Guild Wars 2

I don’t think I have much else to say in this entire discussion so I’ll leave with this.

As I stated in my previous post, the purpose of these forums is to allow each player to express their opinion of the content and allow the community to bounce ideas off of each other. These posts should open our eyes to how other players experience the game and allow ArenaNet to get insight into what motivates a number of their customers. An ideal forum discussion should allow those insights to happen. We should all feel free to express what we want but welcome the opinions of those that disagree. Unfortunately there are some types of responses that can steer the discussion in the wrong direction and a number of those are happening here.

First of all, no matter how much you like or dislike something, game design is not really a ‘right’ or ‘wrong’ kinda thing. I may not enjoy a particular design but there’s a good chance another player loves it. So as much as I may think I know what most players want…..I really have no clue. So using absolute phrases like “ArenaNet is failing”, “Player X is just wrong”, etc. doesn’t really mean anything. And if you are going to say things like “this design can’t succeed” or “this design is keeping the player base up” then you should also provide your scientific study and data. Otherwise, stick with phrases like “this design won’t succeed in keeping me interested.”

Secondly, telling the players that ArenaNet is going to make the decisions that get them the most money is just as useful as saying “this post is going to appear on the ArenaNet forums when I hit the reply button.” It’s completely accurate but adds nothing to the discussion. ArenaNet will make decisions in their best interest. But the entire reason they have these forums is to allow players to make suggestions and then implement the ones they find will suit them.

In the spirit of that, I’ll sum up my entire thought on this subject. I love story driven content. Story-driven content appears to be the bulk of what has been temporary. I would love to have more time to do that type of content and the ability to do it more than once.

We’ve heard recent rumblings from ArenaNet that they are working on this sort of thing as we speak. Here is me saying I can’t wait to see what they have.

Vayne.8563:

People are simply too focused on dungeons. I don’t really think that was ever Anet’s focus, not even in Guild Wars 1. They’re focused more on the world. When they released War in Kryta in Guild Wars 1 it wasn’t a dungeon. Nor was any of the other new content after Eye of the North came out.

So you ignore the meta event and other new events, the new jumping puzzle, the moa racing and the new drinking game all of which are staying. You ignore that Cragstead has indeed changed and so has Southsun (Southsun has actually changed quite a lot).

You even ignore the guild missions that have changed those areas an added content.

And the new PvP map.

You can say the game hasn’t changed, but what you’re really saying is there hasn’t been a permanent DUNGEON.

That’s only one type of change. And I think you’d be very surprised at how few people actually focus on dungeons out of the entire playerbase, just as many who raid on other games doesn’t see how few people by percentage actually like raiding.

A lot of these discussions are just running in circles, but why not continue it

First let me level set….I am in no way saying ArenaNet is wrong. Whether or not they are ‘right’ or ‘wrong’ will be proven out by their longevity. I never said that game hasn’t changed. I am only pointing out what type of content I would personally like to see.

I don’t speak for every player. I speak for me. Do I think ArenaNet should change the game to suit what only I want? Of course not. But the whole purpose of these forums is for each player to say what they want individually and hope that the entirety of opinions have a chance to drive future game design.

So yes…I am focused on dungeons. And you are right that I ignored guild missions which I haven’t had a chance to experience. But you can’t say I’m too focused on dungeons….just as much as I can’t tell you that you are too focused on enjoying temporary content. We each enjoy what we enjoy and that is what makes us individual players. The content that I personally enjoy most in these games is typically dungeons or open world content that tells an overarching story. Something that makes me feel like I am part of a bigger mission. That I am part of a bigger movement. So I would personally like to see more of that type of content stay around so that I have a longer chance to experience it….and experience it more than once.

One last piece of advice. Another game that I’ve played some is League of Legends. The game designers ended up adding a significant amount of PvE content in a patch after they surprisingly discovered that a significant portion of their player base was not interested PvP. So I would hesitate to state with certainty which types of players make up the majority…..only ArenaNet has enough information in hand to know that.

Shiren.9532:

You’re saying the world is exactly the same as it was before that content but now we have to vote to get the old content to return to the game rather than maintain it as a permanent addition to the game, bolstering the permanent experience?

If someone comes back to the game this month after not being here all year they will find out they missed out on four weapon sets (Flame and Frost one, Karka one, Dragon Bash one, the SAB ones) two dungeons (Molten Facility, Aetherblade Retreat – both of which were only around for a couple of weeks), one mini dungeon (Canache’s Layer), several mini-games (Crab thing, Dragonball, SAB), lots of back items and a several plots. They can’t access these things.

I think that this is an important distinction in a lot of these discussions. What we’ve seen so far is a world that changes and then reverts back, changes again and reverts back again. If you are a player that has consistently been in the game over the last few months, then you’ve had a variety of new experiences that weren’t available when the game launched. However, if you are a returning player the game hasn’t added very much at all in terms of new playable content.

To be fair, the game has changed a lot over the last few months with the laurels, dailies, achievement rewards, etc. But those are things that affect your character when you play through the content…..they aren’t new content to play through.

Now the game released with a good number of dungeons and they did add a new permanent one since it released less than a year ago. As someone who works for a software company I find it incredible that they are able to release new content as fast as they are. If you would have told me in August that within the first year the game would have seen a new permanent dungeon, 2-3 new sPvP maps, a new playable zone, and a plethora of new in-game systems (dailies/monthlies, achievement rewards, WvW leveling system) I would have been excited. The fact that we’ve also seen the incredible amount of other content that has been released as temporary is, in my opinion, stunning.

The disappointing thing for players like me is that there is significant amount of playable content that I will never be able to experience because I didn’t login for a brief period of time. It’s like “hey, we did these awesome things….too bad you’ll never see them!”

It’s very possible that ArenaNet is working on large permanent content as we speak. Obviously there are a number of elder dragons out there other than Zhaitan and new zones to unlock. If we end up getting those types of changes somewhat regularly, then it will help to lessen some of the disappointment in missing other content. If I was getting permanent content every so often and then using the temporary content as a way to hold me off in-between I could definitely live with that. Like I said, that could be exactly the plan but since that hasn’t been explicitly stated I can only talk about my opinions of the current temporary content release design.

killcannon.2576:

Aramean.2354:

Shadow Blade.1324:

a better example would be GW2 where you cannot catch up as those players will always be X amount of time ahead of you (assuming they keep playing) in laurels for acquiring BIS or WvW rank unlocks etc so you will never match them because you are time gated from doing so. you can also never experience the wealth of content that’s been removed from the game

Unfortunately, the only real way prevent time-gating is to put in other methods of slowing players down. I’ve typically found those methods to be frustrating as a player(heavy focus on dailies, weekly lockouts for high-end content, etc.). It’s just the nature of games that people who put more time into them get more out of them.

That’s funny…because there is already a heavy focus on dailies to get gear and achieves, and there is a limit on high end content you can do with guild missions, quartz, how many dungeons you can run in a day at full reward, how many times you can get meta chests.

So you get all three here.

I guess it’s different for me because the slowdowns are preventing you from getting stuff rather than experiencing content. Other games make you do dailies for a month just to become powerful enough to get into certain content. *Keep in mind I haven’t tried out the guild missions, etc. so that could be different.

Look, I get it. Each player is unique and is motivated by different things. Some people are completionists and it really bothers them if there is a chance they will never max out on achievement points. Some people really enjoy getting new gear and the thought of missing a set is disheartening. For me personally, it’s the story driven content and dungeons that draw me the most.

I think there are really good points throughout this whole discussion. Temporary content, for some players, can make the world seem more alive and helps to draw players to the same content. This can be a positive thing. Other players really enjoy ‘getting things done’ in an MMO. It’s the reason that achievement points have permeated all types of games. For those players temporary content only serves as a frustrating way for the game to remind them of what they missed out on.

At the end of the day, ArenaNet is going to continue to release a mix of temporary and permanent content. I’ve already mentioned in a previous post the changes I’d like to see to the temporary content as I’ve not been happy with all of the decisions. Let’s try to keep in mind that this forum is a chance for players to tell the developers what we all personally enjoy and how we would like the game to be tailored to that. It’s one thing to bring up counterpoints….it’s completely another to try to tell someone they are incorrectly enjoying the game. (This isn’t directed at you killcannon…..just the entire discussion in general).

Shadow Blade.1324:

a better example would be GW2 where you cannot catch up as those players will always be X amount of time ahead of you (assuming they keep playing) in laurels for acquiring BIS or WvW rank unlocks etc so you will never match them because you are time gated from doing so. you can also never experience the wealth of content that’s been removed from the game

Unfortunately, the only real way prevent time-gating is to put in other methods of slowing players down. I’ve typically found those methods to be frustrating as a player(heavy focus on dailies, weekly lockouts for high-end content, etc.). It’s just the nature of games that people who put more time into them get more out of them.

Also, I believe that based on their messaging for the game to this point, ArenaNet is not trying to create better gear, just different gear. They have said all along that they don’t want to create a gear treadmill. Those players that have experienced more of the content will absolutely have access to a wider variety of gear but they should not have exclusive access to a higher level of gear.

Vayne.8563:

There’s be another 8-12 chapters of the living story and everyone would be off doing the new stuff and I’d be waiting for people to race with. It’s what happens with old content in MMOs.

This is a very good point Vayne. Especially for all of the open world content, the temporary approach is ArenaNet’s way of telling us what is trending out in the world. It helps to provide a larger sense of community when so many players congegate to the same areas and enjoy the content together. One of their stated goals from the beginning has been to make content where the players welcome other players being around. This is a great way to ensure that happens.

I don’t think, however, that this applies as much to the dungeons specifically. Since that content is designed for 5 players, there is no need for a larger community here. I would personally always like the access to as many dungeons as possible. Now they have already introduced one new permanent dungeon so this isn’t a “you aren’t working fast enough” post. It’s just that they already developed a handful of new dungeons and just aren’t available.

Now because of the way they are implementing personal story, the open world content tells the story behind the dungeon. Since that is temporary it would be hard to keep in the dungeon without leaving in the story that leads up to it. The dungeon would lose it’s context. So I understand that part….I just love dungeons and would love the opportunity to play more of them.

Vayne.8563:

If Anet keeps producing content every 2 weeks (and some of it DOES stay in the world btw), then over a year or two,. there’s going to be a lot more to do in the world an at the same time we still have stuff to do every two weeks.

I agree that they are releasing content fast enough that there is definitely permanent content being added. And I’ve already said that I don’t mind temporary content. I’m just saying there are some things (the dungeons for instance) that I would prefer to be able to do for a longer period of time.

The thing that all of us have to keep in mind is that each player is unique and motivated by different things. In it’s simplest form, the reason that temporary content is a hot-button issue is that there is content being released that the players like…and at some point it is taken away and they can’t have fun with it anymore.

Now everyone has different opinions on what parts of the content are fun and what parts they could do without. But the main theme is that there was something available in game that we enjoyed doing and it’s just not there anymore.

Almost every MMO I’ve ever played has had temporary content in some form. Whether it be holiday events or story content leading up to an expansion there has always been at least a bit of content that was only available for a short time. The difference with GW2 is the type of content that is released as temporary and the sheer quantity. For some, the temporary nature of the content may help to create a more immersive and alive world. For others, it may just serve to limit the content available to them.

For me personally, I would like to have a mix of both. For content that is more sandbox-style content (jumping puzzles, mini games, scavenger hunts, holiday events) I don’t mind the temporary nature. These things allow players to experience the world in a different way and keeping these things fresh can be exciting. Other content is story-driven and develops characters, changes the world, and creates new enemies to face. This is the type of content that I would love to see be more permanent. A good story is typically one you want to experience more than once. Just like there are movies I watch regularly and books I enjoy rereading, good story content in an MMO is something I enjoy experiencing again and again.

For me, I don’t mind the concept of temporary content. Seasonal holidays and one-time events that are having an effect on the world can actually make a lot of sense to be implemented as temporary.

My overall disappointment is with what types of content is made temporary and with how small of a time-frame some of the content is available for. For example, the holiday events that we’ve experienced like the winter holiday and the mad king event make total sense to be temporary. I really enjoyed some of that content so I hope some of the same stuff returns at the same time this year but I’m not upset that this was temporary content. Even the current bazaar activities, which are really fun IMO, make sense to be temporary but I’ll miss them when they are gone.

What I don’t understand is why the new gathering material is going to be temporary. I know that you can get permanent access to it by completing the meta achievement but I don’t like that decision. Armor and weapon skins that reflect the current content totally make sense as something that is temporarily available. But a new stat set that is an addition to all of the professions feels like something that should be permanent. If I couldn’t get on this month, for whatever reason, I would not have access to creating gear with the new stats. That seems like something that could be added permanently. For example, they added the Apothecary set and kept the karka shells as something everyone could get to regardless of whether or not they experienced the initial content of the zone. Again, skins make total sense to be a limited time availability but I wish the new stat sets and profession updates would be permanent.

The only other complaint that I have is that some of the dungeons were available for 2 weeks or less. That time frame just seems too short to me. It’s actually somewhat sad to see a new dungeon that the development team worked so kitten be temporary content….but I understand that some of these dungeons are around to tell a story that is part of ever-changing content….so I get the temporary idea there. I just wish ‘temporary’ was at least a month to give people adequate time to experience them.

Overall, I don’t mind temporary content. I just hope that (as ArenaNet has said recently) that there is more permanent content coming soon and as stated above I would love to see some minor tweaks to how they approach temporary content.

There are a lot of pve zones where the respawn rates seem too high. Straights of Devastation is one that comes to mind but there are portions of all zones that have this problem. If I’m fighting with a friend, we kill a mob, start on the next mob and have the one behind us join the fight partway in. It’s hard to move forward on maps when the enemies respawn at that rate. I think this would solve much of the ‘too dense’ issue that other players are bringing up.

Zetoe.1327:

My problem isn’t specifically with how weak healing is, and isn’t evwn my main argument. My point is more that there’s no actual sense of teamwork. all your “teamwork” is passive. There’s no cohesive unit.

I never played GW1 and came from a mostly WoW background. When I first started playing this game I had the same types of thoughts about support that you do. I was so used to a game that put each person in specific roles that GW2 was culture shock. I was used to each person having a different role and as long as each person filled that role correctly, you would succeed. That became how I viewed teamwork. Out of a group of 5 people you would need some defensive guys, some offensive guys and some support guys.

In GW2 they basically stopped having unique roles. Instead they made it so that everyone is responsible for all of the roles. Each player has to have some way to do damage, stay alive and support others. Teamwork in GW2 is everyone being on their game in all of those roles.

I just completed a dungeon with my guild yesterday and we are getting a lot better at them. At the start we discuss who is bringing what to the table so we can ensure that we have ways to cleanse conditions, heal, apply boons, control the mobs, stay alive, and bring people up from the downed state.

Teamwork in GW2 isn’t player 1 being the damage guy, player 2 being the defensive guy and player 3 supporting everyone. Teamwork is putting down that light field at the right time so everyone’s projectiles cure conditions. It’s saving that aegis buff so the team can withstand an early onslaught of damage from a big group. It’s throwing out that blind at the right time to cause the boss to miss a big attack. Each person needs to bring all of that to the table. When everyone is doing as much as possible, the fights go smoother and get easier.

I know some people that prefer the WoW style of teamwork with separate roles. It’s possible you just like that style of gameplay better and that’s fine. I actually like both and have fun in either style. But the GW2 style isn’t a lack of teamwork….it’s just a different kind.

My party just had an issue getting into Ascalonian Catacombs on the Stormbluff Isle server.

The first attempt, we had a full guild group formed. Our first party member was at the dungeon entrance and walked through. The rest of us were in the Plains of Ashford and got the popup. We all clicked to join our party member….dialog disappeared but nothing happened.

Then we all got to the dungeon entrance and walked in. We all chose story mode but each got into a separate instance of the dungeon. The first member could no longer get into the dungeon at all.

At this point we all exited and none of us could walk back into the dungeon. We would get the popup to enter story mode but after clicking ‘Join’ the dialog would disappear leaving us outside.

We all shutdown the client, relogged and reformed the party. We used the ‘Join party member’ menu option to all get into the same instance of Plains of Ashford. I walked into the dungeon, chose story mode, and got in. Then I asked my party members to walk in as well. We all got in but we were each by ourselves in a separate instance.

For reference, two of our members were lvl 30 and had not run the dungeon before. The other three had completed it on story mode and have not attempted explorable mode.