Guild Wars 2

As long as the base mechanics of gw2 remain the same, just changing encounter design to truly change the meta of what a skilled play means is either going to be an exercise in futility (the greatest damage gear still expresses the greatest skill, the people who can pull it off are just diminished in number) or a cheap changing of the goalposts (enemies immune to critical hits, projectiles straight up immune to reflection or absorption, completely unavoidable damage).

Trying to make a game with a non-traditional trinity while implementing stats in the exact same way a traditional trinity game does fosters this pointless back and forth with no end in sight. There was no inclusion of tools that transformed the way one plays in defensive gear in comparison to how dodge was able to change the playstyle of those with less inherent mitigation. So they work the exact same way in an environment where they do not belong. No innovation, no progress.

Encounter design may not be very impressive now, but any changes made will not change the truth that the path of mastery will remain the same, even if fewer people are capable of playing it. The game simply lacks the tools to support any other playstyle without making it a cheap, shallow gimmick. Some stats are just too detached from meaningful ability modification for a few raid design choices to properly fix.

Tman.6349:

Croc.5129:

Tman.6349:

Active Defenses already require proper timing for maximum gain. If you activate your dodge while no enemies are attacking, then you didn’t really gain much for the cost of your resources. If you cast a reflect while their are only melee enemies attacking you, then you didn’t really gain much for the cost of your resource. This is similar to using a big offensive attack while you’re blinded or using your blast finisher while a Light Field is still active instead of waiting for the Fire Field to take priority. Just b/c Active Defenses are 100% effective on their own doesn’t mean you just spam them willy nilly and all is well. O.o Once again, you’re trying to equate gear prefixes as some kind of ‘role’ or ‘play style’. They are not those things at all. Plz get this concept through your head. Passive, personal offense/defense slider scale. Nothing more…

And the purpose of this scaling offense/defense? Why not another system? Why tie it to the amount of difficulty you will experience in the content instead of alternative options to effectively challenge the content?

Well why tie any mechanics to gear at all? That’s what you propose and hasn’t been done before. Suggesting that ACTIVE Defenses should be tied to passive stats is silly. There isn’t isn’t a similar mechanic for passive offensive stats so why should there be for defensive stats? Why would a build that already stacks tons of passive defense stats need access to stronger Active Defenses? Active Defenses are only useful in Active Combat if they are 100% effective. If they were scaled with passive defensive stats, that would defeat their whole purpose.

Not active defenses. Just the implementation of a mechanic that can take advantage of sturdiness, to turn it into a viable offensive option. GW2 added in dodge to allow the dps role to be free from its constraints within the trinity role, why not afford the same diversity to defensive stats, if we are going to have both exist side by side in the PvE environment.

Although I would really prefer nixing stats altogether. But since I will be speaking in hypotheticals anyway, I put forward the options that would garner the most scrutiny to facilitate conversation.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Croc.5129:

Spoj The Second.7680:

Actually offensive stats increase the effectiveness of your base damage.

And defensive stats increase the effectiveness of your base defence.

It just so happens that damage cannot be passive. But defence can. Your offensive stats arent increasing the number of ticks on a lava font or adding additional effects. Or reducing your ability cooldowns. Your base stats have changed. But the things which use those particular stats are offensive abilities. Defensive abilities are already at maximum effectiveness so you could argue that defensive gear stats have a far superior advantage. And they do considering how a nomads warrior can face tank mossman just healing signet.

So why not implement defense strictly through modifying the effectiveness of abilities rather than health and armor?

It seems like it would be more consistant and interesting a choice to focus on modifying your active abilities in all aspects of the game.

Its not as if auto-attack is the only thing affected by offensive stats. It still affects damaging utilities. Why not afford the same opportunity for active use in defensive gear? Make them all require more proper timing of abilities for maximum gain.

If you’re talking about removing stats from armor and weapons other than weapon damage and defense, I could see that. Hybrid made a similar point, have stats be the equivalent of Celestial for everyone. However, that ship sailed a long time ago. It’s not going to put into port for that big a revision. Imagine the massive outcry “taking peoples’ gear away” would provoke. That’s why I say I like the idea, but don’t ask for it.

Excactly that. Differentiation purely through ability modification, an expansion of the trait system, things of that nature.

I don’t expect anything in the game to really change from its base. This is all just for my own curiosity.

I do have to thank you all for humouring me on this. I have gained a greater understanding of community opinion on this particular matter over the course of the discussion.

Tman.6349:

It’s place in the grand scheme of things is to passively keep those players alive that otherwise couldn’t survive encounters due to mistiming/misuse of Active Defenses, latency, or whatever reason they might have. If it helps keep you alive and fighting to see another day, well then that’s how it’s useful to your team. They have a 5th member that they don’t have to keep rezzing and wasting their own stats/time. If you are already capable of using Active Defenses to stay alive and still chose to stack defensive stats, well then you’re just a stubborn kitten and I don’t think ‘team dynamics’ is your primary concern anyway…

Is this not something that can be managed through gameplay instead of gearing choices? More conservative fighters vs. those that can leap into the fray and survive with the use of their abilities?

Tman.6349:

Active Defenses already require proper timing for maximum gain. If you activate your dodge while no enemies are attacking, then you didn’t really gain much for the cost of your resources. If you cast a reflect while their are only melee enemies attacking you, then you didn’t really gain much for the cost of your resource. This is similar to using a big offensive attack while you’re blinded or using your blast finisher while a Light Field is still active instead of waiting for the Fire Field to take priority. Just b/c Active Defenses are 100% effective on their own doesn’t mean you just spam them willy nilly and all is well. O.o Once again, you’re trying to equate gear prefixes as some kind of ‘role’ or ‘play style’. They are not those things at all. Plz get this concept through your head. Passive, personal offense/defense slider scale. Nothing more…

And the purpose of this scaling offense/defense? Why not another system? Why tie it to the amount of difficulty you will experience in the content instead of alternative options to effectively challenge the content?

Spoj The Second.7680:

Why should defence effect control and support? Where is control and support defined as purely defensive?

Obviously you would lose damage if you dont take offensive gear. Your base damage stats are lower. You arent making any sense.

I mean there is no gear whatsoever that affects those abilities. Of course they are not only defensive. Might is certainly not defensive. They would need their own stats in order to be implemented, and I don’t want to implement stats to affect boons. Not when there are classes that have boon reliance as a whole part of their identity.

I am wondering where the value in defensive gear is when there are no tanking roles (a good thing), no tools to utilise your sturdy nature, and you have all the base mitigation you need in PvE to do the content.

Harper.4173:

Croc.5129:

Harper.4173:

GW2 has attracted the audience that want :

1)No trinity
2)No hard roles

And have given exactly what that audience wants.

Zerker wasn’t the meta when the game launched because :

1)People didn’t know the game’s mechanics
2)People didn’t know their own class
3)People didn’t know the encounters by heart.

All that has changes in 2+ years. You can’t undo those changes.

CC on the boss at the start of the game? I don’t remember that being a thing. CC is now more used than it was at the start. Proper parties use it anyway.

Also if you’re waiting for Anet to change the game just because of a few people on the forums – good luck then.

Nope. I have no such delusions about the future of the game. Its pretty much for my own understanding on how game mechanics stand and the people’s thoughts on the matter that I’m sticking around since the PAX announcement got my attention.

We all know we’re not going to change each other’s minds.

Not trying to change your mind.
I fear the PAX announcement will let you down

My expectations are more geared towards a larger than normal living story continuation. I would be surprised if the announcement can’t at least beat that.

Tman.6349:

Croc.5129:

Tman.6349:

You keep using a lot of different words as if they are synonymous for the one you’re implying. You can call it ‘play style’ or ‘role’ or ‘build’ or anything else but that won’t change the fact that you’re referring to gear stat prefixes as something they are not and never have been.

The gear you wear actively contributes to the whole of your character’s capabilities. Unless you are saying that the effects of the stats given are negligible, which we know is not true.

No. I’m saying that gearstats are nothing more than a passive, personal offense/defense slider scale and have never been anything more. The “thought” that you suggest should be implemented when picking ‘playstyle’ (lol, you really mean gearstats here again; passive facetanking is hardly considered a ‘playstyle’) are already there: “Do I want to do Condition Damage or Direct Damage?” and “Does my build have enough Active Defenses taken into account and how well do I keep myself alive using those Active Defenses?”. Those are the only two questions you need to ask yourself concerning gear. EVERYTHING else reguarding your build’s team support, control ability, etc are all reliant on your selection of weapons, utilities, and traits. That is how the game is designed. You’re just looking in the wrong place to establish your ‘role’ that you desire so much. It has nothing to do with gearstats. Those are personal and have nothing to do with what you perform as a party member. Well, unless you’re trying to force a ‘trinity roles’ system into the game anyway.

No. We have already discussed that we are looking for ways to have the stats be useful without implementing roles. I do not want hard roles. I have said this repeatedly.

And my damage does suffer when I opt not to wear offensive gear, making me less useful to the team, and my defensive gear does nothing of value to contribute to my ability to offer control and support, so where is its place in the grand scheme of things?

Harper.4173:

GW2 has attracted the audience that want :

1)No trinity
2)No hard roles

And have given exactly what that audience wants.

Zerker wasn’t the meta when the game launched because :

1)People didn’t know the game’s mechanics
2)People didn’t know their own class
3)People didn’t know the encounters by heart.

All that has changes in 2+ years. You can’t undo those changes.

CC on the boss at the start of the game? I don’t remember that being a thing. CC is now more used than it was at the start. Proper parties use it anyway.

Also if you’re waiting for Anet to change the game just because of a few people on the forums – good luck then.

Nope. I have no such delusions about the future of the game. Its pretty much for my own understanding on how game mechanics stand and the people’s thoughts on the matter that I’m sticking around since the PAX announcement got my attention.

We all know we’re not going to change each other’s minds.

Tman.6349:

And? What’s your point?

Offensive stats passively increase your ability to do damage and defensive stats passively increase your ability to facetank damage? That seems pretty straightforward to me…

Offensive abilities are not passive. The closest you could get to that is just having auto-attack be affected by your offensive stats.

It affords an intrinsic value to offensive stats that is not shared in others when those passive stats are not tied to mechanics that can be actively applied to defeat the enemy in a more effective manner.

Spoj The Second.7680:

Actually offensive stats increase the effectiveness of your base damage.

And defensive stats increase the effectiveness of your base defence.

It just so happens that damage cannot be passive. But defence can. Your offensive stats arent increasing the number of ticks on a lava font or adding additional effects. Or reducing your ability cooldowns. Your base stats have changed. But the things which use those particular stats are offensive abilities. Defensive abilities are already at maximum effectiveness so you could argue that defensive gear stats have a far superior advantage. And they do considering how a nomads warrior can face tank mossman just healing signet.

So why not implement defense strictly through modifying the effectiveness of abilities rather than health and armor?

It seems like it would be more consistant and interesting a choice to focus on modifying your active abilities in all aspects of the game.

Its not as if auto-attack is the only thing affected by offensive stats. It still affects damaging utilities. Why not afford the same opportunity for active use in defensive gear? Make them all require more proper timing of abilities for maximum gain.

Tman.6349:

What is the difference between wearing Soldier’s gearing and using a well timed ‘parry’ mechanic to stay alive and do significant damage vs. wearing Berserker’s gear and using well timed dodges to stay alive and do significant damage? The answer is Berserker’s+Active Defenses adheres to the games current design and isn’t a completely contrived idea to force homogenization. If the people that need to wear Soldier’s gear had the skill to time this parry mechanic then they would have already switched to Berserker’s+Active Defenses. This really just seems like a bunch of non-conformist hipster babble to me. Using Soldier’s gear, not because you need it, but only for the sake of Bering a speshul snowflake and then wishing for it to be changed to produce the same results of the same gearset you despise sounds completely disengenuine to me.

I don’t despise berserker gear. I keep saying I think berserker gear is fine.

What it would promote is different modes of thought for the individual when going into an encounter, while having to tackle a different array of variables to gain victory.

The result is not the important part so much as the process. I want a difference in the process of achieving victory.

Or GW2 can become an actual character action game and make the entire discussion moot.

Serophous.9085:

Croc.5129:

The point is to make them all actually require effort, and be rewarded for actually using their skills properly.

So then, a zerker who knows their rotation, knows when to dodge to not get killed or take dmg, doesn’t require effort. A zerker just walks up to a champ or legendary and starts wailing on it, never having to worry bout anything else?

No.

The berserker player does put in effort.

I would like for other gear choices to require similar amounts of effort for effective play.

Tman.6349:

You keep using a lot of different words as if they are synonymous for the one you’re implying. You can call it ‘play style’ or ‘role’ or ‘build’ or anything else but that won’t change the fact that you’re referring to gear stat prefixes as something they are not and never have been.

The gear you wear actively contributes to the whole of your character’s capabilities. Unless you are saying that the effects of the stats given are negligible, which we know is not true.

Serophous.9085:

rapthorne.7345:

X T D.6458:

I dont understand why zerker is the problem its just one of many available stats. If you or someone want to run a party full of clerics or condi builds nothing stopping you. Whats wrong with people running whatever they want, how would you feel if people were telling you what to run, and that what your running is wrong, chances are you have heard that so why go ahead and do the same exact thing to others? Let people run whatever the heck they want, dont like it, dont party up with them, dont run with them simple as that. People will always find the fastest way to do something. Get over it.

I will say that condition builds do need a long overdue buff for pve.

Berserker isn’t the problem, the fact that berserker is the only efficient way to PvE is. Something needs to be done to make things other than pure dps decent options

Actually, the problem is the dodge mechanic. Remove the 100% dmg free, and suddenly people will all have to wear some sort of toughness or vitality to survive some attacks.

But that is precisely why the dodge mechanic exists. It replaces the mitigation of tanks in the encounter dynamic, now that dps is not expected to rely on a tank to soak up the majority of damage.

The issue is the game does not have a wide enough range of mechanics to support other gearing options with the same efficiency in PvE, when the tools at hand are perfect for supporting the glass build properly to implement skilled play.

Tman.6349:

There doesn’t need to be “stats that effect our defensive tool”. Our Active Defenses are already at 100% effectiveness. That’s the point of active combat. Passive defense stats provide a buffer against mistiming/misusing those active defenses. The gear set stats only act as ‘role definition’ if you are wearing your ‘typical MMO’ blinders. Try getting rid of all of your preconceptions about how MMOs work or should be designed and accept GW2 on it’s own terms and all of these complaints will have proved themselves to be a figment of your imagination.

Offensive stats increase the effectiveness of offensive abilities.

Serophous.9085:

except it isn’t. Use the example of a boss that always stuns.

Sure, i could stack nothing but pwr/vit/tough and just take the hits and the dmg, OR I can change one skill on my bar to a stability skill and just keep dmging through it or using the get-out-of-all-dmg-free roll mechanic to survive along with any movement skills on my weapon that allows me to dodge.

heck, there are videos of people who do dungeons naked, and sometimes solo naked.

And then there are more of who just solo dungeons. They should be more rewarded then right? But they don’t get extra rewards at the end or gear, they get the same kitten people who ran it.

I mean, honestly, who should get rewarded more with gameplay? Someone who can dodge almost all the attacks, take next to no dmg? Or someone who stands there and just gets their face mashed in?

Actually, you know what? This could technically be done to see who did the best. Implement a scoring system. Take it off of Warframe. Who dealt the most dmg? most kills, least dmg taken, most healing, least deaths…etc, give them points, and whoever has the most wins gets a bonus.

It is your own decision to run a dungeon outside of its design parameters. If there was a solo mode, then there would be an argument, but they were not running content made for a single person. That is on the game.

Defensive stats do not do anything meaningful to contribute to victory in the current PvE environment, and enemy AI are too dumb to actually be a threat to the person with the heavy armor.

The fact that the person in heavy armor can do nothing but get smashed in the face is a part of the problem. Why tolerate that kind of passive play when there is an opportunity to implement mechanics which would allow for them to have to play dynamically, with a more active use of abilities to gain an advantage over their enemy.

The point is to make them all actually require effort, and be rewarded for actually using their skills properly.

IllegalChocolate.6938:

We can argue the toolsets of weakness, protection, regeneration, and well all defensive boons play in the hands of toughness setups, increasing the effective health of bunkers when played at proper moments. This generally is not represented as such outside WvW or sPvP due to the nature of PvE content currently.

And they can be applied effectively to a player in offensive gear in pve to keep themselves alive during an encounter. Since being a bunker is of no value in a game where aggro management is not nearly as controlled as in a trinity game, this makes a difference.

The reason an addition to the mechanics of the game was proposed is because in the absence of further tools, the only way to make defensive stats of similar value is to add roles to PvE, which we are trying to avoid.

My problem with defensive stats is that they are acting in the exact same way as in a trinity game when they are no longer part of a trinity environment, and they are dull as dirt when it comes to considering a playing option in PvE. Encounter design at this stage would only succeed in forcing roles to hard counter specific implementations, instead of existing in a more fluid and freeform rhythm of counterplay.

Eating an apple, a banana, and pear all taste different but will still end with food to fill you up.

The point is not the end result, but the gameplay required to achieve that result.

Changing encounter designs to actually require more diverse group setups would force roles into the game. Offering alternate styles and paths to the same goal is meant to allow people to find a combat style they prefer and apply it skillfully to high level play.

Stat implementation in the game as it was does not promote equivelancy when the risk/reward structure is so closely tied to the gear you put on instead of just your own personal gameplay.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Croc.5129:

Nobody is asking for the implementation of specific roles, just a wider variety of combat tools to apply to encounters.

Here you go! These are tools. These are things that you use in the game. Gear is stuff you wear. While some of these effects are produced passively, most are produced by taking actions. Stats are wholly and entirely passive.

I’d be fine with more tools, though it might take me some time to come up with anything that’s obviously lacking on that list. I’m fine with new mob mechanics. I’m not fine with convoluted schemes to bypass the opportunity cost of building bulky.

Someone in this (or another of the recent similar threads) cited Mordrem mobs as ANet’s attempt to “shake up the meta.” If those mobs have done anything it was simply to move the offense-defense stat slider for some players. The skill ceiling is higher to wear glass gear. That’s all it is, and that’s all you’re going to get unless dedicated roles get implemented.

The thing is, offensive stats have a very noticeable impact on the effectiveness of your tools, while your other tools are more isolated to the standard trait system. It does not make for a really compelling set of options. You have tools that capitalise on an increase in offense, where are the tools that do so for defensive setups? Its not like we’re expected to go into battle without gear, thats just something people do because they’re trying to challenge themselves and the base game is not that hard.

I am a believer in opportunity cost coming from your playing style rather than putting on tanky gear and expecting to be safe and snug and able to just waltz through content with fewer worries.

And I do not find the Mordrem to be compelling content.

We have left roles behind, but we still have stats that are used as if they are still expected to fulfill those specific roles.

maddoctor.2738:

Tanky players can already take hits, a LOT of hits compared to DPS players, and they can finish the encounter, only slower. What you want is those Tanky players that can’t die as easily as DPS players, to also do comparable damage by “playing well”?

You get 2 situations then.

One, if this “extra” damage of the Tanky player is lower than the damage of DPS players nothing will change.

Two, if this “extra” damage makes Tanky players do equal damage to DPS players then what’s the point of DPS players?

To facilitate different but equivolent combat tactics, with their own sets of challenges and mechanics to watch for in order to survive and excell in an encounter.

Tanky players can take lots of hits with little to no fear due to the mechanics of the game not challenging the player in this regard. This would have to change.

The trinity does not exist anymore, so why limit the use of stats to traditional trinity roles? Gear is not supposed to be a factor in deciding your place in damage/control/support, correct?

If this was a proper character action game where you were playing a specific character, you would have a game revolving around that character’s abilities, tactics, and weapon combos. Stats would not be necessary. This game does not have a high enough action pedigree to facilitate this, and has decided that stats still matter in some capacity. The most logical direction would be to simply design alternate equivolent paths to the same destination. Tanking mobs is no longer a role in the game like in a trinity game, and we do not want to force roles in the game, so apply them to something new, rather than leave them the same, which is wholly uninteresting in the current game’s implementation.

Whatever meta does arise from any changes in this regard, it is hopeful that it will encompass a greater variety on the axis of offensive and defensive setups. This goes beyond just adjusting numbers, this means adding on to the game as a whole to include more team dynamics and meaningful ability interactions.

Nobody is asking for the implementation of specific roles, just a wider variety of combat tools to apply to encounters. And if the game were in such a state that it was impossible to do in berserker gear, that would be a balance issue to be fixed.

Tree.3916:

IllegalChocolate.6938:

maddoctor.2738:

IllegalChocolate.6938:

Croc.5129:

Thaddeus.4891:

IllegalChocolate.6938:

nearly invincible eh?

care to put that to the test with a solo of the entirety of the volcanic fractal on lvl50?

I don’t think that anyone that would want to debunk that will pay for a full cleric ascended gear to have enough AR to go througth a level 50 Fractals. But here what I found.

Solo lupi with cleric Warrior
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKO11Y55DTM

Arah path 2 – Group of 5 with dodge disabled
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2VhmwLwvrM

These are all part of the problem. I can tank the spider boss in AC just fine with a mace and focus, but I’m not celebrating that kind of bland gameplay.

I will second this.

Active play should be a part of every archetype regardless if you are bunker or not. The difference is the active play methods that come into play.

The only things that really comes close is playing a bunker on point is sPvP, that is what bunker should be doing in PvE, not just some training wheels, but an actual tactical choice of engagement.

Bunkers in PVP have one role, to stay alive and stall the enemy team until help arrives to help them. That’s their main purpose and they spec for defense because they need to hold points. Holding an objective can be used in certain pve encounters, but can’t be used everywhere and for all boss encounters.

I would like to see it used in a method akin to shooters like Gears of War or Army of Two where the bunker is used as an advancing bulwark to provide a better combat position outside of point defense.

Guild Wars 2 even though an MMORPG borrows heavily from these types of games, the fact that you can swing wildly at nothing, the type of acrobatics you can achieve on legacy of foefire, the fact that DOWNSTATE is straight out of these games like borderlands, gears of war, etc. GW2 needs another push into the action direction and bunker setups can fit very nicely in the picture as the “heavy” of a squad setup.

You still aren’t understanding that boss encounters define how you play. PvP encounters require a bunker to absorb tons of dmg. There are no PvE encounters that require a player to absorb tons of dmg since large wind up attacks are telegraphed and dodgeable. What you really want is an encounter that requires a tanky player to absorb damage. Unfortunately for you, that will never happen in this game as “defined roles” are non existent.

So replace that instead with having the tanky player being able to take that hit and in exchange making the enemy vulnerable to more damaging assault, facilitated through ability use. Mistiming of said ability means the player takes bonus damage beyond normal as a consequence for not properly using their skill.

The point of all this is to find alternative replacements for roles, not just leave them in the same state as they were in the now obsolete environment GW2 left behind.

maddoctor.2738:

Bunkers in PVP have one role, to stay alive and stall the enemy team until help arrives to help them. That’s their main purpose and they spec for defense because they need to hold points. Holding an objective can be used in certain pve encounters, but can’t be used everywhere and for all boss encounters.

Holding your ground can be equated to not disengaging from the enemy in a pve environment. The process for that just needs to be more engaging than just being able to stand there and take hits.

Thaddeus.4891:

IllegalChocolate.6938:

nearly invincible eh?

care to put that to the test with a solo of the entirety of the volcanic fractal on lvl50?

I don’t think that anyone that would want to debunk that will pay for a full cleric ascended gear to have enough AR to go througth a level 50 Fractals. But here what I found.

Solo lupi with cleric Warrior
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKO11Y55DTM

Arah path 2 – Group of 5 with dodge disabled
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2VhmwLwvrM

These are all part of the problem. I can tank the spider boss in AC just fine with a mace and focus, but I’m not celebrating that kind of bland gameplay.

This is closer to what gameplay is like when you can’t play skillfully. The game should have to demand more from you for optimal play despite the armour you wear. I find it imbalanced.

You’ve presented a case that merely states that you are happy with the way things are, irregardless of whether it is better for overall game balance or not. You cannot say that gear is irrelevant when you have gear that has a direct influence on the abilities you use, and other gear that does not, at the very least.

I also never stated that hardcore players are wearing tanky gear. Why would they when the game offers no optimal path for tanky gear to proceed in that compares to going glass and tackling the content. Challenging content would include adaptive enemies that would use abilities that force the player to pay attention at all times, something as simple as the enemy noticing that it is not doing much damage with direct damage so it starts utilising abilities which may break through that defense, and the player needs to respond to that. Or the enemy notices that your armor is weak, and so ramps up the frequency of their attacks, and they then must be interrupted or weakened to counter their increased ferocity. You could have basic enemies that have no tools to deal with any of these things, but bosses should be more complicated affairs that would actually need to make one think.

And what interesting things can you do with that invincibility that opens you to any risk for a valuable reward? Just being able to stand there, take all the hits you want, and eventually be able to beat the enemy with nothing else to use it for, no actual challenge to open for yourself to show that you have actually learned the mechanics of the game, sounds boring and stale. And including abilities both players and npcs could use to answer this invincibility to encourage more active play would be a part of the overall balancing effort.

None of the changes that are being proposed would happen in a vaccuum.

Gameplay being dictated by gear is exactly what the ‘gear as difficulty slider’ is promoting though.

An inclusion of further base tools and abilities that could be used regardless of what you are wearing, but would become more advantageous depening upon whether you put on glassy gear or defensive gear, would follow the same philosophy that currently works where content can be completed naked, but putting on berserker gear ramps up your offense to cut down on the time to defeat the enemy further with greater effectiveness of abilities.

It just sounds like the game would be better off without gear stats being a factor at all, and just expanding the trait system to have more interesting ability modifiers.

It sounds like even having the existance of an advanced difficulty level would just have people complain that they cannot complete that difficulty level due to their lack of skill or time to get said skill due to other stuff in their lives. The base enjoyment would still be there for anybody who does not have the time or will to go deeper, why not just include more for those who can afford to take their gameplay further?

Just because utopia is out of reach does not mean one can’t go for the next best thing.

hybrid.5027:

Gear is a bi-axial measure of how much damage you estimate you will be able to mitigate in a given game mode. In a dungeon where you envision being able to avoid almost all attacks you should want to have gear that sacrifices passive defense for offense. In a WvW zerg where you can’t avoid all the damage a player would be foolish to not wear gear with passive defense. In sPvP if your teamrole is to be a point bunker you’re going to absorb a lot of damage and need tanky/sustain gear. If you’re a far point roamer you’re going to want glassier more dps oriented gear. People who argue that they want their Nomads necromancer to be accepted in dungeon speed runs as equal to a berserker are just as irrational as someone who wants to play a berserker amulet bunker Thief in ranked PvP.

The other axis is what kind of damage you do, direct or condition or a hybrid of the two.

The typical response I get when I point this out is “but but but but anet couldn’t possibly have wanted tanky gear to be nothing but training wheels in PvE!” You’re absolutely right! Anet knew quite shrewdly that for many players they would NEVER progress to the point where they would be able to take off the security blanket in PvE. Thus, they designed the encounters to be such that there are no fights in the game that cannot be completed in any gear type. Thus, they accounted for the fact that some people be forever in need of tanky gear, or prefer it for roleplaying reasons, and they tuned their bosses to be defeatable regardless of gear type. For many players, tanky gear isn’t training wheels and it isn’t a step on the ladder towards glassy gear. For many players tanky gear is the be all end all of their gaming experience, and thankfully the game does not artificially gear gate those players out of any content.

If being a bunker was the only part of teamplay in a sPvP match, that would actually be a problem. But it isn’t.

And what is so wrong with opening a higher depth of possible play for other armour types, when those who are comfortable at their current level can still play in the same relaxed way regardless of what others do?

I mean, I would want more difficult play as well, but if that is too divergent from the game’s philosophy, I would settle for some deeper game mechanics to expand the tools at our disposal.

The conversation has always been about what the game could be in comparison to what it currently is. All the quotes in the world will not help when the belief is that the system in place is too shallow to deliver a worthwhile experience.

It also does not help when the argument being made is that it is being kept shallow to be more inclusive of a wider audience.

hybrid.5027:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Guild_Wars_2#Combat

Combat in Guild Wars 2 is built around three facets: damage, control and support. Damage is simply decreasing the enemy’s health, control is preventing the enemy from doing what it wants, and support consists of working together with allies. Each profession is able to perform any of these roles. While some professions may be better at an aspect than others, no character is a specialist in a particular role. For example, there is no profession which focuses on the healing aspect of support – the best healing abilities available in the game are the compulsory self healing skills.

Do you all get it now? Does it make sense?

This is the game. this is guild wars 2. this is what anet designed. this is what they delivered and this is what we are all playing. If you don’t like it, open steam and find another game with a combat system designed differently.

And their reasoning behind the way they implemented gear?

The difference is if you are tanky and you remain in melee range, you have no tools that you can actually implement to further punish the enemy. You have the option to range on the enemy if you’re no good in glass gear, and utilise your dodges properly on the enemy when you knwo the encounter better. The enemy would also need to utilise further armour piercing abilities to compensate for tankier enemies they encounter. An increase in enemy variety in the PvE environment would be able to support this.

Nothing in what I suggested means the game has to get easir, if it were any easier I would probably fall asleep at the keyboard. I want an expansion on what the playerbase and the enemy AI is capable of to facilitate more complex and demanding forms of play than the simple, shallow interactions currently available.

If people were to complain over just 30 seconds of difference, I would not give a flying fig about that. The problem is there is nothing currently implemented that makes this an issue.

We have people touting that gear does not matter when it certainly has an effect on performance even by just having gear that increases the effectiveness of your abilities. But having other gear that’s alright just for taking hits and nothing else is fine? It is boring.

How in the world would expanding the capabilities of the playerbase and the AI take away from the berserker playstyle when berserker players can keep doing what they are doing, and other playstyles can actually have avenues of expression of skill that would mean you have to make an effort towards mastering your chosen path?

Even if you cant get a 1:1 ratio on equality, an effort to at least implement tools for actual divergent playstyles would open up more active differences in approaches to combat, putting more weight on all of the decisions you make with your character.

Harper.4173:

The combat in this game is already very different from other MMOs and sometimes difficult to master for casual players. Adding in this much is certainly doable but it would probably overwhelm the majority of players.

Also what you’ve just described is a dodge that also deals damage. So tell me – why wouldn’t it be easier to run as full tank if the clear times were similar but the risk was smaller ( due to the nature of the gear).

It would not negate full damage like a regular block, though a partial damage reduction would be likely, as well as a malus application to the enemy that would expose them to further damage by the player and their allies. Bonus malus for special attacks. With whatever health the player has left, they either decide to stay in the enemy’s attack range and take advantage of the malus, or fall back to recuperate, meaning they needed to watch their health more.

Also, missing the timing on the riposte means taking bonus damage from the enemy and a malus of their own, as they leave themselves wide open. I will not say that this current implementation is perfect yet, it was an idea thought of off the top of my head to illustrate ways in which different gameplay could be encouraged. For instance, how it would work with the likes of aegis or other blocking abilities would need further consideration for balance purposes.

As for the rest, I would still prefer narrowing the gap in effectiveness to something negligible enough that only the really hardcore would take true notice, as is their right to do so. Even if one meta was even more effective for a certain encounter compared to another, it would at least begin to bring in more variety that would require some more involved forethought. Anet are not gods, I’m not asking for complete perfection, but at least for the tools for different avenues to be available so that you have to put more thought into your choices.

As for the argument for the average player, that should still be something that is determined from their playstyle rather than what gear they decide to put on for a challenge. An offensive player poking in and out from the enemy because they have no faith in their ability to dodge attacks on the fly, a tanky player unwilling to open up and expose a weakness in their defense to catch the enemy unawares, meaning they do pinprick damage forever because they do not wish to take a risk, both playing it safe in their own style while they learn the content.

The game’s philosophy may not mesh with difficulty levels in dungeons, with wanting to keep content gating to a minimum, but it does not mean that gear has to be the implementation of difficulty control. As there would be different avenues of success and different paths through which to master the game, even if a meta were to arise, it would go some ways to narrowing the discrepency in effectiveness if alternative options actually had tools implemented in the game to be a factor.

I don’t want to do anything to berserker gear. The other tools at our disposal just need avenues of application. This does not have to affect the enjoyment of casual players, though I still would not say no to some more challenging content, just a deepening of the possibilities at hand, leaving the surface level understanding of the game more or less intact for those who are comfortable where they are.

Harper.4173:

Because challenge should be dictated by the content of the encounter, not the gear you are wearing. That is the mindset of gear in a trinity game, which GW2 is not.

Gear choice is another tool that is available to the playerbase to be used to challenge the content, and having only a narrow path of improvement is shallow, when the game could do so much more to expand on the game’s base mechanics.

Having one set be “do-or-die” when played well and another just be afk-tanking is not good or equivelant design. The enemy should have tools to challenge you to be your very best no matter what armour you are wearing, and your armour should provide the tools to handily defeat the enemy in a variety of fashions depending on the tools you use.

Expand the meaning of skilled play beyond the shallow concept that going glass is the most rewarding. Add in mechanics that will allow multiple paths to threatening the enemy in a viable manner, while equating the risk between strategies.

What I am looking for is a game that can equate risk not with the gear that you are wearing, but rather with the way you yourself are playing the game. Everything is set up wonderfully to emphasize the risk/reward relationship when it comes to playing a glass setup, but that does not work when you are wearing alternate forms of gear. If I have the fortitude to take a hit, why not add in a block or parry mechanism equivelant to dodge which allows me to throw that toughness in my enemy’s face and open them for further punishment? Attach to that mechanic the risk of exposing yourself with a misstimed block with the consequence of receiving massive amounts of damage, and possibly a malus to healing received, stamina regeneration, etc. Something in that general direction. Or add in new utilities to interact with one’s defensive stats to similar effect or otherwise.

I am not familiar with the implementation in GW1, but I would rather have a balance issue that can be addressed and modified compared to a load of nothing that leaves no room for alternative growth. The use of active abilities and timing was something I thought the game promoted.

Conditions are also of much more value in WvW and sPvP, and I would hardly call their PvE implementation balanced.

Its fine that they have a use in sPvP and WvW, but so do offensive sets. I know roamers can enjoy some success in more offensive focused gear and trait setups, adding in some passive defense to give breathing room in an environment where you are being attacked by an unpredictable enemy with actual intelligence. sPvP I am most familiar with the dps meditation build for guardians, and there is room for direct damage and condition builds in that area of the game as well. Bunker builds are the closest thing to a point where staying alive in and of itself is of the greatest value, and they are more than point defenders, they are roaming support in a battle where attrition is an actual factor. But if we had players good enough to avoid damage and manage with their heal ability even in this kind of environment, they would have no need for this passive defense, because as it is currently implemented, it has no intrinsic value over your own inherent defenses.

There is nothing inherent in any class that could completely replace the value of your offensive stats, as they act as a permanent, constant increase to the modifiers of your damage abilities, especially not after the nerf to might. The mitigation tools inherent to classes can more than compensate for passive defenses when they are played well, so to add some depth to the game, why not actually add some value to these stats in their own right that would reward active and skillfull play?

Nobody is asking for anything to be taken away from the game, just added on top of the already existing system to expand the possible mechanics. No punishing certain armour types, no more cheats like creating enemies immune to criticals, no useless nerfs to might, just some real honest to goodness depth to expand the scope of what skillfull play is.

Harper.4173:

You do realize a play style will eventually become the “de facto playstyle” because of the community.

That play style is usually the one that gets the job done fastest and even if zerker wasn’t the meta ( because of changes) the next-in-line fastest solution would be.

Damage avoidance replaces damage reduction for those who are skilled enough. I would say for the majority of GW2’s players damage avoidance does not replace damage reduction because the majority of players aren’t full zerker specs.

The majority needs that damage reduction because the majority can’t really play that well.

The fact that pure glass is viable for good and very good players is a side-effect of the fact that the game is aimed at the average and below average in terms of skill level.

Since it’s designed to be manageable for someone of low or average skill it becomes easier the more skilled you are.

A game can’t simultaneously be easy for the less skilled and hard for the very skilled.

Also you don’t seem to differentiate between role and gear choice which are two entirely different things.

Example :

A warrior in full zerk with a GS or AXE could be considered DPS.
A warrior in full zerk with a hammer or mace is Control.
A warrior in full zerk traited for banners is Support.

They have the same gear – they have different roles in the fight and different things they bring to their party.

Then why can the same not apply to those who decide to put on defensive gear? Why has the game completely ignored the contribution of defensive stats when it comes to combat encounters in PvE? It is not that difficult to come up with alternative methods to allow for similar clearing times and risk/reward dynamics.

You can increase the damage output of your offensive abilities with offensive stats, but putting on defensive gear doesn nothing for your abilities, and the game just expects you to sit there and take hits without providing mechanics to allow you to take advantage of your gear choice to hasten the defeat of your enemy. Punishing the enemy for attacking you is the simplest of mechanics that could be implemented in this way, but Anet has done nothing special in comparison to regular trinity games in that regard.

Why implement stats if you’re not going to do anything of note with them? Stats may as well not exist in that case, and GW2 should implement a system that completely relies upon ability modifying traits, runes and sigils. At least the game would not pretend it has more depth than it actually does. Then it would be an actual choice, rather than having the game pretend it has more depth than it actually does.

Dedlaw.9130:

Devs don’t determine what the meta is, players do. Players figure out which of the viable options is the most effective.

And damage was always suppose to take priority. Yes, all builds should be viable, but all builds have one thing in common – damage. All classes were made into DPS with different types of tanking and healing spread out over different builds. It’s why you can’t constantly heal or defend – at some point you have to stop and do damage.

So for the players looking to optimize their gameplay, it was just a matter of seeing what does the most damage. If you nerf zerker then something else will just take it’s place. As long as there are people who min/max, there will be a meta and some damage dealing build will be it. Nothing ANet does, no amount of balancing/nerfing/encouraging/restricting, will ever change that.

Would adding to the game’s mechanical depth, and implementing additional mechanics that can take advantage of alternate gearing choices be a good start?

The lack of meaningful interaction with defensive stats is a part of the problem. If it were really a part of the control dynamic, then defensive stats would be of use to punish an enemy’s attack in order to leave them more vulnerable in some capacity to player assault, with a tradeoff to make it more risky for the player as well when they are playing optimally in this dimension of combat.

Instead, you can just take some extra hits to get the long, boring road to victory, without any meaningful gameplay changes. It makes the choice for the best gameplay rather clear, and I find that wholly uninteresting.

The ways in which skillfull play can be expressed in the game are too limited in scope. I play the same whether I have nomad gear or berserker gear anyway, since the core of my strategy really does not change. Aegis, reflection, blind, protection, might, weakness, vigor, stability, all the support I need right there, easily within reach. Then I can slap on gear to control how much harder I hit the enemy with my attacks. Even when not dps focused, my gear allows me the damage I want while still giving close to maximum support.

There is no equivalent to that with a defensive setup. No effect on abilities like offensive gear, no equivalent active ability to dodging that can be utilised to take advantage of one’s sturdier nature to throw the enemy for a loop, just the same tankiness as in regular trinity games, implemented in a game that has prided itself on no longer having the trinity. If the game is going to keep the same stats, there needs to be some innovation in this area.

Nothing needs to be removed, berserker is fine as it is, but things need to be added so that a player who wants to be able to go toe to toe with the enemy has to utilise all of their abilities with perfect efficiency no matter the armor they wear or traits they use, and bring killing times closer together whether you are hitting like a truck or opening the enemy to further damage. Changes that would allow one to express skill in multiple ways, allowing for more avenues by which one can enjoy the combat.

maddoctor.2738:

But that’s exactly what is happening in the game right now. Changing your weapons / traits / skills depending on the situation is important and knowing what to use and when to use it is the actual player skill required.

The “Problem” with tanking gear is that it makes people not die as easily, if offers a buffer in their survability. When players understand the encounters, and the tools at their disposal, better, they can switch to more damaging gear. I don’t see a problem with that really, changing to more and more offensive gear as you get better and better at an action-oriented game isn’t bad.

Content is already very easy with “tanking” gear, you stand there and take all hits never getting downed. With more offensive gear, a few simple mistakes will lead to your death, why should tanking gear be made even better then?

The problem is not that there are no tools to play with, just that the range of effective tools is narrow, and defensive stats are mostly cut out of many interactions with the most meaningful build choices you can make.

When you say playing with defensive gear is easier, you are just stating what I see is part of the problem with the game. Every single video where a man can just face tank an enemy without having to utilise the full range of their options is something I see as a design flaw caused by the lack of mechanical association between one’s available abilities and their defensive stats.

Difficulty of the game should nto be something determined by gear, but by the individual encounter you are trying to face. Just being able to stand there and take damage without having to rely on your abilities is also a design flaw of the game without any underlying mechanics to take advantage of with the extra survivability.

Gear should offer alternative tactics which are just as effective and carry just as much risk across the board, with meaningful mechanics to support that. A bad player in tanky gear would do pitiful damage to the enemy until their armor was penetrated and crushed. A good defensive minded player would be able to throw the enemy off balance and attack them while they are vulnerable using their skills, while a berserker would continue with an equivelant strategy of dodging the enemy’s attacks and then hitting the enemy right back with the force of an avalanche, while trying to avoid being overwhelmed by the enemy’s assault. Enemy AI improvement would go a long way to supporting this kind of adaptability.

The way the game is set up right now is so simple that there is only one linear path to mastering the content, and I find it boring. And as long as the base mechanics remain the same, no matter what mordrem are added in, the way to improve will always be to pile on offensive stats. There is no real give and take in this kind of system.

I am asking for an expansion of the game’s content so that actual skilled play can be expressed in multiple different ways, which would mean toning down inherent value of defensive stats in exchange for the implementation of affecting defensive abilities for similar effect, so that you can punish the enemy for attacking you instead of just standing there and being able to auto-attack to victory. Making one have to work and properly apply their abilities in order to not have to retreat from the enemy if they build themselves that way, instead of only being able to improve your abilities with offensive stats. Healing can be improved too, but the investment is never worth it in comparison to focusing on your offensive stats.

If blocking for instance were an equivelant stamina draining ability to dodging in the game, where you want to catch an enemy’s attack for a debuff or a change in their current state which would allow them to take even more damage, or do less damage to your allies, while blocking simultaneously also leaves you exposed if you time it improperly, making you take even more damage. And a successful block will still leave you with a damage malus, which can be decreased to negligible levels with a high enough amount of toughness. This is a rough idea just to illustrate one possible thing the game can add in to expand playing potential.

Understanding the encounter should mean utilising the skills you have to defeat the enemy in the most efficient way possible. It just so happens that the game only supports a narrow understanding of that efficiency with its current implemented mechanics, with a lack of meaningful interactions with defensive stats being implemented. The end point of all this is that any group, with any combination of builds and gear, can mix their abilities together in order to achieve equivelant clearing times when they work to the best of their focus, with the difficulty of the encounter being what challenges the group’s skill.

The problem is that while the tanking role was removed, the stats remained, without any actual mechanics being added in to allow for interesting alternative strategy within the game, or even giving an effect to our active abilities. This, combined with an unchallenging PVE environment, leads to a very narrow choice when it comes to wanting to maximise your efficiency and skill with the game as it currently stands, leaving other options as sub-optimal outside of acting as a crutch.

If the best you can do with maxed out tanking gear is just facetank the enemy, it really isn’t all that interesting an option in a world without any proper aggro management.

No armour sets should be gotten rid of, the game just needs to add in mechanics to expand the role of the less popular stats so that they are not considered so woefully inefficient in comparison to damage enhancing stats. The ideal would be an environment where people can express skill with the game in different dimensions depending on all the tools they use, with difficulty only being determined by the actual encounters.

GW2 cut out the mechanics that required tanks and healers for encounter success (adding in dodge, no taunts), but failed to actually innovate and implement interesting mechanics to make use of defensive stats in their new system, even though they still implemented the stats.

The game has not diverted far enough from the usual MMO mold mechanically to actually make room for these other stats now that tanks and dedicated healing are not the order of the day.

Why for instance wasn’t a bracing stance implemented, an equivelant to dodging itself that those in tanky gear could use to actively punish their attacker instead of dodging, using their stamina in order to open up the enemy when hit, invoking a state change and allowing for greater damage to be dealt through proper timing and taking advantage of their sturdier build.

That ability is a simple example, but the point is, where are the mechanical interactions like this in the base game? Between support abilities which remain static in their effect no matter what your gear and the simplicity of the AI, its really no wonder the path of mastery is so narrow.

Tman.6349:

I would love to make a compilation of every enemy in the game that can one shot a berserker geared player for you, but it would would take too long. Zerkers are already punished plenty for misusing active defenses. It’s hard to notice sometimes b/c they are very powerful and timing is easy once you’ve learned enemy mechanics. To say that enemies don’t do enough damage to is just wrong though. There are even enemies who will one or two shot a fully defensive spec for that matter.

Anet likes their ‘metrics’. If there wasn’t GEAR diversity at all, like is claimed, then perhaps they might make some changes. The fact that there appears to be no shortage of players running around in non-DPS gear sets (just look at all the “die zerker’s!!!”, “boo to the zerker meta!!”, etc threads that appear) would suggest that there is am rather vast community of non-meta players in the game. Perhaps the significant difference is the meta players have learned and taken initiative to group with like-minded players while the anti-meta crowd just kitten and moan and expect Anet to police the game and solve their PERCIEVED ‘problems’ for them. Maybe you guys should all band together and develope consistency among yourselves. Or…you could play a little bit of devil’s advocate and wear nothing but berserker gear, PROVING that NO OTHER gear is useful or desired.

Creating unsubstantiated threads rapid fire on the forums will ‘solve’ nothing though. These threads aren’t some novel, new thing. They’ve been droning on for almost two years now and have yet to make a point that isn’t derived from emotions or anecdotes.

People putting on suboptimal gear just because they like the idea of it does not transform the game into something that actually properly supports their gearing choice. Metrics don’t tell the whole story.

The meta is not something that all players are concerned with, so they go into any old dungeon, do whatever they want, and are fine with it. This game is easy enough to allow for that. But if somebody wants to reach for a greater skill level in accordance to the mechanics the game presents you with, the shallow mechanical depth leaves a very narrow path. It gets boring.

A berserker being able to dodge every attack and hit back to achieve maximum damage potential is exactly how one should play in glassy gear. The game has the basic setup for how one should play a glass character down just fine.

But how does one play to an equivelant optimal level when you are in tanky gear? You have all that toughness and vitality, and what do you use it for? Standing around and whittling away at a giant health bar? When your damge will be so much poorer than the berserker and they can keep whacking with enough frequency to just outpace you in any encounter situation?

You should have something that lets you actively turn that sturdiness into strength so that you can punish the enemy for trying to break through your armour, hence the basic premise behind the guard mechanic idea. They take the hit, with some damage reduction, in a way a glassy character never could, but they punish the enemy greatly for it and proceed to capitalize on that opening. Mistiming the guard ability means that you not only waste your stamina, but you lose health for absolutely no gain, and need to recover that before the next opportunity to guard comes in, so that you can actually stay in melee range while the smaller hits wittle away at your thicker armour.

Also, just because an enemy can one shot you does not mean it is dangerous. The AI is dumb, and dodge is the all powerful nullifier. Even taking different skill levels into account, it really is not all that stimulating.

It doesn’t help that things like boons and non-damage conditions have absolutely no scaling with any stat regarding their intensity, while your offensive abilities are boosted by putting on offensive gear. Boosting of abilities is good, why is it so limited in a game that wishes to have the focus be on ability use?

oxtred.7658:

A guy in tanky gear doesn’t have to dodge> It’s a dps gain over dodging> your suggestion is already implemented

No it isn’t. If it were, that would be another imbalance entirely. There has to be mechanics put in place to have the player actively take advantage of their sturdier character in order to deal equivelant damage in a scenario where they are expected to go toe to toe with the enemy.

As it is now, enemy attacks on the whole are not dangerous enough to make someone in offensive gear back off for a significant enough amount of time that the extra defense would even things out. Plus, that would be very annoying for the offensively geared person if it were implemented that way.

Dramen Maidria.1034:

Defensive stats DO have a purpose, for those people who aren’t skilled enough to run full damage gear in any given situation to have the additional armor or health to survive. Not everyone needs it, but for those that do it keeps them alive.

That is sidestepping the difficulty of the challenge. Something which should only be determined by the difficulty of the dungeon or encounter, not gear.

The game’s shallow mechanics don’t allow for aenough dimensions for expressing skill, so it all gets so kitten boring, and renders a whole swath of build and gear combinations as suboptimal by default.

Choosing between playing well and just playing how you want is not a real choice at all if you care about actually getting better at the game.

The game requires base mechanical changes to the way in which ability scaling works in order to truly get to that point, in addition to better encounter design.

For instance, the addition of a guard stance to punish an enemy’s attack when properly timed, leaves the enemy in an altered state which makes them vulnerable to further damage, meaning people in more defensive gear will both be able to take advantage of not needing to get away from the enemy as often, since it will not cancel out damage like a dodge, but still serve to further the goal of killing the enemy. It will require a different skill set in comparison to a person in more offensive gear, but serve to kill the enemy just as efficiently when mastered.

hybrid.5027:

Iris Ng.9845:

Croc.5129:

hybrid.5027:

Oh my the twists and turns of this thread.

On topic,

Someone made a rather unlettered recommendation that having higher Vitality should increase dodges.

I’m down.

so long as we’re doing that, though, increased Power should lower weapon skill cooldowns. Increased precision should increase the damage of my attacks the closer I am to my target. Increased Ferocity should increase my attack speed.

Sounds fair to me. Let’s do it.

The vitality idea is not one I agree with, but you could only equate it with power, ferocity and precision if those stats only affected your weapon auto attack, and absolutely nothing else.

And the simplistic way the core of the game currently works, that would still be offering more than raising any other stat.

Sure way. I approve! Let the warrior meta resurrect!

Nah, Lightning Whip and Lightning Hammer autos would be insane.

Lightning hammer would not be affected by stats either, as it is a conjured weapon, not a base weapon. The whip would get some mileage though.

Iris Ng.9845:

Croc.5129:

hybrid.5027:

Oh my the twists and turns of this thread.

On topic,

Someone made a rather unlettered recommendation that having higher Vitality should increase dodges.

I’m down.

so long as we’re doing that, though, increased Power should lower weapon skill cooldowns. Increased precision should increase the damage of my attacks the closer I am to my target. Increased Ferocity should increase my attack speed.

Sounds fair to me. Let’s do it.

The vitality idea is not one I agree with, but you could only equate it with power, ferocity and precision if those stats only affected your weapon auto attack, and absolutely nothing else.

And the simplistic way the core of the game currently works, that would still be offering more than raising any other stat.

Sure way. I approve! Let the warrior meta resurrect!

In case I somehow made myself unclear, I think this is a bad thing.

Its why I think the way toughness and vitality are currently implemented in the game do not work, but the vitality to stamina thing is not the way I believe it should be addressed.

Discrepencies in ability power scaling and expansion of game mechanics are my primary concern, because these are the factors which make it so that the meta stays as it is with little room for growth in other dimensions of combat.

hybrid.5027:

Oh my the twists and turns of this thread.

On topic,

Someone made a rather unlettered recommendation that having higher Vitality should increase dodges.

I’m down.

so long as we’re doing that, though, increased Power should lower weapon skill cooldowns. Increased precision should increase the damage of my attacks the closer I am to my target. Increased Ferocity should increase my attack speed.

Sounds fair to me. Let’s do it.

The vitality idea is not one I agree with, but you could only equate it with power, ferocity and precision if those stats only affected your weapon auto attack, and absolutely nothing else.

And the simplistic way the core of the game currently works, that would still be offering more than raising any other stat.

A correct solution is better than an incorrect solution because it leads to the correct result, which in this case means the death of the enemy.

The meta is more akin to comparing 2+2=4 vs. 1+1+1+1=4. They are both correct, but one is a lot less tedious than the other, more efficient in reaching the goal.

The problem with the meta is that the game is lacking in mechanical depth such that 5-1, 2*2, or 8/2 has not been implemented in its core design. Its all addition, just like every other mmo, further compounded by the intensity of boons and non-damage conditions being completely decoupled from your stats, while offensive abilities gain a substantial boost from your gear.

There is no room for growth in any other direction the way the game currently stands, and if that was the intention from the onset, the other gear never should have been implemented, and traits should have been much more heavily focused on for affecting the behaviour of your abilities.

Gear should never be seen as a safety net. The game should take care of that by offering different levels of challenge and leave it at that.

Windsagio.1340:

As a wise man said, “if you can always make 3pointers why would you ever do layups?”

The thing is, with the increasing incidental damage and general chaos that theoretical margin of error keeps getting smaller and smaller, and eventually vanishes.

It’s not every fight, nor should it be, but let’s not pretend everyone plays perfectly all the time and that everyone always has their active tools available when they needed them.

In the truly difficult fights sometimes you’re going to take some hits, and sometimes the only thing to do if you’re only running melee is to get out of the way for a while.

~~~

Honestly everybody seems to think they’re ‘that guy’ though, the one that can avoid everything. From watching people play, especially in SW, I think it’s more a case of self-selection. A zerker player with any kind of skill can (and often does) simply avoid entering those situations where they can’t perform. This isn’t judgement on them, it makes sense, and all content in GW2 is optional.

It does however warp personal experiences though, oftentimes you barely notice you’re doing it, and there’s a huge difference between ‘fine in every circumstance’ and ‘fine in every circumstance you take part in’.

I want more armour combinations to be useful. But I want that usefulness to be expressed through the mechanics of the game, allowing for defensive setups to take advantage of their sturdiness to put the enemy off balance and expose them for increased damage, or to have their mitigation matter more than the mitigation of a person armored up in gear meant to annihilate their enemies with the biggest stick they could find.

My problem is that there is no room for growth besides ramping up the damage. As a player, maybe you can’t reach that perfect gameplay in berserker armour, but the way the game is now, that relegates you to wearing gear that doesn’t help you kill the enemy faster, or help engage the enemy in another meaningful fashion that will lead to killing the enemy faster, but just to allow you to take extra hits.

Difficulty modifiers.

Encounter design is a big part of the problem too, but without a means of truly taking advantage of the other stats in meaningful, game changing ways, Anet will just put in more bosses that are immune to critical damage, an inelegent and blunt solution that sidesteps the root of the matter entirely.

Even with the living story, no matter what enemies they’ve added in, it all boils down to the same thing. Its boring.

Windsagio.1340:

This is the damage fixation thing again. We’re in a position where mad dammy isn’t the only concern, and where it can get chaotic enough that you can’t accurately predict all the possible things that can 1shot you.

The bosses don’t matter, the important thing is that you do follow the rules of the particular boss (so don’t 100B the Husk).

When we have a full server, it doesn’t really matter, nothing really gets out of control and your margin of error stays reasonable.

When you get into the actual hard content in the zone, saving failing forts and such, all of a sudden it does matter, and melee berzerker is one of the least optimal setups.

The problem is, it still makes a person in zerker gear who is skilled at dodging the ultimate expression of skill within the game.

Sturdier armor doesn’t change encounter dynamics, or open up a different way to render the enemy vulnerable, it just acts as a difficulty modifier for the individual player.

The game’s core mechanics lack a means of turning your inherent mitigation into tangible power to be used against the enemy, and as long as that is the case, the advantage will always go to berserker gear.

Being able to take an extra hit means nothing when you can’t really do anything interesting with it.

If this narrow path of mastery was actually implemented on purpose, it makes some of the game’s design choices questionable, especially having stats on gear.

If it does not actively contribute to improving you as a player within the mechanics provided, there is a balance issue somewhere in there.

spoj.9672:

Not equal in their damage output, but equal in their ability to get to the end of a challenge at with similar levels of difficulty.

This doesnt make sense. If the damage output is different then the ability to complete the content should vary in completion time. And if more support/defence is taken then the difficulty should be diminished. This is currently how it already works.

Control players weaken the enemy’s defenses so that their more meager attacks will do the damage, and keep the enemy from more frequently punishing their weak defenses.

Support players create more frequent openings in their enemy’s defenses so that they can do damage that way, combined with boosting their own abilities, though their direct damage without these boosts or these openings is not equal to an an unaided damage player. They need to time their abilities properly or else leave themselves vulnerable, as their base ability to do damage is not great, and using their defensive abilities too early leaves them vulnerable to assault.

A damage player will do much, much more damage per hit, but their lack of defense and weaker control of the enemy means they will have to more properly choose when to strike the enemy with their strongest attacks, and have to more frequently withdraw from dangerous situations before heading back into battle to keep up their damage.

Even after that, you can mix these groups in any way you like and still come out with similar results as long as all players utilised their characters optimally.

It puts a different angle on what efficiency means when more paths to a quick victory are made available. And it provides for greater options around which to build content.

For the sake of definition:

Damage(Greatest offensive capability)

Control(Weakening and debilitating the enemy)

Support(strengthening allies, mitigation of damage and conditions)

It would also help if stats were decoupled completely from the trait lines, since traits should be able to act as ability modifiers without having to worry about extra bonuses.

Damager gameplay remains unchanged, they do damage by hitting the enemy really hard while still having access to traits and utilities for cleansing conditions and granting much weaker boons than a character focused in support. This trend is universal throughout the classes. Though each hit will do much more damage to an enemy, their weaker constitution and defensive capability will force them to disengage more often. Leaving their attacks uninterrupted allows them to completely destroy their enemy.

Deal with damagers by controlling their movements, weakening their assault power and mitigating their attacks.

Control characters weaken the enemy with conditions to make them take more damage from individual hits, limit enemy movement, counter the benefits of enemy boons and utilise more boon stripping to make their conditions even more effective. They will need to watch out for condition cleansing abilities more, since without those conditions on the enemy their attacks are as threatening as wet noodles. Traits to add extra effects to your conditions will apply.

Deal with controllers by cleansing their conditions, plowing through their meager defense swiftly, or using your boons to counter the effect of their conditions.

Support characters have incredibly powerful boons, low base attack, and low condition ability. Blocks would no longer inherently just block 100% damage, and would scale with toughness both in mitigation and in a mechanic i am dubbing ‘riposte’ for now, which boils down to putting a debuff on an attacking enemy when they hit you while you are blocking, making them vulnerable for a limited amount of time. Traits can be used to lengthen the amount of time an enemy player stays under the ‘riposte’ state, determine whether the riposte state can be activated outside of a block (traits like “When an enemy hits you, you, they will enter the riposte state. CD: 30 seconds”) and change the cooldown length of a weapon or utility type under which the block is governed, but toughness (or whatever stat, just something to scale with) determines how great the vulnerability will be. This has crossover with the role of control, but blocks come under mitigation, so is paired with support. Effects of this vulnerability state can be discussed. Balancing will need to be done to determine the mechanics of stacking riposte effects on the attacker so that multiple blocks at once do not feel like a waste.

Reflects can keep the full damage reflection capability as it currently exists, but the damage reflected back will scale with toughness, meaning that in damage gear, damage reflected back is negligable at best, but in high ‘toughness’ gear a larger percentage of the damage reflected by the barrier is returned to the enemy. Traits will affect things like length and ability to reflect different classes of projectiles, seperated into minor and major projectiles for example.

Healing can work as it currently does, just needs some rebalancing in terms of coefficients and encounter applications.

Deal with support using boon stripping, conditions to weaken the effects of support abilities, and saving your most powerful attacks for when they have used up their defenses, capitalizing on moments of weakness where mitigation is at its lowest.

These changes would also make who does what in the combo system more significant as well. Coordination of fields for extra applications of powerful boons and conditions would encourage more communication and be another consideration for weapon/utility choice. The character’s strength would matter even more when they use a combo field.

Mix and match groups as you please, with pure groups using one strategy, and mixed groups using another, taking advantage of the strengths of their allies.

There would be balancing issues to work out between these changes, but this kind of interplay, allowing for different roads to reach the same goal, is ultimately what the discussion is about.

There should be no such thing as an inherently ‘safe’ playstyle, they should all have their weaknesses and pitfalls to be exploited by the enemy. Nobody should be saying they are skilled because they completed the challenge as a glass cannon, they should be skilled because they completed the challenge.

The next challenge after that is expressing these paths differently from class to class to keep them from being homogenous, if we are to follow the philosophy that all classes should be capable of all roles, which is a worthy goal to keep, but a baseline needs to be established first.