Showing Posts For Aden Yeshua.2148:
In that regard the Sylvari have advanced at a breakneck pace, going from not even able to form words, to forming one of the strongest alliances. They are on par with just about every race despite the first ones waking up two decades ago. If they continue this level of evolution and integration the Sylvari should be the dominant race… again with a few questions answered.
But if you look at the race as a whole like children, I think you’re overlooking that they might just plateau after a while. Young children are much more capable of learning a language they’ve never experienced, but if you’ve ever tried learning another language as an adult, you’ll know that is not an easy task at all. So they quickly caught up to the other races, but I don’t see them necessarily surpassing them. They’d probably also be willing to share what they know, as all the major races have contributed what they can to the cause of stopping the dragons.
I’d be very surprised if there was an upper limit to how many sylvari there can be. I mean, have you ever counted the seeds that fall from a tree? Or perhaps it’d be more accurate to tally the fruits, including that some of them are rotten. (Sadly, I can’t think of a metaphor for the Soundless.) The Pale Tree will just keep producing sylvari until she dies or is severely damaged once more. When she starts dying, that’s when the sylvari will have to worry.
Maybe, we still don’t know how seeds are made. This thing like many plants just start churning out seeds for itself we don’t know. For all we know the Sylvari might be the tree seeds. They might plateau or litterally die out, we can only go on what we see so far. What we see so far looks amazing.
I would point out that the greatest weakness of the sylvari, if we’re talking national attack, is that the Pale Tree can’t move, and the sylvari can’t repopulate with her. There’s the possibility there are still some Trees in the Maguuma somewhere (we never found Malyck, after all) but we don’t know what these other sylvari would be like, if they were all claimed by the Dragon or if those Trees keep popping out sylvari now that Mordremoth is dead.
I wouldn’t have interpreted the initial post as one of which society is the strongest, but which race could produce the strongest combatant. In that case, I’d have to say that they are all equally capable of producing someone powerful in their own right. ArenaNet tried very hard to make certain that none of the races had a distinct advantage over the others, even if certain combinations of the racial skills make certain other ones better. Besides, how do you even decide what makes a strong fighter in a world with both martial and magical weapons, where you can blast either a fireball or a musket?
Yeah, as pointed out that is a huge weakness, one they might not overcome. We still do not know just how many Sylvari the Pale Tree can have. The cave where the seed was found obviously had another visitor. Sylvari are so unknown, it’s hard to have any discussion on any matter. =/
Arenanet did do a very good job with balance (Fireball vs Gun) those are gameplay elements. Arenanet did not balance races and the lore, evenly. Rightfully so, a race like the Norn have no home to call their own, they want one, but in this game they don’t get one. Humans for a majority part have been pushed back. The Asura own and control the transport network, it’s not split 50/50 or 1/5th.
In that regard the Sylvari have advanced at a breakneck pace, going from not even able to form words, to forming one of the strongest alliances. They are on par with just about every race despite the first ones waking up two decades ago. If they continue this level of evolution and integration the Sylvari should be the dominant race… again with a few questions answered.
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I feel like you’re not giving the non-Krytan humans a fair shake, I don’t know about you but I would not dismiss the humans of Ebonhawke. They held out against the Charr for generations through martial skill alone and I would personally not kitten with them. Queen Jennah’s people of Divinity’s Reach might be a bit of a pushover but Ebonhawke is a militarily raised society and most Charr commanders even Iron Legion themselves deem Ebonhawke and it’s Fallen Angels a formidable force.
Maybe so, it is my understanding that their main stronghold is barely under control, and even just recently the Charr deemed it worth even consideration in taking. Walking around I get the sense that this place is on death’s door. I could be wrong, and they are formidable, but they have been playing defense for quite some time. How long can they keep it up at this pace, forever? Can they muster up enough to actually go on the offense and hold a location? I can’t even picture that let alone it happening….
Agreed, but I believe the statement was what race would make the better warriors. Not who has the better strategy, and tactics. The lack of a centralized government ironically makes the Norn arguably the weakest in this regard.
If the Charr or Norn were to make a direct assault on the Pale Tree that would raise and answer a ton of questions. Would the Sylvari feel “compelled” to come home? Would the Nightmare Court help defend? Would the Tree in a desperate attempt to defend itself release all Sylvari still in the dream? Would the Sylvari turn from their average nature of explorers, and curious adventures, to more of a militaristic one? Would each altercation with the Charr be more pronounced in the Dream?
It is my belief that the Norn would not survive or do anything of note to the Pale Tree. The Charr on the other hand, well that depends. I believe (despite many on here) that the connection is just for that purpose. That if the Pale Tree were in true physical danger from the Charr that all Sylvari would feel “compelled” to defend. Some will resist, but I suspect the more danger the stronger the drive to return home.
Defensively with a few questions answered, I believe the Sylvari would come out on top over any race. They are fighting in a forest, with many natural camouflage enemies, with a leader that has a few centuries of knowledge. Not to mention the forest itself would be a massive home field advantage. -IF- the altercation were to last awhile, the Sylvari in general I believe would come out.
However, lol
The Charr have proven very resourceful, more than any other race. If they could strike the tree quickly and decisively they could easily win. If The Sylvari has three massive weaknesses. Their strength has a bunch of questions that need to be answered, their Home Base is easily seen and cannot change location, and offensively it would heavily depend on a prolonged altercation. – Something I believe the Sylvari cannot simply do at this time.
Surprisingly the Asura falls somewhere in there as well. With every Asura comes a power armor, or at least the ability to summon one, this puts even elderly, the young, and even the untrained on par with a battle hardened warrior. With golems then can survive altercations with no casualties, and like the Sylvari it only is a matter of time before they invented something that would change the course of the battle.
But just like the Sylvari it would require time, time that the Charr would not be able to afford them. If the Charr were to strike decisively at wherever and however they were building these power suits and golems the Asura would be reduced to nothing.
Humans are being pushed back and defeated already, they would not survive any altercation aside from a few Norn tribe strikes and even then…
The only weakness of the Charr would be if they conquered the tree to claim it for their own, or the Sylvari with their constant manipulation of the forest and Nature held the Charr back. They could easily cut off unit resupplies, heck even units themselves. Massive home field advantage, these two races would be the only one that I think would give them a run for thier money.
Uhh..what? Sylvari belong to the dragon, I’m not sure they’re great at anything anymore besides being the ultra traitors and the near-destruction of the Pact. And if you really want to get head-cannon-y, Norn are the greatest warriors because they are huge and turn into animal people which probably snap Sylvari In half. Needless, to say Charr and humans are probably more adept at warfare itself then most races for having embraced each other as enemies for the longest time.
Well the original, and still claim is they are the best engineers, not warriors. I agree the best at pure warfare right now are the Norn, to a lesser extent the char. Not sure if the other stuff has anything to do with anything sadly.
New information came to light, even in my first post I admitted I was playing the game. There was nothing to “back out” of. There is nothing I’m sticking to, these are opposite statements. I do appreciate those who took the time to explain certain things, and to not thank those that did not contribute and decided to dog pile with a meager lack of understanding and following what goes on. Also like to not thank all those that did not speak in generalizations, those that did not attempt to do a moderators job for them, and those that were “insulted” by words on a forum that were not directed at them, or really have anything to do with them.
I ninja edited before your rant Mathis, I do admit my tone towards Grewhawk has devolved. By your own admission, a debate could be made for 2/3rds of his posts are off topic and directed solely at me. Something that if he was truly interested in addressing he’d just send a PM instead of showboating.
Your ‘requesting’ snippet has contradictory information in the very same paragraph. Your ‘presenting’ paragraph is no longer applicable since I don’t take a stance on any issue on this subject. Your history on this forum is sadly irrelevant to the subject matter.
Then you name it? What do you call someone who says your sticking to your guns and are closed minded when in-fact there is nothing I’m sticking to? At all.
Edit:
No one here has issues with comprehension, contrary to your belief.
Maybe you need to work on your comprehension there.
According to you there is no one, yet you found one, didn’t take much digging…
he wasn’t, just pointing out what we know
and claiming that he was speaking for groups of people when he wasn’t.
You claim he was speaking for what you all know, then proceed to say he was only speaking for himself. This is an opposite statement.
Nowhere in any of his posts did I see that he was speaking for any group of people.
You should have looked harder I didn’t even try and I found numerous posts of him saying “we” referring to more than just himself.
And the real thing here
So the rest isn’t real? I’m confused…
In short, I think this thread needs to just be closed.
So, in addition, you are saying there is a ton of backseat moderators on here too?
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After reading most of this thread, I can say its not worth the time speaking to Aden, he’s bent on believing his hypothesis even if proof or solid arguments is showed to his face, and you can’t discuss with closed minds like his, let him continue believing his stuff, I myself feel somehow insulted the way he ignores most of what is shown to him, being info known to most of the community since a long time.
Let this thread die in silence, do not let it keep going.
Do not even bother answering me Aden for I won’t enter this thread of yours again.
Again, if anything is absolutely clear is there is no stance I’m taking. I believe in nothing, other than my own personal opinion that Sylvari is the “best” engineering race. there is absolutely nothing I’m sticking to, there was no hypothesis concluded, I found out the Dream is missing it’s origin, purpose, and nature. Nothing to conclude for now based on that. There is no fact to be thrown in my face because there is nothing to disprove. I’m thinking there are a few members on here with proxy accounts, not only are my posts misunderstood, they are misunderstood in the exact same way… My opinion is subjective at best, but it is still my own. As far as I know, every theory on here (those that actually shared and contributed) unlike you, could be correct, I made this very, very clear.
Cheap copout as it seems but we just don’t have enough info to stick to anything, let alone my theories. Yet another with the very same reading comprehension quirk…
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Annnd now we’re throwing in Ad Hominems on top of Strawmans. Man, I want to meet whomever taught you how to debate.
I want to know the precise moment to thought it was okay to overuse the same word. I’d ask you the same but I know nobody taught you much of anything.
You, are the one that keeps derailing, not anyone else.
Ironically, you do realize this is a derail itself? Is that an attack on my grammar? It appears you have used the object pronoun “whomever” in a subjective position. Should be “whoever”. Nearly all of your posts have been off topic and request that I explain your off-topic rants to you, this is also the second time you predicted this topic is going to be locked. Maybe if you keep posting it will be locked. Often what you accuse me of is something that you do in the very same post. I’d like to continue on topic but you won’t permit that, you’re kitten, you were politely asked to make your own topic, instead of randomly chiming in very incoherently and always off topic.
snip
Look, I’m sure you’re a good guy and all, and that you mean well, but your style of discussion where you go at those who’ve disagreed or challenged you in a rather rude manner aren’t doing your arguments any favours.
You seem very adamant about your view on the sylvari and the dream, but so far it hasn’t done much to convince others. It’s a nice little headcanon if we could call it that, but I don’t see you convincing others or the majority of it. Especially when people like koening can refute more or less all of the claims in such a well laid out manner. You are free to have the headcannon you want, but the way you’ve been going at it won’t convince others of it being “right”.
I appreciate you jumping in and attempting to guide me, I’m not adamant about any view really. For all we know could go any way, after playing that is what I concluded. I don’t know who this Koening is, I’m sure he’s very knowlegable, but nobody save Arenanet staff should be considered an “end all” of sorts. Again no offense to you but I can’t stand those that claim to speak for everyone, you do not know enough of everyone to make the statements you’re making. What are you proposing is I come to you to find out how to “convince” eveyone, correct? Your post certainly suggests just that. Ignoring the assumption that you hold all the social secrets on here I just as well get a pm instead of chiming in with something directed at me. If we could please get back on topic…
If you read my quote above, you’ll see that I asked Greyhawk to stop caring. At no point did I say that I’ve stopped caring. You claim that I did, and then turn around to ask me why I’m posting here if I’ve stopped caring. What you’ve done here (with me) is what you’ve been doing with Greyhawk this entire thread (which btw he’s already pointed out, see below).
Uhh, no. Saying “If you were him” combined with the statement “I’ve lost all hope” a statement very much akin to “I stopped caring” yes, from those statements I can make a pretty accurate assessment that you’ve lost all hope in this debate and stopped caring. I’m glad he has a social counselor to guide him (he really needs it) but I feel like your skills are wasted. – Forget not wanted in the debate, but could you please stop derailing my topic it’s bad enough explaining the alphabet to Greyhawk, I don’t need another trying desperately to prove that he/she has friends on here.
Many still believe in the spiritual belief on how the universe was created
What does that have to do with astrophysics…?
Cuts to the heart of it, and explains why you are not grasping what I’m saying. If you don’t know how something is made, or it’s purpose, Astrophysics could be turned on its head, and often has.
Yes, a “final concrete answer” could be made… until someone down the road comes up with another theory that will challenge the status quo and when proven, will become the new “final concrete answer”… until someone further down the road comes up with another theory…
Yes, hopefully to an end conclusion. There gets a point where we know enough of something to tell you how it works. To put it in the most simple terms possible the Avatar of the tree, the Wiki, and a few other NPCs have boiled down to “I don’t know really” what the dream is, or it’s purpose, or how it came to be. This I believe is deliberate, and something that hopfully will be used in the future.
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You have this remarkable habit of Strawman-ing everything I say, and now I apparently haven’t even played the game. I don’t even know what you mean why you claim I said that “the other races are more connected”. Where did you pull that from? What does it even mean?
I’d stop caring at this point if I were you. I lost all hope when I read this little gem:
While an argument could be made to discount everything in Astrophysics
I would have hoped you put aside your need to be right and ego enough to see the strong correlation between your comment and this debate. As pointed out before Astrophysics is a very precarious subject, history has proven that nothing is very clear. Many still believe in the spiritual belief on how the universe was created, others do not, science journals submit around the world a near daily pace to shatter the understanding of black holes, string theory, and just about every corner of the subject. Just like the Silvari, they are missing a few key pieces (origin, purpose, ect) and perhaps always will. If they had these the science community could have something more akin to a solid answer, and in time a final concrete answer could be made. Given the lack of understanding or the disregard on this subject maybe you should “stop caring” though you did care enough to post, maybe you posted just to tell others you stopped caring? That’s it… or you could dare I say it, contribute something meaningful to the debate?
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That’s not saying the Dream contains all memories, or that every sylvari learns of all memories (or even any memory technically) like OP thought (and now understands).
Uhh no, that is not what I thought. Even in my hive mind theory there surely has to be a system in place for weeding out nonpertantant information. Can one remember from a dream how to take or put something back together? Certainly. All this side discussion of how, or what does not change this fact. The Silvari can and does learn something it has never experienced or trained for. This is still this fact.
Studying why the nature, origin, and purpose of the “lake” or “well” is hidden from the Pale Tree leads to a few obvious conclusions.
Why use a plot device to obscure this from the Pale Tree, unless it’s to shatter her understanding of it? From a writers point of view why hide it unless you plan to in the future use this? If you aren’t going to shatter her perception or understanding of it why introduce this plot device at all? Why not just let her know? …So evidence thus far on this phenomenon known as the “Dream” and all understanding of it could very well (more evidence than not) be thrown on it’s head.
The thing that bugs me is the community (thus far) seemingly knew this… They knew the origin, purpose, and nature of the Dream was still unknown, yet still spoke from a “matter of fact” position, when that position is impossible if you don’t have those three pieces.
Sure the short term effects can be studied, and we can theorize what we think the purpose or function given all that we know. But we don’t actually know. It appears on the outside to be a mass tool for collecting information about the world, the Silvari (for the most part) seem to be its “feelers” or eyes and ears. Could be used something as benign as looking for the perfect place to plant another tree or have an offspring. It could be a defense mechanism to Slay Dragons when Dragons have been removed or the threat the Silvari are called home (or just wither away.)
Currently there are three known stages of Silvari development, and in every post (save a select few) most confuse including me what stage a Silvari is influenced, some including that guy Greyhawk believe the Silvari are -never- influenced, that everything is completely optional, all the time, that other races are more connected. This is simply not the case in the slightest if it wasn’t for the forum restriction I’d say he’s never played the game, much less the Silvari.
(Stage 1) The Dream – The biggest unknown, who, how, or more importantly what is learned here is a big unknown, it is described as a “lake” and you take a “bucket” from that lake. How big is the bucket? Are they all the same? Can others learn more or less? Are still unknown… even more important then that is the long term effects and the connection, how strong or weak, whats its purpose, and how much control can one exploit from that link is still up for debate. Memories can be wiped, and replaced with the few interactions I have posted here. Even a sort of makeshift “mental firewall” is in place as pointed out to me shielding fellow Silvari.
(Stage 2) Pale Tree – It is described as the Pale Tree teaching the necessities to its young sometime during the dream but not before they wake up. During this stage, she instills “water is wet”, “fire is hot”, and what is described as basic living needs. Beyond this, in this stage, she passes on the teachings of the Tablet. This is why the main character almost word for word embodies the tablets teachings before even waking up. It is during this stage the Nightmare Court believe they are polluting the “well” and the Pale Tree is deviating from it’s true nature.
The game often uses the word “make” very often in fact. Regardless of the very long post by another member explaining they can’t choose what goes into the well, I found this to be incorrect. But not in the general sense. They are choosing to put pain and suffering tainting the well and have a lasting and prolonged impact on a Silvari’s development.
Never to be confused with free will, it is shown a few times that a Silvari with enough free will can overcome all. Though I don’t know how much free will you can have when your memories are wiped clean…
The Soundless choose not to hear the Pale Tree for the very reason that this connection can and is being exploited. Though it’s unclear if their connection is totally cut off, or even if that is possible.
(Stage 3) After the first two dramatic stages with many unknown factors, we have the Silvari emerge, still with unknown intent, and an unknown bond to the Dream. It’s very clear that there is a bond, but it’s purpose, effects, and really anything are unknown.
Some here have posted sorta off topic responses such as “they have free will” to the “Tablet was optional for the tree.” To the absolutely ridiculous “they are not as connected as other races and other races are more connected” – these all detract from the fact. There is a mass learning and development tool in place, this lets the race learn something they did not seek out themselves. From studying the culture and gaining a better understanding of it, in my opinion, the Silvari still make the best Engineers.
While an argument could be made to discount everything in Astrophysics given the right knowledge. Astrophysics however minor in let’s say 20B.C, is almost entirely non-applicable given how much knowledge we’ve “gained”. I can imagine 8000 years from now they will look back at us and think the same god willing. Looking back they didn’t have the right tools, knowledge, mindset, or really anything to attempt Astrophysics, but I’m sure they tried, I’m sure they argued, had debates. More importantly, things that were very “clear” to them then, is no longer clear or proven false.
Astrophysics is the perfect analogy of not having all the pieces, sure we can talk about it, but we don’t have the main piece. Given time with seasons who knows maybe Ronin wanted to create dragon hunters, maybe it turns out the well or lake is magically bound to the tree thoughts, a point is we don’t know the main piece that we need to know to have this kind of debate. On a much less grand scale, I’ve tried peanut butter, I know that I like it, I’ve even seen it made, I don’t understand all the ingredients in it, but I know it’s nature and why it is here, and how it came to be. I have enough information to say if I like the stuff. Apply that to anything that you have.
We can go back and forth all day, year, whatever. That fact is we truly do not know, and that won’t change until we have its main piece. It’s not missing a smaller piece, it’s missing the main component to have this discussion.
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Oh my god… not at you, your points are heard, but sadly irrelevant with what I just learned…
“The true nature of the Dream is unknown even to the Pale Tree.”
What!? Not only found on the Wiki but the Pale Tree just eluded to it… This destroys not only my understanding of it but everyone else as well. All of it is theory crafting if you don’t know the purpose of something it could very well be anything! It could be a mass means of control to produce dragon hunters, it could be as benign as a magic mutation, could very well be anything literally. Jesus… I hope you didn’t know this. We are debating a puzzle that is missing the main piece. Equivalent to us sitting down at a table debating this flashing orb we found and what it does, WE DON"T KNOW WHAT THE HELL IT DOES. Oh my god… hahaha well… the Silvari definitely have potential, their main learning mechanism is not even understood. So any debate on the subject is pure conjecture and chest pounding. Without knowing whats its purpose or how it came to be it’s all… talk.
First off thank you for your thoughtful and thought provoking a response.
There is a bit of dialog (quite a bit) that does support that the teachings of the tablet continue long after birth. There is also quite a bit of evidence that the Silvari are influenced (however minor) and however optional, even from birth.
Its also very clear just as in the Dream’s case, the Nightmare and Mordremoth -CAN- be resisted.
To bring this back to the Pale Tree – she doesn’t enforce or manipulate the sylvari.
There is the word I’ve been looking for -doesn’t- my opinion has shifted a bit while discovering more of the story. It has shifted to, as you say, she doesn’t. It optional, she doesn’t choose to, the Nightmare Court can, and maybe will. When we do see her lose composure (death of the first) or Silvari suffering it is “felt” throughout the Silvari.
“Caithe: There you are! The Pale Tree told me where to find you. I have to tell you, Malyck’s tree…”
This is often mentioned also, the Pale Tree seems to know where every Silvari is at all times. This casual and often used statement of “the Pale Tree told me” is a bit more evidence that the Tree is in constant contact with the Silvari.
“Trahearne: Yes. If the Nightmare Court has robbed you of your memory and connection to the Dream, Malyck, she will heal you.
Malyck: And if they have not? What answer will she give us then?
Trahearne: Something true. The Dream cannot lie. That is its nature."
This is a very very important interaction. Not only can a Silvari’s memories be erased, but something else can be put in its place. Trahearne reassures the character that what will be replaced will only be the truth because that is its nature. Now that’s obviously not the Nightmare courts nature…
But more to the direct point, depends can a memory be passed on? Yes. Can that memory be passed on to more than one at once? Absolutely. Can and does the Silvari passdown knowledge gained by other Silvari at, least on a basic level? (water is wet, fire burns) yes. In the Silvari short time awakened do we see a civilization that rivals the others? Yes, very much so.
Here is where it gets tricky. How much does the Pale Tree teach or influence the Silvari beyond the basic necessities? How much can a Silvari learn before awakening? Does it have access to the entire well? Or only a portion of uncontrolled thoughts seep its way into the Silvari?
Specifically, the learning is never directly awnsered. At least one faction in the game believes (as do I) that the well can be tainted and the Silvari connection to the tree can be used as a means of control. The statement by Trahearne proves that if someone with ill intent CAN control a Silvari. The Pale Tree just doesn’t… at least thats what it thinks. My interactions with the tree leave me feeling it’s not her intent, shes not trying to consciously manipulate the Silvari and that her Nature only compels her to tell the truth.
I’ve seen this mentioned to backbone many arguments and its easily most of everyone posts. It is very clear if the person wills it enough they can do anything. This was never my intent to question this. The Tabet was optional for the tree, and for the most part the Silvari. As some NPCs have stated the Tree call is stronger in some than others. It is now more accurate to say (barring the end doesn’t change this) that the Pale Tree itself is of a hive mind, with the ability shown to feel other Silvari, locate them with pinpoint accuracy, able to feel the death, or if that Silvari is corrupted or in danger – at all times. They are easily the most connected race, and what took other Civilizations centuries to accomplish they’ve done the same in decades. It is in my opinion due to the mental connection and the ability to gain knowledge by means of the Dream.
I’d also just like to add (I’ve said this many times now) that the Tree does -NOT- control the well. As with my card analogy she (the nightmare court to) can control what goes into that well. Which often (not always) produces like minded Silvari.
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Seems like I’m about wrapping up Heart of Thorns, though I don’t see any hint of this “shield” you are talking about, you’ll have to explain that one to me. In the case of the main character, Caithe, and other Silvari do seem to be born with the tablets teachings in mind before leaving the dream. Now armed with better knowledge on the subject I can tell you that almost ALL of the dialog explaining how much control the Pale Tree has or has not comes from the manifestation of the tree itself. The death of the first was felt throughout and affected the unborn. This was not hinted at being optional. One could even argue that gave birth to the Nightmare Court.
He believes in “darkening the well” to be free of the tablets teachings. Now I don’t know if many, or all of you believe that the well is totally optional and a repository that can be pulled from with absolutely no effect on their growth or development outside of their own intended wills.
I’m here to say you’re wrong. Not only does the Official Wiki say it, and enforces the idea, something you all use yourselves in various posts around this forum, but the game itself.
If you remove (what is arguable) the most biased NPC on the subject, the Pale Tree, what would be left is absolutely nothing to stand on. I know at least one of you is a fan of not listening to the game itself (the Nightmare court is wrong I’m right) but I’ll reiterate the Nightmare Courts position.
They believe that the Pale Tree uses the tablets teachings to shackle the Silvari, they believe that the Pale Tree uses it even in the Dream. There is proof of this not only on the Wiki but in the game itself, this is indisputable in my mind. Like someone trying to tell me water isn’t wet. With that motivation, they seek to “poison” that completely optional well with their own teachings. From what I can see so far they have to some extent accomplished this. There WAS a version of their own tree the Nightmare Tree. I was told on this thread there wasn’t.
The answer is in the Nightmare Court itself if it succeeds the Silvari WILL be affected and different. They will -not- have an option even in the Dream. Because (as with the firsts death) they ALL are connected. At least on some level, and on a level that is currently trying to be exploited for ironically given this thread position the purpose of control.
I will have to study and play more to see if in fact, it’s completely optional and willing on their part. Also, if their motivations intentionally capturing the dream, or a product of them tampering with the Silvari? Arg even typing this statement leads me to believe there is at least -some- connection between living Silvari and the dream.
The Nightmare Court definitely don’t give people a chance to choose Nightmare or Dream. There is no option once you have been kidnapped by the Nightmare Court. I think that what Konig is saying is that the Nightmare Court don’t desire for ALL sylvari to eventually be part of the Nightmare Court. Currently, they know that they are in the Minority, so they are making as much noise as they can trying to destroy the “shackles” of the Ventari Tablet. This “noise” includes torture, murder, and forced coercion to the side of the Nightmare Court.
So in a sense, even the game itself thinks the Pale Tree is manipulating the Silvari by the teachings of the Ventari Tablet? Regardless if the Nightmare court believes right, wrong, or indifferent, they believe it is a control mechanism the Tree is using to at the very least influence the Silvari.
It’s kind of funny and ironic that some (or all) on this forum believe without an absolute doubt that the Pale Tree CANNOT influence the Silvari, when one of the game’s factions believe it to be so. heh
From my understanding, nobody is actually doing anything to the tree correct? Nobody’s chopping at it? Burning it? Is this nightmare a result of torturing Silvari? Doesn’t that at least hint at a mental connection? I mean this link is more then hinted at with the deaths of the first.
Except that they don’t want to control the They couldn’t care less if the sylvari join the court or not, so long as they help remove the supposed “shackles” of the Ventari Tabelt – the irony of all this is that they’re trading proverbial shackles for a much more real (albeit not physical) set of chains.
And I am saying that the only way to join the Nightmare (let alone the Nightmare Court) is to do so willingly, either from the get go or by breaking down and succumbing to their torture. One cannot simply cast a magic spell and poof that sylvari is now a Nightmare Courtier.
Though no hinting a spell or any “poofing” going on… You are saying it’s willing, though slightly contradicting information can be found in your post, them not caring what the Silvari do is as far as I can see just not the case. If this was the case they simply catch and release them. They clearly want followers to seemingly power their own version of the Pale Tree.
I will have to study and play more to see if in fact, it’s completely optional and willing on their part. Also, if their motivations intentionally capturing the dream, or a product of them tampering with the Silvari? Arg even typing this statement leads me to believe there is at least -some- connection between living Silvari and the dream.
EDIT: From the Official Wiki
_[i]Sylvari are usually honest, direct and focused, taking most things at face value. With the dream ensuring there is so much in common with the other sylvari, the experience is cherished for creating uniqueness between them. They are eager to learn, experience and understand.
Sylvari morality and ethics are based on those of the Pale Tree. These were formed by following the lives of Ronan and Ventari, during the early growth of the Pale Tree and later written on Ventari’s Tablet situated at the base of the tree. After emergence, a sylvari is guided by older sylvari to understand what they have dreamed and ensure they have a clear understanding of the tablet, their history, and the world.[/i]_
This combined with the intro, and what we see as the average Silvari very heavily suggests the Tree has greater influence than you have been lead to believe. Even the existence of the Ventari’s Tablet and that a majority of Silvari believe this way is proof of this. You’re taking the Nightmare court, as proof the Tree has absolutely no control? (if I understand you correctly) that even people injured and exposed to everything in that dream were entirely up to them? No offense but I hope your wrong, it opens a plethora of plot holes and opens an incalculable amount of questions that may never get answers.
(edited by Aden Yeshua.2148)
Firstly, if I sound hostile I do not mean to be – I can be blunt, especially when people deny facts, and especially when they deny facts while admitting not knowing the truth as you have.
A word to the wise: if you come in admitting you don’t know, and you’re told something by multiple people, it’s far more likely that those multiple people are correct rather than it being a mass conspiracy to trick you into believing lies.
Ignoring all the hostility towards me and others and, quite frankly, all the posts with such (I will not bother trying to decipher hostility from misconception from theorycrafting)…
Now why would they try and control the Dream to force others, if the Dream has absolutely no control and is completely optional? Doesn’t this statement challenge the common belief on the effects and influence of the Dream?
Also if I am to understand the structure of the Nightmare Cult I have to break it down. A group of Silvari can and does force others through the dream and rituals to indoctrinate others to their cause?
Firstly, they don’t try to control the Dream. They try to exploit sylvari’s connections to it, and turn the Dream into Nightmare – a bit of a difference, as they’re not controlling either.
Secondly, they do not force others “through the Dream”. Basically, they torture sylvari, this feeds negative emotions through the connection to the Dream, in turn feeding the Nightmare making it stronger. Some sylvari who are tortured succumb to the Nightmare, while others do not (and are eventually killed if not rescued). Those who succumb to the Nightmare have their personalities utterly twisted.
The Dream forces nothing but Wyld Hunts, the Nightmare is not the same. It results in effective brainwashing.
Also, I’ suggest you be careful with the wiki’s wording. If it isn’t quoting the game (primarily as dialogue or UI text), then it’s fan-written words. This means there is subject to interpretation by the writer (and the reader, of course), as well as false information possible (be it out of date or due to the editor being misinformed or due to the editor intentionally misinforming). It may be called the “official wiki” but this is only because it is owned and maintained by ArenaNet, the contents of the articles are 100% done by the GW community.
The paragraph you quoted is not verbatim from any official source, so your mileage on exactness may vary.
@The Greyhawk: Arden is obviously a guy who needs to see proof before ever believing a person, even if he’s green in the field and consulting with folks who have been around years longer.
I myself do not feel inclined to search through wiki articles for dialogues that state the case, so I’m not going to bother
Greyhawk I’m sorry I have no more patience to explain what I mean. I will simply ignore you. 2/3rds of your post has absolutely no bearing on what I’m talking about and if I continue with you I’m afraid it will divulge further into insanity. Thank you for coming to the supposed user defense, you are truly a knight of the people. Again you misunderstood, I made a request, not an order. I don’t own anything nor did I even hint at it. Your lack of reading comprehension is truly astounding.
You are correct, I should be more careful taking the Official Wiki as source material in most cases. As word for word often leads to not true understanding of the source material.
However THIS particular subject and what I’m talking about does not need a word for word breakdown. It’s very simple The Nightmare Court want to control the dream, their means of doing such are not in question. It’s their motivations at all, they want to force Silvari into their order, by using other Silvari. That is because their IS a connection.
Unless you are saying the only way to join The Nightmare court is willing sign up? or torture?
…anyway. Continuing on, apologies for the double post. Spearheading my train of thought and why I think this way (among other things) is the Nightmare court itself. Which some ARE mindless drones (seemingly) who want to force their will through the dream state.
According to the Official Wiki:
Nightmare to overcome the Dream and will forcefully convert others to their cause. In the end, however, all converts believe the Nightmare’s path is correct, even if forced upon them, and are all more than willing to convince other Sylvari to choose the same path, regardless of how they go about it.
Now why would they try and control the Dream to force others, if the Dream has absolutely no control and is completely optional? Doesn’t this statement challenge the common belief on the effects and influence of the Dream?
Also if I am to understand the structure of the Nightmare Cult I have to break it down. A group of Silvari can and does force others through the dream and rituals to indoctrinate others to their cause?
(edited by Aden Yeshua.2148)
If you could do me a small favor and exit the conversation, no offense. But you clearly stopped reading my posts and are determined to enforce your understandings on me. You are the type that needs to be told the sky is blue before believing it, and you are the type to not question something even if you see the opposite to be true…
No, and kitten your presumptions about my personal perception or my comprehension. Twice you’ve accused those of us that are disagreeing with you of arrogance in our arguments, and then you go and then have to gall to tell me to stop posting here. Seriously who do you think you are?
Only once, and only at you. But you feel very strongly that you ARE everyone. When I call you out, I call everyone. This is not the case. It’s just you, in reference to your “Who are you to question the knowledge of the players that have been around longer” statement. Who am I? I’m the guy politely asking you to create your own topic and have a very deep meaningful discussion elsewhere.
<There is a difference between mind control>
While the very definition of the word perfectly fits here, the Silvari have -no- control to initially participate in the dream. They did not choose to, it’s forced on them. Sure the varying effects are debatable. But there is at least some degree of mind manipulation. Water is wet, dragons are around, we are in danger, ect. But the fact that this is brought up STILL points to you not reading or understanding my posts. It’s not “mind control” as we know it.
In order to buy your understanding of it, I would have to forget the intro, ignore that they even visit the dream state without their consent, ignore that feeling are forced on them, ignore that they “report to the tree”, ignore that the tree feels it’s saplings death, ignore that they experience anything they didn’t participate in, the list goes on.
But in all likelihood, you are not able to grasp the concepts of what I’m talking about. It’s not made to be insulting, but in our short interactions, ALL of your posts have absolutely nothing to do with what I’m saying. Often reiterating points I already agreed with. You might as well start talking about macaroni and cheese, that has much more relevant than the counterpoints you bring up. I just wish to debate someone who is a bit more… centred. No offense but I can’t stand people who claim to speak for the human race. I just wish to speak with another if that is ok?
(edited by Aden Yeshua.2148)
-snip-
And I find your own tone to be equally so, particularly in light of how you are lecturing people who have been immersed in the lore of gw1 and gw2 for over a decade
I don’t know how that is possible but I apologize if I mean to question the masses brings offense. You also presuppose that simply being around is the end all. Your statement, this statement not only implies but directly calls out any who haven’t been around as people that are lesser and that could not possibly understand more than a member who has. You also make the time honored tradition of someone who is not used to being questioned by frequently stating you speak for “everyone.”
<Again I state to you, by both the Pale Tree’s and Arenanet’s words, the Tree has ZERO control of the Dream OR the Sylvari themselves>
The former I agree with, for the most part, Sylvari are more “cookie cutter” personalities. We would see more variation, and like I said this is contradicted within the first few minutes of the intro.
<She can’t make a sylvari do kitten if said sylvari doesn’t want to.>
While very true that was not my point at all, proof that you are not only not reading my posts, or understanding them. This is something I agree with. Some resist, most don’t.
<Are you saying that both the Tree and Arenanet are lying to the player base? Cause you’re going to need some motherkittening proof is you are.>
I’m saying your understanding of their statements is incorrect.
<Riannoc’s death is of note for several reasons, the primary one being that he was the very first of his race to die and as such had a great>
I’d say replay and reread the events. She quite clearly said it affected “all” Silvari. Regardless of the reason behind this ability, the ability still happened and exists.
<While the Pale Tree may still feel the many deaths of the sylvari, the rest of them have not been shown to.>
Aside from her saying it did, no. The Pale Tree by your own admission experiences something akin to a hive mind.
<Near or complete absence of individualism and free will, mean that the Dream isn’t a hive mind as the term is commonly described.>
As stated many times now it’s the closest known comparison, not meant to be directly compared to. While the Silvari certainly expresses individualism, out of all the races they are less so.
If you could do me a small favor and exit the conversation, no offense. But you clearly stopped reading my posts and are determined to enforce your understandings on me. You are the type that needs to be told the sky is blue before believing it, and you are the type to not question something even if you see the opposite to be true…
Your tone of your messages seem very hostile and “matter of fact” disposition to them. If this is the case there is no point in having a lore based forum, the point of a forum is to promote discussion on the topic to challenge each other’s understanding and interpretation to discover the truth.
That said hypothetically if the developers said the race couldn’t swim but are shown swimming cannon is challenged.
We cannot speculate on what is never shown or hinted at. But even this has an explanation. So a sprout being born with none of these traits could very well happen but would not affect my argument.
For what it’s worth I agree with the well. I also agree there is no “force” as you think of it used and your interpretation of it.
I’m saying they feel compelled, enough sprouts to achieve the tree’s goals. This is explained in the very intro “The Tree fills me with knowledge, it guilds me, it shows me my true purpose” – or something to that effect. Actually, the first few lines of the intro are more than enough to prove my point. “The Tree fills me with knowledge” one has to ask what knowledge? not that really matters that into itself points to a hive mind, and from that very statement it sounds not optional.
Hive Heart? Hive Emotions? Hive Mind? – The bottom line is they each felt and knew when one of their own died. What you are arguing is semantics. They all knew something happened, that none of them took part in, and felt it as if they were there themselves. The -only- equivalent I can draw (though not perfect) is a hive mind. Even going as far as to say a part of the dream was missing.
I believe people initial interpretation was correct, I also agree with your two interpretation of an optional well. In this case, there is actually room for both to fit in. Some could, some couldn’t. Some ignore the Tree pull, most embrace it. There is more than one way to force someone to do something. I can think of no better way then to imprint it on their very nature. Make them think it’s their own will to go out and achieve the Pale Tree wishes. You guys seem to take a few rogue elements, and ideas to bolster your perception of them. We do know the tree has very little control (but does exert some) over what the saplings can learn from the “well” of knowledge they have access to. But what if that well -doesn’t- have that many variating ideas/ideals? To put it in base terms what if I handed you a deck of cards I gave you a choice to pick any one you want, I had no control on what you pick (or so you think) turns out I handed you a deck that consisted of three or four variations of the same cards…? It’s the illusion of choice.
The end result is the same, be it your understanding of it, or mine. They gained something they themselves did not learn, they are the fastest growing civilization by far, and they (to at least some extent) send knowledge to be collected and disseminated to the newer saplings. To finish off the ability to sense death and emotion within their own civilization at the very least. I’m not impressed with this ability into itself, I’m more blown away by the fact that they knew just who died. Feeling death is one thing, feeling specifically who died points strongly to a hive mind doubled by the fact that all feel danger is coming and all feel like they need to stop it.
Edit: A very similar portrayal is seven of nines character. Though disconnected she felt a very strong urge to continue to strive for perfection. This permeated her entire existence, despite being disconnected from the borg. While Icheb chose not to, though admitting the urge for perfection was strong. He was able to resist.
It’s not the perfect contrast but there are remarkable similarities.
(edited by Aden Yeshua.2148)
But her own words the Pale Tree does not control the Dream
I believe this to be correct, but can still be taken as a mass learning tool. The Dream is like a playground sandbox, where saplings are allowed to play with any “toy” within that realm. In this case, the “toys” are bits of others shared knowledge.
But regardless of how the journey is perceived, the end result is the same. they learn things that they never experienced themselves. and they feel compelled to complete goals they never set out themselves to accomplished. So there is obviously some degree of control over its saplings. This is almost the pure definition of a hive mind, being able to sense ones death.
Another key piece of direct evidence of a “hive” mind is the first death of the first born. It was described as "Riannoc’s death was discovered, it was felt deeply by the sylvari, described by Caithe as being “like a part of the Dream was torn away”. The Pale Tree says it was as though “the sun dimmed, and the Dream wept.”
My interpretation, by this statement all Silvari (unborn) ARE exposed to memories and feelings of living Silvari.
(edited by Aden Yeshua.2148)
That kind of flies in the face of telling the Great Tree anything. It’s fairly obvious that the tree only imprints what it thinks is important on the saplings. While not an “instant” hive mind, it’s still able to disseminate knowledge to the masses at once.
There are semi-obvious things that are forced on a sapling and not pulled from a well. Such as walking, talking, and combat traits. Plus the compulsions to explore and learn.
The compulsion to complete a task works even better than a hive mind in some regards. The tree could just assume set any goal this way.
EDIT: With Malomedies he was able to bring Mathematics to “all” of his people. That furthers my knowledge argument.
(edited by Aden Yeshua.2148)
Update
Perhaps anyway…
Hello, new to the Guild Wars 2 universe [snip]
Upon further study and reflection, I have changed my original views on how and why an argument could be made that the Sylvari are the greatest race in all known Tyria. This opinion is very subjective, and many unknown questions are still unanswered. More than any other race in-fact.
It is my understanding that the Sylvari development process is as follows;
(Stage 1) The Dream – The biggest unknown, who, how, or more importantly what is learned here is a big unknown, it is described as a
“lake” and you take a “bucket” from that lake. How big is the bucket?
Are they all the same? Can others learn more or less? Are still unknown… even more important then that is the long term effects and the connection, how strong or weak, whats its purpose, and how much control can one exploit from that link is still up for debate. Memories can be wiped, and replaced with the few interactions I have posted here. Even a sort of makeshift “mental firewall” is in place as pointed out to me shielding fellow Silvari.
(Stage 2) Pale Tree – It is described as the Pale Tree teaching the necessities to its young sometime during the dream but not before they wake up. During this stage, she instills “water is wet”, “fire is hot”,
and what is described as basic living needs. Beyond this, in this stage,
she passes on the teachings of the Tablet. This is why the main character almost word for word embodies the tablets teachings before even waking up. It is during this stage the Nightmare Court believe they are polluting the “well” and the Pale Tree is deviating from its true nature.
The game often uses the word “make” very often in fact. Regardless of the very long post by another member explaining they can’t choose what goes into the well, I found this to be incorrect. But not in the general sense. They are choosing to put pain and suffering tainting the well and have a lasting and prolonged impact on a Silvari’s development.
Never to be confused with free will, it is shown a few times that a
Silvari with enough free will can overcome all. Though I don’t know how much free will you can have when your memories are wiped clean…
The Soundless choose not to hear the Pale Tree for the very reason that this connection can and is being exploited. Though it’s unclear if their connection is totally cut off, or even if that is possible.
(Stage 3) After the first two dramatic stages with many unknown factors, we have the Silvari emerge, still with unknown intent, and an unknown bond to the Dream. It’s very clear that there is a bond, but it’s purpose, effects, and really anything are unknown.
~~
All in all the Dream can impart important memories to the Sylvari, they have a very old and wise teacher that has access to near unlimited experiences herself. They use this to advance their culture at a very breakneck pace. Whether they plateau or not remains to be seen. With just over two decades of history the Sylvari strides remain impressive.
(edited by Aden Yeshua.2148)