Guild Wars 2

FricoRico.6893:

Even though you are right about this, I can understand that a native client is not interesting for a developer. Therefore a Wine/Cider/Transgaming port is not as bad as you’d think. Most games for Mac (read: almost all) are a Wine port.

Well we have to separate “developer” from “institutional habit”. Most of the developers I know don’t have a vote, and moreover don’t really care as long as they get what they need to do the job. Most of these design & technical spec decisions are made by the management team at the studio.

What you say about Mac games being mostly wrapped Windows games is mostly true. However status quo doesn’t mean that it needs to continue that way. Especially when all mobile devices — portable computers — (except Windows Phone) are OpenGL platforms. While most app store games are 2D/libgdx/libcocos — most anything that is 3D is OpenGL-based.

But forget that — excellent OpenGL game engines have been produced to help studios & developers build multiplatform for desktop, mobile and console: Unreal, Marmalade, Unity.

I’m somewhat sympathetic with GW2 from a timeline perspective. I think development started back in 2007. It wouldn’t have been possible for them to make a perfectly portable spec back at that time using 3rd party stuff. They could have decided to use OpenGL, but Microsoft deliberately tried to sabotage OpenGL in 2007 by gimping it in Windows Vista. I’m sure that made those early development decisions lean towards DirectX. So, GW2 currently has its own engine, uses Havok for physics, and some other 3rd party stuff in the Windows toolchain.

Fast forward to 2012, and GW2 launch — lots has changed. I’m sure they’d go back and do a number of things differently if they could. From my POV, any arguments that there are no developers to do OpenGL work is a myth, one probably started by Microsoft. Look at all the OpenGL 3D apps showing up on app stores now. Those get done because there is demand. Microsoft engages game studios directly which is something the OpenGL side doesn’t do, so I’m very leery of people who run AAA game studios and the kind of behind the scenes relationships that exist with Microsoft.

But mostly … it’s out of the AAA studio comfort zone, it’s lack of will, and some entrenched practices — not a technology or “ease of development” issue.

AAA studios will be dragged into OpenGL because mobile market share will force them to eventually. They won’t go because we’re asking nicely. :-) Especially when Cider & Wine are there as a crutch.

I do agree, let’s get this client to work as well as it can work. I wish ArenaNet would come forward with some kind of roadmap for this client, and be real with us about it. I’ve said before, it’s very unlikely that ArenaNet would switch tracks and build a native client for GW2 at any stage. GW2 will get more content but the tech will not change.

I’m glad folks like you are working on resolving some of these problems. All I can do is muster what is left of my time/energy at the end of the day to write these posts, I don’t even play anymore. Hopeful that if there is a GW3, that ArenaNet goes all in on OpenGL and finally OSX & Linux users will get a client that isn’t a 2nd class citizen.

It’s not dev-bashing to say that there has been poor communication. Let’s say, some timeline for the Mac client to exit beta, or to have some roadmap if this client is not the future client. Considering that it has been 5 quarters since launch, and the company continues to accept money from Mac users on BLTP. I think Mac users are entitled to some expectations.

ArenaNet has been not set any expectations as they have for Windows users, but they will take your money all the same. I’m sorry but I can’t help but be disappointed by that, and I feel all Mac users should be as well. It’s a bad relationship with the customers.

OpenGL is a provably more efficient pipeline than D3D. Abstracting D3D on top of an OpenGL based system (Mac/Linux) is considerably less efficient than it could and should be. While I appreciate the tone and intention of your post, it’s not really accurate to say that this Transgaming port of the Windows code will ever be efficient like native code.

The native client for WoW makes this obvious.

I would hope that GW2 looks at the ARPU coming from its Mac users, I assume they do. ARPU for Mac users in other companies tends to be higher (Linux users outspend Windows users on average, too). I don’t know why it would be any different with GW2.

Taken as a part of overall revenue, and long-term technical strategy, it would end up that they would consider the OpenGL development path practically a necessity — or at least an abstraction layer that allows for any graphics API you want (DirectX, OpenGL). OpenGL and DirectX aside from a handful of minor technical differences, provide the same thing. They could provide the same game with the same IQ for Windows users under OpenGL.

But for all this argumentation, it’s probably past the point of no return. Guild Wars 2 was built with a certain tech spec, and almost never does a developer deviate from that in a product after a release. They’ll be focused on adding content and extracting more revenue where they can.

What we CAN hope for, if there’s a Guild Wars 3 someday, that ArenaNet does the more sensible thing and makes it an OpenGL foundation. Till then I seriously doubt a native Mac client will ever happen, no matter how much money Mac users blow in BLTP. It’s a fools hope to expect anything different than what you’ve got. They certainly haven’t given us any signals that it will change.

Love it or leave it, basically…

Jadjuka.6521:

Wayne Catterton.7846:

I understand that it’s easy to get upset when there is a problem, however I’m sure that there are people working to resolve it. We have to stop and think that they are not doing it intentionally, it’s just that stuff happens, and we need to learn to be patient, and to provide them with as much information as possible in order to fix the issue. We are lucky to have a Mac client, being that the majority of gamers are on Windows or Xbox or PS4. Luckily ArenaNet chose to support Mac rather than a console. I know that the Mac client is through transgaming (cider) and is a wrapper around the windows client, it’s not exactly the best, but it has been working for most and allows us Mac users to play a GW2 (the most excellent game out). However, we also have to consider that we don’t know what’s going on behind the scenes…perhaps the cider client was just to allow us Mac users to play right away, and they may have people coding a proper Mac version. We just don’t know as of yet. It’s also critical to be aware that every company has it’s issues, including Blizzard, they have their fair share of issue, not to mention their “cookie cutter” games that draw people in, but don’t exactly have good gameplay or content within them. Blizzard has grown beyond it’s own scope and their quality has really come down to a point of awful.

Just be patient, provide any information that’s requested, and I’m sure we’ll have a fix at some point. And who knows what the future will bring.

My bro was explaining this to me earlier and suggested that maybe this is that tipping point where they have to break down and make a full client. I’d rather be patient than break down and get bootcamp.

I’m not sure why ArenaNet would keep such information “behind the scenes” if they were indeed working on a fully native Mac client. That personally would give me hope. Without any information, it’s kind of hope-less.

I’d like the producers to have a frank conversation with us. If the answer is they don’t see a full Mac client as a worthwhile business investment — that’s fine, I would appreciate that answer (if that’s the answer). Then I’ll stop wasting my time playing on my Macs.

My feedback to them would be: you can make a generic OpenGL engine that runs natively on both Mac and Linux, and possibly Windows, and thus also exploiting other targets like handhelds, PS4 and Steam Machines easier. It might be the future of the company if there’s the will to do it. Less a technical challenge, than it is institutional.

It’s an excellent game, and I’d like to continue playing it on my platform of choice, just not one that implies I’m always going to be stuck with a Wine client.

Also having the gem issue, the machine I’m playing with currently:

System Version: OS X 10.9 (13A603)
Kernel Version: Darwin 13.0.0
Model Name: MacBook Pro
Model Identifier: MacBookPro8,2
Processor Name: Intel Core i7
Processor Speed: 2.3 GHz
Number of Processors: 1
Total Number of Cores: 4
L2 Cache (per Core): 256 KB
L3 Cache: 8 MB
Memory: 16 GB
AMD Radeon HD 6750M:
Chipset Model: AMD Radeon HD 6750M

I feel this client will be in perpetual beta, both in name and in practice, as long as it’s wine-based instead of a fully native client. While I appreciate the desire to court Mac users, I’ve had too many negative experiences with wine-based ports of games; it’s half-hearted support. As you would expect when you try to take Windows code and make it work on non-Windows targets.

I guess we should be glad it works as well as it does. But having said all that, I hesitate to put any money into GW2 because doing so is almost a vote saying I like this client. I don’t. I want a native client, like what Blizzard provides to its customers.

Ironically, the client won’t let me buy gems even if I wanted to now.