Guild Wars 2

Forum bug, she’s on it.

Blaeys.3102:

Raids changed that. For the first time since launch, there was a part of the game that forced players to “optimize” their characters. There was no scaling or any real way for many players to retain their character’s identity and still have a reasonable chance at experiencing the content.

Sorry, that’s just inaccurate. People felt just as forced to “optimize” to PUG dungeons in the early days. Zerk or bust.

Raids were designed for the sort of people who care about learning mechanics are doing the best they can. There’s still a huge variety of builds & comps that can complete raids. People sometimes don’t realize it because QT has been incredibly quick about publishing the optimal builds.

But beyond that, raids are such a tiny fractal of the content in the game, why obsess about it like it’s affected the overall direction of the game, which is what this thread is about. It’s a single game mode, that isn’t required for anything except skins & bragging rights.

Sure, Raids are a change to the game; they aren’t an indicator of an identity change.

Ashen.2907:

People choosing to do higher tier fractals for the challenge or the reward are not facing content gated by difficult to acquire gear as you claimed. Its the same Fractals, just, essentially, a different difficulty setting.

I think he or she meant requiring more ascended gear to fit enough infusions.

Nikal.4921:

I have hated in other games to see the divide between raiders (small %) and non-raiders (majority) and so much dev focus on raids that only a small minority of players would ever see at the expense of focus on content for the majority. One of the things that drew me to GW2 way back when was no raids. Sad to see that didn’t last. Just didn’t make sense for this game. Really, what has it added to the game?

focus on raids?
whats are you going on about?
they release VERY few raids and they even said that there are barely any people on the raid team
raids are not a part of general progression and are completely an option in gw2 for people who want that thing,and like the very small raid team there arent many raiders

Well instanced content went from dungeons to fractals, and to new(er) fractals with CM and Raids….

Open world went from Hirathi Hinterlands and Orr meta event’s (temples?) to Silverwastes to VB/AB/DS….

Farming maps now provide Trinkets and Breathers…. The game is progressing…

As for scaling; yes it still exists, some of my characters are still Exotic. Fractals will allow for some freedom in gear… Raids can be finished in exotic gear… the old dungeons were optimized for rare (yellow) gear
Ascneded is very easy to aquire nowadays. The times we thought armors and gear would take 1000-1200 gold are now gone… unless you want specific stats (trailblazer?)

Then again grind was introduced… and it has been a pain (runes of leadership for your 3 mesmer armors???) bloodstone fen feels unrewarding for your time spend there….

All things said about the trinity are false. tanks in this game are not tanks. they can sustain some dmg but really tanky? no…
We have the DPS/DOT group, heal group and support group… most of the time classes fullfill roles in 2 of these groups… Tanks are support classes with a lot of dependency on 3rd party heals… We noticed kiters, tanks, random focussed targets, mechanics do not yet allow for pure tanks

The support/heal/dps has been here since lauch..
The gear grind is negliable
The grind HAS however increased for ALTERNATE ways to aquire gear
The elitism from 1st year dungeons has shifted from dungeons to raids, Fractals is mostly unaffected except lvl 100 CM maybe and highest t4’s
The rewards for raids, CM’s and the like IS however a bit overscaled.

Amaranthe.3578:

Nikal.4921:

I have hated in other games to see the divide between raiders (small %) and non-raiders (majority) and so much dev focus on raids that only a small minority of players would ever see at the expense of focus on content for the majority. One of the things that drew me to GW2 way back when was no raids. Sad to see that didn’t last. Just didn’t make sense for this game. Really, what has it added to the game?

focus on raids?
whats are you going on about?
they release VERY few raids and they even said that there are barely any people on the raid team
raids are not a part of general progression and are completely an option in gw2 for people who want that thing,and like the very small raid team there arent many raiders

Please read more carefully before you bother to reply with something. The “focus on raids” part did NOT refer to GW2 but to devs of other MMOs who have raids as the main progression method in the so-called endgame. He even stated *"I have hated in other games (…)"

Mahou.3924:

Amaranthe.3578:

Nikal.4921:

I have hated in other games to see the divide between raiders (small %) and non-raiders (majority) and so much dev focus on raids that only a small minority of players would ever see at the expense of focus on content for the majority. One of the things that drew me to GW2 way back when was no raids. Sad to see that didn’t last. Just didn’t make sense for this game. Really, what has it added to the game?

focus on raids?
whats are you going on about?
they release VERY few raids and they even said that there are barely any people on the raid team
raids are not a part of general progression and are completely an option in gw2 for people who want that thing,and like the very small raid team there arent many raiders

Please read more carefully before you bother to reply with something. The “focus on raids” part did NOT refer to GW2 but to devs of other MMOs who have raids as the main progression method in the so-called endgame. He even stated *"I have hated in other games (…)"

If you decide to post in a thread where the OP describes this game as having a focus on raids, and comment about a focus on raids, you should expect that your comment might be seen as on the topic raised by the OP…this game’s supposed focus on raids.

What do raids add you ask? Challenging group content for those desiring it…without taking the focus of development away from the open world.

If one doesnt care for a particular type of content, as I have no interest in raiding for example, one can just skip it.

Nikal.4921:

I have hated in other games to see the divide between raiders (small %) and non-raiders (majority) and so much dev focus on raids that only a small minority of players would ever see at the expense of focus on content for the majority. One of the things that drew me to GW2 way back when was no raids. Sad to see that didn’t last. Just didn’t make sense for this game. Really, what has it added to the game?

Well, let me preface this by saying I am not a raider and don’t plan on being a raider. That being said, raiding has added a somewhat unique mechanic for Anet and Guild Wars for secondary story delivery. Basically they can expand on non-core Tyria story and lore by not directly affecting the core story and deliver high end content that some may decide to try out later on.

Of course the big problem here is that most casual players (myself included) will probably never experience this content or try to see it when others have long since stopped playing it, and the dev team is using valuable resources for this stuff that they could be using to focus on content for the general community, but thats a horse of a different glue.

Basically, they do serve a neat purpose for the team, but I don’t think that is time well spent for the overall health of the game.

Kraggy.4169:

Sylent.3165:

I used to love this game with a passion up until hot release. The game went a completely different direction some loved some hated. Truth is we just need to wait for next expansion and see what we get. I just hope they stop wasting time on raids for such a small player base. Anyone who actually plays this game for raids is simply wrong because if you like raids you should be playing WoW or ff14. We need better content for people who left those games or don’t play those games to not have the companies dedication going three

Totally agree, GW2 wasn’t WOW and the like BECAUSE it didn’t have a ‘raid community’ to which the devs had to pander, sadly HoT changed that for the worse.

@Behellagh.1468 lol thats from Megami sama :} kewl stuff.

They added a new condition with HoT called Toxicity. :}

Guess HoT was really towards conditions could cripple even gw2 itself, ANd Anet way of inovations has cracked armor on it… guess the next expansion will be the deep wound.

Excelsior.

I am here since the release date of Heavensward because FF14 sucks so bad (and just right now, they made things even worse, Jesus Christ Yoshi-P!), which was June 23rd of 2015. That’s not even 2 years so I can’t tell what the identity is supposed to be like. I normally have a problem with U.S. games style-wise, I just think of horrible JRR Tolkien wanna-be worlds (WoW) and pseudo-coolness.

Being also pretty much resistant to any sort of hype, I literally stumbled over GW2 by accident (small race required). The reasons why I enjoy this game are more aesthetically:

• Different races that are really different from each other (cabbage people and cats. Compare to all the humans-with-toy-tails from other games…)
• No genderlock (Want to play archer or healer – sorry, females only)
• Different themes (Snow, Beach, Forest, Jungle,…)
• Different professions (Come on, the Engineer rocks!) off the regular Mage, Tank and Archer stuff
• Splatter art menus
• Asura!!

This game play well and looks good, the themes are nice and not all about political correctness like new games. It’s great audio-wise. It is simply great in every aspect. The identity of the game shifted a bit, but still within the GW2 awesomeness.

I have an issue of a gaming magazine, the German PC Games, with a multi-page article about GW2’s upcoming release and reading how they are looking forward and hyping the game, I see nothing has changed from what they’ve written in the article. You’re maybe just a bit used to high quality GW2 gameplay. . . ?

Blaeys.3102:

In my opinion, it can almost all be linked back to how they have chosen to include raids in the game.

So, how did raids change the “identity” of the game? I admit they are only one small piece. They dont really detract from the development of other content. And, they are fairly well done (most of them).

The actual problem comes from the average players’ desire to experience the entire PVE picture – from the ambient creature sitting idly half way through a jumping puzzle to the last boss in the last raid wing.

A year and a half ago, players could experience every element of the PVE game without compromising how they played. Every profession, every build and every stat set was reasonably feasible in every part of the game. And, in the one area where more difficult content was being added (fractals), there was a scaling system.

Raids changed that. For the first time since launch, there was a part of the game that forced players to “optimize” their characters. There was no scaling or any real way for many players to retain their character’s identity and still have a reasonable chance at experiencing the content.

This single change has had huge repercussions in how players perceive the game and the direction it is now going. Now, the only players who get to experience it all are those who are willing to (at least partially) homogenize their builds, stat sets and playstyles.

And that is bad.

NOTE: I do not see challenging content or even raids as bad things in the game. It is definitely needed and fills a much needed niche. It is the lack of scaling (easy, hard mode) that creates this issue. Players who feel excluded from PVE content they perceive as endgame (especially when it relates to story) will grow (are growing and have grown) disillusioned with the game.

+1

This is most notably apparent in WvW which did not have a strict meta except for zergbusting, and even then, defying convention to counter your enemy groups and playing a class well went much further than just the build one played. Sadly, content clearly only problematic in Raid design and PvE has frequently made it to being the PvP formats, and in the case of our elite specs, seem to have been based entirely on PvE encounters from their design.

As of now, the game should just be renamed to Build Wars. I’m very attached to certain styles and aesthetics in every game I play, and often simply just don’t play a game when that isn’t there. GW2 went from absolutely awesome in this regard (being a more competitive player) to just abysmally bad.

The game, particularly on the game-mechanic level with such strict enforcement of build use, is just not as fun. I find myself not wanting to play my characters most times, because they’ll either be absolutely terrible if I choose to play them in a certain way, and absolutely distaste the current optimized builds.

Yes it has (to answer the OP). The arguments for or against don’t matter. If the perception towards the game is negative, nothing you can do or say will matter.

Blude.6812:

Yes it has (to answer the OP). The arguments for or against don’t matter. If the perception towards the game is negative, nothing you can do or say will matter.

That’s not always true. I’ve met people who had a negative opinion on something because there were things they didn’t know about it, and when they learned those things, their opinion changed. Not always, of course, maybe not often but it does happen.

I know people who hated Hot, jumping puzzles, one zone or another, and gradually over time, they came to have different opinions as they got better at that content.

Of course, some people won’t change their mind. That doesn’t really stop it from being a valid discussion however.

JTGuevara.9018:

Gw2 did take a different direction with HoT. Some good, some bad, some disastrous. HoT maps were good, for example. Yeah, they’re tougher than normal level 80 maps, but that’s fine. I don’t mind the extra challenge. Others won’t mind it either. Maps are core to this game. Players will eventually be accustomed to them.

However, I always thought raids were a bad idea. There’s just no way anyone can expect to keep players if you make content for 1% of the playerbase. I’m not against group content, I’m against group content being accessible to the majority.

Looking back, I have to ask: Why was the dungeon team disbanded? It saddens me that dungeon content is non-existent. Yes, at least we have fractals, but…why not dungeons too?

I’m curious about the next expansion, but I will tell you I am NOT gung-ho about it like I was with HoT. Thanks to HoT, pvp and wvw have all but been destroyed.

wow, you are like completely on the other side of the majority o.o Most dont like the Meta maps, where you lietrally can only complete the 1000 mobs with a massive group without any form of challenge (your gear, dmg output really doesnt matter, as long as you survive and dont only press 1).
Most likes the raids, since they are interesting, have a story and real challenging, you have to be very active and your rotations needs to be on point, it is not like solo lupi with a thief (no reflect or clones/minions), but still a real good challenge that does depend on the entire group

I agree on dungeons, but I was one of those who did solo arah p4 with killing all bosses, so the true form of dungeons are rather near and dear to me, and I always hoped that they would create walls/stop people from at least skipping a boss. But thats how it is now, I guess

DeceiverX.8361:

Blaeys.3102:

In my opinion, it can almost all be linked back to how they have chosen to include raids in the game.

So, how did raids change the “identity” of the game? I admit they are only one small piece. They dont really detract from the development of other content. And, they are fairly well done (most of them).

The actual problem comes from the average players’ desire to experience the entire PVE picture – from the ambient creature sitting idly half way through a jumping puzzle to the last boss in the last raid wing.

A year and a half ago, players could experience every element of the PVE game without compromising how they played. Every profession, every build and every stat set was reasonably feasible in every part of the game. And, in the one area where more difficult content was being added (fractals), there was a scaling system.

Raids changed that. For the first time since launch, there was a part of the game that forced players to “optimize” their characters. There was no scaling or any real way for many players to retain their character’s identity and still have a reasonable chance at experiencing the content.

This single change has had huge repercussions in how players perceive the game and the direction it is now going. Now, the only players who get to experience it all are those who are willing to (at least partially) homogenize their builds, stat sets and playstyles.

And that is bad.

NOTE: I do not see challenging content or even raids as bad things in the game. It is definitely needed and fills a much needed niche. It is the lack of scaling (easy, hard mode) that creates this issue. Players who feel excluded from PVE content they perceive as endgame (especially when it relates to story) will grow (are growing and have grown) disillusioned with the game.

+1

This is most notably apparent in WvW which did not have a strict meta except for zergbusting, and even then, defying convention to counter your enemy groups and playing a class well went much further than just the build one played. Sadly, content clearly only problematic in Raid design and PvE has frequently made it to being the PvP formats, and in the case of our elite specs, seem to have been based entirely on PvE encounters from their design.

As of now, the game should just be renamed to Build Wars. I’m very attached to certain styles and aesthetics in every game I play, and often simply just don’t play a game when that isn’t there. GW2 went from absolutely awesome in this regard (being a more competitive player) to just abysmally bad.

The game, particularly on the game-mechanic level with such strict enforcement of build use, is just not as fun. I find myself not wanting to play my characters most times, because they’ll either be absolutely terrible if I choose to play them in a certain way, and absolutely distaste the current optimized builds.

sorry but no, there are 2 different formats, PvE and PvP, the PvP format is depended on the enemy moving (mobile) a lot of different pvp guilds have made it their job to specialize the current meta, and some1 place it as meta (The same goes with GvG, like I am in one, and build is totally different from pvp and pve and ofc PvE) I have been in the most prestige running PvE guilds that tested your ways to encounter lupi, what kind of food, if you took invigoration precision (think it was called something different back in the day)but that healed part of your outgoing dmg, that was the weak way etc /PvP where we trained 3 times per week, we werent the greatest but mic and fight 1v1 is a must….. and GvG now, which you probably already know what requires.

I will put an example, the format to PvE and PvP is completely different. While as an ele in PvE fire/air is the requirement, either staff with fire/air/staff with fire or dagger/Wh with fire air (depends on how big boss are) then its completely different in PvP and GvG, GvG requires you to take earth/water while PvP requires you to take air/earth…..

In conclusion…….I have learned through personal interaction with some of the best in each of their respected groups(pvp,gvg,pve), that even though they might look at each other, they are each testing out the best ability based on their respected play, or they simply would lose since others are not following the format of PvE when in GvG.

ohh and that the best way to learn “specializations” as they are called now, is to solo bosses in arah…for me at least, it really shows the exact dmg output, life gain etc you get from each of them, its almost like it shapes out each and every aspect of the minor/majors you use, and how far you can get with them (what really works best with each individual boss).

Really?
I’m actually baffled at these claims.
The game has evolved to allow each type of player to play how they want. It’s always been a more sandbox MMO. It’s always had harder core options. It’s always had a gear grind. It’s always had people wanting specific things for specific content.

A net has come out publicly against gear inspection to prevent the feeling of being locked out of content. The people in here complaining about raiding being a game mode targeted at harder core players seem to have forgotten that the story parts are mostly experienced AFTER the fights. Those are both intentional design choices to ADD inclusiveness to the system. No other game gives you anything near that.
And the story is always going to be entirely optional/supplemental to the main story.

If you can’t invest 40 hours to the endgame and get yourself geared (if optimally gearing is even important to you) then honestly perhaps raiding isn’t your cup of tea in the first place.

Note: this is all coming from someone who has barely cleared any of the raid bosses and STILL enjoys the content casually and at my own pace.

There is no rush to get world first or better stats or better gear. The rewards you get are purely cosmetic. And any demand you are feeling to need to rush to get all the content done is entirely self-generated. If you’re coming at GW2 from a WoW perspective, then perhaps you’re the one with skewed vision, not the game?

zengara.8301:

JTGuevara.9018:

Gw2 did take a different direction with HoT. Some good, some bad, some disastrous. HoT maps were good, for example. Yeah, they’re tougher than normal level 80 maps, but that’s fine. I don’t mind the extra challenge. Others won’t mind it either. Maps are core to this game. Players will eventually be accustomed to them.

However, I always thought raids were a bad idea. There’s just no way anyone can expect to keep players if you make content for 1% of the playerbase. I’m not against group content, I’m against group content being accessible to the majority.

Looking back, I have to ask: Why was the dungeon team disbanded? It saddens me that dungeon content is non-existent. Yes, at least we have fractals, but…why not dungeons too?

I’m curious about the next expansion, but I will tell you I am NOT gung-ho about it like I was with HoT. Thanks to HoT, pvp and wvw have all but been destroyed.

wow, you are like completely on the other side of the majority o.o Most dont like the Meta maps, where you lietrally can only complete the 1000 mobs with a massive group without any form of challenge (your gear, dmg output really doesnt matter, as long as you survive and dont only press 1).
Most likes the raids, since they are interesting, have a story and real challenging, you have to be very active and your rotations needs to be on point, it is not like solo lupi with a thief (no reflect or clones/minions), but still a real good challenge that does depend on the entire group

I agree on dungeons, but I was one of those who did solo arah p4 with killing all bosses, so the true form of dungeons are rather near and dear to me, and I always hoped that they would create walls/stop people from at least skipping a boss. But thats how it is now, I guess

I don’t know who you’re playing with, but my experience here is the opposite. I don’t think most people want challenging content and I don’t think most people raid. Most people want to feel like they’re accomplishing something with minimal effort on their part, get their rewards and go home. That’s why the AB multimap was so popular.

But I’m relatively sure more people are doing world boss trains than are raiding. Why? Because raiding you have to buy into. You have to invest…time…gold…energy. I’m pretty sure only a small percent of the population raid.

I’m pretty sure lots of people do massive zerg events (which is how they become zerg events in the first place).

As for the identity question, I think Guild Wars 2 has multiple identities depending on your play style.

Also, raids in their current implementation are NOT hard.

Gearing yourself out over time is NOT hard.

There are plenty of people who will take players into raids who are not full ascended. Get your ascended trinkets and literally you’re geared enough to clear all of the bosses.

That people think that part is hard just baffles me.

redux.1502:

Also, raids in their current implementation are NOT hard.

Gearing yourself out over time is NOT hard.

There are plenty of people who will take players into raids who are not full ascended. Get your ascended trinkets and literally you’re geared enough to clear all of the bosses.

That people think that part is hard just baffles me.

You don’t find it hard. I do find it hard. I find it hard to see circles sometimes, because I’m colorbind. I think it’s hard if there’s lag, particularly because I live in Australia, and I’m 55 years old, and my joints don’t work like they did when I was 20.

This attitude of it’s not hard for me so it’s not hard is one of the things that make people resent raiding so much.

Vayne.8563:

redux.1502:

Also, raids in their current implementation are NOT hard.

Gearing yourself out over time is NOT hard.

There are plenty of people who will take players into raids who are not full ascended. Get your ascended trinkets and literally you’re geared enough to clear all of the bosses.

That people think that part is hard just baffles me.

You don’t find it hard. I do find it hard. I find it hard to see circles sometimes, because I’m colorbind. I think it’s hard if there’s lag, particularly because I live in Australia, and I’m 55 years old, and my joints don’t work like they did when I was 20.

This attitude of it’s not hard for me so it’s not hard is one of the things that make people resent raiding so much.

But making an easy mode is the worst possible way to make the game mode more accessible. The sense of love and enjoyment and feeling of success that comes from overcoming raids at their current level of difficulty is so satisfying.
Generating an easy mode sets us on a downward spiral of people only completing the content once and saying “oh, I’ve seen it, I’m pretty much done with it.”
Even if those modes have worse rewards, the impact of the story is gutted when there is no challenge. We saw that all the way through LWS1. There were other things wrong of course. But no, creating an easy mode is NOT the solution. A colorblind option? Sure.

Completing something with minimal effort?

I get that people want to be rewarded but kitten . Is that really what the gaming industry has come to?

redux.1502:

Completing something with minimal effort?

I get that people want to be rewarded but kitten . Is that really what the gaming industry has come to?

Yes, as long the crap is linked to Story Content, because kittening rewards are not everything in this world, that matters.

Orpheal.8263:

redux.1502:

Completing something with minimal effort?

I get that people want to be rewarded but kitten . Is that really what the gaming industry has come to?

Yes, as long the crap is linked to Story Content, because kittening rewards are not everything in this world, that matters.

As I stated above. It is optional. And you can do it after the bosses are cleared with ease. No other game gives the story in raids in such a satisfying AND open way. The bosses do not need to be done BY you to experience the story, so why make them easier? There’s literally no reason to.

redux.1502:

Vayne.8563:

redux.1502:

Also, raids in their current implementation are NOT hard.

Gearing yourself out over time is NOT hard.

There are plenty of people who will take players into raids who are not full ascended. Get your ascended trinkets and literally you’re geared enough to clear all of the bosses.

That people think that part is hard just baffles me.

You don’t find it hard. I do find it hard. I find it hard to see circles sometimes, because I’m colorbind. I think it’s hard if there’s lag, particularly because I live in Australia, and I’m 55 years old, and my joints don’t work like they did when I was 20.

This attitude of it’s not hard for me so it’s not hard is one of the things that make people resent raiding so much.

But making an easy mode is the worst possible way to make the game mode more accessible. The sense of love and enjoyment and feeling of success that comes from overcoming raids at their current level of difficulty is so satisfying.
Generating an easy mode sets us on a downward spiral of people only completing the content once and saying “oh, I’ve seen it, I’m pretty much done with it.”
Even if those modes have worse rewards, the impact of the story is gutted when there is no challenge. We saw that all the way through LWS1. There were other things wrong of course. But no, creating an easy mode is NOT the solution. A colorblind option? Sure.

Regardless of that, not having an easy mode will simply make it so only a small percentage of the playerbase completes that content. It really is too hard for some people. The intensity and amount of practice you need is physically beyond me on most days. So whatever rewards there are there, well, I can’t get them.

But that wasn’t the situation for 3.5 years. In 3.5 years there were only a couple of rewards I couldn’t get. The PvP tournament rewards, and I couldn’t beat Liadri. Everything else I could get. I could get legendaries if I played long enough. But I can’t get legendary armor.

So now this is barred from me and it feels less like a game made for me. That has nothing to do with fair, or how much fun you find it. I’m more disenfranchised. I was doing pretty much everything in PvE and now I can’t. And every time that happens I have to ask myself, is this game still for me.

Worse yet, the percentage of posts now that are raid or PvP posts is much much higher than anything else. So again, I have to question, is this game still for me.

And you don’t really want players like me asking that question because there are probably more casual players than there are raiders.

Vayne.8563:

redux.1502:

Vayne.8563:

redux.1502:

Also, raids in their current implementation are NOT hard.

Gearing yourself out over time is NOT hard.

There are plenty of people who will take players into raids who are not full ascended. Get your ascended trinkets and literally you’re geared enough to clear all of the bosses.

That people think that part is hard just baffles me.

You don’t find it hard. I do find it hard. I find it hard to see circles sometimes, because I’m colorbind. I think it’s hard if there’s lag, particularly because I live in Australia, and I’m 55 years old, and my joints don’t work like they did when I was 20.

This attitude of it’s not hard for me so it’s not hard is one of the things that make people resent raiding so much.

But making an easy mode is the worst possible way to make the game mode more accessible. The sense of love and enjoyment and feeling of success that comes from overcoming raids at their current level of difficulty is so satisfying.
Generating an easy mode sets us on a downward spiral of people only completing the content once and saying “oh, I’ve seen it, I’m pretty much done with it.”
Even if those modes have worse rewards, the impact of the story is gutted when there is no challenge. We saw that all the way through LWS1. There were other things wrong of course. But no, creating an easy mode is NOT the solution. A colorblind option? Sure.

Regardless of that, not having an easy mode will simply make it so only a small percentage of the playerbase completes that content. It really is too hard for some people. The intensity and amount of practice you need is physically beyond me on most days. So whatever rewards there are there, well, I can’t get them.

But that wasn’t the situation for 3.5 years. In 3.5 years there were only a couple of rewards I couldn’t get. The PvP tournament rewards, and I couldn’t beat Liadri. Everything else I could get. I could get legendaries if I played long enough. But I can’t get legendary armor.

So now this is barred from me and it feels less like a game made for me. That has nothing to do with fair, or how much fun you find it. I’m more disenfranchised. I was doing pretty much everything in PvE and now I can’t. And every time that happens I have to ask myself, is this game still for me.

Worse yet, the percentage of posts now that are raid or PvP posts is much much higher than anything else. So again, I have to question, is this game still for me.

And you don’t really want players like me asking that question because there are probably more casual players than there are raiders.

But my question is this: WHY are you barred from it?
What can they do besides an easy mode to make it more accessible?
What improvements to LFG can they make?
Should they release raid guide videos for the community that you can study?
Is there something OTHER than easy mode? Because easy mode is the one option that takes fun from one group and gives it all over to another. While apparently in the current state only the “hardcore” group is having fun.
There has got to be a middle ground.

redux.1502:

Vayne.8563:

redux.1502:

Also, raids in their current implementation are NOT hard.

Gearing yourself out over time is NOT hard.

There are plenty of people who will take players into raids who are not full ascended. Get your ascended trinkets and literally you’re geared enough to clear all of the bosses.

That people think that part is hard just baffles me.

You don’t find it hard. I do find it hard. I find it hard to see circles sometimes, because I’m colorbind. I think it’s hard if there’s lag, particularly because I live in Australia, and I’m 55 years old, and my joints don’t work like they did when I was 20.

This attitude of it’s not hard for me so it’s not hard is one of the things that make people resent raiding so much.

But making an easy mode is the worst possible way to make the game mode more accessible. The sense of love and enjoyment and feeling of success that comes from overcoming raids at their current level of difficulty is so satisfying.
Generating an easy mode sets us on a downward spiral of people only completing the content once and saying “oh, I’ve seen it, I’m pretty much done with it.”
Even if those modes have worse rewards, the impact of the story is gutted when there is no challenge. We saw that all the way through LWS1. There were other things wrong of course. But no, creating an easy mode is NOT the solution. A colorblind option? Sure.

If people played an “easy mode” of a raid and be done with it, wouldn’t they belong to a player group which the dedicated raiders wouldn’t want to “have” anyway? Most people seem to complain – ignoring rewards – about raids for being connected to the overall story, instead of raids having their independent (epic) one. I’m certainly not a “normal” player, nor in an MMOs target group, but I can get the same amount of fun from a story no matter how easy the encounter is. And while I don’t particulary care about raids as a whole anymore, I’d see no problems with a true story-mode (or an in-game spectator mode) without any kind of rewards so that it cannot be abused.

As for the overall identity question: I agree about the complaint about the Mastery grind. It may appear to be not tedious for people who love running meta events in HoT for most of their available gaming times, but personally it feels like a drag to get around 20k (without boosters) per event and need around 3,000,000+ experience. Whereas the Magic-thingy mastery in LS only requires a constant 508k per rank and you could feel a (larger) sense of progression with the 20k received. But to be fair, I don’t know if the different metas in HoT offer different amount of exp (i.e. TD offering more than, AB or VB).

redux.1502:

Vayne.8563:

redux.1502:

Vayne.8563:

redux.1502:

Also, raids in their current implementation are NOT hard.

Gearing yourself out over time is NOT hard.

There are plenty of people who will take players into raids who are not full ascended. Get your ascended trinkets and literally you’re geared enough to clear all of the bosses.

That people think that part is hard just baffles me.

You don’t find it hard. I do find it hard. I find it hard to see circles sometimes, because I’m colorbind. I think it’s hard if there’s lag, particularly because I live in Australia, and I’m 55 years old, and my joints don’t work like they did when I was 20.

This attitude of it’s not hard for me so it’s not hard is one of the things that make people resent raiding so much.

But making an easy mode is the worst possible way to make the game mode more accessible. The sense of love and enjoyment and feeling of success that comes from overcoming raids at their current level of difficulty is so satisfying.
Generating an easy mode sets us on a downward spiral of people only completing the content once and saying “oh, I’ve seen it, I’m pretty much done with it.”
Even if those modes have worse rewards, the impact of the story is gutted when there is no challenge. We saw that all the way through LWS1. There were other things wrong of course. But no, creating an easy mode is NOT the solution. A colorblind option? Sure.

Regardless of that, not having an easy mode will simply make it so only a small percentage of the playerbase completes that content. It really is too hard for some people. The intensity and amount of practice you need is physically beyond me on most days. So whatever rewards there are there, well, I can’t get them.

But that wasn’t the situation for 3.5 years. In 3.5 years there were only a couple of rewards I couldn’t get. The PvP tournament rewards, and I couldn’t beat Liadri. Everything else I could get. I could get legendaries if I played long enough. But I can’t get legendary armor.

So now this is barred from me and it feels less like a game made for me. That has nothing to do with fair, or how much fun you find it. I’m more disenfranchised. I was doing pretty much everything in PvE and now I can’t. And every time that happens I have to ask myself, is this game still for me.

Worse yet, the percentage of posts now that are raid or PvP posts is much much higher than anything else. So again, I have to question, is this game still for me.

And you don’t really want players like me asking that question because there are probably more casual players than there are raiders.

But my question is this: WHY are you barred from it?
What can they do besides an easy mode to make it more accessible?
What improvements to LFG can they make?
Should they release raid guide videos for the community that you can study?
Is there something OTHER than easy mode? Because easy mode is the one option that takes fun from one group and gives it all over to another. While apparently in the current state only the “hardcore” group is having fun.
There has got to be a middle ground.

Look, let’s pretend, for argument sake, that I hate cooking. I don’t enjoy cooking. I don’t like to cook. And for years, I could play this game and get all the rewards without having to cook. You like challenging content that you have to work through and I don’t. It’s that simple. Could I if i had a gun to my head? Sure. But if you pay for one game, and you’re getting a different game, then that’s why people are saying the game is losing it’s identity.

I’ve gone back to the basics and I’m doing the stuff I enjoy now, playing the way I enjoy playing. Playing the way I always played and I’m having more fun than I did when I was trying to do PvP tournments and trying to raid.

Raids DID NOT exist in the game I bought. Anet didn’t talk about them. A big percentage of the reason I came to this game was because it didn’t have raids, and all the stuff that comes along with raids. Now that raids are here, I’m less comfortable.

What’s stopping me from participating in raids. I think they’re a pointless, waste of time. I don’t enjoy them. They’re not fun for me. That’s what’s stopping me.

Maybe other people buy games to do stuff they don’t enjoy to get rewards. I’m not one of those people, even though I tried to be for a while. And I was starting to hate the game because of it.

PvP almost drove me from this game. If I started raiding, I’d be gone in months. Completely gone. That’s what’s stopping me from raiding.

redux.1502:

Orpheal.8263:

redux.1502:

Completing something with minimal effort?

I get that people want to be rewarded but kitten . Is that really what the gaming industry has come to?

Yes, as long the crap is linked to Story Content, because kittening rewards are not everything in this world, that matters.

As I stated above. It is optional. And you can do it after the bosses are cleared with ease. No other game gives the story in raids in such a satisfying AND open way. The bosses do not need to be done BY you to experience the story, so why make them easier? There’s literally no reason to.

Simply because people don’t want to be dependant on OTHERS to do the job for them, just to that they are able to experience the story part.

Your argument is a very cheap excuse for Anets bad game design around the Raids, because in an optimal Game Design there would exist various Game Modes in Raids for just both types of players, without that one side is by design dependant on anyone else!

Dungeons also provide a seperate “Story Mode”.
There is absolutely NO reason for it, why Raids can’t have this too as well.
A Story Mode also hasn’t to mean that ENemies have to be made extra for it easier – it would be already just enough, if that Story Mode has No kittened DPS pressure mechanics built in, so that this Mode gives people the chance, without being dependant on helpful other people to practice them, without that there is any stupid included pressure in the run.

That would open up for this mode then also the chance for all players and their prefered classes to be taken with the group, because then don’t have the people to look after perfect DPS from anyone anymore, just so that the run has a chance to be successful and not to be a waste of time for 10 persons.

[/quote]

wow, you are like completely on the other side of the majority o.o Most dont like the Meta maps, where you lietrally can only complete the 1000 mobs with a massive group without any form of challenge (your gear, dmg output really doesnt matter, as long as you survive and dont only press 1).
Most likes the raids, since they are interesting, have a story and real challenging, you have to be very active and your rotations needs to be on point, it is not like solo lupi with a thief (no reflect or clones/minions), but still a real good challenge that does depend on the entire group

I agree on dungeons, but I was one of those who did solo arah p4 with killing all bosses, so the true form of dungeons are rather near and dear to me, and I always hoped that they would create walls/stop people from at least skipping a boss. But thats how it is now, I guess[/quote]

I don’t know who you’re playing with, but my experience here is the opposite. I don’t think most people want challenging content and I don’t think most people raid. Most people want to feel like they’re accomplishing something with minimal effort on their part, get their rewards and go home. That’s why the AB multimap was so popular.

But I’m relatively sure more people are doing world boss trains than are raiding. Why? Because raiding you have to buy into. You have to invest…time…gold…energy. I’m pretty sure only a small percent of the population raid.

I’m pretty sure lots of people do massive zerg events (which is how they become zerg events in the first place).

As for the identity question, I think Guild Wars 2 has multiple identities depending on your play style.[/quote]

Actually the raiding seems to be the most active in LFG atm at least, every twitch streamer is doign it etc. I am again a completely other part of the game than you, I am diamon in Sc2 because it really requires skill, literal skill and not just press w/e to win. I do know that the game is taking alternative reactions towards not being that active, but playing a game and then expect not to be active is different………I want to make it clear that there are a major difference in grinding and in skill required actions when you are “active” as I put it. I could go down to the, you need to actually press x x key within x x second or dead etc, but you prob get the gesture.

The idea is, the more times go, the more people get to know game etc which makes it easiere, and therefor needs something that is more suited to the experience, walking around LA and doing the same dungeon you have completed and the same Lupi you have killed soloed over 200 times (no I am not kidding) gets boring….easiere, the same over and over, and personally a huge grind hater, I can literally not play games with grind where the grind requires me to somehow be a mindless zombie that is not making me think, I dont think I might have adhd or something, there is just something that just makes me somehow sick/annoyed/angry when doing the same boring easy task over and over. I honest to god, believed that people where simply faking or lying when saying that they wanted something as boring as meta maps, or likes to play BDO, either that, or they forced themselves through the mindnumbing grind to achieve something to play, because they might have gotten tired of every other mmo they have played……Though I do get now, some people actually likes that

A good example is in training. If you work on 1 machine for 2 months for your shoulders, you will be able to lift that with immensely higher weight, since your mind will find the least needed requirement to go from point a to b (side to side), though if you work on another training set, lets say without any machine (up to down), you will have trouble, since suddenly this is new for you (actually just found out yesterday, when I tried something new with shoulders, and saw that I went from 60-65 KG to 10-20 KG just from switching to another set even though working on the same muscle) It is quiet clear that the mind and body will quickly learn the easy route to success, and make that easy, and therefor they are simply needing to make it harder.

Besides, a group of 6-7 people have already killed several bosses, and arah was at a point also “unreasonably hard” until everyone did it, again and again etkittenil it was easy and people forgot how hard it was.

Orpheal.8263:

redux.1502:

Orpheal.8263:

redux.1502:

Completing something with minimal effort?

I get that people want to be rewarded but kitten . Is that really what the gaming industry has come to?

Yes, as long the crap is linked to Story Content, because kittening rewards are not everything in this world, that matters.

As I stated above. It is optional. And you can do it after the bosses are cleared with ease. No other game gives the story in raids in such a satisfying AND open way. The bosses do not need to be done BY you to experience the story, so why make them easier? There’s literally no reason to.

Simply because people don’t want to be dependant on OTHERS to do the job for them, just to that they are able to experience the story part.

Your argument is a very cheap excuse for Anets bad game design around the Raids, because in an optimal Game Design there would exist various Game Modes in Raids for just both types of players, without that one side is by design dependant on anyone else!

Dungeons also provide a seperate “Story Mode”.
There is absolutely NO reason for it, why Raids can’t have this too as well.
A Story Mode also hasn’t to mean that ENemies have to be made extra for it easier – it would be already just enough, if that Story Mode has No kittened DPS pressure mechanics built in, so that this Mode gives people the chance, without being dependant on helpful other people to practice them, without that there is any stupid included pressure in the run.

That would open up for this mode then also the chance for all players and their prefered classes to be taken with the group, because then don’t have the people to look after perfect DPS from anyone anymore, just so that the run has a chance to be successful and not to be a waste of time for 10 persons.

Well, but how about making the Raids easy so any pug group can make them (maybe just as hard as dungeons, less dps from boss, less health on boss and maybe even no timer etc) but no LI, 1/3 magnetic shard and no purple gear or drops that cost more than 5g?

@Zengara

If you think raiding is bigger because twitch streamers stream it, you’re missing the point. A huge number of people solo MMOs. Not a few. A lot. How do we know? We’ve heard it from devs for years. We see it in forum and reddit posts. A lot of people solo.

Most people who solo don’t stream on twitch and if they did it would be boring to watch anyway. But I guarantee you less than 25% of the players of this game actively raid, or have ever beaten a raid and it’s most likely a much smaller group than that.

Same with LFG> If you’re a solo player you NEVER have to post a listing to LFG. With raiding you pretty much do.

So I’m looking at raids LFG right this second and there are 4 groups raiding, one of who is selling.

Four groups in LFG is 40 people raiding in pugs at this minute, or will be when those groups fills.

Compare that to the 40 people I just saw running around in a leather farm in Lake Doric.

I guarantee you no one is streaming the leather farm. And though it is on LFG, it’s 50 people, which would be one listing, instead of five raid groups. That single listing takes care of more people than all four raid posts put together.

The devs have said straight out only a small percentage of people will ever beat a raid. I can’t see why they’d lie about it.

zengara.8301:

Orpheal.8263:

redux.1502:

Orpheal.8263:

redux.1502:

Completing something with minimal effort?

I get that people want to be rewarded but kitten . Is that really what the gaming industry has come to?

Yes, as long the crap is linked to Story Content, because kittening rewards are not everything in this world, that matters.

As I stated above. It is optional. And you can do it after the bosses are cleared with ease. No other game gives the story in raids in such a satisfying AND open way. The bosses do not need to be done BY you to experience the story, so why make them easier? There’s literally no reason to.

Simply because people don’t want to be dependant on OTHERS to do the job for them, just to that they are able to experience the story part.

Your argument is a very cheap excuse for Anets bad game design around the Raids, because in an optimal Game Design there would exist various Game Modes in Raids for just both types of players, without that one side is by design dependant on anyone else!

Dungeons also provide a seperate “Story Mode”.
There is absolutely NO reason for it, why Raids can’t have this too as well.
A Story Mode also hasn’t to mean that ENemies have to be made extra for it easier – it would be already just enough, if that Story Mode has No kittened DPS pressure mechanics built in, so that this Mode gives people the chance, without being dependant on helpful other people to practice them, without that there is any stupid included pressure in the run.

That would open up for this mode then also the chance for all players and their prefered classes to be taken with the group, because then don’t have the people to look after perfect DPS from anyone anymore, just so that the run has a chance to be successful and not to be a waste of time for 10 persons.

Well, but how about making the Raids easy so any pug group can make them (maybe just as hard as dungeons, less dps from boss, less health on boss and maybe even no timer etc) but no LI, 1/3 magnetic shard and no purple gear or drops that cost more than 5g?

Would be all fine to me, and I’m sure also alot of other players, that would like to be able just to experience and practice the raids, without that there is any pressure by game design in the run.
Even if that means massively decreased or maybe no rewards at all, because as like I said, rewards are not everything that matters in a game.

If I want rewards, I can do play Raids in the normal mode, but people should have first at least the chance to get to know the raids in an easier environment without pressure, so that they can practive them, until they feel beign ready for them to play them on normal mode

@Vayne, well, based on that assumption, I can also tell you that there are at least 3 known guilds I personally know running raids right now, which is from my personal group, not some people I tried looking for, I am genuinely are saying that you can not define math nor the population by including and excluding based on your preference, nor is taking 1 thing (LFG) and using that thing to exploit it, which is my bad, I should have also taken in the account of people who are not “pugs” from both sides, I am not a politician, but a person online trying to explain raids are good, not trying to lie to your face….. But yeah around 6-7 groups on LFG are doing it now.

But for this instance, lets say that I accept this rather unknown suggestion that since “I am not playing it, nobody is ideology”.

I am literally trying to figure out why you like meta maps, I simply and genuinely dont get it, you want to play alone, but want 30-50 people redo the same task that requires nothing of you, but do not like the ideology of depending on others. I am not critiquing you, I am literally and honestly just lost on this ideology

As I said, I like, Raiding, GvG and solo runs, I absolutely hate meta maps, the only thing I do in a meta map is complete it so I can watch how it looks like, like with dragons stand.
Have done that a few times to see the map, I dont even do the achievements unless everyone is running to them, I like to watch the world and killing the boss, it is pretty easy tho, so have again only done it a few times, I dont really care for cosmetics at all, have not changed look for over a year, unless if it is something like shattere holographic wings, but………Please explain, so I can understand your thoughts, they just seem, rather unknown to me.

Orpheal.8263:

zengara.8301:

Orpheal.8263:

redux.1502:

Orpheal.8263:

redux.1502:

Completing something with minimal effort?

I get that people want to be rewarded but kitten . Is that really what the gaming industry has come to?

Yes, as long the crap is linked to Story Content, because kittening rewards are not everything in this world, that matters.

As I stated above. It is optional. And you can do it after the bosses are cleared with ease. No other game gives the story in raids in such a satisfying AND open way. The bosses do not need to be done BY you to experience the story, so why make them easier? There’s literally no reason to.

Simply because people don’t want to be dependant on OTHERS to do the job for them, just to that they are able to experience the story part.

Your argument is a very cheap excuse for Anets bad game design around the Raids, because in an optimal Game Design there would exist various Game Modes in Raids for just both types of players, without that one side is by design dependant on anyone else!

Dungeons also provide a seperate “Story Mode”.
There is absolutely NO reason for it, why Raids can’t have this too as well.
A Story Mode also hasn’t to mean that ENemies have to be made extra for it easier – it would be already just enough, if that Story Mode has No kittened DPS pressure mechanics built in, so that this Mode gives people the chance, without being dependant on helpful other people to practice them, without that there is any stupid included pressure in the run.

That would open up for this mode then also the chance for all players and their prefered classes to be taken with the group, because then don’t have the people to look after perfect DPS from anyone anymore, just so that the run has a chance to be successful and not to be a waste of time for 10 persons.

Well, but how about making the Raids easy so any pug group can make them (maybe just as hard as dungeons, less dps from boss, less health on boss and maybe even no timer etc) but no LI, 1/3 magnetic shard and no purple gear or drops that cost more than 5g?

Would be all fine to me, and I’m sure also alot of other players, that would like to be able just to experience and practice the raids, without that there is any pressure by game design in the run.
Even if that means massively decreased or maybe no rewards at all, because as like I said, rewards are not everything that matters in a game.

If I want rewards, I can do play Raids in the normal mode, but people should have first at least the chance to get to know the raids in an easier environment without pressure, so that they can practive them, until they feel beign ready for them to play them on normal mode

I can agree on that, there are truely no que in Gw2 which bothers me a whole lot. And the practice runs are meant to end in failure before they experience the boss, only way for a noob to practice is with a group of dedicated players, which means they will probably still lose if just 2-3 are new. A “practice raid” with a minority rewards would change raiding for the better

zengara.8301:

@Vayne, well, based on that assumption, I can also tell you that there are at least 3 known guilds I personally know running raids right now, which is from my personal group, not some people I tried looking for, I am genuinely are saying that you can not define math nor the population by including and excluding based on your preference, nor is taking 1 thing (LFG) and using that thing to exploit it, which is my bad, I should have also taken in the account of people who are not “pugs” from both sides, I am not a politician, but a person online trying to explain raids are good, not trying to lie to your face….. But yeah around 6-7 groups on LFG are doing it now.

But for this instance, lets say that I accept this rather unknown suggestion that since “I am not playing it, nobody is ideology”.

I am literally trying to figure out why you like meta maps, I simply and genuinely dont get it, you want to play alone, but want 30-50 people redo the same task that requires nothing of you, but do not like the ideology of depending on others. I am not critiquing you, I am literally and honestly just lost on this ideology

As I said, I like, Raiding, GvG and solo runs, I absolutely hate meta maps, the only thing I do in a meta map is complete it so I can watch how it looks like, like with dragons stand.
Have done that a few times to see the map, I dont even do the achievements unless everyone is running to them, I like to watch the world and killing the boss, it is pretty easy tho, so have again only done it a few times, I dont really care for cosmetics at all, have not changed look for over a year, unless if it is something like shattere holographic wings, but………Please explain, so I can understand your thoughts, they just seem, rather unknown to me.

It’s common knowledge that there’s a huge number of people who solo MMOs. This isn’t some guess on my part. It’s not some magic thing. These things have been known for years.

Scott Hartsman who was the lead designer of Rift said straight out that developers who ignore the solo players are looking for trouble (paraphrasing here, but he said it). The original FAQ for Guild Wars 2 had an entire question about solo play. There’s nothing to explain.

Again, the devs have said straight out that the majority of people won’t ever beat a raid. Not that many people raid in any game.

In fact we heard a dev that left lotro not long ago that said that only 10% of the game’s population ever raided, though 50% of the forum posts were by raiders.

This is just stuff we’ve known for years. I’m not sure what part you’re finding hard to believe.

And because so many casuals came to this game to bang around the open world, without running dungeons or fractals even, to them it feels like HOT has a different identity than the core game.

Orpheal.8263:

Simply because people don’t want to be dependant on OTHERS to do the job for them, just to that they are able to experience the story part.

Your argument is a very cheap excuse for Anets bad game design around the Raids, because in an optimal Game Design there would exist various Game Modes in Raids for just both types of players, without that one side is by design dependant on anyone else!

No in optimal game design there is content for almost every difficulty level and designed around that and not everything in 4 difficulties with less content in the end.

Dungeons also provide a seperate “Story Mode”.
There is absolutely NO reason for it, why Raids can’t have this too as well.
A Story Mode also hasn’t to mean that ENemies have to be made extra for it easier – it would be already just enough, if that Story Mode has No kittened DPS pressure mechanics built in, so that this Mode gives people the chance, without being dependant on helpful other people to practice them, without that there is any stupid included pressure in the run.

The dungeon story modes have nothing to do with the stories that the explorables path tell. There is no DPS pressure. Most enrage timers are big enough even for very low DPS groups. If you want to focus on mechanics to learn it just do it. Easy modes teach you nothing other than to succeed with the wrong tactics.

That would open up for this mode then also the chance for all players and their prefered classes to be taken with the group, because then don’t have the people to look after perfect DPS from anyone anymore, just so that the run has a chance to be successful and not to be a waste of time for 10 persons.

DPS is close together since the last balance patch. Every class can be played. Every class != every build.

Orpheal.8263:

redux.1502:

Orpheal.8263:

redux.1502:

Completing something with minimal effort?

I get that people want to be rewarded but kitten . Is that really what the gaming industry has come to?

Yes, as long the crap is linked to Story Content, because kittening rewards are not everything in this world, that matters.

As I stated above. It is optional. And you can do it after the bosses are cleared with ease. No other game gives the story in raids in such a satisfying AND open way. The bosses do not need to be done BY you to experience the story, so why make them easier? There’s literally no reason to.

Simply because people don’t want to be dependant on OTHERS to do the job for them, just to that they are able to experience the story part.

Your argument is a very cheap excuse for Anets bad game design around the Raids, because in an optimal Game Design there would exist various Game Modes in Raids for just both types of players, without that one side is by design dependant on anyone else!

Dungeons also provide a seperate “Story Mode”.
There is absolutely NO reason for it, why Raids can’t have this too as well.
A Story Mode also hasn’t to mean that ENemies have to be made extra for it easier – it would be already just enough, if that Story Mode has No kittened DPS pressure mechanics built in, so that this Mode gives people the chance, without being dependant on helpful other people to practice them, without that there is any stupid included pressure in the run.

That would open up for this mode then also the chance for all players and their prefered classes to be taken with the group, because then don’t have the people to look after perfect DPS from anyone anymore, just so that the run has a chance to be successful and not to be a waste of time for 10 persons.

No no no no.
I’m sorry but if you’re expecting an MMO to be completely done on your own for all content, you’re in the wrong genre. It’s fine to play some things on your own but the point of an MMO is to interact with others to finish and complete objectives. That’s where community and relationships are built.

The current raid model has the raid team stressed/working hard already. You expect that small team to add on more workload and make the raids come more infrequently by designing, testing, and bug fixing yet another mode? Don’t get me wrong, I get that your argument is that it doesn’t have to be much different, but ANY changes to a game mode will take a lot of extra time. Which has the potential to decrease the QUALITY of the content.

I will say it as my final peace on this matter: Those wishing for “easy” mode want quantity and more reward for less effort. Those who want things as they are are more focused on quality storytelling with fantastic encounter design. And I will argue to the moon and back that the latter is better in all respects. The “give me more” mentality (yes in regards to OPTIONAL story) is ridiculously over-fantasized about in this community.

“Challenging group content.” That was the vision for raids. And adding that to the game is NOT wrong or a change in the entire game’s direction. Living Story and Fractals are more than rewarding enough for those who don’t wish to raid.

And to be perfectly frank, if you don’t want to raid, then don’t. And allow those of us who do to enjoy the content as-is.

There CAN be a middle ground/more accessibility provided – perhaps even to legendary armor in the long term. But an “easy” or “story” mode is not the answer.

@Mielyn

Please don’t exaggerate things now here . Nobody is asking for it here that Raids should be split up into like 4 different modes, thats pure nonsense.
Giving Raids some kind of practice Mode also doesn’t lessen the contant, again pure nonsense, its in fact even the complete opposite.
Giving Raids a Practice Mode besides of its Normal (or eventually on top of that perhaps even a Hard Mode) would give ANet even the chance to extend the content of Raids with unique rewards and achievements that come by the Hard Mode, for those that seek out for the higher challenge and which think, the DPS pressure isn’t enough for them to make Raids challenging.
If you still believe, giving Raids more Difficulty Settings will “lower” magically out of nowhere their amount of content they offer, then please explain that in more details, instead of thowign just only this wild assumption into the room with none to make your argumentation better understandable, unless you even have arguements and just don’t make only unfounded presumptions.

Sure, Story Mode in Dungeons doesn’t decide over the rewards, or the difficulty of the content from the Dungeons, but that example was just meant to show, that it is possible for Anet to make for content like Raids different modes, because Anet has already done that for an instanced similar part of the game, because technically are Raids nothing else.
They are just for 10 person designed Dungeons without a Path System with more difficult designed bosses and a DPS pressuce mechanic to make them on top of that more artificially difficult.
A practice mode lets a group of players learn the content, without DPS pressure as they don’t have to rush things in the instance, just so thast they have enough time for the last boss.
You know, why people haste DPS pressures from ticking down timers?
Because they don’t allow you to make breaks, that kind of content is it which creates elitism and peopel expectign from you to play your class perfect, to know everything perfect – mistakes are not alowed – kick – too less DPS is not wanted – kick – wrong class played – kick – not good enough group support – kick.

If you want to be part of that content, you are forced to be dependant either of others, or you are forced to play an other class, which is able to fulfill the requirements that peopel want to take you with them, as long there is DPS pressure.
People which protect this kind of very bad player behaviour shouldn’t be those that Anet should listen to, as it are most likely only those kind of super elitists which fear only that Anet might make any “changes” onto their beloved new game mode that could make raids more accessible to a large crowd of players over time, so that they can’t be anymore those special snowflakes in their elitist clique that can hold their noses high into the sky.

If Anet would have truly the interest to make their Game better for alot of playrs, they would simply add a Practice Mode to Raid, as that woudl be a true win/win for everyone.
People which want to just get a first foot into the Raid Content can do that with the practice mode then easily, without disturbing those players that play only for efficiency and rewards and for those that play only for rewards will CHANGE NOTHING, other then that they don’t will have to do in LFG anymore so much with Raid Newbies..because anyone that is confident enough to search in LFG for NM Raid Groups will then surely have enough experience with that Raid due to having at least made some practice runs before to be able to know its mechanics.
People then have to search not anymore blindly for helpful persons, that are just willing to takem them with them into the Raid, despite of them being inexperienced, or not playing the right build, or theright classes ect. pp

Thats a simply fact. End of discussion

DPS might be now closer together perhaps, but still not the massive class design discrepancies for Raids, when it comes down to builds and usefulness for a group, due to for example the Thief being by far not so good as alternative when it comes down to Group Support, like for example a Guardian, a Chronomancer, a Herald or an Elementalist, which provide all similar DPS, but are at the same time much more useful for the whole Raid Group.
This is the final step that Anet has to look on, if they seriously intent to make raids more accessible for everyone, if they don’t want to make a Practice Mode.

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

Blaeys.3102:

Raids changed that. For the first time since launch, there was a part of the game that forced players to “optimize” their characters. There was no scaling or any real way for many players to retain their character’s identity and still have a reasonable chance at experiencing the content.

Sorry, that’s just inaccurate. People felt just as forced to “optimize” to PUG dungeons in the early days. Zerk or bust.

Raids were designed for the sort of people who care about learning mechanics are doing the best they can. There’s still a huge variety of builds & comps that can complete raids. People sometimes don’t realize it because QT has been incredibly quick about publishing the optimal builds.

But beyond that, raids are such a tiny fractal of the content in the game, why obsess about it like it’s affected the overall direction of the game, which is what this thread is about. It’s a single game mode, that isn’t required for anything except skins & bragging rights.

Sure, Raids are a change to the game; they aren’t an indicator of an identity change.

Well, I would say that with dungeons you really don’t need to worry too much about gear and rotations. To say that that goes to the same lengths as it does with raids is just not true. There was some optimisation, sure, but there’s alot of difference between the two if you’re at least a bit honest there.

Raids are indeed a small part of the game, but before basically everything had some notion of casualness. To then bar the slightest thing off from the average player, that does make some impact. More for some than for others, obviously.

Not that this is the first “identity change” GW2 did though. The same happened when the switch from one time events to repeatable story. And obviously it change again with HoT and then LW3. Although, with that being locked behind HoT it probably doesn’t mean much to those who didnt like or bought HoT.

Personally my favourite time was with season 1 and 2 where it mixed changing core maps with repeatable story. These days they just pick the easy route of having an additional map that takes place later in time. Seems logical because of changing maps being hard work as well as making it harder for new players to catch up. But to me that definitely made the world more interesting than just another map with some stuff in that will stay the same forever. It basically lost some immersion by killing the whole concept that the event youre playing today might be different tomorrow. It spoke to my imagination to what might change or not, now knowing it never will just makes it more the same to every other MMO (in regards to world immersion/progress at least)

But yeah, my point being, it’s usually a very personal connection between player and game. For one it’s a natural progression and the ID didnt change much for others its more impactful.

Vayne.8563:

Raids DID NOT exist in the game I bought. Anet didn’t talk about them. A big percentage of the reason I came to this game was because it didn’t have raids, and all the stuff that comes along with raids. Now that raids are here, I’m less comfortable.

What’s stopping me from participating in raids. I think they’re a pointless, waste of time. I don’t enjoy them. They’re not fun for me. That’s what’s stopping me.

In fact Anet advertised GW2 to :
-not have a need for a healing class since everyone could heal themself
-classes to be flexible so that there would not be “roles”
-have dungeons that would not require player to spend hours while trying to find group (basiclly jump-in whenever you like)
-WVW stuff
-and a world for EVERYONE to explore no matter of class or gear

Overall it was advertised like a new era MMO with all those annoying relics from every possible generic MMO taken out.

Those promises made me and my friend to obtain GW2 in the first place, we were tired with other generic MMOs where all those things were.

Now looking at GW2 i feel cheated because all of those went through the window with raid – you need to invest a lot of time to learn the raid, finding party to beat it (yes, beat it and not only to try) takes a lot of time, you need to have specific class AND gear and it’s NOT for everyone – it’s for a minority.

And no, guild does guarantee you nothing – if a guild has 100 people in it from the same timezone you have chance to be picked for a raid group 1:100 and only if you have a class they need at the moment and proper gear.

I’ve beaten raid but it was so frustrating that it reminded me of Starcraft back when i’ve played it on multi with all its micro-ing. I’ll never, ever gonna to bother again to do it. Ever. Unless they pay me REAL money for all that work.

Miellyn.6847:

Orpheal.8263:

Simply because people don’t want to be dependant on OTHERS to do the job for them, just to that they are able to experience the story part.

Your argument is a very cheap excuse for Anets bad game design around the Raids, because in an optimal Game Design there would exist various Game Modes in Raids for just both types of players, without that one side is by design dependant on anyone else!

No in optimal game design there is content for almost every difficulty level and designed around that and not everything in 4 difficulties with less content in the end.

Dungeons also provide a seperate “Story Mode”.
There is absolutely NO reason for it, why Raids can’t have this too as well.
A Story Mode also hasn’t to mean that ENemies have to be made extra for it easier – it would be already just enough, if that Story Mode has No kittened DPS pressure mechanics built in, so that this Mode gives people the chance, without being dependant on helpful other people to practice them, without that there is any stupid included pressure in the run.

The dungeon story modes have nothing to do with the stories that the explorables path tell. There is no DPS pressure. Most enrage timers are big enough even for very low DPS groups. If you want to focus on mechanics to learn it just do it. Easy modes teach you nothing other than to succeed with the wrong tactics.

That would open up for this mode then also the chance for all players and their prefered classes to be taken with the group, because then don’t have the people to look after perfect DPS from anyone anymore, just so that the run has a chance to be successful and not to be a waste of time for 10 persons.

DPS is close together since the last balance patch. Every class can be played. Every class != every build.

As a Mesmer main I just can’t let that statment stand things will never improve for my class if peopel are running around with rossey glasses saying everything is perfect and fine when in fact things are burning and in desperate need for repair. Mesmers aren’t taken for DPS and are in fact kicked for being anything else but support.

Mesmers are fundamentally broken from the ground up we have to work twice as hard as the other classes to get any sort of decent numbers and even then were at the back of the pack. We toss tons of confusion and torment but at the same time are loaded with slows, stuns, and interrupts which complete counter those condition. We don’t have condi elite and our only elite that does dmg has a CC so long is reduces the dmg done by our confusion/torment since their not moving or attacking. Other classes click a button for instant dps and action but a mesmer has to click a button to create a resource then that resource has to survive have its own CD’s and another button has to be pressed to use(shatter) that resource which move slower than other class projectiles to the target unless traited. In pvp were balanced around a single skill Moa and everywhere else were balanced around a single mechanic alacrity. Were the most reliant on our F1 skills and the most dependant on our elite specialization granting us the lowest class diversity.

The last balance patch was water that raised all classes but didn’t address there standings an issues.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/5wbgt6/qt_updated_benchmarks_for_all_classes_february_22/

With all those builds every class has a build that appears above even multiple times above the highest dps output for my main class. The necro wasn’t calculated at the time so their not mentioned outside of the info that they didn’t have time to calculate them but Necro’s have the easiest time with PVE content while mesmers have the worst not like Confusion or torment was ever designed for slow moving and attacking world/raid mobs anyway.

The DPS is all over the place and classes will and are kicked the primary goal of and reasoning behind the request for different difficulty tiers has nothing to do with actual difficulty. But rather everything to do with shoveling toxic elitist players with their dps meters out of the mass of players who simply want to have fun. Giving them an elitist cesspool in some higher difficulty were others can learn to enjoy the mode and move their way deeper into it if they want. Which doesn’t happen that well when mesmers and other classes are neglected because of the variances of their output and the push for 1% elitism. Dungeons thrived because story mode was a none toxic place people could learn to appreciate the mode while raids have no such thing at all.

Orpheal.8263:

….

Ressources are finite. Take some for difficulties and they disappear on other content. Slower content productions is also less content.
Dungeons don’t have difficulties they have different paths in the same area. Something completely different. A training mode would be the same in a different instance.
The example you want is fractals and fractal development is slow. They said implementing a new difficulty is almost the same work as a new instance. I rather take the new instance instead of another difficulty.

Mechanics get added over time during the boss fights. There is your training mode. Just ignore the timer, get better at the mechanics and the damage will be enough unless you run 10 builds with zero offense.

There are guilds that are dedicated to train people for raids. Everything is there all you need is to show some effort that you actually want to raid.

Fact is that it wouldn’t make anything better. It just slows down content production while training guilds exist and train people every day.

Doam.8305:

….

Mesmer (not Chronomancer) is one of the best damage dealers on Matthias. Condi Mesmer is already disgusting in PvP, but you can’t get enough right?
Chronomancer is balanced around alacrity and perma quickness. You have the best damage support in the game and want more damage, thats how you get 8 chronomancer, 2 warrior groups.

redux.1502:

Vayne.8563:

redux.1502:

Also, raids in their current implementation are NOT hard.

Gearing yourself out over time is NOT hard.

There are plenty of people who will take players into raids who are not full ascended. Get your ascended trinkets and literally you’re geared enough to clear all of the bosses.

That people think that part is hard just baffles me.

You don’t find it hard. I do find it hard. I find it hard to see circles sometimes, because I’m colorbind. I think it’s hard if there’s lag, particularly because I live in Australia, and I’m 55 years old, and my joints don’t work like they did when I was 20.

This attitude of it’s not hard for me so it’s not hard is one of the things that make people resent raiding so much.

But making an easy mode is the worst possible way to make the game mode more accessible. The sense of love and enjoyment and feeling of success that comes from overcoming raids at their current level of difficulty is so satisfying.
Generating an easy mode sets us on a downward spiral of people only completing the content once and saying “oh, I’ve seen it, I’m pretty much done with it.”
Even if those modes have worse rewards, the impact of the story is gutted when there is no challenge. We saw that all the way through LWS1. There were other things wrong of course. But no, creating an easy mode is NOT the solution. A colorblind option? Sure.

As a former WoW player, this is not true. When WoW introduced basically ‘ez mode’ raids that did wonders to get people into raiding. They did it smart – they added an easier raid mode with less rewards for people that just wanted the story and basics of the encounter but also harder modes for people that wanted more challenge and rewards. I raided before and after these changes and I can say that a lot of people did graduate to normal raiding after trying out the easier mode raids. So everyone is happy, they get the challenge level they like.

Miellyn.6847:

Orpheal.8263:

….

Ressources are finite. Take some for difficulties and they disappear on other content. Slower content productions is also less content.
Dungeons don’t have difficulties they have different paths in the same area. Something completely different. A training mode would be the same in a different instance.
The example you want is fractals and fractal development is slow. They said implementing a new difficulty is almost the same work as a new instance. I rather take the new instance instead of another difficulty.

Mechanics get added over time during the boss fights. There is your training mode. Just ignore the timer, get better at the mechanics and the damage will be enough unless you run 10 builds with zero offense.

There are guilds that are dedicated to train people for raids. Everything is there all you need is to show some effort that you actually want to raid.

Fact is that it wouldn’t make anything better. It just slows down content production while training guilds exist and train people every day.

Doam.8305:

….

Mesmer (not Chronomancer) is one of the best damage dealers on Matthias. Condi Mesmer is already disgusting in PvP, but you can’t get enough right?
Chronomancer is balanced around alacrity and perma quickness. You have the best damage support in the game and want more damage, thats how you get 8 chronomancer, 2 warrior groups.

trolling used to be better

You list a raid boss with niche mechanics and pretend that solves the world while completely negating the article that straight up dictates that mesmers are not equal. Your view of a the class is a one trick pony got for mechanic abuse.

Most importantly that one trick pony build is the only mesmer build on the entire chart. The other classes make multiple appearances cept mesmer and its other dps oriented builds don’t even register high enough to make it at the bottom of the barrel like the one condi build happened to do.

It’s not the best damage dealer if its only on a single boss and the only build that does enough dmg to be listed. The other classes have multiple varients that do more dps than the single dps build that people keep trying to quote. Whatever dps your imagining your gonna do more dps on another class its just how it is heck we don’t even have a condition elite the other condi classes have a condi elite but mesmers have no such thing ever since they stripped conditions from glamours.

As for PvP strip Moa as pvp is the only thing moa is good for since it’s not equal in usage for breakbar pve content. You remove Moa and you have nothing in regards to Mesmer pvp well below the other classes. All classes are up there do to balance and strong builds while mesmers are up there because there so light and frail they can be carried by a balloon the mighty Moa balloon. Mesmers since well before HoT have literally posted numerous times to nerf Moa so other aspects of the class could actually be strengthened and balanced.

Doam.8305:

…

I never said that mesmer is the best damage dealer overall but at this specific boss that counters your argument that mesmer deal no damage at all.

Ranger and Revenants have also only one damage build and Revenant has only one competetive build at all.

Moonyeti.3296:

…

Even Blizzard said that the conversion rate from LFR to normal is bad. Stop making things up. LFR didn’t to wonders and it is needed as WoW has mostly raid patches, nothing else. Unlike here where most patches are actually Living World.

Miellyn.6847:

Doam.8305:

…

I never said that mesmer is the best damage dealer overall but at this specific boss that counters your argument that mesmer deal no damage at all.

Ranger and Revenants have also only one damage build and Revenant has only one competetive build at all.

Moonyeti.3296:

…

Even Blizzard said that the conversion rate from LFR to normal is bad. Stop making things up. LFR didn’t to wonders and it is needed as WoW has mostly raid patches, nothing else. Unlike here where most patches are actually Living World.

The ranger and Rev build are both capable of outputting much more dps then the mesmer there listed after all. Ranger is actually one of the hardest dps hitting classes right now. It’s not about being the best it’s about being so bad and so low with dps that the other classes literally have both condi and power and varient builds that are easier to use and still are capable of much more dps then the very best a mesmer can pull off. Some class has to be at the bottom but when you consider the top ten or even

Also Revs are new well sorta people gave them time and are still giving Anet time to fit Revenants in a proper position.

Oh about that other comment I played WoW and Blizzard themselves have stated that LFR helped with raid retention. This game having more game content is just lol too. WoW doesn’t have pure raid patches like Gw2 did with the first few patches after HoT. Raids in WoW just don’t open they have Thunder islands and other new areas that open up that introduce the raids. The world is expanded to accomadate that raid and that new land has new mobs, pets, lootables, and primarily a brand spanking new faction to get exalted with rewards and perks. Also LFR/Easy mode is where the new and casual players go the toxic bunch go into higher tiers. Toxicity is the major problems and lfr separated that toxic aspect no one cares about the difficulty they care about going into a raid and not worrying about dps meters and people yelling all the time they just want to have fun. In addition old content can be soloed if someone wanted the full story from vanilla to Cata i think since I’m not sure if Panda end raid mechanics can be soloed then they can easily. GW2 isn’t a game of treadmills so it needs the easy mode more than even WoW not like anyone is clamoring to do Arah or Aetherpath these days and the raids will end up just like the dungeons in time. It’s only an issue in this game because of how its set up and its obvious their trying to shovel people into raids as ascended armor acquisition was left untouched in raids while there also getting legendary armor while the other modes are getting the WvW/Dungeon treatment.

Remove the notion of toxic backlash by separating the weeds and elitist toxic dps reading elitists and raids will thrive and you can’t do that without splitting raids into difficulties. People will be more open knowing the tryhards are in another mode there like rabbits and get spooked easily they’ll report but they’ll also never set foot in that mode again do to the bad experience.

People keep going off track in discussing whether “GW2 lost its identity.” To answer that question, you first have to establish what that identity was and whether the needs of its players have changed. Those are only partially questions of fact and even then, they each depend heavily on what you mean by “identity” and “GW2’s players.”

This game has always had content that only a minority enjoy, content that has required dev resources to update & maintain. It’s had some form of ascended gear and fractals since near-to-launch. It’s had maps that many veterans (though never a majority) complained about. It’s changed many times, in many ways, some of which have been designed for those who didn’t yet own the game and some that improved things for veterans … and some of each of those things make sense to players joining today, but some don’t.

Perhaps more significant than any of that, each of us has changed since we started playing. What amounted to ‘easy’ then isn’t the same as now; what was challenging when we first DL’d the game might be dull now.

The original game offered new content every two weeks (aside from ‘breaks’) — that was the game’s identity then. And many of us loved that, even as many (including some of the same folks) hated disposable content, frequent bugs, and the difficulty finding other people who learned the new content quickly enough to ‘complete’ it before it disappeared.

The current game doesn’t have a vanishing story & updates much less frequently; instead it requires us to pay gems to participate in the stories that launched when we weren’t around. That’s a huge change. Is it better? Worse? Depends whether you play every day, whether you like dealing with bugs, whether you like more more more.

5-person content used to be the big 5-person challenge. Now, it’s 10-person content, even though there’s even more (and more polished) 5-person content, too. PvP used to be the forgotten child; now it’s WvW. Inventory management used to be 12 kinds of nightmares, now it’s only 6.

tl;dr
The game has changed enormously. Our attitudes & expectations have changed. I don’t think it’s really possibly to say if the “identity has changed,” let alone been lost, without being super specific about what that means. And that meaning depends on lot on who you talk to.

There are a lot comments talking about raids and there difficulty and accessibility. I would like to throw my hat in the ring, and state that the difficulty of raids, at least for me is because it’s “group content”. I’ve beaten every boss in Dark Souls 3 at Soul Level 1, as well as every boss in Bloodborne with the “Waste of Skin” Origin. Some examples of some tough bosses I’ve beaten would be Laurence (11 hours of dying), Pthumerian Descendant (9 hours of dying), Loran Darkbeast (16 hours of dying).

The problem with GW2 raids, is that you need 9 other people. You need to arrange your schedule around those other people, rely on the skill and experience levels of those people, and deal with any group drama that might unfold. On the other hand, a game like Bloodborne or Dark Souls 3, you rely only on your own ability, every mistake you make is your own, and you can try anytime you want without compromising your schedule, and you take ownership for every success and failure. I personally would like to raid, but cannot because I forced to rely on other people, I cannot have a “fair challenge” without relying on others. I don’t want to spend 90 minutes slowing plinking away at a bosses health, because the boss is designed around the dps of 10 people.

I believe that “fair and challenging” content should be based purely on personal skill as well as easily accessible. For example, in Bloodborne you can beat every boss in the game without leveling, without any armor, without help from others, without weapons, relying nothing on dodging and positioning. In other words, only a deep and fundamental understanding of the games core mechanics will be enough. You cannot memorize some guild’s raid formula to win, only through true understanding of boss and class mechanics can you win. Obviously, GW2 is a lot more restricted in terms of gear, level, builds. That being said, the challenging content should not be gated around needing other people. I don’t play challenging games to improve my social skills, I play challenging content to improve my technical ability in the game and GW2 sorely lacks actual challenging solo content.

I’ve read posts of players like myself, who enjoy challenging content to improve and to push limits. But that content shouldn’t be gated by the need for other people, challenging content should test the skill of the individual and designed around a single player. I am getting sick of soloing “meat shield” bosses with massive health pools designed around 5-10 people.

The solution is to make future challenging content, designed for one player. There would be no toxicity, because there is only one person to blame for mistakes (you). The content would be more accessible, as anyone can join. You would be able to try the new challenging content at your own terms, at your own pace, and you take ownership for your own success or failure.

Just my two cents.

Waiting for the inevitable “But it’s a MMO, you are suppose to be playing it with other people”.

I’m also detest placing my evening’s enjoyment in the hands of 4 or 9 other players. However that is significantly mitigated when it’s friends rather than random strangers.

The solution is to make future challenging content, designed for one player. There would be no toxicity, because there is only one person to blame for mistakes (you). The content would be more accessible, as anyone can join. You would be able to try the new challenging content at your own terms, at your own pace, and you take ownership for your own success or failure.

Just my two cents.

Sounds like you’re playing the wrong kind of game then IMO. This game has a staggering amount of content for a MMO that you don’t need to be in an organized group for, but it still has content that is designed for groups.

The mechanics of this game have obviously changed over the four years since launch with a noticeable increase to making it a lot more alt friendly but it’s still the dynamic beauty that I loved when I first tried it during the first open world beta.

Many if the changes have refined what was already a good system and built on it. Though I bet by next year they will be trying to redesign everything for the whatever time