Guild Wars 2

Mental Paradox,
Not sure why you were called that, though I would say most people use that term do not understanding what the actual historical beliefs & ideology behind it were. Most of the posts I have read of yours seem fine to me, though I too consider myself pro-Human so I am probably biased in favor to what you say. A lot of the treaty provisions appear pro-Charr at first glance, but are designed to pro-Human long-term (like controlling Inner Sea trade by playing the Legion biases off each other & separating Kryta & New Ascalon so New Ascalon will devote it’s full resources toward her own growth). I am trying to give New Ascalon breathing space, so it can rebuild it’s strength. Most of the areas I choose appeared to be unclaimed by the major races. Though, Draxynnic points out that assumption may be wrong.

I 100% agree with your Jennah comment, and think I mentioned something similar previously. To be honest the Humans have really been cursed with a series of weak leaders since the Searing. So, by statistical odds, they should get a good one in the next generation or two. However, it does appear the game developers have a thing for the Charr Lore wise, even though they are the less played race and frankly their transformation to “acceptability” strains the belief of reality. In the same breadth they also appear to get a sick pleasure by artificially keeping the Humans down. Almost 2 Centuries of weak and/or unknown (basically everyone after Salma; who despite being in a Golden Age could not re-take any former lands) rulers in Kryta that is not even statistically possible.

Draxynnic,
France and Spain technically were never united during the Napoleonic era. They were allied nations at Trafalgar, just as Spain was allied to France under the Bourbons. Napoleon did attempt to unite them by force, but he never completely took over all of Spain or her possessions. Versailles did not want a Greater Germany by popular accumulation. It was also not the treaty that failed, but political leadership of France and the UK. All treaties are pieces of paper that provide you “justification” for your actions. They cannot stop anything, if there is no “Will” behind them. So, I agree that a treaty would not prevent New Ascalon & Kryta for unifying. It does however, give the Charr a “Just Reason” to declare war on the Humans.

Actually, I feel holding Ebonhawke as a hostage would breed more resentment for Humanity than letting her go as a separate country. My though process is the “status quo” is basically, if Kryta declares war or even kittenes off the Charr they invade/attempt to slaughter Ebonhawke. In addition, Ebonhawke will eventually break from Kryta. It is too far away, and frankly if the armistice becomes permanent (the resource requirements drop dramatically. In the end you probably will get a situation where Ebonhawke is run as a colony that Kryta exploits for resources. Which will lead to an Ebonhawke revolt.

This leads my next point, which alas I should of made in earlier posts (I am sorry). From the Charr’s perspective separating Kryta and New Ascalon gives them the potential to turn New Ascalon or Kryta into a real ally. I think someone previously mentioned about using the Legion ally model (which with a large Charr minority population it becomes possible). New Ascalon is regionally linked to the Charr, plus with the new trade connections that can develop between the Legions and New Ascalon. It potentially could become like a sister nation or “Little Legion.” However, it could also swing hard the other way, which means New Ascalon would resent her Charr minority and the “limitations” the Charr put on them. In that case the Charr can play off Kryta (who is far away and not directly threatened by the Charr now). The End state is New Ascalon gives the Charr more options than the “Status Quo.”

In regards to the Plains of Doric, really was just trying to come up with a name. I mentioned it previously, but I think Azerbaijan would be a good parallel of the type of lands New Ascalon would have. So, you are looking at rough mountain pasture lands. So, some farming but mostly goat and sheep herds would work, and it could be traded to the Charr. It would also be great for horses if they existed. So, yes it is not a paradise, but it does give the Humans more lands. If they are willing to fight the Ogres and Harpies for it.

Wow, I thought the small size was based on the game engine, and we are supposed to view this as a representation. I was originally viewing the area we see on the Game map to equal to Europe in size (with the whole continent of Tyria being roughly Eur-Asia sized). What you are saying it is more like the game map as a whole might be the size of France or Germany. You know I am not sure how the Pact has what it has. It just would not work as the Industrial base is too small. I feel I am being generous in saying they are 17th Century (instead of a Middle Ages time period) society with magic & different firearm technology (that has such low penetration that armor is still viable). Oh, well the “Rule of Cool” obviously supersedes everything.

The Spanish Netherlands and the Netherlands had about 1.5 million each, so Kryta would be 3 Million with maybe 500,000 additional refugees descendants. Divinity’s Reach might be north of 200,000 as Amsterdam was during the 17th century. Florence might be a better example for Lions Arch then so you are looking at 70,000 pre-attack tops.

I think your new estimates of 1 Million Asura (including ex-pats) and probably similar number of Sylvari (also including expats). 750,000 Norns sounds right too.

In regards to Charr, when the Qing crushed the Oirats (Western Mongols) there was about 1 Million before they were slaughtered. So, saying there is a 1 Million Charr is probably safe. As we are talking about the Mongol population during the 17th Century in the less hospital portion of Mongolia.

Moscow had about 200,000 people and was a military frontier city. That is what I was basing Ebonhawke on. Considering this smaller size and land mass I am thinking 15th Century Constantinople is a good example (as it was constantly under siege by the Turks). So, basically 35,000 to 50,000 (most likely on the smaller end).

Again thanks everyone for your continued feedback!

Tobias Trueflight,
Your Elona liberation plan is brilliant! I think that would work, there are undoubtedly a few Noble families and High ranking Seraph Officers of Elona descent in Kryta. So, getting together a council or task force to put this together should be easy. Not to mention no one would even question if Kryta were assembling a larger force and logistics tail than what was necessary. People would just assume the Humans were over-planning the whole thing.

In regards to New Ascalon I agree, this depends a lot on the good will of the Charr. The within 10 years comment was to the fact is 10 years later New Ascalon would have a larger population base, and would be able to serve as a true launching point for an expedition instead of just a pass through.

In regards to putting the Charr in a bind, I was working off the belief that the Ghosts would disappear in only the area within New Ascalon. Not within Ascalon as a whole. Basically, any lands New Ascalon controlled would become Ghost free, while the Charr are stuck with them.

As I stated in the opening posts the whole idea of New Ascalon to be founded upon a final peace treaty with the Charr, not to be carved out without the Charr’s support or permission.

Again thanks for the continued interest and comments.

Tobias Trueflight,

Though, I agree liberating Elona is a Noble endeavor, but the logistics issue and unified political will would be tough to muster for such an under-taking at this time. In regards to logistics you either cross a desert heading south from Ebonhawke (which you had to gate the troops & supplies too in the first place), and/or send a fleet past Orr (which though recently liberated still contains hostile forces). On the political will front, it really is not in the best interests of anyone other than the Humans to re-establish contact. It would be adding an unknown political entity to the mix, which no one will no where they stand or how to interact with them. In addition, any forces designated to this fight would be forces that get removed from some other fight like with the Centaurs or the Dragons. However, setting up New Ascalon would make such endeavor easier in 10 years time as now you have a whole mostly Human country bordering up to the Desert.

I feel I that my of name chose of the South Ascalon province is leading to mis-understanding here. If you look at the 2nd map I posted from That Shaman where it overlays GW1 regions on the GW2 game map. It shows that other than a fishing village and King’s Watch there was almost no settlement in that area. Plus all of the settlement is in the extreme northern part of the province. My choice of names is solely symbolic (which is useful that King’s watch is there). Fields of Ruin & Ebonhawke were settled by Ascalonians, but they were always effectively outside of the Kingdom. The whole point of the South Ascalon province is to make a lineage connection (even though probably less than 20% of the province was actually part of Ascalon) between Ascalon and New Ascalon. This is to help convince hard-liners & Separatists to come back into the fold. In regards to the Foefire it is possible that South Ascalon was far enough away that they were not affected and/or if they were only the northern part would have Ghosts. It also would be interesting to see if the Ghosts disappear after the first King of New Ascalon is crowned at King’s Watch. The later part would put the Charr in a bind a bit.

BrotherBelial and Aaron Ansari,
I do not feel all of the population would leave the Ascalon settlement, but as a mostly Ascalon ancestry settlement it would lose a large portion of it’s population. Let me throw out some numbers to what I am thinking:

Kryta I am going to say is roughly 17th Century France with an additional refugee population added in so, lets say 23-24 Million. Divinity’s Reach I think is probably bigger than Paris (which was a very large city to start with), due to the refugees so I am thinking maybe Constantinople/Istanbul size. Therefore, we are looking at 600,000 to 700,000.

For Ebonhawke (pre-treaty) as a military frontier area, it would be a lot more Urban than normal Human settlement in the Early Modern Era. So, I am thinking it would be 150,000 to 200,000 with a total Urban and Rural settlement population of 500,000 or so.

I am guessing that 1.5 to 2 million people (would be less than 10% of Kryta no matter what) would emigrate to Ebonhawke & New Ascalon post treaty. This would be over a 5-10 year period not all at once. They might pick up 50,000-300,00 in Separatists and their families (there has to be hidden Human settlements in the Charr lands to support some of those camps so far from Human controlled lands). Plus up to 500,000 non-Humans. This large number is based on Deathblade Watch being incorporated into the new Kingdom, if that is not true then probably less than half that number.

Here are my thoughts on other nation populations:
Lion’s Arch 2-2.5 million total with 180,000 in the City pre-attack by Scarlet (basically similar to the Venice and her colonies). NOTE: Lion’s Arch as a nation is probably less than 60% Human.

Asura (basing them off of Italy), say 13 million total with 200,000 to 300,000 in Rata Sum. They also have a large non-resident population so, there might be up to 20 million in total.

Norn (If I based it off of all Scandinavian regions we are talking 2.5-3 million only) I am going to say 4-12 million as the Shiverpeaks is a very long Mountain chain and frankly I have no good Human/Earth example to use.

Sylvari, like the Norn there are really no good Human/Earth examples. Maybe 15+ million with 100,000 to 200,000 in the Grove.

The Charr (To me they are similar to a Horde type nation, so total population figures are misleading as they have a larger percentage of the adult population in the Military then most other countries. Like 30% to 40%) I am going to go with 35 million of all four Legions combined, similar to the Ottoman Empire at it’s height. Though, that gives them a military of up to 14 million, which the other nations are thankful are not united under a single leader.

Thank you all for your comments!

Konig Des Todes,
Let me start off with the borders I came up with were based on the assumption that there was no Charr settlement in South Ascalon and all areas East of Fields for Ruin were unclaimed by a major nation. Obviously if the facts on the ground were different than those borders would not be realistic. If that is true your suggestion of using the Brand as the Western border would be the best solution. Though, losing King’s Watch would by another symbolic blow.

In regards to the Blood Legion homelands, I am working under the assumption they are North not East even though that is where the Legions of Charr put them. The wiki based on my understanding says they are now North: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Blood_Legion_Homelands

In regards to the New Rin Valley province. I am assuming the Geography would be similar to the Caucasus Mountains (say Azerbaijan).

Draxynnic,
As in the above response, I am working on the assumption there was no real Charr settlement in South Ascalon. I am basing it on two points as the area is not in game so we do not know. The first point is the area was very rural under Ascalon other than a fishing village and King’s Watch there were no other major settlements that would draw the Charr’s attention. The other point is if you look at the Charr settlement pattern, other than the Ascalon lands the Charr did not permanently stay in any other lands between Orr and Ascalon. Yes, there is a noticeable Charr presence in the Lion Arch colonies, but that is more likely do to the Cosmopolitan nature of the nation. If the Charr were still in Sparkly Fen or even parts of Mount Maelstrom than I would feel less confident in assuming South Ascalon is probably unclaimed by the Charr. As with the above it the facts on the ground are different then your suggestion of using the Brand does work the best. Though, losing King’s Watch would by another symbolic blow.

In regards to the political separation, I put it in there as it is a very pro-Charr item. In the 18th Century all of Europe fought multiple wars to keep France and Spain from joining crowns. Putting all the Humans under one leader is not in the Charr’s best long-term interests. If the Dragon’s are defeated the Human Gods might return. The Cantha might show up with an army full of Xenophobic Humans, after the Sea Dragon is defeated (Especially if they did the defeating). Plus, Jenna frankly is a weak ruler, she is good at diplomacy, but not much else. As even in Kryta she has multiple Noble conspiracies running against her. One of her descendants might be another Doric. To me if Bangar were negotiating the treaty he would not care if the Humans stayed united. Malic or Smodur, though would look at all possible long-term scenario’s and decide it is too risky to keep the Humans united.

In regards to the your parts a-d, it sounds like we are thinking roughly the same end goal. Though, with different paths on trying to get there. I feel the political separation is necessary to bring New Ascalon & Ebonhawke into the fold with the Legions. As it uses geography (Kryta is that nation over the Shiverpeaks) and the inevitable cross-trade patterns (I am thinking the Inner Sea would turn into a major trading water superhighway in a century or so) to slowly bridge the Species and Cultural divide.

Credit to That_Shaman at http://thatshaman.blogspot.com/ for his Game Map showing GW1 & GW2 regions.

The Green lines are some of the new Regions I was thinking would be added to support this treaty. In the case of Blazeridge Coast there would be another area to the East of it being the Peninsula that extends into the Inner Sea. I choose the Valley of New Rin, as I assumed New Rin would be the name of the town (eventually city) on the Inner Sea coast the Humans would form to Trade between each of the Charr Legions.

ANALYSIS: Is this treaty fare, no it is not. Though, the Charr can claim that the Humans are getting more than they deserve. Where the Humans can claim they are being dictated too by the Charr. However, both sides do see enough benefits to offset any issues.

The Humans get recognized borders (which are actually larger than they currently control), end of hostility (so resources can flow elsewhere), they Keep Regents Valley & the symbolically important King’s Watch, and lastly the trade & potential joint colonies would be a huge long-term boon. Also, the Humans will have effects elsewhere Rurikton will see a large loss of population immigrating to New Ascalon/Ebonhawke lands. This will lower housing prices in Divinities Reach, which is over-crowded anyway so this is a big positive (especially for the lower-classes). The Ascalon Settlement too will suffer population losses, which short-term is a negative for Kryta. However, considering how many Human’s migrate to her even those lands will be filled with new settlers (who probably will change the Town’s name).

The Charr get the Humans renouncing claims to Ascalon (they will in writing get the Human’s to admit they lost to the Charr), they force Ebonhawke & Kryta to be separate entities (Jenna might be a peacenik, but her descendants might not), they force the Humans to help them solve their Separatist problems (more below on this), the increased trade, and potential future joint colonies we be an economic boon.

Separatists: If anyone thinks they are going away with this treaty. I know a bridge I can sell you. However, they all will be effected differently. The Separatists groups south of the Broken Wall mostly likely pull many of their recruits from areas that now fall under Human control. Those groups (mostly in Plains of Ashford & Southern Blazeridge Steppes) are going to mostly re-turn to Ebonhawke and re-integrate. This will be another manpower source for New Ascalon/Ebonhawke. The exception being the one’s the Charr name, and any die-hard fanatics. However, the Separatists found around and above the Broken Wall most likely draw their manpower from hidden Human settlements that still exist in the now Charr controlled regions. So, most of them will not give up as their Home is outside of Human controlled lands. They will be reinforced by the previously mentioned named Separatists & die-hard fanatics.

Renegades & Gold/Flame Legion: To be honest both these groups will out-right grow in strength. The first group by not accepting the Treaty & the Second group by pointing out how weak the current Charr leadership is in accepting less than full submission. In fact many of the area’s below the Broken Wall the above Human Separatists leave will immediately fall under the control of these two. The treaty is roughly pro-Charr, but not nearly as repressive as many Charr would like. In fact, in many ways the Humans actually have a better deal long-term than the Charr do, especially if they leverage the three legions natural dislike of each other into controlling trade of the Inner Sea. Lastly, the treaty benefits the Iron Legion a lot more than Ash or Blood. This might grow into a bigger problem long-term as the Iron has gotten it far too good since Ascalon fell. They may have Khan-Ur, but we are talking about a species that rejects the worship of God’s. So the symbolize advantage of having Khan-Ur is a lot less than it was in the early day’s.

There recently was a thread about Human’s re-taking Ascalon & a counter-thread about the Charr taking Kryta. I would like to propose a different direction for Expansion: East.

Credit to That_Shaman at http://thatshaman.blogspot.com/ for his map of Tyria

I have taken a few liberties with That_Shaman’s map and made “guesses” to the Homelands of Ash being east of Blood. Also, the Ogre & Harpy Mountains and Centaurs (in a Great Steppe) are guesses to on the likely geography of those regions and inhabitants. The Great Northern Forest is a guess too.

Here is roughly what I feel the final treaty between the Charr and the Humans (I believe the currently is only an Armistice?) should be:

The Charr Legions and Human nations here undersigned (Blood, Ash, Iron, Kryta, & Ebonhawke) recognize an end of hostilities and agree to the following borders of Ebonhawke from the Shiverpeak Mountains West to the Inner Sea following the natural geographic boundaries. From the Regent Valley south to the Crystal Desert following the natural geographic boundaries. With the exception of the lands around Lake Tenaebron and Varim’s Run and the Exclave of Deathblade Watch and the surrounding region. In addition, the Secluded Glen where Killeen is buried will be a Neutral site claimed by neither Human nor Charr.

Ebonhawke and Kryta will renounce for all time any claims on lands of former Ascalon not listed above.

Ebonhawke and Kryta must be two separate political entities. They are forbidden from merging crowns (if a ruler comes from the same family must renounce claims to the other state), sharing rulers, be in a Feudatory/Vassal relationship, or in any other form share political control between the two entities.

Ebonhawke and Krtya must actively engage Human seperatists to end their fighting and for those not sought by the Charr, be re-integrated into Human society. The Charr Legions will jointly provide a list of wanted criminals. Said list will not exceed 500 names.

The Charr Legions will allow Ebonhawke & Kryta to trade, with each of three Legions without any prohibitive Tariffs.

The Charr Legions will consider joint commercial and military activities (read colonies) between themselves and Ebonhawke throughout the Inner Sea region.

While I agree with the idea that fighting the Charr in a near hopeless situation for decades would greatly affect the King’s personality. Then add in the death of his son, and the final siege could cause him to snap.

However, if you look at the real world example of a very similar situation. We have Constantine the XI and the fall of Constantinople to the Turks where he did not act much different, except he did not have a magical sword. He did not order any mass evacuations, and in fact actively persecuted deserters. Many of Constantine XI’s own advisors tried to get him to leave the city and rebuild his power in Morea (which was actually part of the Empire still). Constantine refused them and stayed to help lead the defense of his city. Even after the Turks broke into the city Constantine lead his soldiers on one more charge to theirs and his death.