Showing Posts For Chun.5827:
Thank you, that exactly what I am trying to point out. The GW2 PvE Meta is “the broken and cheesy weapons which Fromsoftware keeps nerfing to keep the game balanced. Which get used by a majority of the playerbase to speedrun or finish the game as easy and fast as possible”. TL;DR Cheesing the game, to get the shinies. Instead of players looking up to challenge runners and wanting to get better (like in dark souls), players look up to the people with the best cheese.
The irony is as long as you understand the mechanics, you don’t need anywhere near meta DPS to win in this game. Having a fun challenge isn’t the goal of “meta” players, its about putting everything on farm. And that’s just sad.
Celestial (the title of this topic), has sufficient DPS and defense. In fact, the stat combination is so self-sufficient that you can hold your own not only in PvE but also in WvW and in the past PvP. It is a stat combination that works everywhere. How many stat combinations are effective in all game modes? You have “just” enough of everything to get the job done, no matter what the job is. I personally like mixing a few pieces of celestial in with zerk/vipers. Small decrease to my attack, for significant increase to defense.
That has to be one of the stupidest things I have read in a while.
So being efficient and optimising your build and gear is cheesing the game. You still haven’t understood that the comparison you make is not working. When I was talkiing about overpowered weapons in Dark Souls I was giving an example similar to what people do with builds and gear in MMOs. They optimise to get the best possible output.
You are effectively saying that being mediocre is the best approach while arguing that specialising and being the best possible at your role is bad. I’m not even sure how to counter argue that it’s so unbelievably stupid.
Celestial is jack-of-all and master of none pve wise, worse even it’s worse than jack-of-all since a mix of different attribute equipments would produce a better omni-role-set while removing all the useless stats celestial has…
Nope you completely misunderstood what I meant. I never said specializing is bad. But on the other hand, being self-sufficient and flexible isn’t bad either. What is “mediocre”? That’s the problem with people on the internet, they are incapable of speaking precisely. My definition: Anything that can get the job done reliably and in “decent” time is good. Celestial does this, and unlike specializing is capable of fulfilling many roles in many situations.
TL;DR specializing is good in its own way. But so is being self-sufficient and flexible. That is not the same was “mediocre” or “useless”
Its interesting how people on GW2 define what is “useless” and what is “good”. In Dark Souls, the best players are those that have low dps (fist only), rely on nothing except understanding game mechanics, and do not rely on stats (naked). High dps means you don’t not need to know how to reliably counter every boss mechanic 100% of the time, those players specialize in cheesing and bursting down encounters. Low dps, means the boss fight drags out for long enough that you will be forced to experience every attack multiple times and your forced to actually learn them.
Absolute apples to oranges comparison.
First off, you are comparing gear choice in a Dark Souls game which speficially is chosen around making the game harder to show player skill. The aim here is to show how proficient the player is by using minimal advantage versus maximum risk. This is the absolute oposite of what meta actual means (“Most-Efficient-Tactical-Advantage”).
What you should be comparing meta to is the broken and cheesy weapons which Fromsoftware keeps nerfing to keep the game balanced. Which get used by a majority of the playerbase to speedrun or finish the game as easy and fast as possible.
No one is going to deny you the glory of calling you superp if you do a very tough or hard GW2 boss fight solo or with harsh selfimposed penalties. That’s not the aim of meta builds and builds in general though in this game (unless as mentioned selfimposed).
When designing a build for GW2 you try to optimise to gain the maximum benefit you can in order to overcome challanges with as minimum effort as possible, usually in order to gain as much loot as possible (something not done in Dark Souls).
This has less to do with playerskill and more with loot gain optimisation. Two completely different ideas endgame wise.
Celestial has more than enough DPS, to reliably beat all PvE content. The stat combination is extremely useful in all 3 game modes: PvP (before it was removed), WvW, and PvE. The stat combination, allows your character to be self-sufficient against all situations. Excellent stat for dueling, for roaming, for PvE, and in the past excellent stat for PvP. Meta builds on the other hand are one trick ponies, that optimize one main trait of the build. One small nerf, to their one trick and they fall from the meta.
We are talking pve here, no one denies that different stat combinations are useful for wvw or spvp due to the very nature of opponents you meet (human ones who can adapt and react differently).
Yes, meta builds are one-trick ponies being the best at what they do. In this case beat pve obsticles with the least amount of effort or the fastest amount of time. They literally provide you with a build for being the best at 1 thing (sometimes 2). Since most of the pve game though only has this 1 obstacle to overcome (beating the ai and boss patterns without dying) it’s the most efficient at doing so.
Deviation from this for easier use and play can be done by taking more defensive stats. They are simply NOT NEEDED if your player skill is high enough to not die. Yes, some boss fights actually get easier this way (Goreseval for example if you can skip his updraft phases with enough dps). It still means though you have to bring the minimum amount of player skill to abuse the dps advantage, which already is an obstacle for many players.
Thank you, that exactly what I am trying to point out. The GW2 PvE Meta is “the broken and cheesy weapons which Fromsoftware keeps nerfing to keep the game balanced. Which get used by a majority of the playerbase to speedrun or finish the game as easy and fast as possible”. TL;DR Cheesing the game, to get the shinies. Instead of players looking up to challenge runners and wanting to get better (like in dark souls), players look up to the people with the best cheese.
The irony is as long as you understand the mechanics, you don’t need anywhere near meta DPS to win in this game. Having a fun challenge isn’t the goal of “meta” players, its about putting everything on farm. And that’s just sad.
Celestial (the title of this topic), has sufficient DPS and defense. In fact, the stat combination is so self-sufficient that you can hold your own not only in PvE but also in WvW and in the past PvP. It is a stat combination that works everywhere. How many stat combinations are effective in all game modes? You have “just” enough of everything to get the job done, no matter what the job is. I personally like mixing a few pieces of celestial in with zerk/vipers. Small decrease to my attack, for significant increase to defense.
(edited by Chun.5827)
Its interesting how people on GW2 define what is “useless” and what is “good”. In Dark Souls, the best players are those that have low dps (fist only), rely on nothing except understanding game mechanics, and do not rely on stats (naked). High dps means you don’t not need to know how to reliably counter every boss mechanic 100% of the time, those players specialize in cheesing and bursting down encounters. Low dps, means the boss fight drags out for long enough that you will be forced to experience every attack multiple times and your forced to actually learn them.
Celestial has more than enough DPS, to reliably beat all PvE content. The stat combination is extremely useful in all 3 game modes: PvP (before it was removed), WvW, and PvE. The stat combination, allows your character to be self-sufficient against all situations. Excellent stat for dueling, for roaming, for PvE, and in the past excellent stat for PvP. Meta builds on the other hand are one trick ponies, that optimize one main trait of the build. One small nerf, to their one trick and they fall from the meta.
Thats not how meta builds work, and only someone who doesnt know why those builds are meta, would make thius statement. It’s an argument from ignorance.
Condi PS for instance. Why is it meta?
Well its not just ‘one small trick’ that makes it meta, it’s a list of reasons.
DPS
DPS uptime
Range
Cleave
Might uptime
Fury uptime
Utility flexabilityYou would have to nerf all of these to push power PS back into equal standing. And do you seriously think anet is going to gut warrior because one build is META? Are you daft?
Also you can claim celestial can clear all the content. I say put your money where your mouth is. Post benchmarks. Post videos with all celestial gear and times, and build links. THEN we will take your statements as more than pure conjecture by a snowflake.
Lemme know how much fun you have doing no updraft gorseval, or gorseval at all.
You don’t seem to understand. Your “meta” is designed around cheesing the content in the fastest quickest way possible, taking the path of least resistance. The DPS benchmark aren’t compared to what DPS is actually needed to reliably beat a PvE encounter(which is the only thing that matters).
Your trying to tell me Power PS cannot reliably clear out all raids? Power PS who also has access to everything you just listed.
Instead of a compilation of walkthroughs that show exactly how to counter every move that a boss does for every profession (like in dark souls). Instead we have Metabattle and DPS benchmarks, and people prejudicing against other players for using different builds that can reliably beat PvE content. The fact that there is prejudice in PvE is even more hilarious. This isn’t PvP or roaming.
You raise a very good? pont, to me it sounds like people just get an ego boost off creating the meta like they get to decide what certain metas are . Your right pure do does cheese ways through mechanics.
Can you bring some very profound examples of cheesing mechanics due to dps besides dungeon bosses? (Keep in mind that those are trash as hell!)
And while you’re on it please bring up the real challenging and difficult mechanic you have to deal with if you lack on dps that aren’t there if the dps is high.
I would really like to see those mechanics that are either very hard to execute or show a greater skill level when dealing with them.
I’ll be glad too. With a optimized DPS party. A T4 few boss examples: Old Tom, burst him down (skip the fan). Archdiviner, burst him down, only gets 0-2 big attacks off. Hammer to seal. Burst him down. Repeat. Brazen Gladiator, melee stack and burn. He tries to do the AOE attack. CC, and DPS. Mesmer distorts party through boss attacks, to maximize DPS.
In Dark Souls 3, SlaveKnight Gael
Skilled Player, who knows boss mechanics
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W0o_hRk6Y9E
Unskilled player, who uses DPS to overpower the boss (guy likes using clickbait titles)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zHga3uuv1M
I personally have done a Blood Level 4 run (no leveling) in Bloodborne. And a Soul Level 1 run in Dark Souls 3. Bosses kill you in 1-2 hits. Look up Bloodborne Waste of Skin and Dark Souls 3 SL1 run on youtube. Spoilers it took me 30 hrs to beat bloodborne, all bosses with a regular playthrough. It took 500 hrs on my Waste of Skin run.
Its interesting how people on GW2 define what is “useless” and what is “good”. In Dark Souls, the best players are those that have low dps (fist only), rely on nothing except understanding game mechanics, and do not rely on stats (naked). High dps means you don’t not need to know how to reliably counter every boss mechanic 100% of the time, those players specialize in cheesing and bursting down encounters. Low dps, means the boss fight drags out for long enough that you will be forced to experience every attack multiple times and your forced to actually learn them.
Your analogy falls apart if you actually apply it properly. Building defensive stats in GW2 is like building full heavy armor with maximum hp and stamina and bunkering behind a shield to smack the boss every now and then without even needing to move your feet in dark souls. Unless there’s a hard enrage timer (some raid bosses), building defensive trivializes the difficulty of the fight at the cost of making it take forever.
Except that I am talking about celestial, in my opinion one of the most powerful stat combinations. Capable of fighting real players and reliably conquering all PvE content (solo and group). What do one trick pony builds do? They specialize in cheesing bosses by bursting them down before they can do anything. “Good” players in GW2, are master of cheese and strive to speed kill everything. Good players in Dark Souls, focus on learning and understanding boss mechanics.
Damage, health, and armor are all crutches. And the biggest crutch of them all is damage. It is ironic, that people have disdain for health and armor when damage carries the hardest.
Its interesting how people on GW2 define what is “useless” and what is “good”. In Dark Souls, the best players are those that have low dps (fist only), rely on nothing except understanding game mechanics, and do not rely on stats (naked). High dps means you don’t not need to know how to reliably counter every boss mechanic 100% of the time, those players specialize in cheesing and bursting down encounters. Low dps, means the boss fight drags out for long enough that you will be forced to experience every attack multiple times and your forced to actually learn them.
Celestial has more than enough DPS, to reliably beat all PvE content. The stat combination is extremely useful in all 3 game modes: PvP (before it was removed), WvW, and PvE. The stat combination, allows your character to be self-sufficient against all situations. Excellent stat for dueling, for roaming, for PvE, and in the past excellent stat for PvP. Meta builds on the other hand are one trick ponies, that optimize one main trait of the build. One small nerf, to their one trick and they fall from the meta.
I imagine this would be really easy to implement too
Sigh… As a game programmer, this sort of comments make me feel like this
You get that with all kinds of programming. Every time a user wants some change and says ‘this should be simple, just…’ I just assume their estimated time for writing/testing the feature is off by at least a magnitude and will probably have unanticipated results.
Yeah. A lot of the time though, you can at least see why something would logically seem easy to a layperson though. In this case unless you are completely baffled by the general capabilities of computers this one should seem obviously hard.
There’s a good reason as to why customers should never set the engineering scope.
I’ve read your explanations, and they don’t tell me much about what is actually involved in allowing a “offline” mode.
If I was a client, and I asked you for a proposal. I would deem your explanation insufficient, and you would lose out on the contract. From what you have said, you have no idea how the communication infrastructure works, what processes are being used, and what is the philosophy behind their architecture.
“There’s a good reason as to why customers should never set the engineering scope.”
This statement is false, the client is a important part of setting the “engineering scope”. Many conferences are held and documents are exchanged, in the process of creating and defining the product. What is being delivered to the client, is stated out exactly.
(edited by Chun.5827)
In almost every case, the first thing “training” guilds do is push players toward meta builds – which is pretty much the opposite of the points we’re trying to make here. It’s about realistically (important word) opening the experience to more playstyles and builds.
This isnt about hard walls or extremes. It is about degrees and the point at which content is unnecessarily restrictive and creates a Stepford Wife syndrome in the game – one in which every player either plays to the mold or gets left behind.
This hung up about changing your gear and build because of raids seems so fake to me.
I’m a warrior main.
When i started doing dungeons back in the day i had to change my gear and playstyle to zerker so i could pull my weight in the encounter and be able to join more pug groups.When i started doing fractals about 2,5 years ago i had to change my build and utilities to phalanx strength so i could be as usefull as possible in the encounter and be able to join more pug groups.
Its no different with raids. This is truely no argument for an identity change for guild wars 2.
Maybe the time has come to close this thread. We are at the point were its exclusively a thread complaining about “why i don’t like guild wars 2 raids”.
Raids, represent the biggest change to the identity of Guild Wars franchise. In the 12 years I’ve played Guild Wars from the original Guild Wars Prophecies, I have never bothered posting on forums and even then, this is the only thread I’ve ever bothered to commented on.
Raids, represent a shift away from the “casual philosophy” that existed all the way back from Guild Wars Prophecies. All easy (Normal Mode, Open World) and elite PvE content (Slavers Exile, UW, FoW, Fractals, Dungeons), in both GW1 and GW2 followed the spirit this philosophy, until Raids were introduced.
“Raids already have a low barrier of entry, willingness. If that is too much to ask, then leave those behind.”
Really now? Where is my team of heroes, so that I am in control of all aspects of the raid? I’ll be more than willing to take part.
“Oh well, there are numerous ways that they can take part, and that if they feel left out, it’s all in their own head”.
Tell me about the “numerous” ways to take part. List at least 3 different reasonable ways. “if they feel left out, its all in their head”, basically translated to your not one of us, get out? Its all in your head, so whatever you say doesn’t matter? Does that sound about right? Do you take that philosophy into life as well? I hope you don’t work in a professional environment regulated by a professional association (Engineering, Medicine, Psychology). Professional companies and clients don’t like working with people, with attitude issues. Especially professions that rely on on their members with high ethical standards, to maintain the reputation of their trade.
People with your attitude are exactly why the Raiding scene is poisoned. If there was a Professional Association of Raiders, that regulates the practices of raiders. Unprofessional attitude would be stamped out. Good conduct and practice would be enforced. Unfortunately, such a association does not exist. The “social” aspect of the Raiding is off putting because of unprofessional amateurish conduct from the raiding community.
Also, your comment about soloing Cairn? Have you ever heard of “Bestheda Difficulty”. Its essentially cheap artificial difficulty where you fight massive damage sponge, that do large damage to the player. That’s not fair, ingenious, challenging content. Take a look at Dark Souls, Bloodborne and Nioh. Real challenging content, takes much more effort than simply changing number values to favor the boss.
I want casual challenging content that I can easily leave and enter, at any time, with emphasis on skill and dedication, without being disadvantaged. Its a game, why do I care about hardcore? I am not going to waste my time arranging my schedule with 9 other players, and not get paid. The only things worth going hardcore about, involve a paycheck, and professional ethical co-workers.
Fatalyz.7168
“Maybe that is the underlying issue, people don’t want to improve their gameplay, or feel that they have to improve to complete said boss, which is honestly just sad.”
I love the fallacy that non-raiders are lazy players who don’t want to improve or work for their rewards continues to persist. Take a look at my comments on page 16, I’ve outlined valid numerous reasons why this statement isn’t true and the real reason is the unnecessary “social challenge” barrier.
“Are you arguing that people shouldn’t have to get better at their class and master the mechanics of the fight to be able to pass it?”
Nope, that’s not what Blaeys.3102 is saying. He wants challenging content which has low barriers of entry that pretty much anyone can get into, the only thing to should define success or failure is dedication. The irony with Raids, is that the “social challenge” element (and barrier of entry) actually hurts how “challenging” they can actually make Raids. Look at my comments on page 16 for more details.
As Blaeys.3102 has said
“The difficulty of raids are nothing more than this simple equation:
Copy/Paste Build + Memorize/Mimic dance = dead raid boss"
Now look at gold standard Action RPG games (Nioh, Dark Souls, Bloodborne), take a look at videos of boss fights from those games compared to GW2. The difference in quality of challenging content is staggering. Gold standard ARPG’s have excellent designed bosses, no barriers of entry (can try whenever you want, and not get leashed down by other people), personal skill is the determining factor not trying to get the highest dps numbers (ironically to speed up the fight and avoid boss mechanics).
How does GW2 try to make “challenging content”? By gating the learning experience behind group drama and dealing with unprofessional internet strangers, and when you get past the painful “training” phase. You find out the “challenge” of the content is to memorize formula, then mindlessly farm it. Try turning off your brain in games like Nioh and Dark Souls, doesn’t work.
Without the “social challenge” aspect of raids, there isn’t much challenge. Maybe that’s why Anet is afraid to implement heroes in this game. Because people like myself would clear their “challenging content” in a day, like I did for Hard Mode Slavers Exile, Domain of Anguish, The Deep, etc.
Every reward should be available as long as you put in enough dedication into your chosen gameplay. That gameplay should not be gated behind a social challenge like in raids. On the other hand, a purely technical challenge, like in Dark Souls which stays true to the casual philosophy? That in my mind is fair to ask.
On a side note, if raids had heroes that I can personally control and take responsibility over. Then the accessibility of raids will become available to everyone with enough dedication to succeed.
You are complaining that GW2 has content that you need people to complete it?
Of course it has , its a MMO after all, if you want Challenge without getting anyone involved then you play Dark Souls, Demon Souls, Bloodborn as you said. ( i love those games too )
I’m a casual too, and I raid. Its actually easy to get a group together if you make a network of friends.
Everytime i got a nice pug group, i would add the commander, and say to him that he feels free to invite me again anytime he wants. Now its very commom for me to just be playing and get a pm “Hey wanna join a Xera kill” then i just go and get a fast kill.
So raids are really acessibly if you want to play little time, but for this to happen you need to get the social aspect of a MMO and socialize.
You can play a MMO solo, but complaining that something cant be dono solo, then go play single player games.
“You can play a MMO solo, but complaining that something cant be dono solo, then go play single player games.”.
So basically if you don’t have connections or a network of in-game friends, get lost? It’s interesting to see the types of players, who are attracted to GW2 these days. Guild Wars has always accommodated both single players as well as groups in all PvE content. Well… until raids were introduced.
Have you noticed how GW2 tries to promote friendly cooperation and easy content accessibility? No one can steal your loot or rewards, so no gangs of players with “network of friends” can bully and isolate new players. Events are scaled, 1 person can succeed in the same event that 50 people are doing. Even if your a solo player or a player without a group of friends, fractals and dungeons are easily accessible still. You can leave for a year, and come back. All your gear haven’t been devalued by newer stronger equipment.
Raids, are a example of a change in GW2’s philosophy, which in the past caters to it’s casual audience. Instead of inclusive content that is easy to enter and leave, you create groups of “friends” who create exclusive selective clubs from the public. To join, you need to follow their rules or get out. Sounds very inviting. To even learn and get experience (which is needed for PUG runs) you need to join said club.
“Its actually easy to get a group together if you make a network of friends.”
For some people this is major roadblock. For example, someone who works graveyard shifts (i.e plays at irregular times) and can’t meet the schedule of 9 other people. There are other cases of course.
“Now its very commom for me to just be playing and get a pm “Hey wanna join a Xera kill” then i just go and get a fast kill. So raids are really acessibly if you want to play little time, but for this to happen you need to get the social aspect of a MMO and socialize."
Yea, its easy to get in a group and succeed, if your already knowledgeable and experienced. The irony is get that knowledge and experience in the first place, you need to deal with stressful training group situations. Why aren’t you joining training raids only, (no raids with experienced people allowed). Tell me all about how easy and accessible the social aspect of raiding is. Tell me about how it takes “little time”.
Even the simplest tasks with 10 people are difficult. A humorous example: Imagine if you could only take a dump, when 9 other people do. And you have to do it in sync. A lot more difficult than doing it by yourself. I consider the social aspect of raids a unnecessary barrier of entry. That has nothing to do with challenging content. Personally, they should move the challenging social content to guild missions.
TL;DR The spirit of Guild wars philosophy changed with raids. Casual players want to play at their own time, at their own terms, and at their own pace. The barrier of entry into raids, does not allow this.
So the game should stay just as the core game, no added difficulty, no content that requires minimal teamplay in the open world, every reward should be available even to people who just started and every class should be equal on every front.
That… that sounds like a great game, yeah, please do that. Because after all that’s been said in this thread, i actually followed quite some time now, seems to boil down to that.
I’d actually ask: How casual is casual? Not even, what is casual, because apparantely i’m not despite only playing a limited time each day and not raiding, while i’d like to try in the future.
How casual should this game be in the long run, because honestly? I don’t like the core game after what it became with the NPE.
My definition of casual is the ability to play the game at my own terms and own time without any in-game disadvantage being imposed on me. All PvE, open world, dungeons, gear, and fractals follow this philosophy. For Dungeons and fractals, you can easily jump into one, minutes into logging into the game. Why? because the content can be easily done by a loosely organized group, and focuses mostly on personal ability. Picking up 4 random players and succeeding isn’t a difficult task. Equipment in GW2, is capped at ascended quality, and even then exotic armor isn’t much weaker than ascended. You could go away for a year and your gear is still relevant.
Now that’s look at raids. The majority of the challenge comes from the social component. Can a casual player, get 9 other compatible people to join them within minutes from logging in? You can easily do that in dungeons and fractals. Casual doesn’t mean a avoidance of challenging content or a lack of skill. It means the player wants to play at their own terms, at their own time, not constricted by the rules of other players.
Dark Souls 3 Ringed City just came out 2 days ago. Look up “Dark Souls 3 Ringed City Bosses” on you tube, the content isn’t easy. Notice how whenever you die, you can try again without delay, at your own time, at your own pace.The Dark Souls series is a example of a game which has a fair and challenging difficulty but is friendly to casual players. I consider myself a casual gamer, and I’ve beaten Bloodborne + DLC as well as Dark Souls 3 bosses all at the lowest level. But I cannot even start learning how to raid, without 9 compatible people (barrier of entry). Casual players dislike barriers of entry.
Now look at raids again. The challenge comes from synchronizing a dance between 10 people, it comes from enforcing discipline and roles on 10 people. Those are social challenges, not the technical Dark Souls/Bloodborne challenges that I crave.
To answer your quote “So the game should stay just as the core game, no added difficulty, no content that requires minimal teamplay in the open world, every reward should be available even to people who just started and every class should be equal on every front.”
The game should have added difficulty which stays true to Guildwar’s philosophy going all the way back to GW1 (I’ve soloed all elite content in GW1 with heroes and henchmen). The ability play the game mode, at your own pace, at your own time, at your own terms.
“no content that requires minimal teamplay in the open world”
Dragons stand, Gerent, Triple Trouble among others are content that require minimal teamplay in the open world.
“every reward should be available even to people who just started and every class should be equal on every front.”
Every reward should be available as long as you put in enough dedication into your chosen gameplay. That gameplay should not be gated behind a social challenge like in raids. On the other hand, a purely technical challenge, like in Dark Souls which stays true to the casual philosophy? That in my mind is fair to ask.
On a side note, if raids had heroes that I can personally control and take responsibility over. Then the accessibility of raids will become available to everyone with enough dedication to succeed.
(edited by Chun.5827)
Its interesting how you equate a “challenge” with group content.
Considering the genre of the game we’re talking about (A Massive-Multiplayer Online RPG), I sure hope that the difficult content is group content. Otherwise, someone screwed up somewhere very early in the design process.
The whole point of these games is to play in a more social manner. Because let’s be frank (or bob, if you prefer), if not for the social aspect I could play a few dozen much better games. :P
Let me ask you this? Where does the root of Raid toxicity and conflict come from? It comes from the social aspect.
Some examples:
1. Spying and laying judgement on other group members, through the use of DPS meters
2. LFG requirements that have this formatt: LF X or kick. where X = LI, certain builds, etc.
3. Singling out a victim in a group to publicly humiliate and verbally abuse
4. Raiders vs Everyone else mentality. Segregation mentality, plenty of examples of this in human history.Now what if raiding was solo challenging content?
1. Focuses exclusively on the “challenge” aspect
2. You can’t get carried or carry others. There wouldn’t be any raid buyers or doubts about the expertise of fellow party members.
3. No toxicity, there is no one to blame for any failures except yourself
4. Taking ownership and responsibility for your own learning and progression. No one dictates your schedule or how much effort you put in. Whether you want to use DPS meters or not. Everything is on you.
Take a look on Dark Souls 3 reddit or Bloodborne reddit. There’s a reason why toxicity is near non-existent.GW2 social content in the past has always been low requirement and loosely organized to promote cooperation and happiness across as many people as possible. Raids changed this, and in terms of challenge, enforcing discipline and requirements is a social challenge not a technical one. A abrupt contrast from the rest of the PvE content in the game, the “spirit” of the game has changed.
Why should the truly challenging content be group enforced? The moment it becomes group enforced the social aspect acts as a barrier to people who only want the challenge aspect. Change truly challenging content to solo, and you remove all the toxicity around raids. The only people who could complain, are people who want the rewards but can’t beat the content.
Per your #3 solo content…
Are you aware that people have been toxic, cast blame, and complained about solo content since this game launched?
Almost all of the game is soloable. One small fraction is designed for people who want a cooperative, challenging, group experience…if you do not like that sort of experience, ignore this content.
Yes, people have been casting blame on easy solo content in this game, no challenging solo content exists FYI. So you can’t be talking about what I am talking about.
Where is all the loosely organized or solo challenging content in this game? Almost all of the game is easy solo content, fixed that statement for you. Are you talking about old outdated dungeons that I’ve run thousands of times already? Or fractals, with only two new fractals added? The rest of the fractals are as ancient as dungeons. I am out of line for wanting new challenging content that I am locked out of not because I don’t have the dedication, but because I don’t want to deal with 9 other people’s problems?
Yes, I am not happy because the only new challenging content in the game is locked behind 9 other people. I am missing out on 4 raid wings worth of content.
TL;DR There are people in this game who want challenging content, that is designed around 5 players or less. Either loosely organized challenging content that emphasizes personal skill, or solo content where personal skill is mandatory. Raids have accessibility issues outside of needing “dedication”.
(edited by Chun.5827)
Its interesting how you equate a “challenge” with group content.
Considering the genre of the game we’re talking about (A Massive-Multiplayer Online RPG), I sure hope that the difficult content is group content. Otherwise, someone screwed up somewhere very early in the design process.
The whole point of these games is to play in a more social manner. Because let’s be frank (or bob, if you prefer), if not for the social aspect I could play a few dozen much better games. :P
Let me ask you this? Where does the root of Raid toxicity and conflict come from? It comes from the social aspect.
Some examples:
1. Spying and laying judgement on other group members, through the use of DPS meters
2. LFG requirements that have this formatt: LF X or kick. where X = LI, certain builds, etc.
3. Singling out a victim in a group to publicly humiliate and verbally abuse
4. Raiders vs Everyone else mentality. Segregation mentality, plenty of examples of this in human history.
Now what if raiding was solo challenging content?
1. Focuses exclusively on the “challenge” aspect
2. You can’t get carried or carry others. There wouldn’t be any raid buyers or doubts about the expertise of fellow party members.
3. No toxicity, there is no one to blame for any failures except yourself
4. Taking ownership and responsibility for your own learning and progression. No one dictates your schedule or how much effort you put in. Whether you want to use DPS meters or not. Everything is on you.
Take a look on Dark Souls 3 reddit or Bloodborne reddit. There’s a reason why toxicity is near non-existent.
GW2 social content in the past has always been low requirement and loosely organized to promote cooperation and happiness across as many people as possible. Raids changed this, and in terms of challenge, enforcing discipline and requirements is a social challenge not a technical one. A abrupt contrast from the rest of the PvE content in the game, the “spirit” of the game has changed.
Why should the truly challenging content be group enforced? The moment it becomes group enforced the social aspect acts as a barrier to people who only want the challenge aspect. Change truly challenging content to solo, and you remove all the toxicity around raids. The only people who could complain, are people who want the rewards but can’t beat the content.
To Ayrilana.1396,
Its interesting how you equate a “challenge” with group content. You obviously never played any difficult single player games. The “#1 reason people fail” doesn’t apply to people like me. If the raids were designed around challenging a single player, I would have no problems sinking in weeks worth of effort overcoming the challenge. Unlike in group content, in a single player challenge you would have to fill every role by yourself, and understand every facet of your profession. The meta builds wouldn’t be specialist class roles, they would be self-sufficient builds designed to deal with many scenarios. Self-sufficient build take more skill to use, require greater profession knowledge. You need to cover your own cc, cleanse your own conditions, stack your own might, etc. The builds would more closely resemble roamer or duelist builds (which definitely take more skill to use than your rotation memorizing PvE builds).
Its always been the “spirit” of GW1 & GW2, to allow the player to play at their own terms. You can go away for a year, and all the content is easily accessible and easily PUG able without communication. Unlike other MMO’s, Guildwars 1 and 2 is very friendly to solo players, “Group Content” up until now, you never needed to actually deal with other people. The only content that isn’t easily accessible is raids. I’ve soloed dungeons and fractals. Its doable but annoying considering that the bosses have health bars designed around 5 players. Raids, have health bars designed around 10 people. Unless I want to spend hours plinking away, its not an option and not fun.
This quote cannot be more wrong “And raids are meant to be a step above that for those that wanted more of a challenge. So they’re not for you. Not everything in a game will appeal to everyone.” I want challenge, for the pure sake of challenge. Easily accessible content where I rely only on my own skills and abilities. Not a challenge for the Human Resources Department.
“Group Content” != challenging content. Play Dark Souls 3/Bloodborne No Leveling, All bosses. Come back after 1000hrs of dying and tell me about your “easy” time. No one to rely on but yourself, every mistake is your own, you control all variables that lead to your success or failure. All PvE content in GW1 and GW2 can be done solo or easily done in loosely organized groups, except raids. This greatly affects the accessibility of raids, there are people like myself who want challenging content but can’t because its locked behind 9 other people. I want purely technical challenges, where I can play at my own pace. That focuses exclusively on personal skill and ability.
To Ayrilana.1396,
Its interesting how you claim that the only people who should be able to raid are those that have enough “dedication”. And people, who refuse to put in the effort shouldn’t raid. How about people who like challenges, but hate having to socialize and rely on 9 other people. Read my comments on page 3 and 4 of this topic.
Shouldn’t “challenging” content be based only on pure skill and dedication? Raids should be relabeled “Socially Challenging Content” instead, because the true challenge comes from having to deal with people. I am not Human Resources, I want to play the game, not deal with conflicting interests and drama. Yes, there is a major issue with raid accessibility.
I like how you mentioned GW1, I beaten all elite zones without other players. Some examples being Underworld, Fissure of Woe, Slavers Exile, Domain of Anguish, The Deep, Urgoz, Winds of Change(HM), War in Kryta (HM), all missions and explorable areas(HM). In GW2, I’ve done all PvE areas, events, dungeons, and fractals without needing to socialize or communicate with anyone. The only exception to PvE content released by Anet is…. raids.
Fractals and dungeons are easy to learn simply by copying the group, no social drama needed when learning. I’ve PUGed thousands of dungeons and fractals. Here is how the runs go, everyone silently plays, at the end everyone says “ty”. To even learn raids, guess what? you have to deal with drama from other people. I can’t learn on my own pace, with my own schedule, and at my own terms. All Gw1 and Gw2 PvE content except raids is easily accessible.
The “challenge” in challenging content should be because the content itself is actually difficult, not the difficulty of trying to play with 9 other people. I highly suggest you play Dark Souls 3/Bloodborne, No Leveling run, All bosses. Your understand what actual mechanically “challenging content” is. What GW2 needs is challenging content, where the mechanics are challenging, not because its a social challenge.
The issue is the lack of “raid difficulty” solo content. I can’t even practice, without needing 9 other people. The content is either easy, like open world. Where at most, enemy AI have some kind of gimmicky trick (like the snipers or pocket raptors), once you understand the gimmick then the content is easy. Essentially, enemies in open world are one-trick ponies, figure out the trick and you win. Or its more challenging content, which without exception are all designed for a group (Dungeons, Fractals, and Raids). With HOT specs, you can kill bosses in decent time solo in Dungeons. In Fractals, its a pain to solo as T4 bosses are massive damage sponges. And raids, its just ridiculous.
I don’t mind challenge content purely for the challenge. For example, in Fallout 4 Survival I would try to beat the game, fists only, no armor, rush the Nuka DLC at lvl 3. Sometimes I would make mistakes that would cause me to lose up 3 hrs of progress, I would learn from it and get better. I can’t even start the learning progress for raids, because I need other people to even start learning. I am mentioning this, as a common excuse from raiders is that most people “do not want to put in the time” or “gear properly”. The biggest issue, at least for me is accessibility. I want content that relies only my abilities and dedication. With that kind of content, there is no toxicity as there is no one to scapegoat or blame (only yourself). No chance of getting carried either. Its like a academic test, you know your stuff or you don’t. If you don’t pass, come back again.
There are a lot comments talking about raids and there difficulty and accessibility. I would like to throw my hat in the ring, and state that the difficulty of raids, at least for me is because it’s “group content”. I’ve beaten every boss in Dark Souls 3 at Soul Level 1, as well as every boss in Bloodborne with the “Waste of Skin” Origin. Some examples of some tough bosses I’ve beaten would be Laurence (11 hours of dying), Pthumerian Descendant (9 hours of dying), Loran Darkbeast (16 hours of dying).
The problem with GW2 raids, is that you need 9 other people. You need to arrange your schedule around those other people, rely on the skill and experience levels of those people, and deal with any group drama that might unfold. On the other hand, a game like Bloodborne or Dark Souls 3, you rely only on your own ability, every mistake you make is your own, and you can try anytime you want without compromising your schedule, and you take ownership for every success and failure. I personally would like to raid, but cannot because I forced to rely on other people, I cannot have a “fair challenge” without relying on others. I don’t want to spend 90 minutes slowing plinking away at a bosses health, because the boss is designed around the dps of 10 people.
I believe that “fair and challenging” content should be based purely on personal skill as well as easily accessible. For example, in Bloodborne you can beat every boss in the game without leveling, without any armor, without help from others, without weapons, relying nothing on dodging and positioning. In other words, only a deep and fundamental understanding of the games core mechanics will be enough. You cannot memorize some guild’s raid formula to win, only through true understanding of boss and class mechanics can you win. Obviously, GW2 is a lot more restricted in terms of gear, level, builds. That being said, the challenging content should not be gated around needing other people. I don’t play challenging games to improve my social skills, I play challenging content to improve my technical ability in the game and GW2 sorely lacks actual challenging solo content.
I’ve read posts of players like myself, who enjoy challenging content to improve and to push limits. But that content shouldn’t be gated by the need for other people, challenging content should test the skill of the individual and designed around a single player. I am getting sick of soloing “meat shield” bosses with massive health pools designed around 5-10 people.
The solution is to make future challenging content, designed for one player. There would be no toxicity, because there is only one person to blame for mistakes (you). The content would be more accessible, as anyone can join. You would be able to try the new challenging content at your own terms, at your own pace, and you take ownership for your own success or failure.
Just my two cents.