Guild Wars 2

Wow, a lot happens in a few hours of sleep and work. A lot of people responded with similar comments, but I’m going to quote this one in full to hit points off ASAP.

frans.8092:

Ceno.1763:

There are, however, four problems with this change, all of which I’ll go into in detail as best I can. They are as follows:

• A massive hit to Economic Action (or Economic Movement, if you prefer that term)

Blah-blah; a statement that can neither be proven nor disproved. Farm elsewhere and get loot just the same.

• A not-inconsiderable hit to getting new players/alts to higher levels quickly and easily (no one wants to stay in the starter zones for an eternity, and the trains were a fine way of getting you up to level 30 fast)

There are tomes to get characters to level 20. I have them in surplus….

• A detrimental effect on the game’s presentation to new players (difficulty, opportunity, necessity of teamwork, etc.)

Nonsense, there was no train when I explored Queensdale with my main, when she was level 10 and the absence of the train was definitely not detrimental. I think it is, or was, the other way around.

• A clear and fundamental shift from what Guild Wars 2 prided itself on offering apart from other MMORPGs: a cross-world experience for all players, young and old, that would be made available and enjoyable to players regardless of their in-game level.

Removing end-game content from a starter zone is hardly a ‘fundamental shift’.

Champ trains do not belong in starter zones, where people are trying to get familiar with their characters, the game mechanics, where they experience the stories and the lore.

1.) I didn’t make this clear in the OP but I did address the issue in the comments; the primary economic impact will come from the fact that new players (1-20ish) cannot as easily put their hands in the market since they do not have access to the train to sell their greens. For you and me, we experienced folk, no, it won’t have a significant effect on us, but it will change the way new players are “allowed” to play the game.

2.) Tomes are account-bound, I believe, so
Eh, the point I was going to make here was stupid and probably wrong anyways, so not going to bother with it.

3. and 4.) My response here addresses the misconception that most people have about these problems. I am NOT arguing in support of the existence of trains in starting zones (in these arguments). I am, however, arguing that champions in starter zones contributed TREMENDOUSLY to the quality and presentation of the game. Trains = end-game content? Sure, fine, different conversation for a different time. But champions should not be end-game content. They should be a challenge readily available to all players, new and veterans alike.

More specifically, to address the 4th point; the “fundamental shift” was in removing the potential for desire of bringing old, end-game players into starter zones. This was an initial intent of Guild Wars 2. Granted, we still have Shadow Behemoth and Fire Elemental every couple of hours, but that’s far beside the point.

Sarrs.4831:

A level 1-15 character forms a relatively small portion of the market, and can’t affect the price of much of anything that is directly relevant to a ‘seasoned’ player. In those levels, they’ll only be generating T1 crafting mats from anything they do. These mats are already very much bottomed out, and they’re not directly relevant to any endgame economic endeavor apart from leveling professions.

I’ll grant you that, but only because I forgot how salvaging works on low-level equipment. :P Though truth be told, my professions really need to be leveled and this will probably hurt my wallet as a result.

I have to disagree with your other points, however. From my experience and from talking about and introducing the game to several of my friends, there are bountiful amounts of new players who want to get their hands in the economy quickly.

MotherKitten.6795:

I don’t find GW2 dungeons fun and rarely do them. The champ train gave me a way to make money for gear without having to do something I don’t enjoy and so I find this a negative change.

100% agreed. I don’t run dungeons, I don’t do Fractals, I don’t do WvW or SPvP. I farm coin and karma, and that’s it. That’s the way I as a consumer want to play the game, and its kind of insulting that I’m continually shown that this playstyle is being phased out.

Sarrs.4831:

On the economic impact; there are several champ trains. QD is only one of them. I don’t believe it’s even the must lucrative of them; I’m fairly certain that Frostgorge beats it out. People can still champ train if they want to; they’ll just have to go to a different zone.

On “you can’t do this for xp anymore when levelling alts” yeah that’s true, you won’t get the exact same XP/hr. However, as I understand, the meat of the XP you got was from the events, not from the bosses themselves (except obviously spider). You can still run around, do these events, and get a healthy amount of XP from it- And you’re less dependent on having a zerg with you when you do it, because of the mob downgrade.

First of all, I appreciate the friendly input. Cheers!

I must say what I already pointed out, however. Regarding your first (quoted) objection, the Frostgorge Train is not a train readily accessible to new players. The economy will take a hit because new players will not be taking part in it. In effect, Anet actually hurt new players in a lot of practical ways with this patch while trying to help them out in social-ways.

Your second point is correct, of course. The events themselves will garner more %-XP than merely killing a champion/veteran. But while you’re running around getting XP, your gear will not as easily progress with you, as there likely won’t be any gear (that’s decent) dropped.

squallaus.8321:

If they wanted to stop then trains then get rid of the loot for the champs, not the champs themselves. Some of us actually like to fight the champs on our spare time.

Agreed wholeheartedly.

Jrunyon.3012:

• A massive hit to Economic Action (or Economic Movement, if you prefer that term)

Doubt it. The hardcore will just move on to the next farm and we’ll be in the exact same position.

Agreed. As mentioned, I’m working to restart familiar trains (Kol and the like; anyone remember the days of Kol before his train got nerfed?) or searching for new trains to partake in. The point is, the starting zone trains were trains that new players could take part in, which let them have a go in the market early on. This is no longer the case. Supply will decrease ever so slightly, but demand could potentially rise to a larger extent.

Jrunyon.3012:

*A clear and fundamental shift from what Guild Wars 2 prided itself on offering apart from other MMORPGs: a cross-world experience for all players, young and old, that would be made available and enjoyable to players regardless of their in-game level.

This hasn’t changed. The mobs are still there, you still get an item from them.

You’re dodging my explanation here. The problem here is not that the same mobs remain where they were, the point is that higher-level players now have (virtually) no reason to return to lower-leveled zones while being scaled down. Anet was, during prerelease, quite happy with the fact that they were creating an environment in which there was significant reason to return to zones you’d already visited/completed.

GummiArms.5368:

Also does not solve the problem of it being a good karma farm, but I suppose it is somewhat less relevant.

I wanted to bring this up, but found nowhere to fit it into the OP. Karma was, initially, a currency that could and should have been farmed by doing things together and helping each other out. That was the whole concept of it. Today, however, working together isn’t really a profitable option anymore.

Dusty Moon.4382:

The QD was a mindless zerg – not doing anything useful and annoying the players actually trying to level. I am happy that it was done – too many level 80’s just doing it BECAUSE!!!

That’s the Cursed Shore train you’re referring to. At least on my server. My experiences with the QD train have been pleasant all-around.

I meant the above to suffice for my OP, but this just came to mind and I’d like to ask a direct question or two of my own. Quoted directly from the Game Updates patch notes:

“This change is being made to ensure new players focus on learning the core game experience.”

Forgive me for sounding a bit rash, but what exactly is meant by “core game experience”? And why isn’t this “core game experience” presented to new players during their introductory in-game race-specific quest (the thing that introduces you to the game and takes you from level 1 to 2)?

The first problem is easily explained: the trains presented a semi-steady influx of crafting materials (from excessive loot/salvaging). Now it’s not the end of the world here, the Starter Zone trains were not the end-all be-all of crafting material influx. CaptnRio’s post, linked and referred to above, argues that the sole economic “farm” from the QD train came in the form of raw coinage (1s75c/champ), but experienced players that run champ-trains know that this is far from the reason to run such trains.

The second problem is obvious enough. New players and alts are going to have a harder time scratching the surface of the greatness that Guild Wars 2 has to offer. I can’t speak for everyone of course, but in my opinion, the slog from level 2 to level 33-35 is obscenely boring, takes forever, and not at all indicative of the rest of the game. The champion trains, while boring for some, at least gave you a solid economic footing to get you rolling ahead in the game.

The third problem is purely an opinionated problem, one which there’s no clear resolution for because everyone is bound to have a different take on it. When I first entered Guild Wars 2 (after Open-Beta but during the Three-Day Headstart made available to pre-purchasers), I made a human guardian (my “main” to this day), waltzed into Queensdale, and got my head blown off by a particularly powerful bandit in a Renown Heart zone. I was undeterred, and soon thereafter—and to this day—I was solo’ing Champions across the world on my own. This is what Guild Wars 2 offered to its community: a challenge, but not an impossible one. Sure, removing the champions from the starting zones will remove the trains, but it also takes away from the “Living World” experience that Guild Wars 2 was able to offer so strongly. New players will no longer get such challenges early on, if ever, with this change. It’s sad, in some ways poetic, and in my opinion, the wrong move.

The fourth and final problem isn’t clearly evident nor is it memorable to anyone who didn’t jump on the Guild Wars 2 bandwagon right off and played the game immediately. The developers have made several comments supporting the notion that they want older, veteran players to be able to commit to and have justification for a return zones that are scaled for lower-level players. This is where and why the whole %-based XP reward, level-scale-down/up, and widespread community interaction first took off.

Some of you may be confused why I’m just dropping off these problems without going into great effort for/against them. These problems are open-ended and will evolve as the community does. I await your responses that I might to respond to them in applicable manners.

This is the first post I’m making on these forums in over a year, and I implore anyone significantly involved/affected (positively or negatively) by the Champion change to consider this post with some weight at least. This has been a dodgy move, in my opinion. It addresses one problem (jerks running champions in starter zones) lazily by removing the front for jerks to run trains in starter zones, but does nothing to affect the detrimental involvement said-jerks would have in the larger Guild Wars 2 community. In my opinion, this was a change which could have been handled very differently without beating around the bush and taking out a core game element that a couple idiots took for granted/abused.

So, at the end of the day, what will come of this, according to yours truly? I think some prices might rise long-term in the trading post (might be a good thing, frankly). I think the trains will move elsewhere, but the jerks will continue to be jerks. I think I’ll speak to my guildmates about trying to run CS/SoD/Kol trains again. Mostly, though, I think new players will miss out on fun gameplay that Guild Wars 2 once offered because of a patch whose intent was to make the game more presentable to new players.

Dodgy move, as I said.

Alright, first things first, this isn’t a whining tears post; rather, the intent here is to present arguments for and against the champion change following the May 20th 2014 Patch. That being said, if you’re incapable of reading a long post in its entirety, please do not make an uneducated reply. This post is intended to stir up intelligent conversations, not to begin a heated and pointless debate about exerting your internet dominance.

So in case you haven’t seen it yet, Champions in Starter Zones are now virtually nonexistent. Two other (large) posts have already been made, here and here. The general consensus has thus far been in support of this change, as one would hope that the negative attitudes expressed within the “Queensdale Train” cease to exist thanks to this patch.

As an aside, not once have I ever encountered any negativity within the train for new users that take out a champion before the train reaches it. There are two probable causes for this, the primary one being that new users aren’t particularly likely to take down a champion. The secondary probable cause is that the trains that we on Stormbluff Isle run are actually intelligent, and are perfectly used to skipping Oak/Troll if someone decides to take it down on their own.

There are, however, four problems with this change, all of which I’ll go into in detail as best I can. They are as follows:

• A massive hit to Economic Action (or Economic Movement, if you prefer that term)
• A not-inconsiderable hit to getting new players/alts to higher levels quickly and easily (no one wants to stay in the starter zones for an eternity, and the trains were a fine way of getting you up to level 30 fast)
• A detrimental effect on the game’s presentation to new players (difficulty, opportunity, necessity of teamwork, etc.)
• A clear and fundamental shift from what Guild Wars 2 prided itself on offering apart from other MMORPGs: a cross-world experience for all players, young and old, that would be made available and enjoyable to players regardless of their in-game level.

I know that quest well-ask a friend for help, pretty much the only way to get it done until Caladbolg gets balanced.

Because getting 100g is hard. /sarcasm

Play the game. >_>

I don’t understand the people that think Necro’s are underpowered. They’re overpowered, imo.

Mesmers are a different story-great in PvP, lacking in PvE. So it really depends on what you’re interested in.

I keep playing the thief because it’s the ultimate troll class.