Guild Wars 2

At the end of the day, the question remains, how will people who cry about thieves without learning how to beat them, beat the good thieves that will continue to play because they love the class, and not because it’s FOTM?

maybe they will have a chance to learn to beat good players? but GOOD players deserve to win most fights. its what makes them GOOD. they know their abilities, when to chain them and how to work within the limitation of their character. With thieves at the moment its still easy to tell whom the good thieves are but even the terrible ones can follow the back stab patter with ease due to rendering bugs.

i really have no problem with thieves being able to hit hard. i and i think most of the community have a problem with them being able to hide in stealth doing it. Having the illusion of a chance is far better then the dismay of no chance. (yes i am aware and have used aoes to live through a thief. its the main reason i have my necro… whenever i get to pissed off on my ranger i log him in and start well / mark dropping thieves and just out tank them.)

@tigirius you do realize that even though thats how stealth works, and the not entering stealth for 3 second wait is how it is intended. with rendering the only person atm seeing what you do on your screen (leaving stealth then reentering) is yourself… The rest of us just see a 6-10 second of stealth and so much life gone we are stunned that this is still here.

that said i can redo my template for your single class. switch my lb and sb for a axe/horn and gs (ranger) and drop traps just so i can always take you out. or hope i can chain dodges, and sb skill enough to keep you at bay to make it a even fight (assuming im not left with 20 percent of less health) but have you every actually tried to get away from yourself? dropping every immobilize and cripple i have makes very relatively small chance of escape… unless i blow my elite skill on you and only if the thiefs not dumb enough to realize he has to hit the roots…

Maybe perhaps the high volume of cry is actually is an indication of a problem? the fact that you are the most highly preyed upon class for nerf and qq requests really is an indication of the ridiculous.
Im sorry that you think your stealth build allowing you to take out easily 80 percent of someones health without being seen at all due in part to rendering bugs with stealth but your going to see qq about this until its addressed. simple fact people will always and i mean always complain about invisible damage that all but eliminates their ability to feel like they have a chance.
Now yes you can blindly swing at the little dust spike if you use melee or aoe weapons, drop ground target attacks and hope the thief is dumb enough to stand on them but the fact is people do not like fighting a all but completely invisible foe. especially when on death report it shows that he was invisible not just doing back stab but also steal, heartseaker, etc.
in order to stop the qq and keep your backstab somewhat viable they will have to quickly fix the stealth issues plaguing the game. in which they do and you all will cry for days that although its possible to still stay mostly stealth through a kill it wont be nearly as easy…
l2p doesnt fix the disdain, hate, and annoyance at a completely invisible foe that you can’t see for 10 seconds due to a mix of chaining stealth and the rendering bug extending stealth for every time you “re-enter” what to anyone but yourself appears to be a constant non dropping stealth.
and yes i do have a thief. yes i have played it enough to understand how to chain stealth and to all but the best players own them. no a thief isnt my main.

I think some of that is learning to play. spend a little time learning the range of your skills and your set. its not like they change every map…

seeing an enemies cast bar isnt need to know they are casting, learn to watch for animations. with the exception of wow, and rifts insane ui customization this hasnt been a issue in any pvp game ive played. in fact i havent found the need to ever install it in wow because you just get used to panning and watching as part of your play…

and weapon changes should be allowed as long as your not in combat. its not game breaking to give players a chance before combat initiates to swap out weapons to fit the situation. maybe you should learn to do the same or just accept that you have chosen a one dimensional approach to combat and maximize on that while others have learned to cater to fights?

why is it you think its “dumbed down” or wasted. very few games launched with more then a handful of “pvp maps” and what not. daoc ended up emain fights all day long for the first while, gw1 didnt release with much more, wow had what 3? in fact one of the only games that had similar pvp to spvp that released more maps was Fury and it died ridiculously fast. despite being a somewhat fun game (glitches aside).

Keep fixing balance, let people catch up, enjoy both pve and pvp, and know that content patches are never quick in mmo’s. This is new, i know of no new game that has everything you all think it should. Its like you come into a new game expecting 10 years worth of expansion content upon release like your previous games had without realizing they all started off small scale too and expanded with expansions…

and theres no sub… if youre really that bored get off the chair, smell a rose, go play a sport, go on a date or take your significant other out on one, play your side game, whatever. Theres more to life then complaining about a new game being new.

PS – YOU may not like the holiday content but many do. it adds flavor, festivities and character to the world. Its time well spent even if it doesnt affect your pvp….

Comatoast.6921:

Glass cannons getting gibbed by glass cannons. There is nothing new here, make a thicker build and kite thieves for hours.

i think the problem here is this. why is it you think thieves deserve this special place as the only class worthy of a glass cannon build. i see this countered in everything. for every other class thieves just tell you to tank up… sorry but more then 1/8 of the classes deserve to have glass cannon builds that work and allow survivability to kill. not just the ability to be thief gib magnets…

that said just fix the rendering bug or make stealth a more valid opener instead of a fight long mechanic. problem fixed. i dont think people care they die to thieves. i think people care that half the fight vs a thief is against an invisible target through a mix of intended stealth chains and unintended rendering bugs.

@ rehk im not implying the rendering bug is intentional. i believe that thieves are taking advantage of it to the extreme and of the current influx of thieves only a handful are truly as good at cycling through the stealth chain perfectly to remain all but invisible. (before this last patch this was possible but you had a second before each new stealth hit to jump away causing the chain to fail)

Im not asking in any way shape or form for thieves to be nerfed. i honestly believe your damage is fine. Your ability to stealth is intrinsic to the classes flavor. But please remove the stealth rendering issue. The thief dynamic of chaining stealth was a lot more fun and interesting when if im on my toes i could whip out short bow, bounce out of range, tag you with cripple, and hope i hit dodge just in time before heart seaker and restealth hit. vs i have no idea where you are and have to pray on aoes to keep you from back stabbing but have little chance of true dps for the first part of the fight. which is the most important part.

fix rendering and thieves are more or less balanced. and maybe even a little weak.

ghaleon.2861:

Cocokachu.7920 This game is what 3 months old? im sorry you decided to burn through all the content and burn yourself out but the games solid as far as a new mmo goes. and the pvp aspect is enjoyable and will evolve as more people get to max, learn the different classes and skills, and as different strategies develop. This game is far to new with a newer player base. You cant expect the community and depth of pvp to have evolved that quickly.

First of all let me thank you all for replying back.
Cocokachu.7920 I have played every Profession in the game, like I said I’ve been playing since beta. I played all the professions because as a true Pvper if u don’t experience each one u won’t be able to find a counter or do well in sPvP. My guild and I only do paid tourneys since the new patch, we are all Avengers close to ransacker. We have all played all professions and we feel like we’re really advanced compared to most guilds. But that doesn’t change the fact that every map has the same objective and it feels repetitive. We need different objectives. I played GW1 since release too, I’ve been a loyal GW1 player since 2005. GW1 PvP took a while to develop too, which is why I know Anet will get GW2 PvP better, but right now I’m getting bored. I just wish we had a flag stand like in GW1.[/quote]

And i applaud you for making the effort to learn all the classes. I understand that you and your guild are impatient to see the new content. And i respect and thank you for ironing out things in beta despite the disadvantage that gives in regards to extending the life of the initial year. (i have yet to engage in a beta that in the end didn’t leave me bored too early in the mmo’s life. its why i have stopped beta testing any title I am interested in)

And i agree i really do believe that Anet will improve upon the PvP but i think the biggest factor for depth in any PvP game is the community. Anet can give 1000 different modes of PvP but without a strong competitive endgame community it will always be lack luster because at the end of the day PvP is 100 percent about player interaction with other players. And this is the first player base since GW1, daoc, and shadowbane that i believe can develop as needed for this. Although i really, really believe the very first thing that needs to change is eliminating the lack of name recognition in wvw. As far as spvp goes new maps and the rest of the community catching up to your guild will make a massive and total change.

At this point to many of us, myself included, are still working our way to you. i think once we have gotten our levels to match and time in game enough you will see the competition and skill level that keeps you addicted to pvp regardless of maps improve.

@incisorr the pvp isnt that imbalanced. it does need tweaks but its about as stable and balanced as wow is at any one point. I have yet to see a mmo actually be “balanced” where everything was perfectly equal without ending up feeling like the flavor of different classes is lost. this game gives every class if played to their strengths a fighting chance in pvp sooooo.

to the OP click play now and enjoy. sometimes you’ll still end up stomped but 90 percent of the time youll play against similar ranks and skill. just try to avoid getting zerged. learn to dodge. and all that fun stuff and it gets better fast.

PVP will always, always have a learning curb. thats just the nature of learning to fight another sentient human being. have to anticipate what a thinking person is going to do when and even then youll always get curve balls.

Did you honestly expect different? I hate sounding like a fan boy because i see the things that need adjusting and fixing but spvp and tpvp are exactly as advertised. Im sure as big expansions / patches hit we will get more variety but honestly…

As for wvw that has always been a zerg fest in every mmo that had a similar system. there will also always be small groups and solos finding their spots to play in open world but still. As far as pvp goes… You are killing other players… You have 3 different options (casual, esport, and open world siege) and yet its not killing players enough?

The only thing i could see that could change depth wise is lock three servers into a perma world war to fight over relics (ala daoc) or add some sort of RR type ability to work for. as far as the battlegrounds that you fight in they work.

This game is what 3 months old? im sorry you decided to burn through all the content and burn yourself out but the games solid as far as a new mmo goes. and the pvp aspect is enjoyable and will evolve as more people get to max, learn the different classes and skills, and as different strategies develop. This game is far to new with a newer player base. You cant expect the community and depth of pvp to have evolved that quickly.

the rendering bug needs nerfed. if a GOOD thief can chain his stealth skills right he deserves to be in and out of stealth through a fight. the rendering bug that allows a theif to appear stealthed even when not for serveral seconds is all thats wrong with this. having to use aoe’s to hit a target that the client should be showing but is not is whats the problem.

Selo.1250:

And before SC’ing and TOA there were absolutely no templates etc. you tried to get the best drops you could but stats were very random and in the end everyone was very similar to each other. SC’ing the extra 3-4 dex by overcharging was not significantly better then not.

yet that is exactly what many of us maximisers are about

if theres 1 item with 10 str, 10 dex, 10 vit that is very easy to get and another item with 10 str, 10 dex and 11 vit that is MUCH harder to get and takes months to get, we choose the second, just to get the absolute max stats you can get in the game.

Ye there were no RA in RvR from the start, but they were added for a reason, and also you got +1 in each stat per RR.
Overall RvR were more fun somehow aswell, felt much more epic then in WvW.
All 3 realms with 200 players each meeting up at a milegate for a massive brawl..
Also remember once i led my server and made them hide behind the trees in Emain near the Albion milegate and when the Albs passed we all cahrged down the mountain
Sigh…those were the days..

and im all for advocating the introduction of something akin to RA’s. i agree they made the pvp aspect dynamic by offering a soft carrot to achieve. i think daoc’s ability to allow a rr3 to compete with a rr8 without significant trouble while still offering the rr8 access to things that would help the fight was significant and have yet to see it since daoc. if this games the next big thing then yes.

i just dont want to see another war – where rr meant insane gaps in gear, wow where it was about how many bg’s you farmed in how well you compete, swtor gear dependency, ad infinitum. rr and slight differences like daoc in stat development and rr focus would be preferable to another gear grind if they have to add a carrot

Selo.1250:

Pretty much obvious you didnt play DaoC until later years or atleast a couple of years after release. It didnt take you days to get to 50, it took months, half a year for alot.
Until they changed the exp. (EU was released 1 year after US)

You could overcharge (cant remember the word) when you spellcrafted by adding higher number of stones then it it would normaly accept, the more you did the more chance it had to explode and you lost the item, but if you succeded, you got an item that was better then others. I remember i had a cloak overcharged, then they removed the posibility to spellcraft cloaks, so i was 1 of 3 on the whole server that had one, and it had betetr stats then normal cloaks.

I can agree stats, the grinding etc in ToA destroyed the game becouse it was then became needed in RvR.

Im not looking for that, i want equal gear in WvW aswell. To me, GW2 woulda been better of having gear treadmill for PvE, and a normalized set for WvW, just like in sPvP.
Im a maximiser, its not about pwning someone in PvP, its about progressing my character, making him stronger and stronger, its not that fun for me, when i at lvl 1 already know i wont become much stronger at lvl 80, then the game becomes completly meaningless for me.
I started playing GW2 becouse of WvW and i hoped ANet had figured out something else at endgame, alas, its just like any other game minus the gear, and people are complaining in those games theres no endgame, theres no wonder people are complaining here.
WvW doesnt have any character progression either, and my server got completly ruined by bandwagon free transfers becouse we were the best english speaking server so now WvW is dead for me aswell.
Every competent WvW player that was on the server before has left and its only the scrubs left.
My server has gone from nr 2 to nr 5 and it will probably keep on dropping.
So..unfortunally GW2 was not for me, atleast not for now.

i played a friar from day one. i remember no rr and even remember having mastery of dodge… I know it didnt start off as a easy grind but the fact remains it didnt have much of an endgame besides what we see in wvwvw originally. HMG was pretty much it run out there and die. The invention of the carrot or RR i think is all thats truly needed.

And before SC’ing and TOA there were absolutely no templates etc. you tried to get the best drops you could but stats were very random and in the end everyone was very similar to each other. SC’ing the extra 3-4 dex by overcharging was not significantly better then not. It was shown towards the end of the game that say for a caster as long as you maxed dex, spell haste, and int the rest was fluff in a group. helpful but not entirely needed (well resists too but i digress) and the end still stands. You pick a template and 99 percent of everyone you meet had the same template all that was different was player skill.

granted i left TOA servers and never returned due to that expansion sucking (i stayed on classic from its invent to its destruction) but i could easily see this game taking a page out of that book. add the RR to work towards as a carrot. and call it good. Then there will be at least the ego centric claim of being rr 10 even if all it does is give you purge, a little extra crit and a aoe snare or something…

Selo.1250:

Games like DAoC, Shadowbane, GW1, UO have all shown they don’t need a set gear based carrot to keep players playing

Sigh..people really have to stop saying that DaoC, Shadowbane and UO didnt have character progression and gear treadmill.

DaoC had ALOT of character progression, realm abilities etc, and spellcrafted gear anyone? who didnt try to get over 100% taking the risk on the item exploding, just to get a little bit more stats? It wasent a huge thing, but people still spent years to maximise their characters stats.
UO runecrafting? setbonuses?

And i would be for a limited use of something similar to a RR / RA system. SC’ing in daoc ended up being completely flat stat wise. It didnt take years, or even days to sc your gear at the end. DAoC similar to this game was straight up lvl to 50 in a few days, go online print off a template, have it made and enter pvp. everyone and i mean everyone else had the exact same types of template and it ended up being a completely even playing field gear wise. This just takes it to the next lvl of evening the playing field by taking out the step of needing to template and allowing you to concentrate on getting out and pvping / pveing quicker and allows a total fluff customization.

The fluff is more of a carrot then not to some. Heck i hated wow where you grinded days on end for a gear piece you may or may not like looks wise but you had to have it to explore the next content or compete. Here i can make a effort to look into what the gear looks like, decide if it worth my time for the look i want, and then grind if i want. Or i could avoid the thing entirely and just pvp.

The carrot to do endgame is here just like any other MMO. The problem i see complained about is farming for a look that doesnt make you beast compared to anyone else is wrong. Some have graciously stated they would like the pve to not affect pvp but i have yet, ever, to see that happen. Or vice versa and have them have to adjust things down in pvp and have it adversely affect pvp. By having this level playing field in both it allows for perfect blending and balance to a higher degree (nothings perfect) for both aspects.

That said if we truly, truly need a carrot… as i said RR / RA are one way to go with out affecting gear dependency in pvp. and adding a similar system for pve (complete x dungeon or boss nets you xp towards PvE centered abilities / skills like absorbs, boosted heals, etc that would help with further harder content) That would give you a stick to work with while still allowing all to compete in all aspects. I wouldnt need the RA / PVE abilities to do anything but they would improve on my ability to help out and actually live through endgame content….

“Cezton.2415
Doolio.1865:
I am a very, VERY casual player:) I say that because I don’t want anybody to think I have some ulterior motives behind this post:)
I don’t understand why skill/gear/fluffiness/achievement/vanity/power/content gap would be a bad thing in a MMORPG. If someone is playing ten hours a day and invests effort in googling, practicing and playing, he should get better payoff than me, in EVERY aspect. It’s perfectly logical. It makes for a diverse environment and there’s a content for everybody.
Thank you for this post.
You worded it very well. I don’t see how anyone can argue with this, but they do anyways. These invisible classes of players that claim they’re just in it for the fun, yet get butthurt whenever there’s something they can’t or won’t attain is just silly.
This is a video game, and it’s a simple premise that there are different types of players.
And to all the people saying “Well, GW2 made it perfectly clear that this game…”
Where to? I saw awesome advertisements for this game and vague descriptions. I think people are just whipping this stuff up out of thin air to justify these petty arguments.”

I think at this point its pot calling kettle black. Both sides including yourself refuse to see the others point. This game from day 1 has been advertised as the competitive mmo that sets precedents by keeping people at equal lvls through their adjusting system. heck “All characters are on even footing in both kinds of competitive play. Players use their regular characters, but everyone is adjusted to the maximum so that all characters are roughly equal in power.” is pulled straight from their website on it.

So with that in mind no gear should not come to play as a magical i win button. Honestly theres no sub here. Youre mentality of gear grind can perfectly fit in with a grind based game and still play this game for the pvp or whatever. They don’t need to radically change the concept of this game to fit the vocal minority crying that this isnt “insert grind / raid based game here”.

Games like DAoC, Shadowbane, GW1, UO have all shown they don’t need a set gear based carrot to keep players playing. Ladders, tracking, pvp goals are enough of a target for a game like this. Just because this isn’t the rising star to replace the rediculous time sink that is wow or eq2 does not make this game sub par or need to adjust its style.

And just because, oh my gosh, you failed to read what was happening in the game, bought into the wow killer hype, or just plain hate games that dont force you to play the game like a full time job does not mean that this game needs to change to support you. The games made, its hit its audience, maybe just maybe thats not you?

No we aren’t butt hurt that you’re whining about not having the ability to out gear and smack all people around due to your insane amount of free time. We are complaining that you think just because the game isn’t built for your style of play that it should be changed to fit you and screw over the player base that knew and loved the idea that this game represents. The selfish, snyde, and rediculous comments i see are mainly coming from the player base that wants to rewrite what this games aim is and cant seem to understand that. I can’t stand WoW’s endgame im not complaining in their forums to rewrite the game to meet my needs. Instead i came to this game that fits perfectly with what i want to accomplish now that DAoC is dead. Maybe instead of asking for a game to change completely to suit your needs, find a game that already fits your needs and enjoy. There’s enough amazing high quality mmo’s out now we dont need to be demanding one changes to fit us when theres already another that does. This isn’t 2001….

Necromancin.1470:

Dear Cezton.2415

+1 to you my friend your correct, this game suxs donkey crap… For me its a time toilet till something good comes out. Because games today are sooo fing bad, I am tempted to stop playing any mmo’s all together. FOR THE FIRST TIME EVER in history guru3d and game spot have made post’s and video about games of today being tooo dumbed down. This is a rising issue for vets that have had years to hone their gaming skills. As a true reality it is becoming, video games arnt going to be the same any more. A good mmo needs grind, thats what they were about. Take away that element and you got games like this. 3 weeks 4 hours aday = done, I have nothing left to do. Games of today are focusing tooo much on new generations of players and forgetting about the vets. OR maybe people are just lazy as hell now and dont want to work for anything.

As an example to how fail this game is, myself and my friend have grinded to lvl 68 with out using any armor or accessories. WHAT game out there, lets u grind almost to end game with out using any armor?? its unreal… this game is a amusement park, not a mmo.

In 2006 Cabal online came out, the only game I have seen where u could run a dungeon 10000 + times and have maybe 0.5% chance to get a forcium drop or a cape. Games like that arnt made any more, its all about “hand holding now”

Just because a game doesn’t require you to spend 40+ hours a week in it does not mean its holding my hand. being able to log in and run pvp for a couple hours a knock out a dungeon and then log off is where gaming is for the majority of us young adults. i started off in eq 1 when i was a kid and had the time and lack of will to do anything else but grind out that kitten dungeon for 10000 runs. beat the hell levels, and kept on going. guess what i dont want to go back it wasnt fun then i was just a bored teen in a military family (move to much to make friends)

Now that most of my age group has moved on to life i think the majority of us love this game for its equality. we can still progress and have fun and still compete while still being able to devote time to the real world. Im sorry that a game was built that finally catered to the pvp crowd that is also married, has jobs, and goes to college… actually no im not. please go play eq1 its still around, farm endlessly in aion or lineage 2, even run eq2 or wow. all are great alternatives to what you’re looking for. but for the rest of us we will enjoy the ability to be as casual or hardcore as we want and still be equal.

In my honest opinion if they are going to add any vertical progression to the endgame they should borrow from daoc. (not war) and add rr to the game. the abilities did give a slight boost but was easily overcome in most cases. Armor in that game was essentially just templated fluff (once you had your gems and few items thats it just sc the rest and youre all equal!) so the real progression / skill was your herald stats, rr, and how well your realm (server) was doing at any one time.

I don’t log into a pvp centric game thinking of how awesome its going to be to grind 20 mobs so i can kill someone. DAoC, shadowbane, etc were more i logged in to see if we could push to claim ex keep that day, see how many duels i could win, for that epic relic raid, etc. knowing that at the end of the day it was a epic battle i could talk about with the guild and have fun at. did i progress? marginally but it was by no means a primary focus. i like that gw2 is bringing that feeling back to some degree. and as people get more organized it will be even more so.

I’d be interested in starting up with fellow ex-DAoC players. i have over 7 years in that game most of it on the classic servers until they were shut down. (mostly hibland but did run some mean locks through the bg’s). willing to start any class you all need to fit your group dynamics or else wise im planning on a necro or ele.

~ Ciao! Cocokachu