like winning in wvw, lol.

Well obviously you’re killing enemy players, so your build must be OP. Nerf please.

Sreoom.3690:

All I ask for is an effective counter.

I hit a thief with cripple…they stealth and shake it off. I hit a thief with Daze, they stealth and shake it off. I hit a thief with Entangle (my Elite Skill) they stealth and shake it off…then I get hit twice and die.

Where is the balance?

this isnt really accurate. stealth does not cancel anything on its own, if you stealth and your immobilized, you will still be immobilized. You may be confusing shadow steps with invisibility. Also theif doesnt have as many sources of invisibility as you think

the real key here is invisible is not invulnerable, they still take dmg, get conditions, etc. the key is they can run away better, thats about it.

Personally my problem with stealth is that it removes the consequences for thieves. Here is how it usually goes for me.

Some random thief stealth’s then uses steal to shadow step too me. I use my stun block and we skirmish, at some point I am down to about 80%-70% health and the thief is at 20%-10% health, they stealth and run away. They may even shadow me and try it again a few times. About half the time I kill them out right, but all of the ones that attack me then get away annoy me, because once they get stealth, there isn’t a lot I can do. This mechanic gives bad players the ability to live when they do not deserve to do so.

Cactus.2710:

In spite of how many times these hate-stealth threads show up, and in spite of the fact that just about every survey ever taken on these forums list thieves as one of the least useful classes in a group environment (which covers a very large portion of GW2), these threads do serve kind of a valuable purpose. They identify which players don’t really know what they’re doing and instead mistake “irritating” for “overpowered.”

Actually a thieves individual ability to stealth, and their usefulness in group are two very unrelated topics. I find good thieves valuable with their stealth though. Great for stomps, great for reviving or getting downed players up.

phys.7689:

stealth is highly annoying but not very effective. Its best for running away, which has very little value in objective based gaming. Also, canceling stealth is too strong a card to pull. it would mean thief could never use any stealth skills in pvp. And to be honest with the amount of aoe, its pretty hard not to get hit by it in any group fight, (90% of wvw fights) r

A) They already said they are working on death-match PvP.

B) The new bloodlust aura makes it matter. I’m on YB, in one of our WvW matches this season, we got over 70% of our points from the bloodlust buff.

Honestly, with simultaneously the greatest ability to kill and the greatest ability to avoid being killed all in one mechanic, why will anybody ever pick anything else so long as killing and dying in small encounters matters? And the developers have made it very clear that they do wish to see actual combat matter more in every PvP mode, rather than the pure objective control we see far too often now.

That said, I do not agree that damage should break stealth, I want to see it made balanced, not useless.

Malik.6781:

This topic about qq thief op or you blind? Almost every single post consists “thief” word.

Clearly I am blind. I am using a braille keyboard to type my post. What to know something else, I can speak Braille too.

As I said before, if you dislike this threads location, report it, don’t cry about it.

As well, like it or not, mentioning of thieves or not, stealth is and can be done by other professions, so they are not necessarily linked. I apologize if this offends your delicate sensibilities.

Malik.6781:

Ok I can’t simply understand, is that forum politic against thief class or what? Any qq topic about another classes moving to subclass forum, but qq about thieves always in spvp.
To all of you qqers rabbits, thief is already dead, and getting last hit at DEC 10. You may already celebrate it.

yet another example of the kind of thief behavior that brings hatred and nerfs to our class. people have legitimate gripes against cheese mode permascrub. yet my fellow thieves treat them like trash.

Okaishi.8320:

Sanduskel.1850:

this is the kind of arrogance that gets our class constantly nerfed. no compromising, just call everyone who hates the abuse of perma stealth (Anet’s phraseology, not mine) bad players. keep it up. Your attitude towards players who ask for balance just foster more hatred and more nerfs.

What arrogance? I’m not calling people bad for hating perma stealth, I’m calling out players who don’t bother to try and learn how to play against thieves. Please read before making these replies with your usual nonsense.

5 of us fighting a thief in north camp, 2 of us rangers. We switched out Sic’Em while fighting this thief for 10 MINUTES. Shadowstealthing away constantly (I prefer when thieves do this), entering stealth for barely a second before attacking us again. We threw down traps, AoE, solid attacks, EVERYTHING. He never got down lower than 20%.

Reason being, too many of the thief traits that allow you to survive are attached to stealth or add to it. You can easily trait for condition cleansing through stealth, regen health in stealth, move faster in stealth, removing conditions and gain regen when you get under 75%, heal yourself whenever you use initiative, steal = stealth, etc.

Add all these together and you create an unkillable thief. Which is what we just had. There is no L2P when you have THAT much utility plus being untargettable and impossible to knock out of stealth.

Lol I got you, trolls here, and this one, 5 alts. Burnfall somewhere here too?

RyuDragnier.9476:

Okaishi.8320:

Sanduskel.1850:

this is the kind of arrogance that gets our class constantly nerfed. no compromising, just call everyone who hates the abuse of perma stealth (Anet’s phraseology, not mine) bad players. keep it up. Your attitude towards players who ask for balance just foster more hatred and more nerfs.

What arrogance? I’m not calling people bad for hating perma stealth, I’m calling out players who don’t bother to try and learn how to play against thieves. Please read before making these replies with your usual nonsense.

5 of us fighting a thief in north camp, 2 of us rangers. We switched out Sic’Em while fighting this thief for 10 MINUTES. Shadowstealthing away constantly (I prefer when thieves do this), entering stealth for barely a second before attacking us again. We threw down traps, AoE, solid attacks, EVERYTHING. He never got down lower than 20%.

Reason being, too many of the thief traits that allow you to survive are attached to stealth or add to it. You can easily trait for condition cleansing through stealth, regen health in stealth, move faster in stealth, removing conditions and gain regen when you get under 75%, heal yourself whenever you use initiative, steal = stealth, etc.

Add all these together and you create an unkillable thief. Which is what we just had. There is no L2P when you have THAT much utility plus being untargettable and impossible to knock out of stealth.

Are you talking about 70 pts in shadow arts build?

Since launch there have been hundred upon hundreds of QQ threads about stealth (invisibility is a better description), have you ever thought that maybe that means that the entire concept of it is flawed and broken and that it shouldn’t even exist within a PvP/WvW setting?

All thieves should be punished.

On a serious note, I think stealth benefits too much from poor latency (and my poor oceanic network).

RyuDragnier.9476:

5 of us fighting a thief in north camp, 2 of us rangers

“2 of us rangers”

That sounds like a comedy, this is a comedy right?

The more I play the less I care about thiefs. Yes, they will still get me rejoining my group in a borderland every now and then, but there are only one or two who can kill me on their own (like the AG silver veteran thief that I mention in our match up thread).

Yes, they can be annoying- but frankly I find phant spamming mesmers more of a problem than a solo thief these days.

Is stealth a broken mechanic? Yes, as there is no real counter.
Does it really have that much effect on the overall outcome of a match? No. Killing someone 20 seconds away from their spawn delays them by 20 seconds- run out the other entrance and be on your way.
Can thiefs be annoying? Yes.

Conncept.7638:

phys.7689:

stealth is highly annoying but not very effective. Its best for running away, which has very little value in objective based gaming. Also, canceling stealth is too strong a card to pull. it would mean thief could never use any stealth skills in pvp. And to be honest with the amount of aoe, its pretty hard not to get hit by it in any group fight, (90% of wvw fights) r

A) They already said they are working on death-match PvP.

B) The new bloodlust aura makes it matter. I’m on YB, in one of our WvW matches this season, we got over 70% of our points from the bloodlust buff.

Honestly, with simultaneously the greatest ability to kill and the greatest ability to avoid being killed all in one mechanic, why will anybody ever pick anything else so long as killing and dying in small encounters matters? And the developers have made it very clear that they do wish to see actual combat matter more in every PvP mode, rather than the pure objective control we see far too often now.

That said, I do not agree that damage should break stealth, I want to see it made balanced, not useless.

first of all this illusion that thief has the highest burst dmg isnt really true. 2nd the idea that stealth is a perfect defense is false. in death match, even if the theif survives, he will then die to the better classes.

theif is not the best 1v1 class, its the best at getting out of a bad situation. 1v1 theif ends up running when facing similar skilled opponents many times.

match up thief versus the top of the classes, and you wont see them winning 1v1 much.

warrior vs theif? sorry this is warrior, or theif walks away if the warrior is pvt
guardian theif walks away lets call it a tie since guardian may nt be able to kill him with low mobility
mesmer could go either way, but mesmer IMO has some of the best 1v1 tactics available, interupts, stuns, deceptions etc. On the theifs side, mesmer tends to need a target.
necro versus theif necro all the way, area denial and conditions on a low hp class with few condi removals
engi versus theif, once again area denial with condi, its a bad match up for theif

ranger vs theif, probably one of theif good match ups, though smart use of evasion on the rng and pet may make this a toss up

ele versus theif, prolly theifs best match up, low hp, and a lot of defense from boons, still its def not a guarantee if the ele is aware or tanky.

anyhow in death match team comp is still key, it only becomes one versus one if your team lets it be.

fact is stealth aint all that. I would say they should limit it, except its baked into 75% of theives abilities, they would need a new mechanic, which i find unlikely to occur

Julie Yann.5379:

Since launch there have been hundred upon hundreds of QQ threads about stealth (invisibility is a better description), have you ever thought that maybe that means that the entire concept of it is flawed and broken and that it shouldn’t even exist within a PvP/WvW setting?

people QQ any time they dnt feel good. hey if anet is willing to totally redesign theif to make them play similarly without stealth, im with it, but gutting a class just because it doesnt make opponents feel good about themselves is a bad idea

Malik.6781:

RyuDragnier.9476:

Okaishi.8320:

Sanduskel.1850:

this is the kind of arrogance that gets our class constantly nerfed. no compromising, just call everyone who hates the abuse of perma stealth (Anet’s phraseology, not mine) bad players. keep it up. Your attitude towards players who ask for balance just foster more hatred and more nerfs.

What arrogance? I’m not calling people bad for hating perma stealth, I’m calling out players who don’t bother to try and learn how to play against thieves. Please read before making these replies with your usual nonsense.

5 of us fighting a thief in north camp, 2 of us rangers. We switched out Sic’Em while fighting this thief for 10 MINUTES. Shadowstealthing away constantly (I prefer when thieves do this), entering stealth for barely a second before attacking us again. We threw down traps, AoE, solid attacks, EVERYTHING. He never got down lower than 20%.

Reason being, too many of the thief traits that allow you to survive are attached to stealth or add to it. You can easily trait for condition cleansing through stealth, regen health in stealth, move faster in stealth, removing conditions and gain regen when you get under 75%, heal yourself whenever you use initiative, steal = stealth, etc.

Add all these together and you create an unkillable thief. Which is what we just had. There is no L2P when you have THAT much utility plus being untargettable and impossible to knock out of stealth.

Are you talking about 70 pts in shadow arts build?

No, I’m talking the 0/0/30/30/10 build.

akanibbles.6237:

RyuDragnier.9476:

5 of us fighting a thief in north camp, 2 of us rangers

“2 of us rangers”

That sounds like a comedy, this is a comedy right?

Trap Ranger and Power Ranger. The other 3 were a guardian, a zerk warrior, and a mesmer. If you call surviving a zerk warrior, a mesmer, 2 rangers, and a guardian comedy, then yes, it is.

Sreoom.3690:

All I ask for is an effective counter.

I hit a thief with cripple…they stealth and shake it off. I hit a thief with Daze, they stealth and shake it off. I hit a thief with Entangle (my Elite Skill) they stealth and shake it off…then I get hit twice and die.

Where is the balance?

14 months later……….

There was never any balance to begin with.

(Even thieves admit their class are broken, yet Arena.net think otherwise).

That says alot!!

phys.7689:

Julie Yann.5379:

Since launch there have been hundred upon hundreds of QQ threads about stealth (invisibility is a better description), have you ever thought that maybe that means that the entire concept of it is flawed and broken and that it shouldn’t even exist within a PvP/WvW setting?

people QQ any time they dnt feel good. hey if anet is willing to totally redesign theif to make them play similarly without stealth, im with it, but gutting a class just because it doesnt make opponents feel good about themselves is a bad idea

As a thief, I have been ashamed to see the majority of complaints about perma stealth, a mechanic that should never have been allowed.

Burnfall.9573:

Arcuss.6457:

you people are kittening stupid. You’re complaining about a profession that has kitten defense and kitten attack (save for stealth backstabs, which is why they have an exposed condition), and you want them to take away the only way a dps thief can survive. sounds like a bunch of cry babies who got their kitten handed to them by thieves.

What is a cry baby when we get you to 80%-90% health and you cowards stealth away.

Fight like a man than you will never hear us cry.

Like the saying goes, “Bravery bring Honor, Cowards bring Disgrace”

-Arena.net designed and supports a Coward Mechanic which Disgraces the Rule of Class Balance-

What a Shame.

If it is so overpowered, then why are you and sanduskel not playing it?

phys.7689:

Conncept.7638:

phys.7689:

stealth is highly annoying but not very effective. Its best for running away, which has very little value in objective based gaming. Also, canceling stealth is too strong a card to pull. it would mean thief could never use any stealth skills in pvp. And to be honest with the amount of aoe, its pretty hard not to get hit by it in any group fight, (90% of wvw fights) r

A) They already said they are working on death-match PvP.

B) The new bloodlust aura makes it matter. I’m on YB, in one of our WvW matches this season, we got over 70% of our points from the bloodlust buff.

Honestly, with simultaneously the greatest ability to kill and the greatest ability to avoid being killed all in one mechanic, why will anybody ever pick anything else so long as killing and dying in small encounters matters? And the developers have made it very clear that they do wish to see actual combat matter more in every PvP mode, rather than the pure objective control we see far too often now.

That said, I do not agree that damage should break stealth, I want to see it made balanced, not useless.

first of all this illusion that thief has the highest burst dmg isnt really true. 2nd the idea that stealth is a perfect defense is false. in death match, even if the theif survives, he will then die to the better classes.

theif is not the best 1v1 class, its the best at getting out of a bad situation. 1v1 theif ends up running when facing similar skilled opponents many times.

Logical fallacy

I said, gain and deny kills.

The thief having the highest burst, and being the best at 1v1ing are both largely subjective to how you measure their potential rates of return. What is undeniable, is that they can (as you yourself admitted) cheat death better than any class in the game, and they can do so while still being built to kill. If you are denying your opponent more points than you are gaining, you win regardless of how many points you are gaining.

Thieves original idea was that through the initiative system they would be able to control how much of their resources they would be willing to dedicate to ensure they meet their optimal output. On a dps build prodding and saving for an escape, going all in, or anywhere inbetween. Somewhere along the way this system broke, because of constant returns on defensive mechanics, they have to make no such decisions and are able to go all in on an attack then still get enough back to get away.

Now granted they’ve also been nerfed repeatedly and as such aren’t a huge threat anymore, I can’t remembre the last time I died to one, but I also can’t recall the last time I killed one. I believe if this anti-fun passive play system of evade/stealth/feed were to be fixed the thief would be more fun to play as and against and would warrant buffs to not only its DPS specs but other playstyles that the class hasn’t even seen the far end of since launch.

Zacchary.6183:

Burnfall.9573:

Arcuss.6457:

you people are kittening stupid. You’re complaining about a profession that has kitten defense and kitten attack (save for stealth backstabs, which is why they have an exposed condition), and you want them to take away the only way a dps thief can survive. sounds like a bunch of cry babies who got their kitten handed to them by thieves.

What is a cry baby when we get you to 80%-90% health and you cowards stealth away.

Fight like a man than you will never hear us cry.

Like the saying goes, “Bravery bring Honor, Cowards bring Disgrace”

-Arena.net designed and supports a Coward Mechanic which Disgraces the Rule of Class Balance-

What a Shame.

If it is so overpowered, then why are you and sanduskel not playing it?

I’m a firm believer and practitioner in balance.

Is that wrong?

Zacchary.6183:

Burnfall.9573:

Arcuss.6457:

you people are kittening stupid. You’re complaining about a profession that has kitten defense and kitten attack (save for stealth backstabs, which is why they have an exposed condition), and you want them to take away the only way a dps thief can survive. sounds like a bunch of cry babies who got their kitten handed to them by thieves.

What is a cry baby when we get you to 80%-90% health and you cowards stealth away.

Fight like a man than you will never hear us cry.

Like the saying goes, “Bravery bring Honor, Cowards bring Disgrace”

-Arena.net designed and supports a Coward Mechanic which Disgraces the Rule of Class Balance-

What a Shame.

If it is so overpowered, then why are you and sanduskel not playing it?

lol i AM playing it. i am not playing scrub spec though.

So am I. However, the difference between you and I is experience. While most people tend to favor either-or I see both sides of the table because I have not only mained a thief for over a year but I have fought and taught my profession.

How can you label something you barely know? You can’t lest risk ignorance.

Sanduskel.1850:

lol i AM playing it. i am not playing scrub spec though.

Then prove it. I have been waiting for 2 months, yo.

coglin.1867:

About half the time I kill them out right, but all of the ones that attack me then get away annoy me, because once they get stealth, there isn’t a lot I can do.

So, in 50% of your fights with thieves, you kill them. In the other 50%, they manage to escape. They never (or rarely) actually win.

That may be annoying, but it’s hard to make a case that the class winning 0% of its encounters with you is overpowered.

Now that they are fixing perma-stealth and stun lock warriors, they need to tone down condi-bunkers. After that, we can go back to the stealth OP discussion. Outside of D/P thieves aren’t really that scary.

RyuDragnier.9476:

Malik.6781:

RyuDragnier.9476:

Okaishi.8320:

Sanduskel.1850:

this is the kind of arrogance that gets our class constantly nerfed. no compromising, just call everyone who hates the abuse of perma stealth (Anet’s phraseology, not mine) bad players. keep it up. Your attitude towards players who ask for balance just foster more hatred and more nerfs.

What arrogance? I’m not calling people bad for hating perma stealth, I’m calling out players who don’t bother to try and learn how to play against thieves. Please read before making these replies with your usual nonsense.

5 of us fighting a thief in north camp, 2 of us rangers. We switched out Sic’Em while fighting this thief for 10 MINUTES. Shadowstealthing away constantly (I prefer when thieves do this), entering stealth for barely a second before attacking us again. We threw down traps, AoE, solid attacks, EVERYTHING. He never got down lower than 20%.

Reason being, too many of the thief traits that allow you to survive are attached to stealth or add to it. You can easily trait for condition cleansing through stealth, regen health in stealth, move faster in stealth, removing conditions and gain regen when you get under 75%, heal yourself whenever you use initiative, steal = stealth, etc.

Add all these together and you create an unkillable thief. Which is what we just had. There is no L2P when you have THAT much utility plus being untargettable and impossible to knock out of stealth.

Are you talking about 70 pts in shadow arts build?

No, I’m talking the 0/0/30/30/10 build.

akanibbles.6237:

RyuDragnier.9476:

5 of us fighting a thief in north camp, 2 of us rangers

“2 of us rangers”

That sounds like a comedy, this is a comedy right?

Trap Ranger and Power Ranger. The other 3 were a guardian, a zerk warrior, and a mesmer. If you call surviving a zerk warrior, a mesmer, 2 rangers, and a guardian comedy, then yes, it is.

This is why its hard to take thief complainers seriously. No one runs that build. Seriously no one. The only thing a 30/30/10 build could be useful for is a full survival build with dire gear, melandru runes or something, and just running around spamming dodge and stealth to troll groups of people like you and your friends.

You guys might not have been able to kill him, but he sure as hell wouldn’t be able to kill anyone.

Stealth is what holds thieves back. If they weren’t balanced around a broken mechanic, Anet could buff them in other more interesting areas.

According to the devs when they first released class info, Thief was not supposed to be a stealth focused class. But since this game was supposed to attract the WoW audiences, I’m guessing Anet decided at the last minute they needed a stealther like every other mmo.

I applaud them for their attempt to make it feel different though the net effect is still the same. The truly skilled players of that class deserve better or they will never be recognized by the community as such, only as another “stealth abuser”.

What many people seem to fail to realize is that every class has ‘counters’ to stealth, though they’re not hard counters. Against a D/D thief, any well timed block/blind/cc/aegis/evade can instantly waste 6 of the thief’s iniative. Sure, they can burn a utility to stealth anyway, but as soon as they’re out of utilities and initiative thieves are basically a sitting duck. Make sure to save that knockback/pull for the shadow refuge that will be coming.

D/P is a bit more tricky, but they are getting nerfed next patch. For the ones that permastealth, try move around and in their blackpowder where they can end up heartseekering you and wasting their stealth. For the ones who don’t abuse it as much, a well timed cc can do wonders as well.

Honestly, if all the complaints were about permastealth in this topic I’d agree completely, but most of it revolved around shorter lasting stealths that already have a good amount of counterplay to it.

And for the person who was being trolled by a thief running 0/0/30/30/10 traits, that basically will hit like a wet noodle. I don’t see a thief having enough damage output with that build to pressure any half decent player. You’re better off just ignoring the guy completely. Basically the same way you would treat an insanely tanky healing signet warrior running sword/shield+greatsword and endure pains.