Guild Wars 2

OniGiri.9461:

Vayne.8563:

Actually they’re not. They’re about half that level. That is to say the last three quarters have been the lowest this game has ever earned. That situation hasn’t existed until now. I’m not really concerned about the numbers, because now that the game has moved to an expansion model, that will be the norm. Drops between expansions and more money during the expansion.

But I do hope the next expansion is better received than HoT was.

Discussing with you is so exhausting. You keep flip floping on your arguments its not even funny…

How do you find it exhausting that I’m replying directly to a statement you made, in the post I’m replying to.

You said that Guild Wars is producing as much money as they did before the expansion came out. It’s factually not true. I’ve said all along, income is less than it was, and now you’re saying it wasn’t.

If anything, you’re defending a pro-raiding point of view, without even acknowledging that someone else might feel differently. That’s exhausting.

You’ve said HoT is only a little harder than the open world and we know plenty of people don’t find this so. Now you said the company is doing as well as it was before HoT launched, which is factually not true.

Not sure how responding to what you’re saying is exhausting.

Legendary Grenth.3561:

Throwing my two cents in here, I have to agree with OP here. I have been playing Guildwars since factions came out. I liked how the world was instanced at first, made me feel like I was actually doing quests and stuff was happening in my world. Parties and community mattered, then heroes came along and everyone abandoned everyone for preference of controlling AI with OP builds. The community died, and became a grind fest.

Now I loved the core GW2, HoT fell short for me and I have never done a raid but am interested, however. With the updates that are being thrown in and pushing endgame further and further into a grind I can no longer keep up or even keep and interest in the game anymore. LS3 is just one big grind now, I hate it, it’s annoying and boring killing the same mobs over and over, there is no substance and no actual questing being done like in the beginning. GW2 is becoming just another kittenty MMO imho, I barely even log on to make the daily log on rewards now, when I was so excited for LS3.
Dungeons which were one of my favourite things to do are pretty much on life support and the way raids are headed, I will never be able to learn / keep up unless I dedicate all my time to it just to try it, that is if I can find anyone willing to take me on as a super casual student.

I agree with OP here, GW2 has lost its identity as a game that’s different, which is sad because it came out with so much potential.

This is basically my feeling about how the game has progressed recently as well. Though I admit that I also semi-ragequit after the introduction of Ascended gear when they broke their promise about not needing extreme grind or additional gear tiers for various content. That was probably the first sign to me that things gw2 was probably not going to live up to what was promised way back in development.

Vayne.8563:

Vayne.8563:

Actually they’re not. They’re about half that level. That is to say the last three quarters have been the lowest this game has ever earned. That situation hasn’t existed until now. I’m not really concerned about the numbers, because now that the game has moved to an expansion model, that will be the norm. Drops between expansions and more money during the expansion.

But I do hope the next expansion is better received than HoT was.

How do you find it exhausting that I’m replying directly to a statement you made, in the post I’m replying to.

You said that Guild Wars is producing as much money as they did before the expansion came out. It’s factually not true. I’ve said all along, income is less than it was, and now you’re saying it wasn’t.

If anything, you’re defending a pro-raiding point of view, without even acknowledging that someone else might feel differently. That’s exhausting.

You’ve said HoT is only a little harder than the open world and we know plenty of people don’t find this so. Now you said the company is doing as well as it was before HoT launched, which is factually not true.

Not sure how responding to what you’re saying is exhausting.

With the start of the discussion you stated that you were worried about the state the game is in and you tried to demonstrate that by referencing the current numbers.
Now (referencing your last statement) you are saying you are not worried. Fine. Since this is not adding to this threads conversation – ill drop it.

I’ll try to stay on topic for the rest of our discussions.

HoT-Difficulty: Well since i know plenty of people that say one thing and you know plenty of people that say another thing – how about we drop this?

Earnings: Pls stop spreading missinformation about that last part. I said:

“Dont panic about the numbers – you are reading too much into it.
The numbers were in a very similar state before they announced the expansion.”

This site is ncsofts offical earnings website: http://global.ncsoft.com/global/ir/earnings.aspx?BID=&BC=&BNo=&SYear=&SType=&SWord=&PNo=1

There you can check every quaterly earnings report. HoT was announced early 2015.
If you check the earning reports earlier than that you will see its about the same as it is now.

I think part of the issue is that ArenaNet has always been a little loose and lackadaisical when it comes to game direction. Just go to Divinity’s Reach and try to find the archery range the NPC has been giving us direction to for four and a half years now (not only did they never put the content in, but they have somehow – for the life of the game – forgotten about the characters – and even directional star – leading us to content that has never been there).

I’ve always been okay with that approach, because despite the ADHD style, they produced a game (in PVE) that I could enjoy with my entire guild – all of my friends – without worrying about playstyle, time commitment, etc.

I even loved HOT. The huge open world challenges were just right for me and my guild. We had a ton of hours having fun there (and still do every Sunday night as part of an organized effort to revisit group areas of the game).

The one PVE game mode that changed that was raids. And I truly believe that, because of the loose development style I talk about above, they didn’t stop to think about how this kind of content model would change the game.

I realize a lot of people don’t see it – but I firmly believe that is because they approach the game differently than those who do. They base their in game friendships/guilds/etc on skill at the game and a willingness to sacrifice form for function – and that is fine. For those people, raids are a good fit.

It isnt, however, how many formed their guilds/communities in the first years of the game. For us, raids represent a break from the core purpose of the game in PVE – to offer a fun place for us all to play together. And while some can argue that the rest of the game hasnt changed, I think that argument is shortsighted – raids in their current form have had a real impact on how many approach the game – through the “stepford wife” syndrome created by meta gameplay, a feeling of being left out of part of the story/experience/etc, through false airs of superiority emerging across both game chat and various forums, and so on.

That is the identity I feel has changed. And, while that is a personal definition of the term, I think it is one many share with me.

For us, the game is changing in a very negative way – but one that they could rectify very easily. How we identify (and identify with) the game is changing – and not for the better.

As a side note, I am glad Gaile took a critical look at this thread to keep it on track – and I like the idea that the developers recognize the importance of this conversation to many of us.

2Q14 to 3Q15 – average sales 20.6 billion KwN
2Q16 to 4Q16 – average sales 15.4 billion KwN

I agree with the OP, I feel that Guild Wars 2 is losing its identity. I come to this conclusion and discussion bringing the woes of an Engineer who has had his unique flamethrower build nerfed and out-power-creeped over the years when it was already a rare build. There are best in choice traits, the balance patches seem to create “Flavor of the month” builds. The developers took a year and a half to make a post in the engineer forum, and even then it was just to remove a dead link and a sticky of Beta Weekend 3…

I’m worried.

Blaeys.3102:

It isnt, however, how many formed their guilds/communities in the first years of the game. For us, raids represent a break from the core purpose of the game in PVE – to offer a fun place for us all to play together. And while some can argue that the rest of the game hasnt changed, I think that argument is shortsighted – raids in their current form have had a real impact on how many approach the game – through the “stepford wife” syndrome created by meta gameplay, a feeling of being left out of part of the story/experience/etc, through false airs of superiority emerging across both game chat and various forums, and so on.

You are of course entitled to have your own opinion. I don’t know of course how long you have been part of the guild wars 2 community but let me tell you as a veteran: meta and the exclusion that comes along with it has always been part of guild wars 2.
Maybe you avoided it so far – but it was always there. In dungeons and then later in fractals. People have always been excluded from that kind of content if they didnt run what was then known as the “optimal builds”. And there was always a favoured composition of running a group for specific content.

You are drawing a pink-colored past of guild wars 2 that is not realistic.

So can you pls explain what kind of behaviour raids introduced to the game that wasnt there already?

OniGiri.9461:

Blaeys.3102:

It isnt, however, how many formed their guilds/communities in the first years of the game. For us, raids represent a break from the core purpose of the game in PVE – to offer a fun place for us all to play together. And while some can argue that the rest of the game hasnt changed, I think that argument is shortsighted – raids in their current form have had a real impact on how many approach the game – through the “stepford wife” syndrome created by meta gameplay, a feeling of being left out of part of the story/experience/etc, through false airs of superiority emerging across both game chat and various forums, and so on.

You are of course entitled to have your own opinion. I don’t know of course how long you have been part of the guild wars 2 community but let me tell you as a veteran: meta and the exclusion that comes along with it has always been part of guild wars 2.
Maybe you avoided it so far – but it was always there. In dungeons and then later in fractals. People have always been excluded from that kind of content if they didnt run what was then known as the “optimal builds”. And there was always a favoured composition of running a group for specific content.

You are drawing a pink-colored past of guild wars 2 that is not realistic.

So can you pls explain what kind of behaviour raids introduced to the game that wasnt there already?

None of what you said holds any water at all

Fractals weren’t there in the beginning and your dungeons/fractal exclusionary response was due to a small minority of the population. The dungeons were introduced through story mode an entry point for all levels for people to learn the map and layout. The rewards and prestige were all tied to tokens the elites could farm tokens faster for their rewards but the more casual runs would get the same rewards without being all gun ho all builds were viable.

Raids have no build up no entry no way to ease new players in it to get a taste and learn the lay of the land. You go in and you learn through death the trail and error path. New players can’t be eased in and their is no muddle your way slowly over time for them either. They took the elites that demanded zerker and gave them the keys for an entire mode to play.

If dungeons had a scale in difficulty a lower tier that a pug can muddle through for some extremely meager rewards to teach players the ins and outs then allowing those players to take steps on their own then maybe.

Aside the difference it painfully obvious that dps meters weren’t a thing back then.

Dungeons, Fractals, Pvp, and even WvW let the common player get their feet wet first while raids have no such thing and Anet even went as far to make official statement about dps meters allowing their usage. The very nature Anet chose to implement these raids is what changed the behavior of the game. None of it is anywhere near what this game was like at the start its a behavioral shift for the player base and the basic design of the game as a whole.

And that’s how they sold raids from day one. Learn through getting your party smashed. Video gaming of old where failure in timing results in starting again. That was their definition of “challenging”.

https://youtu.be/JLlCOrd-xQg?t=12m50s

And there is nothing wrong with that.

Katastroff.1045:

The game lost is ID?

I didnt know games could have wallets.

O.o

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/introducing-the-wallet/

Doam.8305:

OniGiri.9461:

Blaeys.3102:

It isnt, however, how many formed their guilds/communities in the first years of the game. For us, raids represent a break from the core purpose of the game in PVE – to offer a fun place for us all to play together. And while some can argue that the rest of the game hasnt changed, I think that argument is shortsighted – raids in their current form have had a real impact on how many approach the game – through the “stepford wife” syndrome created by meta gameplay, a feeling of being left out of part of the story/experience/etc, through false airs of superiority emerging across both game chat and various forums, and so on.

You are of course entitled to have your own opinion. I don’t know of course how long you have been part of the guild wars 2 community but let me tell you as a veteran: meta and the exclusion that comes along with it has always been part of guild wars 2.
Maybe you avoided it so far – but it was always there. In dungeons and then later in fractals. People have always been excluded from that kind of content if they didnt run what was then known as the “optimal builds”. And there was always a favoured composition of running a group for specific content.

You are drawing a pink-colored past of guild wars 2 that is not realistic.

So can you pls explain what kind of behaviour raids introduced to the game that wasnt there already?

None of what you said holds any water at all

Fractals weren’t there in the beginning and your dungeons/fractal exclusionary response was due to a small minority of the population. The dungeons were introduced through story mode an entry point for all levels for people to learn the map and layout. The rewards and prestige were all tied to tokens the elites could farm tokens faster for their rewards but the more casual runs would get the same rewards without being all gun ho all builds were viable.

Raids have no build up no entry no way to ease new players in it to get a taste and learn the lay of the land. You go in and you learn through death the trail and error path. New players can’t be eased in and their is no muddle your way slowly over time for them either. They took the elites that demanded zerker and gave them the keys for an entire mode to play.

If dungeons had a scale in difficulty a lower tier that a pug can muddle through for some extremely meager rewards to teach players the ins and outs then allowing those players to take steps on their own then maybe.

Aside the difference it painfully obvious that dps meters weren’t a thing back then.

Dungeons, Fractals, Pvp, and even WvW let the common player get their feet wet first while raids have no such thing and Anet even went as far to make official statement about dps meters allowing their usage. The very nature Anet chose to implement these raids is what changed the behavior of the game. None of it is anywhere near what this game was like at the start its a behavioral shift for the player base and the basic design of the game as a whole.

Since the argument was that RAIDS introduced some “game identity changing anamoly” my point that this behavior was already present before introducing them (in dungeons and fractals – which were here before raids) is correct!

Yes its true that raids have no story mode like dungeons or lower tier like fractals to ease you in. But thats not a mistake. Why would you need another instance based content like that? Fractals are already well implemented and fun content. And they can also help groups ease into raids since there are some fast paced, mechanic heavy ones now.

You should maybe refrain from presenting your opinions as facts.

There are 12 raid bosses with different difficulty levels now. Everyone can setup a group and jump into one of the easier ones and get their feet wet by wiping a couple of times.
No need for gearing correctly, meta-classes, meta-compositions, strategies, preperations, etc. Just jumping in and dying until you can kill it.

Isnt that how all video games work? Or how any other content works in Guild Wars?

OniGiri.9461:

Doam.8305:

OniGiri.9461:

Blaeys.3102:

Snip

snip

You are drawing a pink-colored past of guild wars 2 that is not realistic.

So can you pls explain what kind of behaviour raids introduced to the game that wasnt there already?

None of what you said holds any water at all

Fractals weren’t there in the beginning and your dungeons/fractal exclusionary response was due to a small minority of the population. The dungeons were introduced through story mode an entry point for all levels for people to learn the map and layout. The rewards and prestige were all tied to tokens the elites could farm tokens faster for their rewards but the more casual runs would get the same rewards without being all gun ho all builds were viable.

Raids have no build up no entry no way to ease new players in it to get a taste and learn the lay of the land. You go in and you learn through death the trail and error path. New players can’t be eased in and their is no muddle your way slowly over time for them either. They took the elites that demanded zerker and gave them the keys for an entire mode to play.

If dungeons had a scale in difficulty a lower tier that a pug can muddle through for some extremely meager rewards to teach players the ins and outs then allowing those players to take steps on their own then maybe.

Aside the difference it painfully obvious that dps meters weren’t a thing back then.

Dungeons, Fractals, Pvp, and even WvW let the common player get their feet wet first while raids have no such thing and Anet even went as far to make official statement about dps meters allowing their usage. The very nature Anet chose to implement these raids is what changed the behavior of the game. None of it is anywhere near what this game was like at the start its a behavioral shift for the player base and the basic design of the game as a whole.

Since the argument was that RAIDS introduced some “game identity changing anamoly” my point that this behavior was already present before introducing them (in dungeons and fractals – which were here before raids) is correct!

Yes its true that raids have no story mode like dungeons or lower tier like fractals to ease you in. But thats not a mistake. Why would you need another instance based content like that? Fractals are already well implemented and fun content. And they can also help groups ease into raids since there are some fast paced, mechanic heavy ones now.

You should maybe refrain from presenting your opinions as facts.

There are 12 raid bosses with different difficulty levels now. Everyone can setup a group and jump into one of the easier ones and get their feet wet by wiping a couple of times.
No need for gearing correctly, meta-classes, meta-compositions, strategies, preperations, etc. Just jumping in and dying until you can kill it.

Isnt that how all video games work? Or how any other content works in Guild Wars?

But my argument isn’t that raids themselves, all alone introduced a shift. I’m saying that raids are a visible indication of the shift. That is to say the game has become much harder, and because of that some people have drifted away.

Sure they can play the same zones they always played, but that’s not why most people buy an expansion. Those people who wanted to see the game expanded in size, but not in difficulty spend $50 on an expansion that didn’t cater to their needs. Of course they’re going to be upset.

I’ve said this many times but raids aren’t the reason people are annoyed with HoT. Raids are simply the most visual identifier mark, an easy target so to speak.

The game has gotten harder and more complex and more grindy in a number of says. At launch you could buy a legendary. You could grind gold and buy one. Now you can’t buy a legendary. That’s a shift.

Before you could take any old stupid build and get through the open world. That’s much much harder to do in HoT. That’s a shift.

The map complexity of HoT (which I love) is a shift.

The idea that hero points can’t be soloed is a shift.

The idea that you have to use timers to get to every meta in every zone and use LFG to make sure you’re on a populated map doing it, that’s a shift.

All by themselves, these changes don’t mean much. But when you add in the grind for the 10,000 drinks you need for the shoulders, or the grind for what you need for nightfury (the bat shoulders), suddenly casual players are feeling left out in the cold.

Now after HoT there was a long content drought punctuated by very visible raids and very visible PvP seasons.

I know I felt pretty left out. That has changed somewhat now with the new zones, but raids were there for 9 months as the only thing being released for PvE.

During that time, people defined what they believed HoT was about.

VaLee.5102:

I’ve played the game since LS1, quit a month after HoT released, and now I started playing again, and the more I played the more I realized how changed the game is now.
And by changed I don’t mean content, features or mechanics being shifted around or added, but the core of what GW2 used to be seems lost.

I came to GW2 after years of hardcore raiding in WoW, it was something new and different, and altho it wasn’t the “WoW killer” everyone expected it to be, it was fresh and interesting enough to be unique and have its own place in the crowded MMO world.
Everything was focused on cooperation, I was literally shocked by how nice the community was ingame compared to WoW, the content was designed for large numbers of players, etc…

Now, I don’t know anymore, it just feels like all those things are just there in the background, with GW2 now focusing on raids, and the community shifted massively with this change. That old content is still there ofc, but it’s just that, old content, that…it’s there.

- The amount of salt, elitism and player base split makes this game no different than any other MMO now, especially with meters being introduced to the game. Players will always choose to be first in a numbers competition over helping someone else. It’s the nature of competitive gameplay.
- You also now have mandatory holy trinity as well if you want to succeed in top tier content. Not needed for open world content, but like I said that content it’s either old or not really relevant. You don’t really need a holy trinity if you do old content in WoW either for example, or for mindlessly killing horses to skin them for leather.
- You don’t have any gear treadmill, but you now have the mastery treadmill if you want to succeed in end content, it’s like potayto/potahto, still a treadmill that will get obsolete eventually. Tell me how I can use the Itzel mastery in LS3 please, or the Exalted one, or the Nuhoch. Doubt they will be useful in any new content ever again. But you needed to get them because Anet gated some content behind those masteries, so they weren’t really optional. It’s the same as farming for a tier of gear that will get obsolete when the new fancy one appears, e.g. the new LS3 mastery track.
—-———————————————————


TLDR; What makes GW2 different than any other generic MMO right now?

How would you convince a WoW player for example to come and play GW2 today? Because I can’t think of anything else but “well it’s like WoW, but different…it has asuras instead of gnomes, and you don’t need 100 addons to be able to get into a raid…yet”

I 100% agree with it been playing 5 years i can now stop and can tell you this HoT broke the game in a way. For pve not so much but better. But for wvw and PvP it’s chaos. Skills were not hiting as hard like it is now (aka powercreep). Classes as before HoT was more skill play and the trait lines like leet specialization didn’t carry the player you actually had to be skilled as player. Now with the leet special trait it requires little to none to play. Also, good luck playing core now cause leet is broken vs core users.

I get it hought why they allow the state of the game. To bring in new players so they feel just as good as the vet players. So, now its been over a year… anet it’s time to tone it down or release a new trait for more skill play or make full core traits relevant again.

JTGuevara.9018:

Gw2 did take a different direction with HoT. Some good, some bad, some disastrous. HoT maps were good, for example. Yeah, they’re tougher than normal level 80 maps, but that’s fine. I don’t mind the extra challenge. Others won’t mind it either. Maps are core to this game. Players will eventually be accustomed to them.

However, I always thought raids were a bad idea. There’s just no way anyone can expect to keep players if you make content for 1% of the playerbase. I’m not against group content, I’m against group content being inaccessible to the majority.

Looking back, I have to ask: Why was the dungeon team disbanded? It saddens me that dungeon content is non-existent. Yes, at least we have fractals, but…why not dungeons too?

I’m curious about the next expansion, but I will tell you I am NOT gung-ho about it like I was with HoT. Thanks to HoT, pvp and wvw have all but been destroyed.

Good point I love to see the dungeons come back more. Raids does not interest me. I see that gate on the map and wish I can block the icon.

I know I felt pretty left out. That has changed somewhat now with the new zones, but raids were there for 9 months as the only thing being released for PvE.

During that time, people defined what they believed HoT was about.

True … ish. The raid release schedule was already predetermined during HoT development since it was a major feature. PvP is independent of PvE content delivery.

The delay in PvE content post HoT was the triage work that was done on HoT that we finally got with the Spring 2016 update nearly a year ago. That in turn pushed back the start of Season 3 of the living story to end of July.

And while we got the usual special events, SAB returned, They revamped the Shatterer. Allowed gliding in core Tyria (great advertising for HoT IMO). So it’s more like six months before we saw a significant update to PvE. Yes, nothing really “new” but remodeled with some of the sharp edges taken off.

But the biggest thing for me was MO stepping up and talking to us. Yes it was on reddit but it was a big step up from the hype train pre-HoT. Giving us an indication of when we will see major patches. A very plain delivery Vs pie-in-the-sky somewhat vague descriptions that HoT had.

OniGiri.9461:

Doam.8305:

OniGiri.9461:

Blaeys.3102:

So can you pls explain what kind of behaviour raids introduced to the game that wasnt there already?

.

Since the argument was that RAIDS introduced some “game identity changing anamoly” my point that this behavior was already present before introducing them (in dungeons and fractals – which were here before raids) is correct!

Yes its true that raids have no story mode like dungeons or lower tier like fractals to ease you in. But thats not a mistake. Why would you need another instance based content like that? Fractals are already well implemented and fun content. And they can also help groups ease into raids since there are some fast paced, mechanic heavy ones now.

You should maybe refrain from presenting your opinions as facts.

There are 12 raid bosses with different difficulty levels now. Everyone can setup a group and jump into one of the easier ones and get their feet wet by wiping a couple of times.
No need for gearing correctly, meta-classes, meta-compositions, strategies, preperations, etc. Just jumping in and dying until you can kill it.

Isnt that how all video games work? Or how any other content works in Guild Wars?

Dungeons have story mode WVW had mapping and roaming wall PVP has unranked and private sessions. Fractals of course have lower tiers that don’t even need agony resistance.

Raids have nothing I can do any of this it doesn’t get any more strait forward than this simple truth. All videogames have these basic entry steps the fact that so many bosses exist at this point only reaffirms that this is their current direction. Quoting multiple bosses is meaningless as dungeons, fractals, and even the various WVW lords exist. Raids do not act like any other content in guild wars the difficulty tiers seperate the toxic element from new people trying to enter a mode. The try Garda will be there say one with new raiders were in other modes they’d be seperate in ranked/explor/AR??/

The notion that mid and end bosses are akin to the modes that other aspects of the game have doesn’t fit either. That’s after the fact and not a basic introduction with people who will probably expect people to know the mechanics off the bat just like they would if they entered the raid in the current state. Basically no difference there is no difference for new people trying to get in and test the waters.

The behavior that was present before was offset by the larger positive aspects. Three dungeon posts may say zerker only but the other six took anyone and Anet didn’t encourage the behavior taking action to balance things around like buffing condi. These days without the basic entry the negativity isn’t offset at all. Anet even encourages them with the meter statement and since raids are there current push like esports prior they made it the face of the game. Even ascended gear was untouched after they nerfed the other modes. So the behavior is different because those negative aspects of the past were refined and given power. We had an official response on meters for raids could you imagine how bad zerker nuts of the past would have been if Anet supported them with an official thumbs up for meters.

Vayne.8563:

The idea that hero points can’t be soloed is a shift.

That and masteries were a big change in direction from the days of leveling however you wanted. Masteries shouldn’t have forced the content, the points should have been a way to speed up the process. To change it now, a repeatable track to earn one of the available points could be implemented for example. Likewise, the same could be done for hero challenges, then you could do whatever you wanted in HoT, as it was originally with core.

Healix.5819:

Vayne.8563:

The idea that hero points can’t be soloed is a shift.

That and masteries were a big change in direction from the days of leveling however you wanted. Masteries shouldn’t have forced the content, the points should have been a way to speed up the process. To change it now, a repeatable track to earn one of the available points could be implemented for example. Likewise, the same could be done for hero challenges, then you could do whatever you wanted in HoT, as it was originally with core.

I didn’t really have a problem with masteries. I threw on some boosters, and buffs, and had the ones I needed, pretty much before I knew it.

Just by doing event chains in VB I had most of the masteries I needed. It was almost seamless to me.

I think people who focus on only story as if story doesn’t include what’s going on in the zones, were annoyed the most by this.

Blaeys.3102:

In my opinion, it can almost all be linked back to how they have chosen to include raids in the game.

So, how did raids change the “identity” of the game? I admit they are only one small piece. They dont really detract from the development of other content. And, they are fairly well done (most of them).

The actual problem comes from the average players’ desire to experience the entire PVE picture – from the ambient creature sitting idly half way through a jumping puzzle to the last boss in the last raid wing.

A year and a half ago, players could experience every element of the PVE game without compromising how they played. Every profession, every build and every stat set was reasonably feasible in every part of the game. And, in the one area where more difficult content was being added (fractals), there was a scaling system.

Raids changed that. For the first time since launch, there was a part of the game that forced players to “optimize” their characters. There was no scaling or any real way for many players to retain their character’s identity and still have a reasonable chance at experiencing the content.

This single change has had huge repercussions in how players perceive the game and the direction it is now going. Now, the only players who get to experience it all are those who are willing to (at least partially) homogenize their builds, stat sets and playstyles.

And that is bad.

NOTE: I do not see challenging content or even raids as bad things in the game. It is definitely needed and fills a much needed niche. It is the lack of scaling (easy, hard mode) that creates this issue. Players who feel excluded from PVE content they perceive as endgame (especially when it relates to story) will grow (are growing and have grown) disillusioned with the game.

Well said.

When the game first launched, Dungeons were seen as stupidly hard, and required specific builds to beat until players figured them out, several got nerfed, and player skill in general increased. I bet in a year or two, several Raids will be seen as ’Playhowyouwant" in terms of difficulty – not from the power creep, but from improved skill at the game from experienced players being able to carry the newer ones even in mixed parties.

Even at their worst, masteries were never as bad as The Time We Had To Unlock Traits.

Doam.8305:

Dungeons have story mode WVW had mapping and roaming wall PVP has unranked and private sessions. Fractals of course have lower tiers that don’t even need agony resistance.

Yes raids have no tiers/easy modes/story modes etc.
But they do have different difficulty levels especially since the last wing was introduced.
In the AMA to the LS Episode 3 they also came out and said the new wing (speaking of the newly released) will have bosses to serve as stepping stones. And they do. They are a good mix of challenging encounters but with easier (or even no) mechanics. Two of them being at the level of Tier 3 Fractals.

Doam.8305:

Raids have nothing I can do any of this it doesn’t get any more strait forward than this simple truth. All videogames have these basic entry steps the fact that so many bosses exist at this point only reaffirms that this is their current direction. Quoting multiple bosses is meaningless as dungeons, fractals, and even the various WVW lords exist. Raids do not act like any other content in guild wars the difficulty tiers seperate the toxic element from new people trying to enter a mode. The try Garda will be there say one with new raiders were in other modes they’d be seperate in ranked/explor/AR??/

The notion that mid and end bosses are akin to the modes that other aspects of the game have doesn’t fit either. That’s after the fact and not a basic introduction with people who will probably expect people to know the mechanics off the bat just like they would if they entered the raid in the current state. Basically no difference there is no difference for new people trying to get in and test the waters.

Yes i will give you that the raiding community was very much closed off in the beginning. It was all about git gud or go home. I was just like you – asking for story modes to get into raiding. The ones you are afraid of meeting – they already stay in their own “200+Li, Eternal, 100 Kill proofs and a dancing monkey”-LFG-groups. New raiders won’t encounter them unless they try to join one of these groups – which would be a big mistake anyway

Doam.8305:

The behavior that was present before was offset by the larger positive aspects. Three dungeon posts may say zerker only but the other six took anyone and Anet didn’t encourage the behavior taking action to balance things around like buffing condi. These days without the basic entry the negativity isn’t offset at all. Anet even encourages them with the meter statement and since raids are there current push like esports prior they made it the face of the game. Even ascended gear was untouched after they nerfed the other modes. So the behavior is different because those negative aspects of the past were refined and given power. We had an official response on meters for raids could you imagine how bad zerker nuts of the past would have been if Anet supported them with an official thumbs up for meters.

How can you say this?? The first dungeon was Ascalon. The one were you need the lowest possible level to enter. And the LFG was FULL of groups saying “LVL 80 only”, “10k+ AP, EXP, Lvl 80”, “Lvl 80 Exp or kick”, “Zerk or kick”, “lvl 80 speed clear, be exp or kick”.
Yes these groups still exist in raids. But the raiding community has grown over the last year. A lot of guilds are offering training runs and explain beginners how every boss works by going in with them, showing them the mechanics and wiping over and over with them until they get it.

Sartharina.3542:

Even at their worst, masteries were never as bad as The Time We Had To Unlock Traits.

Ah, the Dark Times. Actually highlights GW2 having trouble with its identity, even at onset.

“Let’s be like GW1!”
Turns out that GW2 players didn’t like that very much. :|

“We need ‘endgame content’!”
Accusations of becoming a Trinity WoW Clone fly as raids are finished by some groups in a day or a week and then whinge for more content.

“We need more challenge!” (Which, to be fair, old Tyria’s faceroll easy…)
While a few enemies stepped up their game in tactics, ‘challenge’ was delivered mostly as CC-spamming HP-sponges.

I like GW2 as a product overall, but I can readily see how over time that it’s still flailing for something to grasp onto as the game continues to grow. After committing to its own ideas on MMO combat (action combat, self-healing) and quality of life (insert huge list here), it feels like design is chasing what’s already been done instead of designing for the wonderfully free system they’ve created.

Sartharina.3542:

When the game first launched, Dungeons were seen as stupidly hard, and required specific builds to beat until players figured them out, several got nerfed, and player skill in general increased. I bet in a year or two, several Raids will be seen as ’Playhowyouwant" in terms of difficulty – not from the power creep, but from improved skill at the game from experienced players being able to carry the newer ones even in mixed parties.

Even at their worst, masteries were never as bad as The Time We Had To Unlock Traits.

There are huge differences between dungeons and raids that will keep this from happening. Raid encounters, due to lazy mechanics like enrage timers and “kill fast” elements, are more math based than dungeons. If the math isnt there in a dungeon, the fight takes longer (which is fine). If the math isnt there in a raid, the fight fails. Second, raids are considerably more punishing to builds and compositions that are far from the “meta.” (I know highly experienced players can do the raids on just about anything, but that isnt the group we are talking about here). That was also less of an issue in dungeons. That isn’t going to change either.

I also think people overstate the difficulty of dungeons at launch. I dont remember failing many dungeons for any reason other than just running out of time (and that was mostly in early runs in Arah where we thought it made sense to kill all the mobs) – even with fairly inexperienced and casual guild members.

This is a pervasive issue that will only worsen as time goes on rather than improve. As more and more raids are added with more and more “side” stories/interesting bosses/other experiences, the rift between raiders and non-raiders will only widen.

They need to address and fix the issue now – before it gets any worse.

Blaeys.3102:

Sartharina.3542:

When the game first launched, Dungeons were seen as stupidly hard, and required specific builds to beat until players figured them out, several got nerfed, and player skill in general increased. I bet in a year or two, several Raids will be seen as ’Playhowyouwant" in terms of difficulty – not from the power creep, but from improved skill at the game from experienced players being able to carry the newer ones even in mixed parties.

Even at their worst, masteries were never as bad as The Time We Had To Unlock Traits.

There are huge differences between dungeons and raids that will keep this from happening. Raid encounters, due to lazy mechanics like enrage timers and “kill fast” elements, are more math based than dungeons. If the math isnt there in a dungeon, the fight takes longer (which is fine). If the math isnt there in a raid, the fight fails. Second, raids are considerably more punishing to builds and compositions that are far from the “meta.” (I know highly experienced players can do the raids on just about anything, but that isnt the group we are talking about here). That was also less of an issue in dungeons. That isn’t going to change either.

I also think people overstate the difficulty of dungeons at launch. I dont remember failing many dungeons for any reason other than just running out of time (and that was mostly in early runs in Arah where we thought it made sense to kill all the mobs) – even with fairly inexperienced and casual guild members.

This is a pervasive issue that will only worsen as time goes on rather than improve. As more and more raids are added with more and more “side” stories/interesting bosses/other experiences, the rift between raiders and non-raiders will only widen.

They need to address and fix the issue now – before it gets any worse.

If nothing else you can rez people in dungeons when they die, or they can use revive orbs, which some people do. Can’t do either in raids.

Blaeys.3102:

Sartharina.3542:

When the game first launched, Dungeons were seen as stupidly hard, and required specific builds to beat until players figured them out, several got nerfed, and player skill in general increased. I bet in a year or two, several Raids will be seen as ’Playhowyouwant" in terms of difficulty – not from the power creep, but from improved skill at the game from experienced players being able to carry the newer ones even in mixed parties.

Even at their worst, masteries were never as bad as The Time We Had To Unlock Traits.

There are huge differences between dungeons and raids that will keep this from happening. Raid encounters, due to lazy mechanics like enrage timers and “kill fast” elements, are more math based than dungeons. If the math isnt there in a dungeon, the fight takes longer (which is fine). If the math isnt there in a raid, the fight fails. Second, raids are considerably more punishing to builds and compositions that are far from the “meta.” (I know highly experienced players can do the raids on just about anything, but that isnt the group we are talking about here). That was also less of an issue in dungeons. That isn’t going to change either.

I also think people overstate the difficulty of dungeons at launch. I dont remember failing many dungeons for any reason other than just running out of time (and that was mostly in early runs in Arah where we thought it made sense to kill all the mobs) – even with fairly inexperienced and casual guild members.

This is a pervasive issue that will only worsen as time goes on rather than improve. As more and more raids are added with more and more “side” stories/interesting bosses/other experiences, the rift between raiders and non-raiders will only widen.

They need to address and fix the issue now – before it gets any worse.

Enrage timers have a specific purpose that is necessary which has been discussed to death already. You’re free to feel that they’re lazy mechanics.

Undoubtably with enrage timers, there is some math and minimum DPS that must be done before the timer ends. When groups fail, what percentage of the time is it because they reached the enrage timer?

Edit: Removed the extra ‘e’ in “purpose” since I’m OCD like that

Ayrilana.1396:

Enrage timers have a specific peurpose that is necessary which has been discussed to death already. You’re free to feel that they’re lazy mechanics.

Undoubtably with enrage timers, there is some math and minimum DPS that must be done before the timer ends. When groups fail, what percentage of the time is it because they reached the enrage timer?

Perhaps lazy was a bit harsh.

In full meta builds and comps (or builds and comps close to it) – other than fights like Gorseval, you are right – the enrage is rarely a big issue. Once you start talking about different types of players and playstyles, however, they definitely come into play.

But, that isnt really my point, anyway. My point is the math provides a limiting factor that makes raids a different animal than dungeons. You cannot compare where dungeons are now with where raids may be in the future – there are just too many differences in design based on mathematical walls.

The inclusion of story (any story – but especially GW1 lore), unique mechanics and boss models may all seem like small things now – when we only have 4 wings, but in years to come, when we have a dozen or more wings, were going to end up with a game where large chunks of the experience are limited heavily based on playstyle and build choices. That is a major shift from the game we had for the first 4 years.

It will essentially be a segmentation of the PVE community in a way that has never existed in the game. That is the identity change I dread most. ArenaNet needs to address this problem now – before it creates a game where the experience is so divided and many of the initial core supporters of the game decide the frustration and limitations make it no longer worth it to log in.

Blaeys.3102:

Ayrilana.1396:

Enrage timers have a specific peurpose that is necessary which has been discussed to death already. You’re free to feel that they’re lazy mechanics.

Undoubtably with enrage timers, there is some math and minimum DPS that must be done before the timer ends. When groups fail, what percentage of the time is it because they reached the enrage timer?

Perhaps lazy was a bit harsh.

In full meta builds and comps (or builds and comps close to it) – other than fights like Gorseval, you are right – the enrage is rarely a big issue. Once you start talking about different types of players and playstyles, however, they definitely come into play.

But, that isnt really my point, anyway. My point is the math provides a limiting factor that makes raids a different animal than dungeons. You cannot compare where dungeons are now with where raids may be in the future – there are just too many differences in design based on mathematical walls.

The inclusion of story (any story – but especially GW1 lore), unique mechanics and boss models may all seem like small things now – when we only have 4 wings, but in years to come, when we have a dozen or more wings, were going to end up with a game where large chunks of the experience are limited heavily based on playstyle and build choices. That is a major shift from the game we had for the first 4 years.

It will essentially be a segmentation of the PVE community in a way that has never existed in the game. That is the identity change I dread most. ArenaNet needs to address this problem now – before it creates a game where the experience is so divided and many of the initial core supporters of the game decide the frustration and limitations make it no longer worth it to log in.

It is a sad thing if “core supporters” leave the game. But its not disasterous. Disasterous is if a game can’t attract new players. Thats were youll see how a game will die out. Not by adding new, interesting, challenging content.

And the picture you are paint is just your opinion and not based in facts. You think because YOU (and the fraction of people in this game that you know) are not willing to adept to the changes in the game or even better come up with own ideas to clear raid bosses as they are implemented now the majority of people thinks the same. And you couldn’t be more wrong about that. Weekly new people join the training runs where i learned the ropes. New people with different experience levels, raiding experiences and skill levels. The raiding community is growing not declining – which contradicts the dooms day scenario you and a lot like you are trying to paint.

When I first started, I was told there is no Holy Trinity. Yet there are many areas of the game where a Druid is needed for healing, an Ele is needed for DPS and a Warrior (Guardian) is needed for Tanking. In this respect, it seems GW2 lost it’s original intent. Imagine a party composed of Mesmers and Thieves trying to do Pvp, WvW, Raids or Dungeon.

Mitern.1563:

When I first started, I was told there is no Holy Trinity. Yet there are many areas of the game where a Druid is needed for healing, an Ele is needed for DPS and a Warrior (Guardian) is needed for Tanking. In this respect, it seems GW2 lost it’s original intent. Imagine a party composed of Mesmers and Thieves trying to do Pvp, WvW, Raids or Dungeon.

There are plenty of videos of people doing exactly that.

OniGiri.9461:

Mitern.1563:

When I first started, I was told there is no Holy Trinity. Yet there are many areas of the game where a Druid is needed for healing, an Ele is needed for DPS and a Warrior (Guardian) is needed for Tanking. In this respect, it seems GW2 lost it’s original intent. Imagine a party composed of Mesmers and Thieves trying to do Pvp, WvW, Raids or Dungeon.

There are plenty of videos of people doing exactly that.

I found a few Dungeons but could not find Mesmers and Thieves winning PVP, WVW and Raids with none of the previously mentioned Holy Trinity classes. Could you provide some links please? Also Fractals if they are there.

Mitern.1563:

OniGiri.9461:

Mitern.1563:

When I first started, I was told there is no Holy Trinity. Yet there are many areas of the game where a Druid is needed for healing, an Ele is needed for DPS and a Warrior (Guardian) is needed for Tanking. In this respect, it seems GW2 lost it’s original intent. Imagine a party composed of Mesmers and Thieves trying to do Pvp, WvW, Raids or Dungeon.

There are plenty of videos of people doing exactly that.

I found a few Dungeons but could not find Mesmers and Thieves winning PVP, WVW and Raids with none of the previously mentioned Holy Trinity classes. Could you provide some links please? Also Fractals if they are there.

Mesmers and Thieves paired up in the wvw roaming scene area a huge pain to deal with. Thieves do suffer (melt instantly) if they sit in the middle of a blob and run into the enemy, but that’s not the best way to play that class.

Mesmers and Thieves also do just fine in PvP. You’re not searching very hard if you’re not finding videos of them winning in pvp.

As I don’t like (so I don’t do) fractals or dungeons, I don’t know what they do in there.

Thieves scare me to death in WvW. And they always seem to be alone. So, I don’t think Thieves need any ‘Holy Trinity’ in WvW.

I feel like the biggest problem with raids is that they are called “raids,” and thus invoke all the WoW stigma.

If they had just chosen to call them 10-man dungeons or somesuch the wider gw2 community would probably applaud them.

Crinn.7864:

I feel like the biggest problem with raids is that they are called “raids,” and thus invoke all the WoW stigma.

If they had just chosen to call them 10-man dungeons or somesuch the wider gw2 community would probably applaud them.

You are probably on to something here.

Blaeys.3102:

….many of the initial core supporters of the game decide the frustration and limitations make it no longer worth it to log in….

While this would be unfortunate, it wouldn’t be the end of the world for Guild Wars 2 and Arenanet. There are sometimes things called acceptable losses. If they don’t address it, as you and other say they need to (even though they don’t think that they need to), then that would mean that if you left because of this, that you were that acceptable loss. I know no one wants to consider that a company that they have supported might consider losing them an acceptable loss, but it happens all the time.

The biggest thing that will have to happen, for those that think that a story or easy mode raids is needed, is decide at which point this game isn’t going to be what you want/think it should be, and whether to keep playing or not.

Identity is what we make it. As a young person we exude one identity that people understand us to be.

However, as we age and grow, we change in some ways our identity changes, how we identify with others and how they identify with us.

Growth is essential to any identity , retaining a young or immature identity in fear of change is not a good idea. We must grow as must a game.

What we really debate here is, how much of identity change is good and how much is not. Are we, that are judging it, byist, and pushing for things to stay the same because we don’t like change, or are we genuinely concerned for the changes we take place.

There were both good(gliding, guild halls ect) and bad things(balance issues, difficult content that was hard for casual players to overcome) that came out of HOT. The fact that it is so often labeled as the point at which things went awry is just not true. The truth is an expansion is necessary indeed i hope for another but I have grown unsure that will come about at this point.

I feel strongly that I see people that struggle with not wanting change, and those that are genuinely concerned.

Stop looking for the spot that identity was lost and begin looking at how it has changed for better and for worse.

You need to be fair with yourself and determine how much of these changes were player driven, (the call for new content like raids, players growing bored and finding ways to do things that weren’t intended ect)

Hind sight is always 20/20 and I often find its easy to pine for the old days but I have also seen reversion of changes immediately renew the boredom in people.

Be careful that you are not a person that fears change and wants what is comfortable back again and really define what would draw in or bring back players. The health of the game thrives on a populated game. Your enjoyment depends largely on community, reward for time spent, and new challenges to grow you.

New content, in the video game world, and to get any longevity out of it, it requires a commitment to follow up with this change of identities to stay in touch with your market target group and be sure you are delivering what you say.

Guild Wars 2 definitely needs to evolve it needs to grow an independent identity, the devs I have met and who work for the game have always tried to do things differently then other games and I would encourage them to continue to do it differently. That is the only true identity I will concede this game. That it has always been and claimed to be different, to look at new ways to do things. They won’t always hit the mark but there is nothing gained when nothing is risked.

Fatalyz.7168:

Blaeys.3102:

….many of the initial core supporters of the game decide the frustration and limitations make it no longer worth it to log in….

While this would be unfortunate, it wouldn’t be the end of the world for Guild Wars 2 and Arenanet. There are sometimes things called acceptable losses. If they don’t address it, as you and other say they need to (even though they don’t think that they need to), then that would mean that if you left because of this, that you were that acceptable loss. I know no one wants to consider that a company that they have supported might consider losing them an acceptable loss, but it happens all the time.

Exactly.

The gem sales are rather stable, so the number of players boycotting Anet because they disagree with the new identity isn’t as high compared to new players who agree with it, despite what some vocal forum posters are saying. In other words, the financial impact of this “new identity” just isn’t there. All those leaving can be considered acceptable losses, if at the same time someone leaves, another one joins.

Remember the game sold millions and only a tiny (really tiny) fraction of the initial buyers stayed with it because probably they didn’t agree with the direction the game was going, which was completely different to what was advertised. One of the chief complaints back during the first months was the lack of endgame, that send players away by the thousands, combined with the lack of meaningful end game rewards. That was confirmed by Arenanet developers themselves, as the Exotic acquisition wasn’t enough to keep players interested and they got bored and left. That’s why Ascended was introduced.

Now they added some actual end-game. Winning back some of the millions that left might be worth it, even if it means alienating a couple hundred of the current players. It’s obviously a gamble, is it working or not? We’ll see the results soon enough.

People like to latch onto a single word or phrase and base silly arguments on something that wasnt actually said or meant. No on is talking about a boycott. And I doubt very many, if any left over raiding. People are reading too much into a single sentence.

It’s about the shift in the game’s focus and whether or not that is good for the game’s future. I personally believe it is not. I don’t want to see anyone leave – and a boycott over the content would just be silly. The comment was more about retaining players who rely on what they perceived as an important tenant of the game.

Adding raids was a marketing ploy to bring new blood into the game. I think we can all agree on that. I doubt that Anet wants it to push others away though. There is an old adage in marketing communication (an industry I have been in for 20+ years, btw) – its easier to retain existing customers than it is to bring in new ones. Your brand champions and advocates are the core of your business.

With the implementation of this kind of raiding, Anet – whether they believe it or not – are shifting their brand away from some core tenants that brought people into the game. That will be off putting to many. Now, I accept that some may see that as a positive move. I do not.

And current profitability mean nothing. It’s year to year revenue that matters – long term viability. That is going to be affected by a lot more than what is in the game.

So again, it isnt about a boycott or some doomsday prediction. Please stop the hyperbole and exaggeration based on a simple statement meant more as support of a bigger picture than as any kind of alarmist proclamation or threat.

maddoctor.2738:

Now they added some actual end-game. Winning back some of the millions that left might be worth it, even if it means alienating a couple hundred of the current players. It’s obviously a gamble, is it working or not? We’ll see the results soon enough.

Well the “result” in the earnings report does not really align with your “millions vs. hundreds” theories.
GW2 is not gaining momentum – It is, albeit slowly, losing it. :-(

Blaeys.3102:

…The comment was more about retaining players who rely on what they perceived as an important tenant of the game….

And my reply was about the fact that perhaps they aren’t concerned about retaining those players. And more to the point, when do those players realize that Anet wasn’t concerned about retaining them (whether it makes smart business sense or not), if they continue with the path that they have started with Raids and other harder niche content? I mean obviously if they keep pushing raids and never making an easier story mode, then at some point those players either have to learn to live with it or find something different to do with their time.

Neither of us can know if Anet is concerned with retaining that playerbase. You can argue that it makes good business sense to try to retain those players because after all it is cheaper than new customers. I can argue that they were never the intended audience, and Anet wants to bring in their intended audience. If Anet wants to bring in a specific audience, then you better bet that they already guessed that they would be losing players (an acceptable loss) and that they would be prepared to lose those players. At the end of the day, the best we can do is make educated guesses, and try to guess what Anet intends.

Blaeys.3102:

With the implementation of this kind of raiding, Anet – whether they believe it or not – are shifting their brand away from some core tenants that brought people into the game. That will be off putting to many.

I think that to think that Anet didn’t consider that they would be making this shift, to be a bit naive. I’m not a betting person, but even I would be willing to bet that this was an intentional shift.

OniGiri.9461:

Blaeys.3102:

Ayrilana.1396:

Enrage timers have a specific peurpose that is necessary which has been discussed to death already. You’re free to feel that they’re lazy mechanics.

Undoubtably with enrage timers, there is some math and minimum DPS that must be done before the timer ends. When groups fail, what percentage of the time is it because they reached the enrage timer?

Perhaps lazy was a bit harsh.

In full meta builds and comps (or builds and comps close to it) – other than fights like Gorseval, you are right – the enrage is rarely a big issue. Once you start talking about different types of players and playstyles, however, they definitely come into play.

But, that isnt really my point, anyway. My point is the math provides a limiting factor that makes raids a different animal than dungeons. You cannot compare where dungeons are now with where raids may be in the future – there are just too many differences in design based on mathematical walls.

The inclusion of story (any story – but especially GW1 lore), unique mechanics and boss models may all seem like small things now – when we only have 4 wings, but in years to come, when we have a dozen or more wings, were going to end up with a game where large chunks of the experience are limited heavily based on playstyle and build choices. That is a major shift from the game we had for the first 4 years.

It will essentially be a segmentation of the PVE community in a way that has never existed in the game. That is the identity change I dread most. ArenaNet needs to address this problem now – before it creates a game where the experience is so divided and many of the initial core supporters of the game decide the frustration and limitations make it no longer worth it to log in.

It is a sad thing if “core supporters” leave the game. But its not disasterous. Disasterous is if a game can’t attract new players. Thats were youll see how a game will die out. Not by adding new, interesting, challenging content.

And the picture you are paint is just your opinion and not based in facts. You think because YOU (and the fraction of people in this game that you know) are not willing to adept to the changes in the game or even better come up with own ideas to clear raid bosses as they are implemented now the majority of people thinks the same. And you couldn’t be more wrong about that. Weekly new people join the training runs where i learned the ropes. New people with different experience levels, raiding experiences and skill levels. The raiding community is growing not declining – which contradicts the dooms day scenario you and a lot like you are trying to paint.

This is a vast oversimplification. The fact is, the game is doing worse than it’s ever done financially, and new players who come to the game for raid type content are competing with far more games.

When this game was a casual MMO that was relatively easy, it was actually in a vast minority and that was one identity. The more stuff added to make this stuff more like other MMOs, the more likely it’s just going to get lost in a sea of MMOs.

There’s no way the players coming in are going to replace the really loyal guys who have been here for years. That’s never been the way MMO works. Core communities are what keep games alive.

Guys who are just coming in now, they’re less likely to be loyal because that ship has sailed. They’ll be the guys looking for a cheap or free game. They’ll be the people looking for something to play for free until the next installment of their main game comes out.

You can’t just replace loyal long term players with new guys. So if loyal long term players leave it’s going to affect the bottom line.

What did Anet say about the expansion. New players didn’t buy it as often as they expected. Anet expected more free to play people to buy the expansion and it didn’t happen. This is why the change of identity thing has been such a hot topic.

Frankly I don’t think so many people have left per se, but the less happy I am with the game the less money I’m going to spend on gems and I used to spend quite a bit on gems. Now I spend a lot less. Why? Because I’m less happy.

I suspect that’s not all that unusual either. Certainly the numbers are down. Down lower than they’ve ever been.

However, I suspect those numbers to jump up when the new expansion hits anyway. So much depends on how well the next expansion does.

OniGiri.9461:

Doam.8305:

Dungeons have story mode WVW had mapping and roaming wall PVP has unranked and private sessions. Fractals of course have lower tiers that don’t even need agony resistance.

Yes raids have no tiers/easy modes/story modes etc.
But they do have different difficulty levels especially since the last wing was introduced.
In the AMA to the LS Episode 3 they also came out and said the new wing (speaking of the newly released) will have bosses to serve as stepping stones. And they do. They are a good mix of challenging encounters but with easier (or even no) mechanics. Two of them being at the level of Tier 3 Fractals.

Doam.8305:

Raids have nothing I can do any of this it doesn’t get any more strait forward than this simple truth. All videogames have these basic entry steps the fact that so many bosses exist at this point only reaffirms that this is their current direction. Quoting multiple bosses is meaningless as dungeons, fractals, and even the various WVW lords exist. Raids do not act like any other content in guild wars the difficulty tiers seperate the toxic element from new people trying to enter a mode. The try Garda will be there say one with new raiders were in other modes they’d be seperate in ranked/explor/AR??/

The notion that mid and end bosses are akin to the modes that other aspects of the game have doesn’t fit either. That’s after the fact and not a basic introduction with people who will probably expect people to know the mechanics off the bat just like they would if they entered the raid in the current state. Basically no difference there is no difference for new people trying to get in and test the waters.

Yes i will give you that the raiding community was very much closed off in the beginning. It was all about git gud or go home. I was just like you – asking for story modes to get into raiding. The ones you are afraid of meeting – they already stay in their own “200+Li, Eternal, 100 Kill proofs and a dancing monkey”-LFG-groups. New raiders won’t encounter them unless they try to join one of these groups – which would be a big mistake anyway

Doam.8305:

The behavior that was present before was offset by the larger positive aspects. Three dungeon posts may say zerker only but the other six took anyone and Anet didn’t encourage the behavior taking action to balance things around like buffing condi. These days without the basic entry the negativity isn’t offset at all. Anet even encourages them with the meter statement and since raids are there current push like esports prior they made it the face of the game. Even ascended gear was untouched after they nerfed the other modes. So the behavior is different because those negative aspects of the past were refined and given power. We had an official response on meters for raids could you imagine how bad zerker nuts of the past would have been if Anet supported them with an official thumbs up for meters.

How can you say this?? The first dungeon was Ascalon. The one were you need the lowest possible level to enter. And the LFG was FULL of groups saying “LVL 80 only”, “10k+ AP, EXP, Lvl 80”, “Lvl 80 Exp or kick”, “Zerk or kick”, “lvl 80 speed clear, be exp or kick”.
Yes these groups still exist in raids. But the raiding community has grown over the last year. A lot of guilds are offering training runs and explain beginners how every boss works by going in with them, showing them the mechanics and wiping over and over with them until they get it.

I can say it easily a bad kid will only get worse if he is encouraged to do those bad things. Back in the day of zerk those people asked for meters and Anet said no to those demands. The bad raid kids asked the same thing and Anet patted them on the head gave them candy(dps meter) and told them to go nuts. It’s not even about the meter but everything about Anet supporting them and thus the situation/behavior worsens.

All explorable dungeons are set to 80 and supposed to be equal with Arah of course being the outlier with it it being near soloable so selling runs became the norm with it. So of course zerker would be a demand for the level 80 version. The story mode was the entry and I’ve never seen heavy zerker AP no necro for any of the dungeon story modes.

The raiding community growing of the past year is because it has so much room to grow without a developer created entry. Your examples are a player driven side effect because if your raiding group loses some key members you can’t easily replace them your going to have to go out and try to train a replacement doing those easier bosses you mentioned. Player created paths for entry can work but it’s much slower and are a symptom not really an alternative at all to a developer created path.

Vayne.8563:

This is a vast oversimplification. The fact is, the game is doing worse than it’s ever done financially, and new players who come to the game for raid type content are competing with far more games.

When this game was a casual MMO that was relatively easy, it was actually in a vast minority and that was one identity. The more stuff added to make this stuff more like other MMOs, the more likely it’s just going to get lost in a sea of MMOs.

There’s no way the players coming in are going to replace the really loyal guys who have been here for years. That’s never been the way MMO works. Core communities are what keep games alive.

Guys who are just coming in now, they’re less likely to be loyal because that ship has sailed. They’ll be the guys looking for a cheap or free game. They’ll be the people looking for something to play for free until the next installment of their main game comes out.

You can’t just replace loyal long term players with new guys. So if loyal long term players leave it’s going to affect the bottom line.

What did Anet say about the expansion. New players didn’t buy it as often as they expected. Anet expected more free to play people to buy the expansion and it didn’t happen. This is why the change of identity thing has been such a hot topic.

Frankly I don’t think so many people have left per se, but the less happy I am with the game the less money I’m going to spend on gems and I used to spend quite a bit on gems. Now I spend a lot less. Why? Because I’m less happy.

I suspect that’s not all that unusual either. Certainly the numbers are down. Down lower than they’ve ever been.

However, I suspect those numbers to jump up when the new expansion hits anyway. So much depends on how well the next expansion does.

So you are not going to let off with that “numbers are down” argument even though i already thoroughly debunked that in the previous comments.

Pls stop stating your opinons as fact – it goes against the rules for commenting on this forum.

Where do you get that people coming in now are less likely to stay loyal?
Many of those “long term players” have stopped playing the game for one or two years and come back when ever they feel like playing it again. Who are you to call them disloyal?

Also not all the guys that have been in the game since launch think like you do. You should probably stop talking for more than yourself.

OniGiri.9461:

Vayne.8563:

This is a vast oversimplification. The fact is, the game is doing worse than it’s ever done financially, and new players who come to the game for raid type content are competing with far more games.

When this game was a casual MMO that was relatively easy, it was actually in a vast minority and that was one identity. The more stuff added to make this stuff more like other MMOs, the more likely it’s just going to get lost in a sea of MMOs.

There’s no way the players coming in are going to replace the really loyal guys who have been here for years. That’s never been the way MMO works. Core communities are what keep games alive.

Guys who are just coming in now, they’re less likely to be loyal because that ship has sailed. They’ll be the guys looking for a cheap or free game. They’ll be the people looking for something to play for free until the next installment of their main game comes out.

You can’t just replace loyal long term players with new guys. So if loyal long term players leave it’s going to affect the bottom line.

What did Anet say about the expansion. New players didn’t buy it as often as they expected. Anet expected more free to play people to buy the expansion and it didn’t happen. This is why the change of identity thing has been such a hot topic.

Frankly I don’t think so many people have left per se, but the less happy I am with the game the less money I’m going to spend on gems and I used to spend quite a bit on gems. Now I spend a lot less. Why? Because I’m less happy.

I suspect that’s not all that unusual either. Certainly the numbers are down. Down lower than they’ve ever been.

However, I suspect those numbers to jump up when the new expansion hits anyway. So much depends on how well the next expansion does.

So you are not going to let off with that “numbers are down” argument even though i already thoroughly debunked that in the previous comments.

Pls stop stating your opinons as fact – it goes against the rules for commenting on this forum.

Where do you get that people coming in now are less likely to stay loyal?
Many of those “long term players” have stopped playing the game for one or two years and come back when ever they feel like playing it again. Who are you to call them disloyal?

Also not all the guys that have been in the game since launch think like you do. You should probably stop talking for more than yourself.

Its’ a fact that the last three quarters have been the lowest quarters the game has ever produced. You debunked nothing.

What do gem store sales have to do with the status of the game itself?

OniGiri.9461:

Vayne.8563:

This is a vast oversimplification. The fact is, the game is doing worse than it’s ever done financially, and new players who come to the game for raid type content are competing with far more games.

When this game was a casual MMO that was relatively easy, it was actually in a vast minority and that was one identity. The more stuff added to make this stuff more like other MMOs, the more likely it’s just going to get lost in a sea of MMOs.

There’s no way the players coming in are going to replace the really loyal guys who have been here for years. That’s never been the way MMO works. Core communities are what keep games alive.

Guys who are just coming in now, they’re less likely to be loyal because that ship has sailed. They’ll be the guys looking for a cheap or free game. They’ll be the people looking for something to play for free until the next installment of their main game comes out.

You can’t just replace loyal long term players with new guys. So if loyal long term players leave it’s going to affect the bottom line.

What did Anet say about the expansion. New players didn’t buy it as often as they expected. Anet expected more free to play people to buy the expansion and it didn’t happen. This is why the change of identity thing has been such a hot topic.

Frankly I don’t think so many people have left per se, but the less happy I am with the game the less money I’m going to spend on gems and I used to spend quite a bit on gems. Now I spend a lot less. Why? Because I’m less happy.

I suspect that’s not all that unusual either. Certainly the numbers are down. Down lower than they’ve ever been.

However, I suspect those numbers to jump up when the new expansion hits anyway. So much depends on how well the next expansion does.

So you are not going to let off with that “numbers are down” argument even though i already thoroughly debunked that in the previous comments.

Pls stop stating your opinons as fact – it goes against the rules for commenting on this forum.

Where do you get that people coming in now are less likely to stay loyal?
Many of those “long term players” have stopped playing the game for one or two years and come back when ever they feel like playing it again. Who are you to call them disloyal?

Also not all the guys that have been in the game since launch think like you do. You should probably stop talking for more than yourself.

You must be exhausted defending the indefensible all the time you’d probably get a stronger footing for some of your arguments by changing things up.

Obviously sticking with forums Reddit isn’t your thing people are more direct there. However on this very site exists a post called “New player, Sad player the expansion ruined it” that does have numbers supporting the decline of activity in this game and the forums. Obviously new player retention is the number one counter to such a thing so it goes without saying that there are serious problems with new player retention if the overall activity in the game is on a steady decline. It’s an older post and maybe you’ve commented on it for all I know but being old it’s a bit to late to really go on the defensive about it.

Arguing about whether or not things are down is pointless because they are its important to discuss improvements and steps takin after rather than be dismissive.

Ayrilana.1396:

What do gem store sales have to do with the status of the game itself?

That’s an amazing question. It deals with the over all health and viability of the game, because long term, if the game makes less it’s less likely to be supported. Ask the people who played City of Heroes, which was also a title owned by NCSoft.

We’re not in any kind of danger yet. But showing a slacking of gem store sales, means people are less willing to spend money on the game. Obviously there could be many reasons for this, but from this thread, at least some people seem to believe the game has lost it’s identity and I can see why those people feel that way. I’m spending less. I could spend more,. but I’m not as happy with the product as I once was. It’s my decision to support it less than I did.

When I see that the game is moving more in a direction that benefits me, I’ll start spending more again.

I assume I’m not the only person who does this.

Vayne.8563:

Ayrilana.1396:

What do gem store sales have to do with the status of the game itself?

That’s an amazing question. It deals with the over all health and viability of the game, because long term, if the game makes less it’s less likely to be supported. Ask the people who played City of Heroes, which was also a title owned by NCSoft.

We’re not in any kind of danger yet. But showing a slacking of gem store sales, means people are less willing to spend money on the game. Obviously there could be many reasons for this, but from this thread, at least some people seem to believe the game has lost it’s identity and I can see why those people feel that way. I’m spending less. I could spend more,. but I’m not as happy with the product as I once was. It’s my decision to support it less than I did.

When I see that the game is moving more in a direction that benefits me, I’ll start spending more again.

I assume I’m not the only person who does this.

It could mean that people are less willing to spend money. It could also mean that there’s nothing worth spending money on too.

OniGiri.9461:

So you are not going to let off with that “numbers are down” argument even though i already thoroughly debunked that in the previous comments.

Pls stop stating your opinons as fact – it goes against the rules for commenting on this forum.

Wait – What? You debunked the fact that NC Soft earnings show declining GW2 earnings?
Please link the post where you provide indisputable proof that GW2 earnings are actually growing.
Are NC Soft really fabricating numbers in their reports (THAT would be news) or are you basically stating YOUR opinion without facts here?

Eagerly awaiting debunk of this (Check p5/6)