Guild Wars 2

Behellagh.1468:

Because those players are interested in getting the unique rewards that raids offer. And the only way to do so without finding a like minded group of Play-As-I-Want individuals is to conform to whatever profession and build out is the current raid meta and try to find a PUG that’ll accept them.

The key thing being without having to make any effort to find like-minded players. What kind of effort did the early raid adopters have to put in to find other players and learn the encounters? Why should other players be able to obtain the same rewards with less investment? Essentially, you’ve got two demographics that value different play-styles. Why should the PAIW (play as I want) player be entitled to a successful play experience with less effort than the meta player?

You know, I get it. It would be really nice if everyone who queues for instanced content were as accepting of players who are new to such content. However, remember this. The same forces that drive the PAIW player (convenience, lack of tons of time to try and fail and learn, etc.) also drive the meta player.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Behellagh.1468:

Because those players are interested in getting the unique rewards that raids offer. And the only way to do so without finding a like minded group of Play-As-I-Want individuals is to conform to whatever profession and build out is the current raid meta and try to find a PUG that’ll accept them.

The key thing being without having to make any effort to find like-minded players. What kind of effort did the early raid adopters have to put in to find other players and learn the encounters? Why should other players be able to obtain the same rewards with less investment? Essentially, you’ve got two demographics that value different play-styles. Why should the PAIW (play as I want) player be entitled to a successful play experience with less effort than the meta player?

You know, I get it. It would be really nice if everyone who queues for instanced content were as accepting of players who are new to such content. However, remember this. The same forces that drive the PAIW player (convenience, lack of tons of time to try and fail and learn, etc.) also drive the meta player.

Because games should be all about effort? Depends on how you define effort. There are different types of effort. Some people are really uncomfortable playing in groups, but they’ll grind until their fingers fall off. That’s a type of effort too.

Intensity is effort but so is endurance. The difference is, people who are grinders could get rewards prior to this at least most of the rewards. Legendary weapon, you could get it if you wanted to grind, even if you weren’t very good. You had a path to that reward.

Now, it’s not so simple to have a path to those rewards. You say well why should you get those rewards, you’re not working as hard as these other people. Maybe some of us didn’t buy this game to work. Maybe some of us bought the game to have fun and Anet keeps moving the bar on what we have to do to get those rewards, which is the opposite of fun.

No one ever accused me of not putting effort into this game. That’s very different from saying I’m going to like or enjoy raids. What you’re essentially saying is I should do something I don’t enjoy for hours to get a reward that I can’t get any other way. A reward that wasn’t in the game, in a type of content that wasn’t in the game. That’s a very different story.

I really dislike when people make it sound like I’m just lazy or I don’t want to make sacrifices. That’s not true. However, I do want to have fun playing a game I purchased.

Vayne.8563:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Behellagh.1468:

Because those players are interested in getting the unique rewards that raids offer. And the only way to do so without finding a like minded group of Play-As-I-Want individuals is to conform to whatever profession and build out is the current raid meta and try to find a PUG that’ll accept them.

The key thing being without having to make any effort to find like-minded players. What kind of effort did the early raid adopters have to put in to find other players and learn the encounters? Why should other players be able to obtain the same rewards with less investment? Essentially, you’ve got two demographics that value different play-styles. Why should the PAIW (play as I want) player be entitled to a successful play experience with less effort than the meta player?

You know, I get it. It would be really nice if everyone who queues for instanced content were as accepting of players who are new to such content. However, remember this. The same forces that drive the PAIW player (convenience, lack of tons of time to try and fail and learn, etc.) also drive the meta player.

Because games should be all about effort? Depends on how you define effort. There are different types of effort. Some people are really uncomfortable playing in groups, but they’ll grind until their fingers fall off. That’s a type of effort too.

Intensity is effort but so is endurance. The difference is, people who are grinders could get rewards prior to this at least most of the rewards. Legendary weapon, you could get it if you wanted to grind, even if you weren’t very good. You had a path to that reward.

Now, it’s not so simple to have a path to those rewards. You say well why should you get those rewards, you’re not working as hard as these other people. Maybe some of us didn’t buy this game to work. Maybe some of us bought the game to have fun and Anet keeps moving the bar on what we have to do to get those rewards, which is the opposite of fun.

No one ever accused me of not putting effort into this game. That’s very different from saying I’m going to like or enjoy raids. What you’re essentially saying is I should do something I don’t enjoy for hours to get a reward that I can’t get any other way. A reward that wasn’t in the game, in a type of content that wasn’t in the game. That’s a very different story.

I really dislike when people make it sound like I’m just lazy or I don’t want to make sacrifices. That’s not true. However, I do want to have fun playing a game I purchased.

So tell me how i get the PVP legendary without PVPing.
The Fractal legendary or gold fractal weapons or even the new purple plant weapon skin from 100CM withou doing fractals?
Or how do i get Astralia without doing open world boring stuff?
See, every mode have exclusive rewards, so this talk about you having path to get all other things without playing what you dont want never existed. Having exclusive rewards for each part of the game is really health. If every mode have all the rewards, it just make the reward system really bland.
So want raids stuff? Do raids.
I would love to have Astralia but i will never put myself on the open world boring grind, and its ok.

This would be fixed if there was a different legendary armor that was obtained in PVE/PVP/or Fractals.

OnizukaBR.8537:

Vayne.8563:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Behellagh.1468:

Because those players are interested in getting the unique rewards that raids offer. And the only way to do so without finding a like minded group of Play-As-I-Want individuals is to conform to whatever profession and build out is the current raid meta and try to find a PUG that’ll accept them.

The key thing being without having to make any effort to find like-minded players. What kind of effort did the early raid adopters have to put in to find other players and learn the encounters? Why should other players be able to obtain the same rewards with less investment? Essentially, you’ve got two demographics that value different play-styles. Why should the PAIW (play as I want) player be entitled to a successful play experience with less effort than the meta player?

You know, I get it. It would be really nice if everyone who queues for instanced content were as accepting of players who are new to such content. However, remember this. The same forces that drive the PAIW player (convenience, lack of tons of time to try and fail and learn, etc.) also drive the meta player.

Because games should be all about effort? Depends on how you define effort. There are different types of effort. Some people are really uncomfortable playing in groups, but they’ll grind until their fingers fall off. That’s a type of effort too.

Intensity is effort but so is endurance. The difference is, people who are grinders could get rewards prior to this at least most of the rewards. Legendary weapon, you could get it if you wanted to grind, even if you weren’t very good. You had a path to that reward.

Now, it’s not so simple to have a path to those rewards. You say well why should you get those rewards, you’re not working as hard as these other people. Maybe some of us didn’t buy this game to work. Maybe some of us bought the game to have fun and Anet keeps moving the bar on what we have to do to get those rewards, which is the opposite of fun.

No one ever accused me of not putting effort into this game. That’s very different from saying I’m going to like or enjoy raids. What you’re essentially saying is I should do something I don’t enjoy for hours to get a reward that I can’t get any other way. A reward that wasn’t in the game, in a type of content that wasn’t in the game. That’s a very different story.

I really dislike when people make it sound like I’m just lazy or I don’t want to make sacrifices. That’s not true. However, I do want to have fun playing a game I purchased.

So tell me how i get the PVP legendary without PVPing.
The Fractal legendary or gold fractal weapons or even the new purple plant weapon skin from 100CM withou doing fractals?
Or how do i get Astralia without doing open world boring stuff?
See, every mode have exclusive rewards, so this talk about you having path to get all other things without playing what you dont want never existed. Having exclusive rewards for each part of the game is really health. If every mode have all the rewards, it just make the reward system really bland.
So want raids stuff? Do raids.
I would love to have Astralia but i will never put myself on the open world boring grind, and its ok.

You can’t get the PvP ascended backpack without PvPing, but you can get the fractal legendary backpack without PvPing. There are two paths to a legendary back piece.

Do you know, dungeon armor was created so that you had a reward for specific dungeons. You ran those dungeons to get that armor. PvP people complained that they didn’t want to run dungeons, they didn’t find running dungeons fun and wahlah! Anet created PvP tracks for PvP.

WvW people complained they didn’t want to go into HoT to unlock their elite specs and look at that. Anet created another path to get hero points in HoT without ever entering HoT.

It’s everyone’s right to say I want another path to rewards.

Skins are a bit different than an entire tier of armor that has an animation like no other armor in the game. Give me a different legendary armor skin that animates with a different path and that would be fine. Say I have to play something I really can’t stand to get something that is only available through one type of play, that’s not fine to me.

You can’t get Astralaria without doing PvE but you can get a legendary Axe, namely Frostfang.

You know, in Guild Wars 1, tormented weapons were the top weapons and you could get them in Kamadan by farming the gold and buying them from other players. I enjoyed that about Guild Wars 1. Though I beat DOA I didn’t want to farm DOA…but I could still get DOA rewards.

slashlizardy.9167:

This would be fixed if there was a different legendary armor that was obtained in PVE/PVP/or Fractals.

I really do not fully understand, why some peoples are so obsessed by the legendary armor.

Firstly, it seems that it will be incredibly expensive and time consuming to make it. According to the wiki, every part of the set will be approx. at the same price/material level as a Legendary weapon, besides those LIs from raids.

Secondly, I don’t think that the armor will be much more usefull than Ascended armor. Yes, there will be selectable stats on each piece, like Legendary weapons have. But even the possibility to change stats on weapons is not too practical, because it is not possible to change the sigils easily, because the sigil/rune extractor is an expensive one-time device from gemshop.

Vayne.8563:

You can’t get the PvP ascended backpack without PvPing, but you can get the fractal legendary backpack without PvPing. There are two paths at a legendary back piece.

Do you know, dungeon armor was created so that you had a reward for specific dungeons. You ran those dungeons to get that armor. PvP people complained that they didn’t want to run dungeons, they didn’t find running dungeons run and wahlah! Anet created PvP tracks for PvP.

WvW people complained they didn’t want to go into HoT to unlock their elite specs and look at that. Anet created another path to get hero points in HoT without ever entering HoT.

It’s everyone’s right to say I want another path to rewards.

Skins are a bit different than an entire tier of armor that has an animation like no other armor in the game. Give me a different legendary armor skin that animates with a different path and that would be fine. Say I have to play something I really can’t stand to get something that is only available through one type of play, that’s not fine to me.

You can’t get Astralaria without doing PvE but you can get a legendary Axe, namely Frostfang.

You know, in Guild Wars 1, tormented weapons were the top weapons and you could get them in Kamadan by farming the gold and buying them from other players. I enjoyed that about Guild Wars 1. Though I beat DOA I didn’t want to farm DOA…but I could still get DOA rewards.

But we dont even have the raid legendary armor yet.
So you upset for not having a reward path for a reward that no one still has???
And they never said that the raid will be the only path to a legendary armor.
But still you dont have every path for everything, if you only like open world and WvW you still cant have a legendary backpack.

Eudoxus.5302:

slashlizardy.9167:

This would be fixed if there was a different legendary armor that was obtained in PVE/PVP/or Fractals.

I really do not fully understand, why some peoples are so obsessed by the legendary armor.

Firstly, it seems that it will be incredibly expensive and time consuming to make it. According to the wiki, every part of the set will be approx. at the same price/material level as a Legendary weapon, besides those LIs from raids.

Secondly, I don’t think that the armor will be much more usefull than Ascended armor. Yes, there will be selectable stats on each piece, like Legendary weapons have. But even the possibility to change stats on weapons is not too practical, because it is not possible to change the sigils easily, because the sigil/rune extractor is an expensive one-time device from gemshop.

Technically the entire cost for the set is around the cost of a HoT legendary. The only time consuming but would be the collections it’s not really any worse than what we do for existing collections for precursors and gifts.

As you said, legendary armor won’t be as useful because you cannot change the runes. It also lacks portability in the sense that it will likely be weight bound. If you make heavy armor then only three out of nine classes can use it. Until they give sigils and runes slots independent of armor, like in sPvP, I personally don’t see a use for them unless you want the skin or are a completionist.

OnizukaBR.8537:

Vayne.8563:

You can’t get the PvP ascended backpack without PvPing, but you can get the fractal legendary backpack without PvPing. There are two paths at a legendary back piece.

Do you know, dungeon armor was created so that you had a reward for specific dungeons. You ran those dungeons to get that armor. PvP people complained that they didn’t want to run dungeons, they didn’t find running dungeons run and wahlah! Anet created PvP tracks for PvP.

WvW people complained they didn’t want to go into HoT to unlock their elite specs and look at that. Anet created another path to get hero points in HoT without ever entering HoT.

It’s everyone’s right to say I want another path to rewards.

Skins are a bit different than an entire tier of armor that has an animation like no other armor in the game. Give me a different legendary armor skin that animates with a different path and that would be fine. Say I have to play something I really can’t stand to get something that is only available through one type of play, that’s not fine to me.

You can’t get Astralaria without doing PvE but you can get a legendary Axe, namely Frostfang.

You know, in Guild Wars 1, tormented weapons were the top weapons and you could get them in Kamadan by farming the gold and buying them from other players. I enjoyed that about Guild Wars 1. Though I beat DOA I didn’t want to farm DOA…but I could still get DOA rewards.

But we dont even have the raid legendary armor yet.
So you upset for not having a reward path for a reward that no one still has???
And they never said that the raid will be the only path to a legendary armor.
But still you dont have every path for everything, if you only like open world and WvW you still cant have a legendary backpack.

I’ve made maybe six, seven posts about this, not because it’s the biggest deal in the world, but because it’s an example. This is not about what is, it’s about what people feel. Right now, we know legendary armor is coming and we know even to get precursors you have to raid to do it. We’ve heard nothing else about legendary armor anywhere else in the game. So when, in your estimation, would be the best time to mention it to Anet? Not like I have their home phone number and can call them up and make suggestions. The time to suggest stuff is now, because it takes months and years to get anything done. Not sure why anyone would think I should wait to bring it up.

But more than anything, when that animated armor is in the game, and people start running around in it, and it’ll be noticable, I’m sure, that’s going to encourage some people to raid. And if they find raiding annoying or content they don’t enjoy, or they know they’re never going to have it because they don’t like the idea of raiding, it might encourage some people to leave…or play less…or spend less money in the cash shop.

I don’t work for Anet. For all I know they don’t know I exist at all. But sure, if they announce something and I want something else, of course I’m going to talk about it at the earliest opportunity.

Why wouldn’t I?

CptAurellian.9537:

Blaeys.3102:

With dungeons, there was always much more wiggle room. Any build and playstyle was reasonably (very important word) viable, no matter how far from the meta. Players that chose not to min-max could still enjoy the content while retaining some unique character identity.

Rose-tinted glasses, anyone?

Except it isnt about rose-tinted glasses – AT ALL. In the early game days, my guild had “dungeon days” every week in which we did them in guild groups (I remember this clearly because I was the one that set them up). We never once even stopped to consider what professions or builds people were bringing. At most, in EXTREMELY rare cases, we might have someone swap in a guardian on lupicus if the group was struggling, but, again that was very rare. We cared more about the attitude (eg friendly) of the player more than anything else.

Were they the fastest dungeon runs ever? Of course not – but we didnt care. We were having fun doing the content with people we chose to run with based on friendships.

Raids change that dynamic – and not in a good way. This leads to the situation I and many others outline above in this thread.

And, again for a disclaimer – challenging content is a good thing. Almost no one is asking for that to go away. The answer is tiered difficulty – to bring back the OPTION of running the content based on friendships as well as the factors we see in raids now.

Blaeys.3102:

CptAurellian.9537:

Blaeys.3102:

With dungeons, there was always much more wiggle room. Any build and playstyle was reasonably (very important word) viable, no matter how far from the meta. Players that chose not to min-max could still enjoy the content while retaining some unique character identity.

Rose-tinted glasses, anyone?

Except it isnt about rose-tinted glasses – AT ALL. In the early game days, my guild had “dungeon days” every week in which we did them in guild groups (I remember this clearly because I was the one that set them up). We never once even stopped to consider what professions or builds people were bringing. At most, in EXTREMELY rare cases, we might have someone swap in a guardian on lupicus if the group was struggling, but, again that was very rare. We cared more about the attitude (eg friendly) of the player more than anything else.

Were they the fastest dungeon runs ever? Of course not – but we didnt care. We were having fun doing the content with people we chose to run with based on friendships.

Raids change that dynamic – and not in a good way. This leads to the situation I and many others outline above in this thread.

And, again for a disclaimer – challenging content is a good thing. Almost no one is asking for that to go away. The answer is tiered difficulty – to bring back the OPTION of running the content based on friendships as well as the factors we see in raids now.

There we go, the nice/good dungeon group you are talking about, its the nice/good group that you created and leaded with guild members.
So how its different of you making your nice/good raid group???
Before you had meta PUG dungeon group. Now you have meta PUG raid groups.
Before you had your own any build dungeon group. Now you can still make your own any build raid group ( I do, and get kills with my healer revenant)

OnizukaBR.8537:

Blaeys.3102:

CptAurellian.9537:

Blaeys.3102:

With dungeons, there was always much more wiggle room. Any build and playstyle was reasonably (very important word) viable, no matter how far from the meta. Players that chose not to min-max could still enjoy the content while retaining some unique character identity.

Rose-tinted glasses, anyone?

Except it isnt about rose-tinted glasses – AT ALL. In the early game days, my guild had “dungeon days” every week in which we did them in guild groups (I remember this clearly because I was the one that set them up). We never once even stopped to consider what professions or builds people were bringing. At most, in EXTREMELY rare cases, we might have someone swap in a guardian on lupicus if the group was struggling, but, again that was very rare. We cared more about the attitude (eg friendly) of the player more than anything else.

Were they the fastest dungeon runs ever? Of course not – but we didnt care. We were having fun doing the content with people we chose to run with based on friendships.

Raids change that dynamic – and not in a good way. This leads to the situation I and many others outline above in this thread.

And, again for a disclaimer – challenging content is a good thing. Almost no one is asking for that to go away. The answer is tiered difficulty – to bring back the OPTION of running the content based on friendships as well as the factors we see in raids now.

There we go, the nice/good dungeon group you are talking about, its the nice/good group that you created and leaded with guild members.
So how its different of you making your nice/good raid group???
Before you had meta PUG dungeon group. Now you have meta PUG raid groups.
Before you had your own any build dungeon group. Now you can still make your own any build raid group ( I do, and get kills with my healer revenant)

I run successful raids every week. And we tried the above with others in the guild. For a couple of months, we were getting 50+ people together once or twice weekly and creating as many groups as we could.

It didn’t work for reasons pretty much everyone understands (but some want to ignore).

It didn’t work because most raid bosses have at least a soft “fast kill” mechanic as well as a number of other mechanics tuned around semi meta builds in full ascended armor sets being played by people who fully understand their professions. Yes, most enrages can be dealt with with a pro group in any gear, but that doesnt stand true for more casual groups (and Im pretty sure you know this).

There are a great number of builds/playstyles/etc that are simply not realistically viable in raids in casual groups. Are they viable in the hands of pro players with hours of experience – of course – but, again, that is not what we are talking about here.

Different people play the game for different reasons. Some play for the pure challenge (which again, is not something that we want to see go away). Some play for the friendships. Some play for the story experience. There is no way a single raid version can meet the needs of these diverse groups. The only answer is tiered difficulties.

And, to the argument of “so what – raids dont need to” – I would point people back to the whole point of this thread – and the myriad of reasons I, as well as people like Vayne, have explained pretty well, imo.

All ascended provides to players is damage. It doesn’t provide nowledge of mechanics which is where most groups that fail will fail at.

Blaeys.3102:

OnizukaBR.8537:

Blaeys.3102:

CptAurellian.9537:

Blaeys.3102:

With dungeons, there was always much more wiggle room. Any build and playstyle was reasonably (very important word) viable, no matter how far from the meta. Players that chose not to min-max could still enjoy the content while retaining some unique character identity.

Rose-tinted glasses, anyone?

Except it isnt about rose-tinted glasses – AT ALL. In the early game days, my guild had “dungeon days” every week in which we did them in guild groups (I remember this clearly because I was the one that set them up). We never once even stopped to consider what professions or builds people were bringing. At most, in EXTREMELY rare cases, we might have someone swap in a guardian on lupicus if the group was struggling, but, again that was very rare. We cared more about the attitude (eg friendly) of the player more than anything else.

Were they the fastest dungeon runs ever? Of course not – but we didnt care. We were having fun doing the content with people we chose to run with based on friendships.

Raids change that dynamic – and not in a good way. This leads to the situation I and many others outline above in this thread.

And, again for a disclaimer – challenging content is a good thing. Almost no one is asking for that to go away. The answer is tiered difficulty – to bring back the OPTION of running the content based on friendships as well as the factors we see in raids now.

There we go, the nice/good dungeon group you are talking about, its the nice/good group that you created and leaded with guild members.
So how its different of you making your nice/good raid group???
Before you had meta PUG dungeon group. Now you have meta PUG raid groups.
Before you had your own any build dungeon group. Now you can still make your own any build raid group ( I do, and get kills with my healer revenant)

I run successful raids every week. And we tried the above with others in the guild. For a couple of months, we were getting 50+ people together once or twice weekly and creating as many groups as we could.

It didn’t work for reasons pretty much everyone understands (but some want to ignore).

It didn’t work because most raid bosses have at least a soft “fast kill” mechanic as well as a number of other mechanics tuned around semi meta builds in full ascended armor sets being played by people who fully understand their professions. Yes, most enrages can be dealt with with a pro group in any gear, but that doesnt stand true for more casual groups (and Im pretty sure you know this).

There are a great number of builds/playstyles/etc that are simply not realistically viable in raids in casual groups. Are they viable in the hands of pro players with hours of experience – of course – but, again, that is not what we are talking about here.

Different people play the game for different reasons. Some play for the pure challenge (which again, is not something that we want to see go away). Some play for the friendships. Some play for the story experience. There is no way a single raid version can meet the needs of these diverse groups. The only answer is tiered difficulties.

And, to the argument of “so what – raids dont need to” – I would point people back to the whole point of this thread – and the myriad of reasons I, as well as people like Vayne, have explained pretty well, imo.

As i said in other post, show me this comp that you tried and didnt work, and only pros would make it work.
Because its not true, if its come and show the comp or stop telling lies just because people want rewards for no effort.
I’m really far away of being a pro and i play with 180-200 ping still manage to clear raids with many kinds of builds.
The only boss that you have a lot of options but not every single build is viable ( like 10 healing tempest ) are Sabetha and Gors because Gors insta kill everyone, and Sabetha will eventually destroy the platform.

OnizukaBR.8537:

As i said in other post, show me this comp that you tried and didnt work, and only pros would make it work.
Because its not true, if its come and show the comp or stop telling lies just because people want rewards for no effort.
I’m really far away of being a pro and i play with 180-200 ping still manage to clear raids with many kinds of builds.
The only boss that you have a lot of options but not every single build is viable ( like 10 healing tempest ) are Sabetha and Gors because Gors insta kill everyone, and Sabetha will eventually destroy the platform.

I have no clue what builds all of these people were bringing – and it doesn’t really matter.

The problem exists in game – whether you believe it to be a perception issue or not. Maybe it’s something that players could fix, but we all know how unlikely that is – even if it were possible. There are a lot of people who just don’t want to put the work into it (and, that is okay – again, its just a different way of playing the game).

As long as the perception persists, the issue will persist – and it will hurt the game (whether you think that is justified or fair or whatever – the perception will create the reality).

The answer is greater accessibility, even if you – or even the raid team – have issues with that answer. Changing gears this drastically 4 years into the game – which is what the raid model has done (even if you dont agree – perceptually, it has) – is only going to alienate players and hurt the game.

Blaeys.3102:

OnizukaBR.8537:

As i said in other post, show me this comp that you tried and didnt work, and only pros would make it work.
Because its not true, if its come and show the comp or stop telling lies just because people want rewards for no effort.
I’m really far away of being a pro and i play with 180-200 ping still manage to clear raids with many kinds of builds.
The only boss that you have a lot of options but not every single build is viable ( like 10 healing tempest ) are Sabetha and Gors because Gors insta kill everyone, and Sabetha will eventually destroy the platform.

I have no clue what builds all of these people were bringing – and it doesn’t really matter.

The problem exists in game – whether you believe it to be a perception issue or not. Maybe it’s something that players could fix, but we all know how unlikely that is – even if it were possible. There are a lot of people who just don’t want to put the work into it (and, that is okay – again, its just a different way of playing the game).

As long as the perception persists, the issue will persist – and it will hurt the game (whether you think that is justified or fair or whatever – the perception will create the reality).

The answer is greater accessibility, even if you – or even the raid team – have issues with that answer. Changing gears this drastically 4 years into the game – which is what the raid model has done (even if you dont agree – perceptually, it has) – is only going to alienate players and hurt the game.

What were their skill levels? Do they know their class? Do they have much experience with the raid? There’s more than things that can cause a fail than gear/build. I’ve seen plenty of groups fail repeatedly using meta gear/builds.

Blaeys.3102:

….. We were having fun doing the content with people we chose to run with based on friendships.

…

none of that ‘fun’ now. don’t u kno the focus is on being leet and telling/showing others how much moar leet u are than them.

its about git gud or git out

Blaeys.3102:

OnizukaBR.8537:

As i said in other post, show me this comp that you tried and didnt work, and only pros would make it work.
Because its not true, if its come and show the comp or stop telling lies just because people want rewards for no effort.
I’m really far away of being a pro and i play with 180-200 ping still manage to clear raids with many kinds of builds.
The only boss that you have a lot of options but not every single build is viable ( like 10 healing tempest ) are Sabetha and Gors because Gors insta kill everyone, and Sabetha will eventually destroy the platform.

I have no clue what builds all of these people were bringing – and it doesn’t really matter.

The problem exists in game – whether you believe it to be a perception issue or not. Maybe it’s something that players could fix, but we all know how unlikely that is – even if it were possible. There are a lot of people who just don’t want to put the work into it (and, that is okay – again, its just a different way of playing the game).

As long as the perception persists, the issue will persist – and it will hurt the game (whether you think that is justified or fair or whatever – the perception will create the reality).

The answer is greater accessibility, even if you – or even the raid team – have issues with that answer. Changing gears this drastically 4 years into the game – which is what the raid model has done (even if you dont agree – perceptually, it has) - is only going to alienate players and hurt the game.

So they dont want to put effort even when they want to use non meta builds, so its only natural that they dont get rewards for no effort. Period.

Now the second bold part:
No it wont hurt the game, but trying to make every part of the game to every kind of player would hurt the game. Because its never work, things will not be for everyone. Open world is not for everyone. There are a lot of players that hate it because its boring.

So trying to achieve this impossible goal ( making every game mode for everyone ) will only hurt the game, as it will still be not for everyone, and now its not even for the people it was created at first.

OnizukaBR.8537:

So they dont want to put effort even when they want to use non meta builds, so its only natural that they dont get rewards for no effort. Period.

Now the second bold part:
No it wont hurt the game, but trying to make every part of the game to every kind of player would hurt the game. Because its never work, things will not be for everyone. Open world is not for everyone. There are a lot of players that hate it because its boring.

So trying to achieve this impossible goal ( making every game mode for everyone ) will only hurt the game, as it will still be not for everyone, and now its not even for the people it was created at first.

It isnt about putting zero effort in. With dungeons and fractals, they did it right. A good mix of mechanics without limiting factors like we see in raids. It is about degrees. And while you may feel raids are in a good place in that regard, many do not.

It isnt about people being lazy. It isnt about people wanting reward for nothing. These are ridiculous arguments. Of course more challenging content (and more challenging versions) should have better rewards. Almost no one is debating that AT ALL (but it is easier to argue against the idea of tiers when you assume they have, so it keeps coming up).

It is about a wider range of options and experiences within the content mode – options and experiences that fit better with the identify of the game for the first 3.5 years (the topic of this thread).

And, again, it isnt about denying challenging content. I want that as much as anyone.

Blaeys.3102:

OnizukaBR.8537:

So they dont want to put effort even when they want to use non meta builds, so its only natural that they dont get rewards for no effort. Period.

Now the second bold part:
No it wont hurt the game, but trying to make every part of the game to every kind of player would hurt the game. Because its never work, things will not be for everyone. Open world is not for everyone. There are a lot of players that hate it because its boring.

So trying to achieve this impossible goal ( making every game mode for everyone ) will only hurt the game, as it will still be not for everyone, and now its not even for the people it was created at first.

It isnt about putting zero effort in. With dungeons and fractals, they did it right. A good mix of mechanics without limiting factors like we see in raids. It is about degrees. And while you may feel raids are in a good place in that regard, many do not.

It isnt about people being lazy. It isnt about people wanting reward for nothing. These are ridiculous arguments. Of course more challenging content (and more challenging versions) should have better rewards. Almost no one is debating that AT ALL (but it is easier to argue against the idea of tiers when you assume they have, so it keeps coming up).

It is about a wider range of options and experiences within the content mode – options and experiences that fit better with the identify of the game for the first 3.5 years (the topic of this thread).

And, again, it isnt about denying challenging content. I want that as much as anyone.

You need to accept that this is what raids are.
Open world is the easiest content.
Fractals are instanced content on 4 levels ( kitten,T3,T4).
Meta Events are open world easy group content.
Raids are instance hard content.
There is nothing that its not the identity of the game, you people pull this argument off thin air.
You want to change a content to fit what you like, which is selfish.

OnizukaBR.8537:

You need to accept that this is what raids are.
Open world is the easiest content.
Fractals are instanced content on 4 levels ( kitten,T3,T4).
Meta Events are open world easy group content.
Raids are instance hard content.
There is nothing that its not the identity of the game, you people pull this argument off thin air.
You want to change a content to fit what you like, which is selfish.

The forums are here – in part – to discuss what we feel should be – or we would like to see – changed. That is the whole point of threads like these. And I think enough people see an issue here to warrant ongoing discussion (at the very least)

And please stop with the insulting “selfish” and “you people”-style comments. It would be just as easy to say that raiders not wanting this are being just as selfish – not wanting to see their private club opened to the unwashed public (IM NOT SAYING THIS – it is just to prove a point). The truth is the “selfish” argument – from either side, is ridiculous.

This isnt about entitlement or selfishness. It is about changes people would personally like to (or, not like to) see implemented. Leave the veiled insults out of it. They add nothing to the conversation.

Blaeys.3102:

OnizukaBR.8537:

You need to accept that this is what raids are.
Open world is the easiest content.
Fractals are instanced content on 4 levels ( kitten,T3,T4).
Meta Events are open world easy group content.
Raids are instance hard content.
There is nothing that its not the identity of the game, you people pull this argument off thin air.
You want to change a content to fit what you like, which is selfish.

The forums are here – in part – to discuss what we feel should be – or we would like to see – changed. That is the whole point of threads like these. And I think enough people see an issue here to warrant ongoing discussion (at the very least)

And please stop with the insulting “selfish” and “you people”-style comments. It would be just as easy to say that raiders not wanting this are being just as selfish – not wanting to see their private club opened to the unwashed public (IM NOT SAYING THIS – it is just to prove a point). The truth is the “selfish” argument – from either side, is ridiculous.

This isnt about entitlement or selfishness. It is about changes people would personally like to (or, not like to) see implemented. Leave the veiled insults out of it. They add nothing to the conversation.

You never say that this easy mode raids are what you want, you say that it what everyone wants.
You say a lot of things like:
“Its to the better of the game”
“Raids are hurting the game”
“Raids need to catter to everyone”
You are not bringing arguments, you claiming things like truth without prove to sustain it.
So with lies like that you cant have a discussion, if you want to have a discussion about something bring prove to backup your words.
Everytime I asked for prove, like when you say that raids are not acessible because of meta, then i ask you, what builds? then you say “I dont know what build my group were using”.
You like to claim a lot of things, but you never bring data to backup it up.

OnizukaBR.8537:

You never say that this easy mode raids are what you want, you say that it what everyone wants.

An easy mode raid should be what everyone wants, except for those not wanting raids period.

Do you like raids? You should want to see an easy mode as it’ll greatly increase the participation and thus justify further development. There probably would have been a lot more dungeons today if they scaled for 1+.

See WoW. Raiding was originally less than 1% back in the hardcore days prior to WotLK. With LFR, raiding is now completed by the majority, where normal raiding is around 20% and hard mode progression raiding a fraction of that. The simple truth is, most people play for fun, solo and don’t want to waste their time. LFR is just that, where you simply queue up and win. If GW2 offered that, where you could earn the same rewards and just take 10x longer to earn them, it’d certainly be far more popular. To differentiate, actual raids could simply offer different cosmetics, like how SAB TM has colored weapons.

Healix.5819:

OnizukaBR.8537:

You never say that this easy mode raids are what you want, you say that it what everyone wants.

An easy mode raid should be what everyone wants, except for those not wanting raids period.

Do you like raids? You should want to see an easy mode as it’ll greatly increase the participation and thus justify further development. There probably would have been a lot more dungeons today if they scaled for 1+.

See WoW. Raiding was originally less than 1% back in the hardcore days prior to WotLK. With LFR, raiding is now completed by the majority, where normal raiding is around 20% and hard mode progression raiding a fraction of that. The simple truth is, most people play for fun, solo and don’t want to waste their time. LFR is just that, where you simply queue up and win. If GW2 offered that, where you could earn the same rewards and just take 10x longer to earn them, it’d certainly be far more popular. To differentiate, actual raids could simply offer different cosmetics, like how SAB TM has colored weapons.

Stop bringing WoW LFR argument. WoW is a Raid Centric game. GW2 is nto a Raid Centric game.

Raids and easy are two oposite things. If you want easy things you look for other things, anyone who like raids dont like easy mode.

And you can see how implementing it is a really bad move just look at wing 4. They introduced two of the easiest bosses you could have. And still the easy mode crowed dont like / dont do it, and almost all the raiders dont like how boring the two first bosses are.
See trying to please everybody ending pleasing nobody. Its a universal truth, people like different things.

So let me rephrase that for you:
“An easy mode raid should be what no one wants, except for those not wanting to raid in the first place period.”

Healix.5819:

OnizukaBR.8537:

You never say that this easy mode raids are what you want, you say that it what everyone wants.

An easy mode raid should be what everyone wants, except for those not wanting raids period.

Do you like raids? You should want to see an easy mode as it’ll greatly increase the participation and thus justify further development. There probably would have been a lot more dungeons today if they scaled for 1+.

See WoW. Raiding was originally less than 1% back in the hardcore days prior to WotLK. With LFR, raiding is now completed by the majority, where normal raiding is around 20% and hard mode progression raiding a fraction of that. The simple truth is, most people play for fun, solo and don’t want to waste their time. LFR is just that, where you simply queue up and win. If GW2 offered that, where you could earn the same rewards and just take 10x longer to earn them, it’d certainly be far more popular. To differentiate, actual raids could simply offer different cosmetics, like how SAB TM has colored weapons.

This to me is the best compromise; leave the normal raid difficulty alone for those that enjoy it. Add a ‘LFR’ style easier version of the raids (same basic maps and encounters, just tuned easier). Both give the same story content, but the hard raid gives better matereal rewards. The only potential downside to this is it may take too much dev time for it to happen, but that would be for Anet to decide. If they stated that yes it would be too resource intensive, fine. If not though, it is just people preemptively assuming it would take dev work away from other things.

In short, i’d love to see a LFR type of raid mode, but only if it is a reasonable request for the devs to implement.

OnizukaBR.8537:

Blaeys.3102:

OnizukaBR.8537:

You need to accept that this is what raids are.
Open world is the easiest content.
Fractals are instanced content on 4 levels ( kitten,T3,T4).
Meta Events are open world easy group content.
Raids are instance hard content.
There is nothing that its not the identity of the game, you people pull this argument off thin air.
You want to change a content to fit what you like, which is selfish.

The forums are here – in part – to discuss what we feel should be – or we would like to see – changed. That is the whole point of threads like these. And I think enough people see an issue here to warrant ongoing discussion (at the very least)

And please stop with the insulting “selfish” and “you people”-style comments. It would be just as easy to say that raiders not wanting this are being just as selfish – not wanting to see their private club opened to the unwashed public (IM NOT SAYING THIS – it is just to prove a point). The truth is the “selfish” argument – from either side, is ridiculous.

This isnt about entitlement or selfishness. It is about changes people would personally like to (or, not like to) see implemented. Leave the veiled insults out of it. They add nothing to the conversation.

You never say that this easy mode raids are what you want, you say that it what everyone wants.
You say a lot of things like:
“Its to the better of the game”
“Raids are hurting the game”
“Raids need to catter to everyone”
You are not bringing arguments, you claiming things like truth without prove to sustain it.
So with lies like that you cant have a discussion, if you want to have a discussion about something bring prove to backup your words.
Everytime I asked for prove, like when you say that raids are not acessible because of meta, then i ask you, what builds? then you say “I dont know what build my group were using”.
You like to claim a lot of things, but you never bring data to backup it up.

Ive covered all of your points many times over in this and other threads.

The reality is I’m not going to give you the data you say is critical to the argument because:

• I don’t remember the builds of everyone in these groups because – as I stated THE FIRST TIME – we wanted to keep the game open to many different builds and playstyles, so – so, outside of making sure core roles were filled (tanks, healers, condi when needed) for the most part I never knew them (and it was almost a year ago – use some common sense).

• It isn’t critical to the argument AT ALL. Different people play the game differently. It isnt about the numbers and builds for everyone. That is the whole point of an easier mode – so that people not obsessed with the math of the game can still enjoy it.

I know you see the issue here – even if you dont want to publicly admit it. This is common sense stuff. Not everyone plays the game with a calculator and spreadsheet to determine the most “efficient” path. Some find fun in the diverse builds, the fun (for them) mechanics, the friendships they form with their guildees, etc.

And, for the 1000th time, there is nothing wrong with wanting raids to be a part of that experience – especially (and I try really hard to always emphasize this) WHEN IT WOULDN’T TAKE ANYTHING AWAY FROM THE CHALLENGING PART OF THE RAID EXPERIENCE.

It may be that we are speaking two different languages here – that we will never get the point the other is trying to make because we are approaching the topic from very different perspectives. That is fine. It is also why I’m gonna bow out of this continual back and forth loop with you now.

So, please try to temper the insults – they really don’t help your case at all – and only serve to turn what should be a level headed discussion into something else entirely.

I may revisit this thread, but not this particular back and forth. It really has played out.

Moonyeti.3296:

In short, i’d love to see a LFR type of raid mode, but only if it is a reasonable request for the devs to implement.

Agreed. It really is as simple as this.

And I do think it’s reasonable.

In the last wing, they added challenge motes – something most hardcore raiders didn’t ask for and didn’t really enjoy.

For what I think would be comparable effort, they could have made the harder versions the baseline and used the time spent on the motes to implement the easier version – either through motes or a separate instance. I dont see how it would have been any more time intensive than what they spent on the CM versions (a mechanic that, again, most raiders didnt care for anyway) – and it would have met this need well.

Blaeys.3102:

Moonyeti.3296:

In short, i’d love to see a LFR type of raid mode, but only if it is a reasonable request for the devs to implement.

Agreed. It really is as simple as this.

And I do think it’s reasonable.

In the last wing, they added challenge motes – something most hardcore raiders didn’t ask for and didn’t really enjoy.

For what I think would be comparable effort, they could have made the harder versions the baseline and used the time spent on the motes to implement the easier version – either through motes or a separate instance. I dont see how it would have been any more time intensive than what they spent on the CM versions (a mechanic that, again, most raiders didnt care for anyway) – and it would have met this need well.

I agree that it probably is reasonable, I just hate to speak on behalf of the devs because I myself worked on a MMO dev team for years and know firsthand how sometimes things that should be simple are not for a million different reasons. But I also wasn’t aware of the challenge mote in the newer wing, I haven’t been in there yet. That does imply that they could do something similar to implement an easier raid mode by doing the reverse with the motes.

Vayne.8563:

Because games should be all about effort? Depends on how you define effort. There are different types of effort. Some people are really uncomfortable playing in groups, but they’ll grind until their fingers fall off. That’s a type of effort too.

Intensity is effort but so is endurance. The difference is, people who are grinders could get rewards prior to this at least most of the rewards. Legendary weapon, you could get it if you wanted to grind, even if you weren’t very good. You had a path to that reward.

Now, it’s not so simple to have a path to those rewards. You say well why should you get those rewards, you’re not working as hard as these other people. Maybe some of us didn’t buy this game to work. Maybe some of us bought the game to have fun and Anet keeps moving the bar on what we have to do to get those rewards, which is the opposite of fun.

No one ever accused me of not putting effort into this game. That’s very different from saying I’m going to like or enjoy raids. What you’re essentially saying is I should do something I don’t enjoy for hours to get a reward that I can’t get any other way. A reward that wasn’t in the game, in a type of content that wasn’t in the game. That’s a very different story.

I really dislike when people make it sound like I’m just lazy or I don’t want to make sacrifices. That’s not true. However, I do want to have fun playing a game I purchased.

If I read you correctly, you want a different path to L. Armor because you don’t really want to raid. I actually support that as long as it’s a different skin. I say that because we both know that a lot of players will not repeat content absent rewards. ANet has to offer something. To me, skins are a much better choice than the stat creep of gear progression.

Raids are far from the only content that offers exclusive rewards. ANet has been pushing content-specific rewards at players since launch. However, L. Items are the pinnacle of endgame rewards in GW2. Little else is as grindy. In a game that offers cosmetics as the major endgame reward, no other cosmetics have received as much emphasis from both the players and ANet. It was , imo, a mistake to offer them exclusively. Now, if their long term plan is to offer different L. Armor elsewhere, that would cover my concern. It might not cover yours, if only because Anet produces armor skins at the speed of your friendly neighborhood glacier.

My beef about effort is not directed at you. I was responding to a specific statement saying that some players seem to expect to waltz into any random group on the LFG and be accepted. That’s the lack of effort I was referring to. Call it meta effort if you prefer, since both finding like-minded players and learning about content is a step outside actually playing that content.

To me, the subtext for that type of player is, “Why should I try to find groups that might actually want what I bring? My convenience is more important than anyone else’s!” Unless I’m badly mistaken, that’s not you.

Blaeys.3102:

…Not everyone plays the game with a calculator and spreadsheet to determine the most “efficient” path. Some find fun in the diverse builds, the fun (for them) mechanics, the friendships they form with their guildees, etc.

…And, for the 1000th time, there is nothing wrong with wanting raids to be a part of that experience – especially (and I try really hard to always emphasize this) WHEN IT WOULDN’T TAKE ANYTHING AWAY FROM THE CHALLENGING PART OF THE RAID EXPERIENCE.

I don’t follow that line of reasoning at all.

The value of adding raids to the game comes from offering a type of challenge that can’t be achieved in the rest of the game. The rest of the game needs to appeal to a wide cross-section of players; raids only need to appeal to one subset.

Fractals are already the content that can be done with whatever builds people want to bring. Raids are designed to require more attention (at least, initially). That’s fundamental to the brand.

It’s a tiny fraction of the game, a tiny fraction of the dev resources. I simply don’t see that there’s an issue that requires ANet to create an easier version.

Some people is genuinely interested in the story and gameplay experience, and not just in the rewards. Maybe we are few, but we do exist.

To this day I have problems doing dungeons because people want to skip the movies even though I put in the LFG that we will see the movies.

To this day I haven’t find a real PUG that would overcome the Vale Guardian. And to use the solved instance from another group feels just miserable and incomplete.

Asking for an easier tier for Raids with less rewards (Or without them, I DONT MIND!) is a legitimate plea.

Healix.5819:

An easy mode raid should be what everyone wants, except for those not wanting raids period.

Do you like raids? You should want to see an easy mode as it’ll greatly increase the participation and thus justify further development. There probably would have been a lot more dungeons today if they scaled for 1+.

See WoW. Raiding was originally less than 1% back in the hardcore days prior to WotLK. With LFR, raiding is now completed by the majority, where normal raiding is around 20% and hard mode progression raiding a fraction of that. The simple truth is, most people play for fun, solo and don’t want to waste their time. LFR is just that, where you simply queue up and win. If GW2 offered that, where you could earn the same rewards and just take 10x longer to earn them, it’d certainly be far more popular. To differentiate, actual raids could simply offer different cosmetics, like how SAB TM has colored weapons.

I’m sorry, but this is a bunch of nonsense. Someone already pointed out that WoW is a raid-centric game, so you’re comparing apples and oranges. Furthermore, it’s more than doubtful whether LFR or similar bullkitten benefits the more serious raiding community. Judging from the WoW experience, where it just spoiled most of the community and left hardly any ambitious players moving up the ladder, I doubt it. I won’t even get started on the 1% …

Ardid.7203:

To this day I haven’t find a real PUG that would overcome the Vale Guardian. And to use the solved instance from another group feels just miserable and incomplete.

Well, maybe this is the real problem. The VG (and the whole first wing) is not the easiest Raid, but everyone must start here, because of the collection opening.
The evolution of raids in time was as follows:

Wing 1 (VG, Gorse, Sabetha) = hard
Wing 2 (Sloth,…,Mathias) = even harder
Wing 3 (Escort, KC, Xera) = tamed a bit, IMHO easier than Wing 1
Wing 4 = part is easy, part is hard with challenge mode added

IMHO this approach was wrong from the beginning. They should start with Wing 1 as an easiest part of raids, slightly harder than dungeons/fractals (maybe only green rings without teleports and Seekers) and progresively add more mechanics etc. in subsequent wings.

I remeber when we was trying the VG for the first time with our guild. After two hours of trying, we did the first split phase and it took almost four hours to kill this kitten for the first time. Couple of peoples from our guild was so tired that they decided to quit raiding forever.
Rest of us is raiding more or less regulary, but we are doing mostly VG with beginners from our guild (for collection), skipping Gorse and Sabetha and the whole Wing 2 and doing Wing 3 and part of Wing 4.

CptAurellian.9537:

Furthermore, it’s more than doubtful whether LFR or similar bullkitten benefits the more serious raiding community.

It’s unlikely to happen because raids are not the game’s focus, plus they had a very specific purpose, but LFR would mean a majority interest and thus warrant increased development. If participation is too low, ArenaNet’s simply going to cut resources, where you might see 1 per expansion and likely strung out.

CptAurellian.9537:

I won’t even get started on the 1% …

https://eu.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/7860746695?page=2#post-36

I’m not sure how many people here played Elder Scrolls Online and even had the pleasure to do trials (raids) there. In the beginning just like here they were hard content for organized groups. Only a few did them. Then later on they redesigned the system. Trials had a normal and veteran mode (+ hardmode on either for extra challenge). Normal mode opened the trials up for pugs, and they were totally doable. Those who wanted to lore got it. Loot was decent too, the only difference was that you could get jewelry on a higher tier level than on normal mode (think like exotic for normal, ascended for veteran but tbh the difference was truly minimal). People can get the same sets, and those who want the challenge can do veteran mode. It truly worked well.

As for GW2, I believe this is a direction they could take. It is the best of both worlds, it caters to the casual and the veteran/hardcore raiders as well. I believe getting legendary armor should be faster on “veteran” mode, but having it available on “normal” mode too would please most players (I assume).

IndigoSundown.5419:

Vayne.8563:

snip

Intensity is effort but so is endurance. The difference is, people who are grinders could get rewards prior to this at least most of the rewards. Legendary weapon, you could get it if you wanted to grind, even if you weren’t very good. You had a path to that reward.

Now, it’s not so simple to have a path to those rewards. You say well why should you get those rewards, you’re not working as hard as these other people. Maybe some of us didn’t buy this game to work. Maybe some of us bought the game to have fun and Anet keeps moving the bar on what we have to do to get those rewards, which is the opposite of fun.

No one ever accused me of not putting effort into this game. That’s very different from saying I’m going to like or enjoy raids. What you’re essentially saying is I should do something I don’t enjoy for hours to get a reward that I can’t get any other way. A reward that wasn’t in the game, in a type of content that wasn’t in the game. That’s a very different story.

I really dislike when people make it sound like I’m just lazy or I don’t want to make sacrifices. That’s not true. However, I do want to have fun playing a game I purchased.

If I read you correctly, you want a different path to L. Armor because you don’t really want to raid. I actually support that as long as it’s a different skin. I say that because we both know that a lot of players will not repeat content absent rewards. ANet has to offer something. To me, skins are a much better choice than the stat creep of gear progression.

Raids are far from the only content that offers exclusive rewards. ANet has been pushing content-specific rewards at players since launch. However, L. Items are the pinnacle of endgame rewards in GW2. Little else is as grindy. In a game that offers cosmetics as the major endgame reward, no other cosmetics have received as much emphasis from both the players and ANet. It was , imo, a mistake to offer them exclusively. Now, if their long term plan is to offer different L. Armor elsewhere, that would cover my concern. It might not cover yours, if only because Anet produces armor skins at the speed of your friendly neighborhood glacier.

My beef about effort is not directed at you. I was responding to a specific statement saying that some players seem to expect to waltz into any random group on the LFG and be accepted. That’s the lack of effort I was referring to. Call it meta effort if you prefer, since both finding like-minded players and learning about content is a step outside actually playing that content.

To me, the subtext for that type of player is, “Why should I try to find groups that might actually want what I bring? My convenience is more important than anyone else’s!” Unless I’m badly mistaken, that’s not you.

Well again, the problem is a lot of players, not a few, but quite a few, have trouble functioning within groups. That’s a completely different type of skill you bring to the table and until recently, it wasn’t quiet as bad.

I mean it’s far easier to find four other people you can gel with than 9 other people.

My guild is slowly working through the escort right now. We’ve gotten to the fourth tower. We’ve yet to have the same people show up twice in a row, and we don’t have enough back ups. Some people raiding with us are clickers. Some people raiding with us have worse connections than other people. It’s disheartening.

We only do this a couple of hours a week. I saw a post on reddit where some raider was telling us that the escort is a bit harder than other dynamic events in the game. They left off the part where those who die can’t be rezzed. They left off the part where you can’t use a revive orb even. Or boosters.

Whether you believe me or not, I could raid. I have the ability to raid. If it was something I enjoyed, I’d be doing it. But it’s not something I enjoy, nor is telling people in the guild they’re not good enough to join is, which is sometimes the case. Up until now, I could get people through fractals and dungeons, but this is a different level. And it takes me not only out of my comfort zone it takes the entire guild out of it’s comfort zone. There are people who feel like second class citizens because they can’t join us. Some are older. Some have health issues. Some have slow computers. Some have bad connections.

At the end of the day, my guild would likely be happier and stronger if raids weren’t in the game. And I know I’m not the only guild going through this because I’ve seen posts from other guilds that have gone through it and I’ve talked to people in the game who have had similar experiences. Sure I could completely ignore raids. But you always have to keep your head tilted at a certain angle. And once animated legendary armor is out there, they’ll be harder to ignore.

Vayne.8563:

Well again, the problem is a lot of players, not a few, but quite a few, have trouble functioning within groups. That’s a completely different type of skill you bring to the table and until recently, it wasn’t quiet as bad.

I mean it’s far easier to find four other people you can gel with than 9 other people.

My guild is slowly working through the escort right now. We’ve gotten to the fourth tower. We’ve yet to have the same people show up twice in a row, and we don’t have enough back ups. Some people raiding with us are clickers. Some people raiding with us have worse connections than other people. It’s disheartening.

We only do this a couple of hours a week. I saw a post on reddit where some raider was telling us that the escort is a bit harder than other dynamic events in the game. They left off the part where those who die can’t be rezzed. They left off the part where you can’t use a revive orb even. Or boosters.

Whether you believe me or not, I could raid. I have the ability to raid. If it was something I enjoyed, I’d be doing it. But it’s not something I enjoy, nor is telling people in the guild they’re not good enough to join is, which is sometimes the case. Up until now, I could get people through fractals and dungeons, but this is a different level. And it takes me not only out of my comfort zone it takes the entire guild out of it’s comfort zone. There are people who feel like second class citizens because they can’t join us. Some are older. Some have health issues. Some have slow computers. Some have bad connections.

At the end of the day, my guild would likely be happier and stronger if raids weren’t in the game. And I know I’m not the only guild going through this because I’ve seen posts from other guilds that have gone through it and I’ve talked to people in the game who have had similar experiences. Sure I could completely ignore raids. But you always have to keep your head tilted at a certain angle. And once animated legendary armor is out there, they’ll be harder to ignore.

I don’t know whether raids will be good for the overall health of the game in the long run. I don’t know how many players will leave because they can’t get L. Armor, or want to see the raids but cannot for whatever reason. Yeah, I get your point. I guess I’ve gotten used to having to ignore a lot of the game. Thing for me is, while I do ignore significant portions of GW2, I would pretty much ignore vastly greater amounts of every multi-player game I’ve played except for the original GW. That’s why I’m sort of still around.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Vayne.8563:

Well again, the problem is a lot of players, not a few, but quite a few, have trouble functioning within groups. That’s a completely different type of skill you bring to the table and until recently, it wasn’t quiet as bad.

I mean it’s far easier to find four other people you can gel with than 9 other people.

My guild is slowly working through the escort right now. We’ve gotten to the fourth tower. We’ve yet to have the same people show up twice in a row, and we don’t have enough back ups. Some people raiding with us are clickers. Some people raiding with us have worse connections than other people. It’s disheartening.

We only do this a couple of hours a week. I saw a post on reddit where some raider was telling us that the escort is a bit harder than other dynamic events in the game. They left off the part where those who die can’t be rezzed. They left off the part where you can’t use a revive orb even. Or boosters.

Whether you believe me or not, I could raid. I have the ability to raid. If it was something I enjoyed, I’d be doing it. But it’s not something I enjoy, nor is telling people in the guild they’re not good enough to join is, which is sometimes the case. Up until now, I could get people through fractals and dungeons, but this is a different level. And it takes me not only out of my comfort zone it takes the entire guild out of it’s comfort zone. There are people who feel like second class citizens because they can’t join us. Some are older. Some have health issues. Some have slow computers. Some have bad connections.

At the end of the day, my guild would likely be happier and stronger if raids weren’t in the game. And I know I’m not the only guild going through this because I’ve seen posts from other guilds that have gone through it and I’ve talked to people in the game who have had similar experiences. Sure I could completely ignore raids. But you always have to keep your head tilted at a certain angle. And once animated legendary armor is out there, they’ll be harder to ignore.

I don’t know whether raids will be good for the overall health of the game in the long run. I don’t know how many players will leave because they can’t get L. Armor, or want to see the raids but cannot for whatever reason. Yeah, I get your point. I guess I’ve gotten used to having to ignore a lot of the game. Thing for me is, while I do ignore significant portions of GW2, I would pretty much ignore vastly greater amounts of every multi-player game I’ve played except for the original GW. That’s why I’m sort of still around.

I’m probably overstating my case because I have seen a drop in interest with some people in my guild and it’s blamed not necessarily on raids, but on overall game difficulty. I would imagine my guild is pretty average, over all. I don’t think most people who play games are necessarily good gamers. We have a mix in my guild that I think (but I could be fooling myself) represents are fair cross section of the playerbase.

I have people who want to do the hardest content and people who’s highlight of the day is the center farm in Hirathi (not the new one lol).

I mean, my reaction is from seeing the reaction of other people and being unhappy with it. I personally still play the same game (more or less) that I always have, but I can see how I’d have to keep putting increased effort in to get the same rewards and yeah, that worries me. But it also might just be chicken little yelling the sky is falling. The problem is I don’t know, so I come here to express what I see happening.

I’m actually calmer after reading this thread and thinking maybe it’s not as bad as I’d originally thought it was. I guess time will tell.

I’d be happier if income wasn’t sliding in quarterly reports, but there’s no way I can say categorically that what I’m seeing is the cause of that. It could be just a case of confirmation bias.

I hope the next expansion finds a better middle ground than HOT did. And I hope we never have that long content drought again, because I’m sure that contributed to the current situation.

I didn’t read all the posts, and I imagine I’m just going to repeat what most people are saying: I hate raiding. When I first started playing WoW leveling was painfully slow (just before BC dropped), leveling WAS the game. Now it’s all about raiding, if you’re not raiding, you’re not playing the game. What I liked when I started with GW 2 was that there weren’t raids, the game was dynamic content, whomping the Champions (from what I’ve seen). Lower-level zones actually had PLAYERS, lots of them! Not ghost-zones like in WoW that when you’re leveling an alt you feel like you’re playing the game by yourself. I bought HoT without a second thought because I thought “well, I’ve liked everything else in this game.” I hate raiding, games are supposed to be fun, not a life-style. Someone mentioned DPS meters are coming? Even worse.

Shauma.5470:

I didn’t read all the posts, and I imagine I’m just going to repeat what most people are saying: I hate raiding. When I first started playing WoW leveling was painfully slow (just before BC dropped), leveling WAS the game. Now it’s all about raiding, if you’re not raiding, you’re not playing the game. What I liked when I started with GW 2 was that there weren’t raids, the game was dynamic content, whomping the Champions (from what I’ve seen). Lower-level zones actually had PLAYERS, lots of them! Not ghost-zones like in WoW that when you’re leveling an alt you feel like you’re playing the game by yourself. I bought HoT without a second thought because I thought “well, I’ve liked everything else in this game.” I hate raiding, games are supposed to be fun, not a life-style. Someone mentioned DPS meters are coming? Even worse.

Fortunately raiding is not the focus of the game here as you describe it is in WoW. Play the content you enjoy and don’t worry about the fact that others are doing the same.

Healix.5819:

CptAurellian.9537:

Furthermore, it’s more than doubtful whether LFR or similar bullkitten benefits the more serious raiding community.

It’s unlikely to happen because raids are not the game’s focus, plus they had a very specific purpose, but LFR would mean a majority interest and thus warrant increased development. If participation is too low, ArenaNet’s simply going to cut resources, where you might see 1 per expansion and likely strung out.

CptAurellian.9537:

I won’t even get started on the 1% …

https://eu.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/7860746695?page=2#post-36

A PR-statement about item rarity distribution is not a valid prove for your claim. Actually he uses it the same way you used it, to polarize his audience and hopes more people will like this decision in the end.
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/9573318028 here is a discussion about your quoted statement. 1% was the end raid, not raiding in general.

elrin.4750:

I’m a new player, don’t have an 80 yet. Reading the forums and reddit it seems HoT is ‘L2P or GTFO’.

Still enjoying the core game, but not looking forward to HoT.

Only way is to find out for yourself. Tbh, there is a lot to enjoy with HoT. Many of the complaints you see on the forums and reddit were from the same people that were complaining that “the game needs something new” or “anet needs to shake things up” a year ago. Raiding has brought another reason to log in regularly to a good portion of the community. Don’t worry if you’re not into raiding. There is still a TON to do, and people are super helpful in the HoT zones as well

Miellyn.6847:

1% was the end raid, not raiding in general.

Which is what I referring to, specifically the completion of raids during their original release.

If you want more statistics, here’s another quick google, which shows the difference in participation between the different modes:

http://www.mmo-champion.com/content/4924-Blackrock-Foundry-Stats-Blue-Tweets-Setup-of-the-Month-Symmetra-Gameplay
http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/1745139-Armory-Stats-Highmaul-and-Blackrock-Foundry-Blue-Tweets-Heroes-Map-Rift-Wardrobe

~50% LFR, ~30% normal, ~20% heroic and ~3% mythic with <1% cleared

Not to look at GW2 with rose-tinted spectacles, but I think Heart of Thorns was the “difficult second album”.

Vanilla was great – simple but brilliant – like a good debut album.

Having become virtuosos at their jobs, the developers made the follow-up an overcomplicated mess.

Healix.5819:

Miellyn.6847:

1% was the end raid, not raiding in general.

Which is what I referring to, specifically the completion of raids during their original release.

If you want more statistics, here’s another quick google, which shows the difference in participation between the different modes:

http://www.mmo-champion.com/content/4924-Blackrock-Foundry-Stats-Blue-Tweets-Setup-of-the-Month-Symmetra-Gameplay
http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/1745139-Armory-Stats-Highmaul-and-Blackrock-Foundry-Blue-Tweets-Heroes-Map-Rift-Wardrobe

~50% LFR, ~30% normal, ~20% heroic and ~3% mythic with <1% cleared

GW2 raids are nowhere near mythic in WoW, they are considered between normal and heroic, so we get 20-30% participation. Thats fine for the small team that develops raids.
You also can’t compare mythic to the old 1 difficulty setting.

Quozex.9430:

Vayne.8563:

You obviously don’t know how reddit works. The posts don’t get deleted. They get downvoted. THe hard core guys look at posts, think I know this or I know taht and they downvote. Unless you’re looking at reddit 24/7, you’re going to miss stuff. The stuff that gets upvoted that stays on the first page is more about hard core stuff generally.

Even if you go to the new page, stuff gets downvoted pretty fast. People don’t really want fun discussions they want serious discussions. But of course if people downvote just to keep the stuff they’re interested in on the first page and those people are mostly hard core guys, then that’s what most people will see.

The official forums, in my opinion aren’t as good as reddit for a lot of reasons.

How often do you visit reddit because from this response it doesn’t seem like it’s often. Front page posts are likely to rotate out daily because of all the other topics being posted and even then the MAJORITY of them are much less serious than you are making them out to be.

I’m gunna list out what is currently on the front page of reddit just for you.

• Fulff post about chuka and champawat IV and some dudes cats
• Fluff post about some guys revenant being a frog
• Fluff post about someone wanting to move the mithril ore node over in the home instance
• a post about the mass dc last night
• Fluff post about the dude in the well in Lake Doric
• Update to the Hearts and Minds instance
• A 6 MAN DEIMOS KILL
• Asuran fan art (which is lovely)
• A post literally discusing open world builds
• Upgrading to HoT
• Duels in WvW
• PSA about killing things too quickly in Solid Ocean fractal
• A post praising the Obsidian Sanctum JP
• Gem store post
• SAB hype
• Returning players questions
• PvP post about Mallyx rev
• WoodenPotatoes latest video
• 4 year anniversary about removing culling from WvW
• Necro solo fractal 97
• More Gemstore
• An interesting look into hackers

It must really suck having 1 post about raids and 1 post about fractals on the front page of reddit. It must seriously consume you to look at disgust as anyone that researches Guild Wars 2 sees the entire community talking about a variety of topics.

Stop spreading miss information about the game simply because you dislike a very small part of its content. That content being some of the best Gw2 has seen along with Nightmare 100cm. Having those few options for the veteran players keeps those players invested at no cost to any-other, unless you’d rather have the raid team working on gemstore skins…

To anyone else talking about restaurants there is obviously demand for a certain product and Anet is willing to cater to it. There is a reason it hasn’t been discontinued yet and I can guarantee it’s not because a vocal minority dislike raids. Anet has the numbers and they can decide whats best for their game and not a few people on their forums.

Thx for posting that I was just about to do the exact same thing.
—> Today (2017/03/16 10:22 GMT) literally one!!!! raid related post. The rest is open world stuff, pvp or fluff
Edit: oh and of course the mandatory “i love this game”, “im new here” and “what class should i play” posts

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

I don’t follow that line of reasoning at all.

The value of adding raids to the game comes from offering a type of challenge that can’t be achieved in the rest of the game. The rest of the game needs to appeal to a wide cross-section of players; raids only need to appeal to one subset.

Fractals are already the content that can be done with whatever builds people want to bring. Raids are designed to require more attention (at least, initially). That’s fundamental to the brand.

It’s a tiny fraction of the game, a tiny fraction of the dev resources. I simply don’t see that there’s an issue that requires ANet to create an easier version.

That could be true if raids were introduced as some kind of side content. Problem is, they are introduced and promoted as an ultimate PvE endgame.
Dungeons are abandoned. Fractals are no more “GW2-style ultimate PvE endgame” as Anet promised when they abandoned dungeons, but instead “stepping stones to raid” now. Lore? Anet sees no problem with introducing lore story lines in raids now. Content? Raids got 4 wings, fractals got 2 fractals, and dungeons got… well, you know. Rewards? Yay, they added a second set of fractal skins, which is retextured first one, and one legendary backpack, against 3 full sets of legendary armor, White Mantle weaponry and other unique skins.
Even almost all PvE balance changes are being made based on raid feedback now.
A lot of people have a feeling that Anet is promoting raids as their new and only PvE endgame now. That’s why raid threads are so numerous, and so many people are concerned. It doesn’t looks like side activity.

One funny thing about this post.
The people that are saying that GW2 lost its identity are asking for things like LFR from WoW, which means they want GW2 to copy another game, such Hypocrisy.

If you played Guild Wars 1 since the its launch until now you know what is unique to GW frenchise and its identity:

- The skill bar with only 8 skills that you can change. Both GW1 and GW2 have it.
- You can change traits any time there is no such thing as skill reset npc. In GW1 the traits are the attribute points.
- No Gear Trendmill, once you get the best gear you got it forever even if you come back after 2 expansions.
- All kind of content, easy and very hard content, but not all content have different difficulty options.

So yeah GW2 is keeping true to the frenchise ideology. But the moment they implement such things like LFR is the moment GW gave up to its core philosophy.

OnizukaBR.8537:

One funny thing about this post.
The people that are saying that GW2 lost its identity are asking for things like LFR from WoW, which means they want GW2 to copy another game, such Hypocrisy.

If you played Guild Wars 1 since the its launch until now you know what is unique to GW frenchise and its identity:

- The skill bar with only 8 skills that you can change. Both GW1 and GW2 have it.
- You can change traits any time there is no such thing as skill reset npc. In GW1 the traits are the attribute points.
- No Gear Trendmill, once you get the best gear you got it forever even if you come back after 2 expansions.
- All kind of content, easy and very hard content, but not all content have different difficulty options.

So yeah GW2 is keeping true to the frenchise ideology. But the moment they implement such things like LFR is the moment GW gave up to its core philosophy.

If they were keeping true to the franchise identity you’d be able to buy the rewards for in game gold from other players, like tormented weapons. I mean you didn’t really have to farm ectos to get chaos gloves. You could farm feathers and buy them. Guild Wars 1 didn’t alienate casual players by making most in game rewards, at least as far as skins go, unavailable. Everyone could just tick away at something and eventually buy a voltaic spear, a celestial compass, a frog scepter, a bonecage scythe.

If this was truly the successor to Guild Wars 1 it wouldn’t lock out the casual players from those rewards. It worked in Guild Wars 1, and people are such champions of that game, I don’t see why it wouldn’t work here.

Vayne.8563:

OnizukaBR.8537:

One funny thing about this post.
The people that are saying that GW2 lost its identity are asking for things like LFR from WoW, which means they want GW2 to copy another game, such Hypocrisy.

If you played Guild Wars 1 since the its launch until now you know what is unique to GW frenchise and its identity:

- The skill bar with only 8 skills that you can change. Both GW1 and GW2 have it.
- You can change traits any time there is no such thing as skill reset npc. In GW1 the traits are the attribute points.
- No Gear Trendmill, once you get the best gear you got it forever even if you come back after 2 expansions.
- All kind of content, easy and very hard content, but not all content have different difficulty options.

So yeah GW2 is keeping true to the frenchise ideology. But the moment they implement such things like LFR is the moment GW gave up to its core philosophy.

If they were keeping true to the franchise identity you’d be able to buy the rewards for in game gold from other players, like tormented weapons. I mean you didn’t really have to farm ectos to get chaos gloves. You could farm feathers and buy them. Guild Wars 1 didn’t alienate casual players by making most in game rewards, at least as far as skins go, unavailable. Everyone could just tick away at something and eventually buy a voltaic spear, a celestial compass, a frog scepter, a bonecage scythe.

If this was truly the successor to Guild Wars 1 it wouldn’t lock out the casual players from those rewards. It worked in Guild Wars 1, and people are such champions of that game, I don’t see why it wouldn’t work here.

The only thing you cant buy from tp are game mode related things.
You can’t buy pvp exclusive stuff
You can’t buy fractal exclusive stuff
You can’t buy wvw exclusive stuff (if there is something like that)
You can’t by raid excluse stuff
And you can’t buy the HoT legendary weapons
Thats it.

Everything else can be bought for gold or gems.

If there were no game mode exclusive stuff much fewer people would play that stuff
(just ask the pvp guys)

You are hiding behind the casual argument but thats nonsense. I am casual. I play how i want and when i want. Still i manage to work on everything i want in game.