Guild Wars 2

LordByron.8369:

its not true that ANY profession can be effective at support defense and DPS at the same time..

I d argue that only 2 can and that is exactly the reason why they are so requested.

Example In fotm pug you don t care wich build of guardian you get…dps or support will make your run easy anyway…

If you have more than one you can almost afk…i say this from months but seems someone posted a vid of semiafk bloomhunger kill with 2 guardians in dungeon section….. (cleric gear)

And devs want to change crit damage…..

(take an ele…the second it wants to get ANY FORM of support, it loses just 50% of his dps AT LEAST).

I am sad. All those lines and you only retain that?
Well, let’s be picky then. I never said professions can do it all, I talked about players. That is the reason there are two most wanted professions : because players know that with them they can do it all with little compromise.

Better now?

I am one of those that think that DPS needs a rework in the game. This game was brought with the idea that you can do anything and have fun. Nice idea. But not only you can do anything, from DPS to support to control, but you can do it all at the same time WITHOUT COMPROMISE. This is the sad state : anyone can do anything, but we are all doing the same.
Why I don’t like it? Because it is boring as hell but doing anything but the most optimal feels unatural.

There are two things that bother me :
- balance (this is obvious, who does not want a balanced game? And balance means compromise)
- stacking gameplay (this is purely subjective)

Still, and before the flaming, I think that if Anet goes for the easy route of nerfing DPS damage from gear they are doing it wrong. DPS players SHOULD be doing the best DPS. They just should not be doing the best of everything else.

For the stacking there is no easy solution :
I think the thing to revise in priority is the encounters AI and the technical limitations of other types of damage/control. I don’t talk about the lambda trash, but bosses. I find it hard to understand why the IA can’t at least understand that everyone is stacked on his toes or running around like a headless chicken and react to it.

For the balance, I think that Anet tried a too complex approach and now the game is a balance nightmare. Now this is how I would have done it. I know this is never going to happen, but why not think about it for some minutes at least?
An easy balance needs simple character builds and gear.

My crazy idea would have been :
- Weapons would only give power, no other stat
- Armors only toughness
- Sigils unchanged
- Runes : remove stats, only secondary effects
- Trinkets : same as runes.
- Total endurance will counterbalance toughness (heavy classes only one bar, medium two and light three).
- All players would have the same base stats apart from that
- Boons are shared with the team with no distance check. There will be a range check for people outside the group.
- All profession skill trees would have the same separation to force compromising (same separation not same skills/traits in them!!!):
— A branch of Power and Endurance Regen
-- A Branch of Conditions and Condition Duration
— A Branch of Toughness and Boon Duration
-- A Branch of Vitality and Healing Power
— A Specific Branch for each Profession.

Of Course each branch would contain the traits associated to each discipline.
Players would have ot compromise. If they go full power and Conditions they would have poor boon duration toughness, healing and vitality, being more susceptible to conditions and having less active defenses and no access to specific class branch.
If they go full toughness/Power they do no condition damage, are weak against conditions and can’t boos their specific branch.

Crazy and surely not optimal, but diversity is born from compromise. As long as anyone can do it ALL everyone will do the same.

PS : Oh, yes : get rid of critical increasing stats. It’s a nightmare to balance. In a game without dexterity stat they make no sense.

Now, this is more for the next MMO developer that might happen to pass through these forums. Wink Wink…
For Anet : don’t go the easy nerf route, please.

Well, let’s stop here.
There is nothing more annoying that people trying to make me say thing I did not.

Every kind of play whould bring somethign to a team and this is rendered impossible as long as ONE playstile can do it all.

Now, go on preaching how good you are and how the rest are crap just because they don’t like how the game throws 80% of the build diversity out of the window.

Bye.

@NoTrigger
Don’t get me wrong : I feel DPS is an important part of any team. But should be only one part of it.
Say you want to DPS : 5 group DPS should be able to do the encounter efficiently, by timing their skills. But! What is incoherent is that bringing one other type of build only is a minus and never a plus. Heal? What fo? You can do it. Support? You proved yourself you can boost your DPS toon alone with no problems. Controls? You had enough blocks, reflects…
You can do anything! I don’t mean that this does not require skill : I mean that bringing any other type of player will only be a minus.

@haviz
Please, stop putting words in my mouth. I am wanting to have other types of builds ‘be a plus’ to the DPS of the encounters and not a minus like they are now. Going all the way to the otehr extreme would be just as bad.

The thing is, DPS builds can do heal, boon, control, support… Everything. Skill is needed, sure, but an equally skilled control/support player just brings nothing to the team and this is where the game fails.

@NoTrigger
It is strange how you keep opposing good DPS players to lame players that do anything else.
You know what I saw in your video that stucks me as incoherent : perma vigor.
DPS + perma vigor = possibility to void any damage in the game.

Yes, if you do a false movement you are doomed, but this is true for any other build.

AS I said before, the problem is that you can do EVERYTHING by going the DPS route. Dodge, heal, boost, damage, control, …

This is what I talk about when saying there is no downside.
And if you can’t at least remove one of those, it kills any need of diversity in a team.

But don’t worry, I see your point. You are having fun with the game as it is and don’t want any change.
Many of us are not having fun because the game is broken.

Call us bads if it makes you feel better.

NoTrigger.8396:

BeoErgon.9107:

I don’t really know how they will get out of this mess.

I know people will not see it like me, but there should be a nerf of DPS builds. Why? For the simple reason that DPS builds need no one in PVE. As long as this is true, there will never be any need of the other builds.

Pure DPS can 100% mitigate any damage with dodging, they can buff themselves, they can remove their conditions, they can burst heal themselves.

Why need anything else?

The problem is that there is no downside to go full DPS and this makes any alternative useless in PVE. And don’t try to tell this is not true. This is the selling point of all the pro-DPS zerkers : anything else is sub-par and useless.

Now you can flame me all you want, but this is how I see it.

If nothing is removed from the DPS meta, nothing will change… Be it by nerfing the builds or reworking the IA to make a full DPS team less viable (I don’t say less viable that others… just reduce their current effectiveness), adjustments need to be done.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXvuSbAZFjk

and now i would like to hear from you,
do you really believe it is going to be fun for me to use any crappy tanky gear or condition damage builds?

i will be bored. im even bored right now.

nerfing berserker wont do anything except make people who play at a certain level quit the game.
arenanet has to deliver more challenging and difficult content.
the result will be: good players will still be using berserker.
bad players wont.

You mean showing me that you can solo a boss that is supposed be for 5 players is currently proving your point?
It only shows how broken the game is.

And no one will force you to use anything but zerker. I am not saying to render zerker play worse than others. Just level things. Zerker has no downsides.

Fenrir.3609:

BeoErgon.9107:

spoj.9672:

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Are people, like, not aware that you can just made another set of gear if Anet actually does nerf zerk? It’s not like you’re limited to one set of gear per character or anything like that.

After spending 1000g on ascended gear I dont think ill be too pleased about that.

This is part of the mess I was talking about. Their super idea of ascended that stuck people more or less to one role is coming to haunt Anet and limit their actions.

I will sit down and see how they are going to do it.

PS : I think they can’t really do much, but we will see.

Make ascended like legendaries in that you can switch stats as and when you like “outside of combat” and you resolve the issue.

Ofc that doesn’t detract from the fact that a nerf to zerk without some kind of combat mechanics alteration makes zero sense.

I would go for an even crazier idea : remove stats from weapons and armor. Only skill setup should make a difference in builds. Armors should give toughness and weapons power, that’s all.
This would need a big rework of the skill trees though.

spoj.9672:

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Are people, like, not aware that you can just made another set of gear if Anet actually does nerf zerk? It’s not like you’re limited to one set of gear per character or anything like that.

After spending 1000g on ascended gear I dont think ill be too pleased about that.

This is part of the mess I was talking about. Their super idea of ascended that stuck people more or less to one role is coming to haunt Anet and limit their actions.

I will sit down and see how they are going to do it.

PS : I think they can’t really do much, but we will see.

I don’t really know how they will get out of this mess.

I know people will not see it like me, but there should be a nerf of DPS builds. Why? For the simple reason that DPS builds need no one in PVE. As long as this is true, there will never be any need of the other builds.

Pure DPS can 100% mitigate any damage with dodging, they can buff themselves, they can remove their conditions, they can burst heal themselves.

Why need anything else?

The problem is that there is no downside to go full DPS and this makes any alternative useless in PVE. And don’t try to tell this is not true. This is the selling point of all the pro-DPS zerkers : anything else is sub-par and useless.

Now you can flame me all you want, but this is how I see it.

If nothing is removed from the DPS meta, nothing will change… Be it by nerfing the builds or reworking the IA to make a full DPS team less viable (I don’t say less viable that others… just reduce their current effectiveness), adjustments need to be done.

thefantasticg.3984:

Ok. I’ll remember the account name of the OP just incase he ever hot joins one of my groups I’ll instantly kick. I don’t want to play with that type of person… I PLAY HOW I WANT and WITH WHO I WANT… And I’ll do it drunk too.

And jesus… Why would you want to run a dungeon 1000 times and run each one as inefficiently as possible? That just sounds like utter torture and I’m not even hardcore. I just want loot. So, to get loot as much as possible as fast as possible that means I have to play to the meta and dps as much as possible as fast as possible and everyone else in my party needs to as well. If they don’t like it they can GTF0 of my party.

Oo
The OP came asking if the build was good.

You are a bit too quick to kick, don’t you think? It’s me the “Play how you want” guy. My main is Katheleen if you want more information.

But as long as you put the right info in lfg no risk I end in your party.

And to answer you, I don’t play for tokens, I play to pass some time, have fun, get a kick with my toon by playing it to my beliefs.

PS : no pun intended with the ‘get a kick’

Don’t worry,
my workday just finished.

I know I don’t see the game like some others, and specially like the majority of the Dungeons subforum. But I like arguments and discussions and this subforum seems like a neat place for a “play how you want” player like me to find guys to ‘talk to’ when I am bored at work.

Truth to be told I am surprised and pleased that the conversation lasted so long without falling under the usual forum insults.

But well, let’s pack and go home.

A last little question for the gurus of this subforum : would you really mind if other play styles were as efficient as melee DPS? Do you like playing the META whatever it is or you really really like playing melee DPS?

Pure curiosity.
Bye.

Is it me Nemesis’s fanboy? Never heard of him before this topic.
Hope you are not talking about me.

@Gnat.
Come on, don’t go making so round conclusive posts. Spoils my fun and I was bored at work.

@Nike
Well, that for sure is for debate.
I maybe make a quick assumption by thinking useless skill => broken skill, but the result is the same.
As long as other playstiles only hinder the efficiency of a team it means they are useless and broken. That a cleric means less survival because more dps = less damage just shows how this is broken. That two condition users overstep each other is broken. That confusion never lasts enough to be significant is broken. That pets are a hindrance most of the time is broken.

Now, you can claim that it is working fine. If you think so I can do nothing. We don’t agree, that is all.

PS : Oh, and I have lots of problems, not only that one

Coffee pause. Here we go.

@ Nikaido
Will watch the video later, thanks for the link.
And stop saying what I did not say, please. Oh… put out clones and go afk? Come on! A clone should be more like an opportune aegis or a dodge, fooling the boss into not hitting me of course. But… news for everyone, a clone does not do any damage. Did you forget the part I talked about ‘bitting his kitten ’ wile he was turned around?
How it is that negating all the distance shots of a boss with my focus or spell is nice, but negating it with a clone is ‘afk’ lazy behavior? You are kind of biased here, no?

@fadeaway
I am starting to feel that not being english is seriously a handicap here. Where the hell did I say people had no right to play zerk? I said I did not want to be ‘forced’ to play zerk melee to be efficient.
And for the rest your nonsense. Are people playing META zerk because they like it? Or because other playstyles are so seriously broken and they have little choice if they don’t want to feel like clowns? Think about it.

I took the lest tragic route.
I crafted myself light of Dwayna FOR the SKIN
I could have crafted a couple of weapons for the price but they are ugly as hell.

I will grind for skins (stubborn me) … as long as there are nice skins. As for the rest? Don’t know. Don’t care.

I still try to play the game as intended at the start : grind for being pwetty.

PS : I am really looking forward to the level cap increase to see half of the GW2 population cry when lvl90 exotics get the same stats as grindy lvl80 ascended. Well, I hope this does not happen and they uplevel the crafted gear, but if it happens I will laugh really hard.

Nike Porphyrogenita.8137:

BeoErgon.9107:

Needing to time controls, add to the overall DPS or dodge is not exclusive to those sitting on the toes of the mob as much as you would like to believe. Sometimes those at distance need to dodge even more and be proactive.

But no, I don’t want trinity. I want dynamic equal roles among the different specs. That a control/condi/support/distance specced toon becomes a plus and not a minus. Or even better : not a plus, simply an equal than a stacking zerk.

It’s really the use here in this forum to put words in the mouth of people?

What you’re missing, either intentionally or through ignorance, is that those things you’re talking about: buffing, CC etc are all things people do in speed runs and they are largely class specific. Just because everyone is meleeing does not mean that there is no CC role in combat, no buffing happening in combat etc. Nikaido said this already, I am just restating. The only thing I can understand is if you want to do CC or buffing or healing but you don’t want to be in melee combat, which unfortunately, is not this game.

Oops, one last then.

I will tell you what I want : I want my mesmer to be a mesmer, to fool the boss, to make him follow my clones, to make him waste hits on them while bitting him in the kitten , to stop him on his tracks, I want my confusion to last enough for at last one hit of the boss, the heck, make it two!!!…

What I don’t want? Stay on his toes. Doesn’t make sense to me for a mesmer and I don’t like it.

spoj.9672:

Well not really because thats just risk vs reward. Excluding certain fights which arent very well designed. If you are spreading out and ranging then it makes sense that it doesnt work as well, you dont share buffs as much and you are using safer dps options so it should be less dps and slower. Its fine bar a few fights where its over so quick that there is no challenge even for a bunch of newbies in dps gear. Thats not really an issue with the game though. Thats an issue with many encounters within the game. They are too easy.

We agree in something at least
There is an issue with many encounters. I said above that I thought one of the biggest problems was the IA of the bosses. Too binary and too primal.

I have other issues with the game though. But let’s stop. My boss is back.

I want just to thank you for arguing a bit with me during my pause and without any condescending allusions. It’s refreshing in these forums nowadays.

spoj.9672:

Some parts are broken. I wont deny that. But to say the whole stacking melee and going full dps is broken is a bit far. Thats what I was getting at.

Difficult to think that something that works so well is broken, right?
Yes, I know.

It’s not that full melee dps works that is broken, it is that anything else does not work half as good that is broken.
It is a slight but important difference.

spoj.9672:

I dont think anyone here is against improvements to the game to allow more build diversity. But being against a whole community just because its not at that stage yet is unfair. Theres always a meta and it might seem pretty bland in gw2 at the moment but for min maxers the fun comes from being useful and efficient, build diversity is a minor issue for us. So whatever works the best will be used. If the game changed and a tank was needed we would start using a tank.

However this game was designed not to have specific roles like tank and healer and that really is a great system. No waiting for hours for that 1 troll tank that leaves halfway through the dungeon, no complete sole reliance on one member of each party. Any party works, but not all are optimal. This is a good concept. You just need to accept that the optimal way of playing might not be something you enjoy. That doesnt mean its broken just because its not to your liking.

Yes, I know, I am on a quote fest now, I got bored at work…

Could have agreed 100% with you here. Except for the last sentence. And this is a matter completely subjective, because I could just return you your phrase.

The heck. I am bored so here we go : Because you enjoy it does not mean it is not broken.
As far as I know there are lots of people that enjoy exploiting the dungeon paths. Does not make the exploits less broken.

Edit before the flaming : I do not mean you people here exploit! It was an example of something people might enjoy that is broken!

Bread.7516:

BeoErgon.9107:

Don’t worry. I make sure never ever enter a party with zerk/gear check definition. Not my style to annoy people that don’t want me. I stressed this enough I think that people have that right.

What I am questioning is the state of a game that sees those kind of requirements appear and what is becoming of the dungeons in this game : a replacement of the trinity by one unity.

I hated the restriction of the trinity. I hate even more GW2 tendency for the ‘unity’.

And as Nemesis said, I don’t really think that the devs intended it to end like this.

Well, from my dungeon running experience, this unity comes in the form of the people you run with. I run with a few people i know all the time, i know what they’re going to do, i know what their next move is – so with this i can push my limits because i know they have my butt covered.

The idea is more rooted by personal skill, movement, and habits rather than builds. Many people not familiar with team sports or combat will not be able to realize this subtle differences, but it is a huge impact on overall performance.

As with diversity, we all would like more and I doubt anyone here would argue that. What mainly annoys us are people who preach that a certain sub-optimal build that’s really low dps is on par or better than the current meta without evidence. This is mainly the source of the friction.

Edit for your edit because of my edit: (lol)
Well for me isn’t that what a soldier ideally is? good at everything.
Where the difference is the utility skills each class brings which are unique – specialization.

Nothing to say.
Just a precision: I am a PUG exclusive user (by choice again, blame me). I was talking about PUGing. Never ever a PUG, whatever the game, will surpass a coordinated team of players that use to play together.
You talk more about playing with the same people over and over. In this case you can talk freely about min/maxing because you are in the ideal configuration.
Still, maybe, if the meta build for dungeons was to put confusion on the boss and run around like a chicken you would feel the sadness I feel when the meta is stack DPS. My favorite toon is a mesmer. I played it at the beginning how I liked. I enjoyed it. I then searched for the meta and played it in meta form. I got bored as hell. It was not what I envisioned for a mesmer. Now I changed again, playing even with conditions as poor as they are in PVE currently, and I am having a blast… except in dungeons where I feel underrated.
80% of my mesmer skills are useless in dungeons as they currently are.

Nike Porphyrogenita.8137:

BeoErgon.9107:

But why do you have to consider other playstyles but zerk as ‘afk bot’? Aren’t you being a little condescending here? When you ask for respect you should start by giving some and stopping your assumptions on what other people want.

He is correct though. When people say, “I want healing builds to be viable” what they are really saying is, “I want to sit behind the rest of my party, basically out of combat, spamming heals on the people fighting and making green bars go up.”

Or when people say, “I want control builds to be viable” what they are saying is, “I want to run around with my hammer knocking down bosses, not dealing any particularly good damage, but just CCing them using a simple chain of skills because I like the aesthetic of knocking down big bosses with a hammer.”

Or when people say, “I want support builds to be viable” what they are saying is, “I want to sit at the back (next to the healer) out of combat casting buffs on my party and debuffing the enemy.”

The commonality all these things have is they don’t really want to be involved in any of the fighting, they don’t want to have to dodge attacks and they dont want to use twitch skills. These are people who want the old trinity system where weak players can get carried through raids by being buffbots or healbots and not having to try especially hard to help the group succeed.

All this is assuming a broken game as it is right now, with no consequences at all if you get external support/control or not.

Needing to time controls, add to the overall DPS or dodge is not exclusive to those sitting on the toes of the mob as much as you would like to believe. Sometimes those at distance need to dodge even more and be proactive.

And please, if you are saying that healers in trinity or tanks did not need to ‘get involved too hard’ I don’t know what to tell you. Mostly ALL THE COMBAT depended on them. Sure, the introduction of external mods made those roles become one touch bots, but the role by itself was CRITICAL for any combat.

But no, I don’t want trinity. I want dynamic equal roles among the different specs. That a control/condi/support/distance specced toon becomes a plus and not a minus. Or even better : not a plus, simply an equal than a stacking zerk.

It’s really the use here in this forum to put words in the mouth of people?

haviz.1340:

BeoErgon.9107:

And as Nemesis said, I don’t really think that the devs intended it to end like this.

They might have not intended this but that’s what happens when you design your game that way. That includes limited radius of boon sharing, cleaving of most melee attacks, virtually no punishment for getting interrupted, abundance of reflects and many other culprits.

I thinks it is a sum of several points:
- Sloppy IA (in other MMOs bosses could detect DPS and heals and act accordingly. Why can’t bosses here detect all those flies clinging to his skirt and kick them away for example?)
- The other side of the coin of the “play how you want”: they made all the specs too self sufficient. A DPS needs no one => no one needs anything but DPS.

I will continue to play on my side, don’t worry guys.

Bread.7516:

BeoErgon.9107:

I agree. You are right. Never once I did not say you are not playing the game as it is.

But why do you have to consider other playstyles but zerk as ‘afk bot’? Aren’t you being a little condescending here? When you ask for respect you should start by giving some and stopping your assumptions on what other people want.

I don’t want bot heal. I want for every spec to have its ups and downs. If a ‘zerk’ can do anything and everything it removes any interest in the other playstyles. Full dps should benefit from other classes/specs instead of loosing efficiency because of them.

But again : I am pretty sure you think this works as intended. I am sure it does not; but as many of you here already complained: there is no dungeon team to tune all this.

Playing the game as it is is the normal way to go. Wanting a game to be improved is too.

Will things change because I think that? Surely not.

His point is mainly playing the game as it is, not playing the game wishing what it could be.

Everyone is free to want more, but when playing the game and using these sub-optimal builds – that’s a sure way of many vets not accepting you in their party and that is their party and their call.

Don’t worry. I make sure never ever enter a party with zerk/gear check definition. Not my style to annoy people that don’t want me. I stressed this enough I think that people have that right.

What I am questioning is the state of a game that sees those kind of requirements appear and what is becoming of the dungeons in this game : a replacement of the trinity by one unity.

I hated the restriction of the trinity. I hate even more GW2 tendency for the ‘unity’.

And as Nemesis said, I don’t really think that the devs intended it to end like this.

Edit for your edit :
No healers I can deal with… The issue here is that the warriors here (and I mean warriors in the front line combatants sense ) are at the same time healers, tanks, dps, control, support…

Nikaido.3457:

BeoErgon.9107:

I think this is OK with you, but it saddens me. I don’t like the zerk playstyle as efficient as it might be. I would love for control and support to weight as much as dps in encounters.

We use ton of support. Blind aegis stability reflection projectile absorption ring of warding line of warding knockdown knockback pulls stacking might fury vuln AoE cond removal […]. Just not the afk healbot thing you’d like to see in the game.

And the difference between us and your “play as you want” is that we play the game the way it actually is, while you play the game under some sort of different/parallel world fantasy where using a control build would enforce a control gameplay, which obviously doesn’t happen. Just look at the tense you used yourself. “I would love for”. Conditional. That’s because the actual game doesn’t support your way of thinking. It doesn’t weight as much and no amount of wishful thinking is going to make it happen. You’re all almost like TC’s roleplayers. You’re roleplaying in dungeons instead of open world. Roleplaying healbots and tanks groups.

I agree. You are right. Never once I did not say you are not playing the game as it is.

But why do you have to consider other playstyles but zerk as ‘afk bot’? Aren’t you being a little condescending here? When you ask for respect you should start by giving some and stopping your assumptions on what other people want.

I don’t want bot heal. I want for every spec to have its ups and downs. If a ‘zerk’ can do anything and everything it removes any interest in the other playstyles. Full dps should benefit from other classes/specs instead of loosing efficiency because of them.

But again : I am pretty sure you think this works as intended. I am sure it does not; but as many of you here already complained: there is no dungeon team to tune all this.

Playing the game as it is is the normal way to go. Wanting a game to be improved is too.

Will things change because I think that? Surely not.

Galen,
Are you seriously comparing the buff a 1s piece of food gives compared to the buff of hundreds of gold costing ascended gear?

The question is equity. Anyone can have food buffs. Not everyone can have full ascended gear. This gives an advantage (as small as it might be) that many of us find misplaced.

It is as if you got stuck in gold gear while others are in exotics. You start with a handicap that many of us find annoying.

You all here in the dungeon forum have proved one thing : you know the meta build. No one can take this from you. You found the most efficient way of beating the dungeons.

But I understand Nemesis point too.

More and more in the lfg we find demands for zerk/scholar warriors and gear ping. You are as free as you want to claim this. After all it is the most effective combination.

But it should not.

I liked the idea of this game being “play as you want” in the sense of not having to face again the restrictive dungeon group searches that the trinity brought. Now we are slowly but surely replacing LF1M tank or healer by LF4M zerk warriors.

I think this is OK with you, but it saddens me. I don’t like the zerk playstyle as efficient as it might be. I would love for control and support to weight as much as dps in encounters.

And this is where I agree with Nemesis that the game is broken. AS proud as you are to be able to solo the dungeon bosses and as impressive I find this is, it does not take away the feeling from me that a dungeon boss SHOULD not be soloable in the first place.

I will not talk about exploits since I feel most of the people here are not using them. But the dungeons are broken if one class and spec overshadows all the other.

Now, as a proud defender of the “play as you want” many here seem to despise, this also includes you : you have all the right in the world to require what your team should wear and what people you want to play with. But I feel that if the dungeons were better designed and other specs more efficient you would be less stressed about who joins you.

^^
One thing for sure : with the size of the Pale tree the roots should go for miles… They are maybe tickling some sleeping dragon ear underground.

Saturn.6591:

Uh, now that’s a really nice view! =0

<3

Thanks for sharing. ^^

Now while talking about looking exactly the same and confusing people…:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Drqa2lV-zyo

Thanks for posting this . It made my day. Hilarious…

Evelynddra.9265:

BeoErgon.9107:

During the CDI for vertical progression I asked many and many times for that question: will level cap increase?

Never got an answer.

I said each time that without that information, all the CDI on vertical progression was void and null. It’s an essential information to talk about progression and they never ever dared to answer.

Real great ideas in the vertical progression thread… but they are all void if they increase the level cap (which has been said elsewhere that they will do).

It is what baffles me about the CDI. It is supposed to be a conversation but they answered none of the questions players made. A conversation is supposed to be both ways.

I suppose that they had strict instructions not to talk about was going to be done, but anyways. Talking about vertical progression without that key information is useless.

This thread, and others like it, are exactly why ArenaNet wouldn’t directly answer that. That’s why we always get vague answers of soon in regards to content. Because once someone says something, people uphold it as law. Just like the comment in the interview about getting best gear before hitting 80.

It’s incredibly unfortunate, and presents a sort of catch-22. The community berates ArenaNet for not communicating, but then it tears them a new one when it doesn’t come excatly when and how it was said. Change is a part of MMOs. They’re not like console games. They don’t remain static. So you should always understand that whatever they say is subject to changes (pretty sure that’s in the terms and conditions too). Whenever and why ever.

I am most aware of this.
Still, talking about the vertical progression without knowing if the level cap was going to be increased or not was useless. Everything said was based on the current game and current lvl80 ascended. The comunity talked long, doing their best to make proposals, trying to bring the game to something better. If level 90 comes during the year everything is void and all those that contributed to the CDI will feel like clowns.

Why wait for the level increasing to come before asking the player how they feel about it? They did it with ascended and you can see the tearing it brought to the comunity.

It is their game and they are right to make the choices they feel are necessary. But hiding those changes until the end only brings frustration.

Clear comunication might raise questionning.
Bad communication only raises frustration and the feeling that they don’t care about us.

VOLKON.1290:

Leamas.5803:

Skan.5301:

Leamas.5803:

mesme.5028:

And when the level cap is increased, will we all start again in the new level cap greens?

If they increase the level cap, I will leave the game permanently.

They’ve already said that they’re going to increase the cap at some point.

And that’s fine. I’ll play until that point and move to something else. The only way I’ll stay is if they automatically bump 80s and 80 gear up to the new level cap (Which I can’t see happening). I’ve already leveled my 80(s) and have no interest in grinding out 20 more levels and new gear. This would be a game ender for me, and I know I’m by no means alone in this opinion.

I’d be surprised if they did now… ascended gear and the time and effort that goes into it don’t seem like the type of gear you throw away as a new tier comes along (or a level bump). They may have had been considering that as an option pre-ascended, but the way ascended is designed if there were ever a level cap increase unless they upgraded all ascended gear you’d never see it crafted again.

There’s one thing GW2 doesn’t and probably never will need is a level cap increase. It simply doesn’t make sense to do so.

During the CDI for vertical progression I asked many and many times for that question: will level cap increase?

Never got an answer.

I said each time that without that information, all the CDI on vertical progression was void and null. It’s an essential information to talk about progression and they never ever dared to answer.

Real great ideas in the vertical progression thread… but they are all void if they increase the level cap (which has been said elsewhere that they will do).

It is what baffles me about the CDI. It is supposed to be a conversation but they answered none of the questions players made. A conversation is supposed to be both ways.

I suppose that they had strict instructions not to talk about was going to be done, but anyways. Talking about vertical progression without that key information is useless.

VOLKON.1290:

darkace.8925:

VOLKON.1290:

morrolan.9608:

VOLKON.1290:

The reason ascended was introduced makes perfect sense in my opinion. They simply didn’t expect exotics to become so plentiful and easy to get.

This is incorrect and has been proven to be so by quotes in this thread.

No it isn’t.

You couldn’t possibly be more wrong. Collin Johanson himself said, and I quote, “everyone, including casual gamers, by level 80 should have the best statistical loot in the game.”

Actually you’re wrong. All level 80 characters do and did have access to the best statistical loot in the game. You don’t reach level 80 then have to go through a series of weekly dungeon and raid runs to eventually get access to the best statistical loot… it’s all available as soon as you hit 80.

In other MMOs (like WoW for example) you’d have to level up to 80 (at the time for me), then you’ve only just begun the grind of trying to gain access to the best statistical loot. You’d run dungeons to get gear for heroic dungeons and raids, only to get gear for the next raid, ad infinitum.

The best statistical loot in the game is available as soon as you hit level 80. Before you could get it overnight. Now it takes a little longer if you’re driven to getting ascended.

Volkon. There is a big difference between “should have the best statistical loot” and “should have ACCESS to the best statistical loot”.

Big big difference.

Hey!
Crazy idea time here…
If she is targeting the Grove and talks about secrets deep below, could it be possible that we are going to go and see the Pale Tree roots? Maybe the reason the Pale Tree has access to the dream is somehow tied to his roots : they might be sourcing in some strange lay line, or maybe they passed through an underground abandoned asura gate and are drinking from some other place in the mists?

Just throwing ideas around… I really don’t think anything about the poem…

Volkon is right.
They introduced Ascended saying that exos were far too easy to obtain (or at least said so, if they had other reasons they never communicated them).

It does not make sense since exos (BIS) were supposed to be like that, but well… Their game their rules I guess

Nikaido.3457:

That’s your problem. Dungeons are meant for organized groups and as such your point is irrelevant. It doesn’t matter if some random breaks something. How can you even do a “misplaced” CC? Are you spamming your whole weapon skill bar every time something is out of cooldown?

I only PUG because of several reasons.
Communication in PUG fights is hazardous at the best. And yes, you can misplace a key and use a CC not intentionally. Errors happen. Say you see the defiant stack is down to 1. You want to bring it to zero for the next big attack.
A pity! The guy next to you had the same idea… Defiant stack reseted.
My problem becomes the party problem.

There is no reason to have defiant. Period. Without it at least control skills would be of some use. An no one will go the stun lock route for the same reason you said: it would take and awful amount of time.

But at least we would be able to use ALL of our skills efficiently.

An Siorai Tharian.4516:

BeoErgon.9107:

Oo
Still amazed how people can say an increase is not an increase because they decided so…

Want to see people start shouting? Let PVP players use ascended. That would be lots of laughs for me.

wouldn’t it just be the ascended skins, and not the ascended stats that PvP players get?

And… strictly speaking World Vs. World is technically a type of Player vs. Player by most conventional definitions. So strictly speaking they already can use Ascended gear while participating in PvP, it just has to be of the World vs. World sort of PvP.

No, I am talking abotu letting PVP use the real ascended gear with the ascended stats. Since everybody is claiming that ascended stats makes no difference why not?
I am sure I would love to sit and watch the reactions of the PVP crowd.

And yes, I know WvW is a sort of PVP, but people tend to ignore this. The fact that yo ucan use ascended in it seems to bother none of the ’increase in stats is nothing" crowd.

Oo
Still amazed how people can say an increase is not an increase because they decided so…

Want to see people start shouting? Let PVP players use ascended. That would be lots of laughs for me.

Junkpile.7439:

Have maximum stats.

This. In any RPG game having max stats IS part of the content.

/thread

Vayne,
Seriously. The manifesto as you pointed out is maybe misleading, but when they talked about no grind before fun, and following all other explanations in consecutive interviews that meant no grind for BIS.

You were trying to imply that when they talked about no grind this did not include BIS. Saying that "no grind "in the manifesto might have some other significance than “no grind” in the interviews and that we are fools for thinking so is pushing it a bit too far.

I don’t know. Is as if I said to my daughter she would have her favorite dessert while showing her some pudding and in the night after dinner I give her an orange. She will go all : “hey! that is not pudding!” and I will simply answer : “I never said you would have pudding!”

Yes, I know this image is a bit strange

Still, if the manifesto talks about no grind and interviews about no grind for BIS : automatically the grind they talked in the manifesto included BIS too unless they had some weird Jeckyl/hyde personality.

Now they changed their view on the game. Ok, fine. Not pleased but it’s their right.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

You are right that it would be no different. But that in my opinion does not make it a good thing. I think both DPS stacking and stun locking should be dealt with, with solid boss designs. Defiant doesn’t solve the issue of CC-skills being used for stun locking, it simply removes CC skills from the combat. It renders it useless, like you said.

No, I don’t think stun locking is a nice thing, but I also think that stun locking is so counter-productive that no one would use it as a method in dungeons. It needs practice, coordination between team players and a hell lot more time than DPSing.
I see no reason not to simply remove defiant in dungeons.

Vayne.8563:

It’s not really significant if you think you know what grind means. For the purposes of the video, Colin said most games have this annoying “grind” before you get to the fun stuff…before you get to fun stuff…not before you get new gear and raid.

No.
BIS gear was presented as easy to obtain by the time you reach 80.
There is nothing easy in obtaining ascended and more that evident that you will not get BIS when hitting 80 if you are new.

So yes… gear was supposed to be left out of the grind and BIS was supposed to be in your hands before “getting to fun stuff”.

Volkon.
You are right, and the reason they introduced ascended is exactly why you described.

STILL

Forced or not, needed or not, BIS gear has become a grind. This is against their initial intentions as described in all the material already produced in this topic.

They introduced BIS grind for those that wanted it… and in the same time just ignored all those that came to this game because they did not want to grind for BIS.

You can try to say anything about BIS not being needed, not being forced to you or whatever. But BIS now means grind. And this was not intended before launch. Never. Period.

Now, they decided to change. Fine. it’s their game and they have their reasons. But they changed. They went against the core philosophy and you can twist the words as much as you want.

Now there is grind… and there will be a gear treadmill. It’s the logical suite.
What will they do when the level cap is increased? (because they mentioned plenty of times they would)

Perfect solution would be to scale level 80 ascended gear automatically to the new level cap without needing to recraft it. If they do I will bow to them.
But I can bet you all you want that you will need somehow to grind again to get lvl90 ascended. Here… you have your treadmill.

Only future will tell, and I am really really hoping that the CDI will bear results. But I doubt it.

Defiant is a bad design choice for several reasons.
- A half bad player like me can immediately destroy the effort of a team in bringing down the defiant stacks with a misplaced CC
- Renders control skills useless

Bosses would need to have the same skills as players, down to the endurance and ability to dodge if needed.

Artificially limiting a big amount of our skills is ridiculous.

And about the stun lock :
It is possible to stun lock a boss, sure. But during that time who brings down his health? With the skill cooldowns I think at least three coordinated members in the party are needed to stun lock a boss.

And even so? Stun locking a boss would be no different than dps stacking. It’s just a method to bring it down.

This is different for open world though. With a hundred players over a boss the poor guy would not even be able to blink an eye. Stun locking in a dungeon would make the encounters waaaaaaay longer.

Elrey.5472:

BeoErgon.9107:

Actually there is an easy way to correct this if Anet wanted :
A three point buff for the dungeons.
Characters get those three by defeating the main bosses. Only those with the three buffs get the ending reward.

The problem for this is: If someone disconnects due to lag or other issue (real life aggro, running out of time), the chances of someone joining just to help are very low. That would destroy some dungeons.

Although i’m the kind of running slow dungeons and not rush runs, running all bosses and such… i see a problem if people can’t join after someone leaves.

Nothing is perfect, I know. And there is another problem with that solution: legit path sellers would need to carry the party through ALL the dungeon.

But I think my method would be the lesser of two evils. Kicking is way too easy and convenient. We should need to think twice of the consequences before kicking halfway through a dungeon.

If you accidentally loose one party member you can always call for friends to help you if you are halfway in. But it is really annoying to always be under the threat of being kicked to be replaced.

Actually there is an easy way to correct this if Anet wanted :
A three point buff for the dungeons.
Characters get those three by defeating the main bosses. Only those with the three buffs get the ending reward.

What I don’t understand is why so many people hide behind the ‘you don’t need it’ excuse.
You don’t need ANYTHING in this game. It’s a game.

Still, this does not in any way change the fact that the ideal of BIS being easy and no grindy to acquire was thrown out of the window.

Needed or not, it is the BIS and the thing that any RPG gamer aspires to have. And to have it you better wait for years or join the champion train (or any other intensive farm activity of your choice). What a nice thing!

Please Volkon, reread the extracts from the interviews.

We perfectly understood what they meant. It is you that is trying to distort the definition.
No grind for BIS means exactly that : no need to do repetitive tasks for obtaining BIS.
They thought it could work, it did not.

If they had said there would be no ducks in this game and later put some some, people would start excusing them by saying : “no, look, it’s not really a duck! And after all, they said there could be no ducks, but I am sure they meant no ducks to eat! And look! we can’t eat them!”

They said ‘no grind’. Period. This means no tedious repetitive tasks to obtain anything (unless it is cosmetic).

Now, I can understand this could not work with their model and had to review their copy, but it is useless to try to say that they meant something else. It is written everywhere. You only need to open your eyes and read.

@Kulvar.1239
You misunderstood me.

I was talking to remove immunity from bosses, not from players. I was talking about getting rid of the defiant boon that removes any interest of one of the development branches for players : control.

And about bosses being the same… it is not needed to be the exactly same attack, but all the bosses should get rid of the annoying flies glued to their shoes by kicking them away.

And about roles…
I tend to differ from you even if at first I thought the same.
To have any other roles other that DPS to be meaningful and allow players to play “how they like”, this game needs to make those roles ‘needed’.
As long as nothing else than pure dps is needed, why bother? I played support mesmer for a long time. I liked the idea… until I noticed that my heals, my boons, my resistance meant nothing and were useless in most cases. The party could as well have gone without me.
Yes, the support role exists, and the control role too. But if they are not needed they loose all interest. 5 dps players can do it all, and quicker and do not feel like wasting half of their skills.

gameplay has to change and make other roles ‘needed’ or at least ‘significant’ (like making the effect of the boons count for real).

PVE could be greatly improved with some simple points for bosses (and generaly any mob)

- Give all bosses a stomp move that he uses if everyone in a party is packed over him stunning the players
- Give all bosses a pull move that he uses if everyone in a party is too far
- Remove resistance to stuns/dazes/fear (at least in dungeons)
- Remove condition stack cap (at least in dungeons)
- give them endurance like players and the AI to dodge any AOE

Then and only then we can make meaningful roles for PVE other than pure direct DPS. Until then, PVE = packed hit and dodge and explosions over fire combo zones.

Rhyse.8179:

I think it’s because conditions are broken at the conceptual level, and they just can’t get their head around how to fix them without completely overhauling the game.

You can’t touch anything on conditions without touching all of them. Control, interrupts, DPS, debuffs, everything done to a target by every skill ever are all covered by this one, single mechanic. On top of that, the mechanic is both excessively complicated (on the hardware end) and limited (on the user’s end) due to it’s design. IMO, the entire thing should be tossed and rebuilt from the ground up. It’s really that bad of a system.

Conditions are the single worst gameplay mechanic in the entire game. Almost (but not quite) the worst I’ve ever seen in an mmo. You can’t touch it without simultaneously touching every class, every NPC, every combo field and finisher, every PVE encounter, every PVP encoutner, and almost every skill in the game. I can see why ANET just ignores the problem instead of dealing with it.

I guess this is much true. Sad… But true.
Still, I hope that when they coded conditions they did centralize the condition handling code in the game engine and not at class/mob level. Changing it would be risky, but I don’t believe it would need any rework of the principal mechanics.

They can even code alternative condition damage handling in parallel to the current method and use logs to see if it is consistent before making the switch.

Sirendor.1394:

Because condition damage… does not go away when you dodge, while direct damage does?

But condition damage can be removed and there goes all your stacks… Oh, and it can be dodged too.