Showing Posts For Biggby.6034:
Having these features in spvp would simply save a loading screen for characters in spvp and would make no difference from a pve players standpoint. WvWvW already contains all of these features in the borderlands and you can get back to where you started. You don’t need to go to vigil keep. There is a trading post, a merchant, and bank access through the borderlands (via guild bank or crafting stations in your home borderland). You can then return to where you were in pve through the WvWvW screen.
As someone who jumps between all game modes:
I think the reward tracks are nice, though I admit I have only progressed in one dungeon track so far. I think redoing story mode or waiting until a dungeon is available isn’t hugely problematic.
It seems like adding additional tears to the balthazar track with gear previously not obtainable outside of pvp might make sense.
I also think the reward disparity and cap in hotjoin as opposed to ranked is creating some problems by pushing players into ranked when they may not want to be there.
If players are learning, pushing them into a more serious environment may not be fun for them or others who are trying to win, so they will leave. Further players who only care about rewards will play where rewards are better which is not hotjoin. These players may not contribute to a positive experience for their teammates as winning and having fun may be less important (since a loss in team is just as good as a hotjoin win and they can do something else while sitting in a team match for points).
I can see three reasons for arenanet to implement this reward variance: An attempt to fight bots, an attempt to push people into team arena, which areneanet values higher, and an attempt to reward higher skill and time sinks associated with ranked queues. In regards to botters, capping hotjoin just pushes them to solo que. Regarding pushing people into game types, I think arenanet pvp should have learned by now that giving players a positive experience should be prioritized if you want people to continue to pvp, not pushing them to play the game mode you want. Regarding better rewards for the commitment and skill in solo and team, I believe most serious players in these modes value the prestige, higher skill and consistent competition, and tournament rewards, more than a boost in largely pvp rewards so while slightly higher rewards are reasonable, drastic differences and hotjoin caps seem detrimental to creating good competition.
I think that the reward tracks may not really directly help players more committed to spvp. But if it brings players and revenue to spvp that seems like it should be good in the long run. It also seems like leagues and tournaments may appeal more to these players so hopefully there will be follow up in this area (a bit faster than soon).
The gear unification/locker isn’t as nice for pure spvp players but maybe if arenanet feel some money is flowing from spvp (from transmutation charges) they will invest more resources into spvp(not saying it’s likely). I also agree that having to swap weapons everytime I change game types is a bit of a pain.
It seems like some people are really enjoying the new map and I look forward to trying it, though I hope an actual game mode may eventually be introduced around it. I was a little sad to see raid on capricorn outright deleted and think maps with more unique mechanics like, capricorn, spiritwatch, and skyhammer can all have a place in a messing arround area (like hotjoin).
overall, largely positive changes to spvp.
As someone who jumps between all game modes:
I think the reward tracks are nice.
More players and faster queues are nice.
The gear unification/locker isn’t as nice for spvp but maybe if arenanet feel some money is flowing from spvp (from transmutation charges) they will invest more resources into spvp(not saying it’s likely).
It is at least interesting to see and experiment with new builds. Balanced or not at least they’re different.
I think the reward disparity and cap from hotjoin to ranked is creating some problems by pushing players into ranked when they may not want to be there.
I agree that the reward tracks may not really directly help players more committed to spvp. But if it brings players and revenue to spvp that seems like it should be good in the long run. It also seems like leagues and tournaments may appeal more to these players so hopefully there will be follow up in this area (a bit faster than soon).
overall, mostly positive.
Let me start by saying I appreciate the continual updates to the game. For example I am enjoying the influx of players generated by the sPVP reward tracks. That said I wanted to add my voice to those who find some of the new trait changes discouraging.
1. Traits should be unlockable at appropriate levels. I find it strange that some lower tier traits require you to complete much higher level content. When leveling and unlocking traits on a class I feel like I would then take a look at the traits in that range, figure out which one sounded coolest, and try to go unlock it. I would then repeat this trying to acquire and test different traits. However, with many traits requiring completing content that is much higher level, I think I would be frustrated by the lack of options available to me.
2. SP cost seems punishing to new players. While I think it is good to encourage players to try different things and this system could be used to direct people to content they wouldn’t otherwise try, there is some content I and others simply don’t enjoy and don’t want to be forced to do to access traits. I think the option to buy books is a nice alternative way of acquiring these traits but I think the skill point cost seems extremely punishing to new players who don’t have as many sp saved up as more veteran players.
3. Waiting for events. There are problems with tying points to content that isn’t always available. In an early interview someone at arenanet made a comment about not wanting people to stand around waiting to have fun. If an event or specific mob is required to unlock something it can be problematic for people as they may need to wait for it to spawn. They can do other stuff in the same area while waiting but would then need to be informed when the event/mob triggers. Additionally it can create a problem of players fighting over events and mobs or becoming angry at others who killed or completed it before they could get credit. This may not be a serious problem if not many people are attempting to unlock skills but it seems like something that could be problematic. Alternately if not many people are trying to accomplish these events or kills then it may be difficult to complete group events or kill champions.
4. The last thing that seems unfortunate is waiting so long for traits and having traits appear every 6 levels and then suddenly twice as fast. This seems both unintuitive and slow in terms of playing with your character. I’m not sure what the best way to handle this would be. One possibility would be to decrease the level cap and alternate what is received in different levels. With 14 traits and giving skill points on alternate levels you could have 28 lvls of alternating rewards. By starting to receive traits at 23 players could level to 50 with this alternating system. If stat points were decoupled from trait lines (since I don’t really get why they are coupled) this would further be increased to 42 levels with alternating rewards. This could however be a balance problem, so I’m not sure if this would be ideal. This kind of rebalancing could be too complex but even decreasing the heavy increase at the end and spreading things more evenly seems like it would be an improvement. There are probably other possible solutions, but something should be done to allow players to start playing with traits earlier and not have so many “empty” feeling levels, and such an odd distribution of trait point allocation.
I think people who are commenting about how easy leveling is in an attempt to trivialize what some see as problems aren’t considering the fact that others have different experiences than them.
I had considered rerolling one of my low level characters to test out the system but I can’t see myself ever wanting to make a new character given the current state of the trait system.
I have no illusions that this is likely to happen. I don’t think Arenanet has the will to make it happen as I don’t think they have that much faith in spvp. I just see it as the best move they could make to have a serious competitive scene.
I don’t think gem conversion is the problem. I don’t see any reason why they couldn’t implement the rewards in pvp in a way that wouldn’t cause the gold to gems conversion to remain where they want it since they have complete control of this exchange, rewards, and any free 2 play implementation. I also seriously doubt they will increase the pvp rewards so that they compete with champion trains in pve and or fail to introduce pvp gold sincs. I think balancing the game for pvp and messing up pve balance (more) is a bigger issue but that already exists. I actually think most pve players would prefer the game had a healthy pvp population since it increases company resources and strength.
As it stands I see them making pvp into a diversion for when you’re bored with pve. The improved link with pve makes it less of a loss to come play a few matches. This is fine if that is all they want it to be but I don’t see any moves they’re making as likely to generate a large increase in pvp player base or turn it into a serious competitive game.
The reason to switch to free 2 play pvp is to bring in new players who will spend on gems and support the pvp since I don’t think anyone is currently buying the game for pvp and I don’t think the current pvp player base is big enough to support pvp development.
That said if the general opinion is the pvp isn’t good enough to be a standalone game then its not worth going free 2 play. Or if having it for a diversion from pve is all that is desired, then its not worth going free 2 play.
Like I said, I am casual, and it could be there are better alternatives to bringing in new players and making pvp competitive. I just don’t think pve rewards will do it and I thought I would make an argument for the only way I could see it happening if they want it to. I agree that the people with control might not believe in spvp enough to make it happen.
why would they spend time making a f2p version that wont interact with the paid version for very little income gain?
Look at it this way: Imagine LoL having a b2p PvE side which also unlocks some skins for the regular Moba if you buy it. Riot would make more or the same amount of money, not changing the game but expanding it. Now GW2 already has PvE so they can just add an account version that does not include PvE and makes some of PvP pay to get, like skins. This would get them more players overall into their PvP, making the already existing players more motivated, bringing in potential customers that downloaded the game for PvP, liked the combat, read the lore and want to engage in the living story. There’s nothing bad about the idea aside from the time and resources invested.
LOL only works because you can sell champions, which is the essence of the game. So you can’t use LOL as a reference. What could they sell to f2p players? that is worth it. In any case you still havent given an incentive why they should do it
I mentioned how games like LOL involve unlocking characters in the original post and made suggestions for monetization that could get free players to spend at least as much as the current box price to have the basics of pvp, or the entire game unlocked. After that arenanet would be reliant on skins, custom arenas, finishers, and pvp players spending money in pve, as they currently are.
I agree that they probably need to be expanded upon that and would love to hear your suggestions, however if all there talk about esports is to be taken seriously I would hope they have ideas/statistics about what would be necessary in terms of funding. My point was more that this is the only way I see for them to reasonably increase the number of people playing, and having that increased player base would be necessary for esports.
Best case
- hotjoins are a mess and should be just custom arena
- an unranked arena. based on team arena so you can join with any size group.
- solo ranked
- team ranked
reasoning
As someone who casually pvps I don’t really like hotjoins but don’t feel like ranked solo arena is a very good place for experimenting. As a result I would like an unranked arena. That said I think it should be based off of team arena not solo so that people can also play with their friends and so that it supports learning team play, unranked. The matchmaking could accounted for if a team is solo players or not.
I don’t think removing ranked solo arena is a good idea. While it wouldn’t really affect me if an unranked alternative were available there are players who like it as a competitive place to play. While it might not really meet arenanet’s original design goals sometimes it is better to meet the player bases desires and have a happy player base. I think it is perfectly acceptable to have multiple end games, team arena with esport support for some players and solo for other. A unranked arena could serve as a feeder for both of these.
I am sure free2play has been brought up before but I thought I would throw out my current thoughts on it for spvp (only). I think it would be one of the best ways to bring in more people and population in spvp seems to be a large problem.
I am guessing no one is buying this game for spvp anymore. If there is someone in the forums who has bought it for spvp in the last 6 months please contradict me. I imagine Arenanet have statistics on how many players who purchased the game in the last 6 months and play spvp primarily, and how many immediately started playing spvp.
pros
- larger player base, which improves the game for paying players and more people to buy gems
- could influence people towards buying the full game when getting things that would help them in pve.
- compete against other pvp games which are predominantly free2play
To me spvp being free is the only thing that will increase the player base as it will get lots of people looking at it. Looking to the PVE players for an increase in player base is looking in the wrong place. Entirely new players who like pvp games is where we should be looking and at the moment this means getting people past the entry barrier by competing against LOL and DOTA which are free.
cons
- Need for development. This would require a redesigned client that allows users to start in spvp while adding pve and wvw as unlocks in gem store. Additionally coding to create a rule set for free players vs players who have spent money or unlocked other parts of the game. Clearly arenanet is already short on resources for development so this may be too much of an impediment. But after the China release?
- Potential need for increased moderation or blocking free player’s speech
- Possible impact on the economy or could always simply block mail/trading post
- Maybe the game just isn’t good enough and this turns away potential players and waists the investment into switching free to play.
To me need for development and the possible negative impact on new people being turned away from the pve because they don’t enjoy the pvp are the biggest negatives.
Monetization
I think it would be fine to just give away the entire spvp and hope people buy pve and wvw but looking at other free2play games it is often necessary to unlock characters so I thought I would offer an alternative here.
- Free classes – warrior as good starter, thief to avoid complaints, mesmer to avoid complaints. They are also different enough classes, and 1 of each armor type.
- free races – sylvari, Char, human
- 800 Gems per class unlock, or 2400 for all classes.
- 600 Gems per race unlock or both races for 800
Buying individually is more expensive but you don’t have to go all in. If you go with the packs you get all sPvP for the same price as the game. Not sure how much unlocking just pve and wvw but not classes should cost.
Roadmap to free spvp
Would take some time to develop this which probably puts it after China.
On balance, they need to get out the next feature release first. Then. every few weeks release some minor balance changes up until its ready so that hopefully it is in a better state by free2play release.
Or you know they could just do massive changes every few weeks, it won’t be balanced but at least it will continually be different, which seems better than not balanced and stale.
About me
I play a mix of all game types, casually so I may not be the best authority on this. While I see improved cross between pvp and pve as a positive step for bringing more casual players into pvp for me to fight. For esports I think you need pvp primary players, and this requires competing against other, free2play, esports games.
Thoughts?
What type of structure would you find interesting for leagues and ladders?
I like the idea of solo and Team games.
I like the idea of tiers one can move between.
I like the idea of being able to choose when my play will go towards the ladder (separate ladder and non-ladder games).
I also like the idea that i could participate in a ranked game a day or even every other day and still have it count towards my progress. I think requiring a large time commitments, like a tournament all in one day is a mistake (unless it is a finals in the top tier or something like that).
Earlier someone mentioned an interesting idea that players could have separate ranking for each class. Not sure if it is a good idea but if each class was ranked and rewarded separately then players could participate on multiple classes allowing those with greater time and skill to potentially be rewarded multiple times for there commitment and trying new classes. It does have the draw back that a few skilled players could end up dominating everything and could confuse some players.
How long should a season last?
2 to 3 months.
What would motivate you to play in one?
The ability to participate in small time blocks. I enjoy many aspects of the game and also have other commitments so needing to have large available time blocks or participate every day would not work for me. I would participate casually if possible, otherwise I would just continue occasional games like I do now.
What types of rewards would you like to see?
Armor skins and rewards that work across game types (like gold and ways outside of crafting and rng to get ascended stuff, I don’t personally care if skins are unique). Its difficult to really say without a better idea how reward structure is to be changed.
Exclusive titles based on overall performance, public name display for the top performers. I also would like to see the top performers get a limited time visual reward that at the end of the next season should be transferred to the new top players/ teams, kind of like a trophy that transfers between champions.
How would a player earn these rewards?
Rewards should be balanced to reward both playing and skill.
Commitment rewards:
Players should receive a reward based on playing. There could be a reward for playing and a separate reward for placement. Alternately one could achieve rewards faster if playing at a higher difficulty level. I’m not sure which of these would be better.
In rewarding skill I like the idea of allowing players to move between tiers and then rewarding based on what tier you end in better than rewarding based on placement within a tier as the second seems to incentivize trying to start in a lower tier. There could also be special rewards for the top players/ teams in the top tier.
How would you encourage players of all skill levels to participate?
Allow players of varying skill levels and time commitments to play and feel rewarded for there play as outlined above.
I also liked the idea someone mentioned where if someone drops from a game players who queue after that will be given the option to, without rank penalty and for some reward, be asked if they would like to join the ongoing match.
First, thank you for taking the time to map out your intentions and I’m sure you have more planned.
The short version first with the explanations below
While I appreciate that gold may not be the only sPVP reward, gold as the primary sPVP reward mechanism seems very difficult to properly balance. Properly rewarding skill and commitment across very different game types, maintaining prestige when allowing things to be transferred between different methods of achieving them, and keeping a balanced, skill based sPVP system with skill unlocks all have potential to be problematic.
commitment vs skill
While not mutually exclusive, some players want to demonstrate their skill and other players know they will never be the best but would still like to receive rewards as they play. Currently some people feel most in game sPVP rewards are a way to reward commitment more than skill. Winning tournaments hosted external to in game mechanics(ESL, PAX, etc), and leader-boards are how skill is rewarded . Some players would like in game skill to be rewarded more, and its possible that ladders could be one way to do this, though properly rewarding higher ladder players vs lower ladder players sounds contentious. Further removing all rank rewards may make some players feel that they are no longer being rewarded for long term commitment to the game since they lack the skill or regular play time required to effectively play in a ladder season. Gold may provide some reward for commitment but doesn’t provide any means for these players to differentiate themselves from a PVE player. Are titles going to be the only distinguisher?
Prestige vs accessibility
There is currently prestige associated with equipment. Allowing unlocking of all skins with gold will diminish the prestige. Players like to demonstrate accomplishments in a particular area of the game which requires the means of demonstrating that mastery be exclusive. Other players want to be able to get any skin regardless of the game mode they feel inclined to play. This is not compatible with demonstrating mastery of a certain area. It is already impossible to attain certain things without playing or having played certain content. This needs to remain true for rewards relating to hard content in both modes or else these players will not feel rewarded for their accomplishment.
Gold as the primary pvp currency/reward
There must be something of value to spend gold on in sPVP as well as WvW and PVE otherwise it will not be useful to players who exclusively sPVP. However, people who have sPVPed currently have far less gold than those who have PVEd. If gold becomes the main tool for getting rewards in PVP, existing PVP players will be disadvantaged unless a reasonable conversion rate appears for glory. Another issue is experience, karma, gear, and a number of other currencies are also received while playing PVE. If there is no PVP exclusive currency or rewards, that could perhaps be combined with gold when purchasing things, then PVP rewards will likely remain behind PVE rewards. If PVP players are further required to spend the gold they are getting on Experience to unlock skills, when experience comes through most actions in PVE they will further be disadvantaged. Instead of having a system where you can gain rewards and use them in both game types it could be only possible to move effectively from PVE into PVP. With only gold gain being possible and the requirement to use this gold to access skills which will come through natural XP gain in PVE, it would appear you would need to gain gold much more quickly in sPVP. Additionally passive XP gain feels more natural to me than converting gold or glory.
Skills and new players.
One draw of the game is sPVP players to be on a balanced playing field in terms of stats and gear. Requiring XP to unlock skills seems counter to this.
Rewards influence player behaviour in games. It is great that you get XP for rezing and that resource nodes are not exclusive. Making rewards in sPVP based around the challenge your opponents presented rather than speed of completing things while maintaining the ability to reward less skilled players seems like it will be difficult. Further maintaining a sense of prestige and accomplishment relating to skins acquired in different game types will be difficult. Finally balancing the rate of reward gain when the currency is shared between game types also adds complexity. Maintaining some division between these game types might make it easier to balance between them.
While I do enjoy the rewards, and appreciate the idea of having some transfer of rewards between game types my primary concern is that a positive playing environment is maintained in the game. No matter what I’m sure you will offend someone but I appreciate the effort you are making to try to improve the game and allow players to feel rewarded while playing multiple game types.
My suggested fix (admitting I haven’t read through everything and just thought of it and Arenanet probably has better)
For bleeds don’t track stacks on the server side. Track time slots and add to each slot. Each ping only happens once a second. You need a maximum time slot allocation for the maximum reachable bleed duration in seconds. Longest possible bleed is 14.3 sec you need 14 time slots. As a bleed is applied, for each time’s slot that falls within its duration starting at the current slot, add the damage for that bleed. Iterate through the time slots. You end up with one damage number for each second.
On client side if you want to display to someone their damage or stacks you can without worrying about bandwidth. Alternately you can display total damage or everyone’s damage. Since stacks are cleared all at once you send a clear message and it removes all ongoing stacks. If a bleed is applied I’m sure this is already returned. As a result you don’t need to return information on multiple bleed stacks.
This seems to me to be a simple solution. This removes the need for a cap and as a result a solution for at cap. It does require going through the time slots (up to the length of the bleed being applied each time a bleed is applied) which could require too much processing but that’s your call.
As for balance.
- Epidemic will need to be reworked (its one skill).
- If it isn’t balanced for multiple players to be applying bleeds, why is it balanced for an individual player. Its not like vulnerability which gets stronger with more people.
- Condition damage ignores toughness, but it takes time to apply, and can be removed. This was what I thought was the balance.
- To people who will argue it will be too strong when multiple people attack, if those same multiple people were hitting with direct damage you would be dead too.
- In the end Arenanet has more info on damage per second than I do and can easily determine if above certain damage thresholds incoming damage needs to be multiplied by a decimal, but I don’t see why it would.
Why this is important:
People who focus conditions can run together.
And in conclusion. This is simple. I’m sure you’ve thought of it and know the problems with it. I just wrote it to add encouragement that this be fixed soon. Best of luck finding the optimal solution.