Guild Wars 2

Paid tournaments are already dead enough without removing one of the sources of tickets. No one is going to spend actual money to buy tournament tickets.

I understand the complaint that premades stomp PUGs in free tournaments, and it’s valid. I know my team does frees when practicing new builds, and I feel bad for the PUGs we get matched against. Removing tickets from the rewards would not solve this, it would only further kill paid tournaments. A real solution would be to lower the ticket cost of paid tournaments. If it’s easier to get tickets, and to keep tickets, premades would be more likely to stay in paid tournaments.

Paracidic.5821:

sami.3801:

5 minutes a go. Two dancing daggers 9.8K. I have 3079 toughness. I hope that was just a coincidence…

3079 toughness? Tell me your secret. My bunker ele can get absolutes of about 25-2600. Do you have like 4 health or something?

Pretty sure he meant armor. 3079 toughness isn’t possible, afaik.

BobF.3509:

Does the OP even have like 10 tpvp wins?

Guess what sparky, veterans of 5v5 do all the things you mention in your post. Have you tried any other spec besides the couple of fotm ele builds? Well go on, try one, and you’ll see why people who have much greater pvp experience than you are getting frustrated, and you’ll understand what they mean when they say GW2 lacks diversity. I dare you to experiment with a non-bunker ele spec, and watch how utterly useless you are in both 8v8 and 5v5. You’ll put out laughable burst, while folding like paper to shatter mes or 3 button wonder thief/war. Try your diverse ele build in tpvp, and be a waste of a party slot while trying to take points from an unkillable bunker or get easily ganked by a roaming dps. You don’t need to refute, in my 300+ tpvp games (still not a lot of games compared to some of the hardcore still around playing paid) i’ve seen the “diversity” of GW2, and watched non-cookie cutter builds get destroyed. Tried a couple myself, and got destroyed.

So this is what was promised? Everyone bunker or burst, every team comp nearly identical in 5v5, and every pubstomp build the same in 8v8? I just wished the marketing material was as clear, I wouldn’t of bothered spending the 60 bones.

There are some classes that are only used one way, but you can’t count elementalist among them. Besides the various bunker builds, you occasionally see stuff like double arcane glass cannons, and d/d aura share specs, which work very well. My tournament team hasn’t played for a while, but last I saw, [PTC] was using a glass cannon d/d aura share ele, and they’re one of the best NA teams. As for team builds, there are plenty of things that work. Most individual builds can be separated into bunker/burst/support, but there are lots of teams and strategies you can use. Just have some creativity, and practice a bit. If you try something new, you won’t immediately be great at it.

Trying to “pull rank” in this conversation is silly and childish, but since you seem to care: I’m at around 400 tPvP wins and 10 QP, and I disagree with you. You’re entitled to your opinion, but before you act arrogant, make sure that you’re not wrong.

Infectious.4836:

Mesmers portal and theives broken burst say hi.

Granted theif isn’t needed, you are running at a disadvantage not running one.

It entirely depends on the strategy you’re using. Some strategies absolutely need those classes, but not all do.

Infectious.4836:

You missed the part about taking 1 guardians 1 mesmer 1 theif being needed to have a chance of winning.

Probably because that isn’t true. Guardian is the only class of those which is really necessary. Mesmer and Thief are very strong classes, but you don’t need them. People just cry about them because they lose to cookie cutter builds, and assume that the problem is with the classes, not with their tactics and skills.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Pvp_rewards

Here is a list of rewards from each rank. It’s mostly random, but you can use the Mystic Forge to craft exact items, provided you have the materials.

Gladiator armor is available to players rank 30 and up. No player in the game currently has any cultural armor from PvP, so you probably won’t see those for a very long time.

I’d advise taking a look through the free tournament gear, and seeing if you like any of it. It’s relatively easy to acquire, and available to all ranks. If you have tickets, you can also get some paid tournament gear, as all teams receive at least some reward, win or lose. However, it will likely be difficult to get the pieces you want without a solid tournament team.

Larynx.2453:

Dejh.5971:

BigTeeHunter.4913:

Also, you’ve said that theif and mesmer can avoid their first stomp, which is untrue. The only class in the game that can 100% avoid the initial stomp from any class, is elementalist.

The situations where a thief or mesmer are unable to avoid a first stomp are very rare. Technically, their stomp avoiding abilities are worse than that of elementalists, but it’s not unreasonable to put them on the same tier when considering practical use.

Thieves: Teleport
Mesmer: Stagger

Elementalists, even if you get a perfect stagger, will still not be down by the time it finishes. Staggering can be done by all professions. Teleports, off the top of my head, are available to at least the four most played professions in tPvP. Please, tell me more about how rare these situations are.

On another note I don’t think was covered, Elementalists have the only downed state that bother counters stability and contributes to capping the point with 100% reliability. That is where the true imbalance lies. If their form didn’t contribute to the point like stealth or even vengeance does, then Elementalists would have at most a minor annoyance rather than have a potentially game changing impact.

No, the counter to mesmer downed state is stealth. If there are NO available targets, the mesmer is unable to stealth. Essentially the only time this will occur is when fighting a solo thief. Trying to time your stomp until they leave stealth is very unreliable, as you don’t know where they will be.

To stomp a thief on your first try, you need a teleport that brings you to the target, and can be used without interrupting an action. Only thief can do this without the use of a utility slot, and there is a good chance that their steal will not be ready for a stomp, as the majority use it in the spike. Guardian can do it easily, but at the cost of a utility slot. Unless the guardian is building for meditations, it’s usually not used. You’re far more likely to see 2 shouts+<consecration/spirit weapon/third shout>.

Mesmer and elementalist are more likely to have a teleport equipped and ready to use. However, these are ground targeted. If the thief waits until the last moment before teleporting away (as they should), it’s often difficult to aim the skills in time. It can be done, but takes either a good prediction, or very fast reflexes.

So yes, I would say that it’s rare to see a thief or mesmer stomped on the first try.

You’re absolutely right that vapor form should not contribute to point captures, though. Other invulnerabilities (besides runes of Svanir) don’t, so I would assume that property to be a bug.

BigTeeHunter.4913:

Also, you’ve said that theif and mesmer can avoid their first stomp, which is untrue. The only class in the game that can 100% avoid the initial stomp from any class, is elementalist.

The situations where a thief or mesmer are unable to avoid a first stomp are very rare. Technically, their stomp avoiding abilities are worse than that of elementalists, but it’s not unreasonable to put them on the same tier when considering practical use.

There is an occasional bug where the daggers will bounce off the air above capture points, allowing it to hit multiple times, even on single targets. Besides that, it’s just what everyone has said: DD rips through groups of exactly 2. This also makes it fairly deadly against rangers, and anyone using Ogre runes, as your pet or rock dog is an easy bounce target.

Guild: Nefarious Mushroom Plan [gasp]

Thunderbeard.4527: Autumns Equinox, Engineer
Pie Formation.8196: Miyazawa Kengo, Guardian
Dejh.5971: Dejh, Warrior
Reikou.7068: Reikou, Thief/Mesmer/Guardian
Baron Von Klauson.4970: Von Klauson, Elementalist

Oh, what happened to your old team? You guys were great. I know I learned a lot about Engineer from watching you play.

Good luck on your search-hope you can find another solid team.

Plague.5329:

I personally don’t think the game is going to recover, because it’s obvious that the minds behind making GW1 the best MMO PvP ever made are now gone, and people who don’t understand these problems (or that they are the source of the problems) are now in charge.

This is what makes me sad. It really is a fun game at the core, but it’s just missing so much on the PvP side. PvP in GW1 had great design, but seems to be little more than an afterthought in 2. I want to see the PvP scene succeed, but I’m just about out of optimism.

shaolin.9716:

People don’t have to be elite players to voice their opinions on the game. If anything, casual opinion is worth a lot more than elite players, because when those casuals leave you’re left with very little (elite) players to play with and certainly can’t make the game into a worthwhile esport. Casuals are the ones who make or break a game’s popularity.

Also, it just feels like OP doesn’t like the fact that the general opinion is that thieves, mesmers, and guardian bunkers are currently overpowered, the 3 professions he chooses to play. In my opinion, playing these FOTM removes all the credibility of OP who probably can’t be good with anything not currently overpowered and it is his opinion that should be ignored rather than anyone else’s.

Casuals players certainly matter, but that does not automatically mean that their opinions have merit. Sometimes the answer really is that the class they are complaining about is balanced, and only seems strong or weak because they are playing poorly. Trying to balance around popular opinion is a fast way to turn any game uncompetitive.

demonstrative.9176:

8-9pm Eastern; I’m pretty sure we’ve played the least out of any team out there as well.

Just watch the different streams, pretty easy to determine when you see someone in paid on Foefire, and you get a pop.

Once again, I never said the QP list was a ladder or ranking system of any sort. I’m generally speaking to people who are discrediting anyone on the list. AFAIK mostly everyone on that list has played with/against everyone else, and most of the people speaking up and saying QPs are mostly a time issue and says nothing about player skill aren’t featured.

Oh, I think we just had a misunderstanding then. The whole time discussion was started by someone saying that the QP board is not a ladder, and my responses were directed more at that part.

demonstrative.9176:

While somewhat true, this really isn’t a representation of how it is right now. PZ, who have the most QPs on the board lose regularly to various teams; and vice versa. There’s also at least two queues going at a time so there’s a good chance the two top teams won’t play each other. Every competitive team has most likely played against every other competitive team in all three maps at this point.

Like I said, I agree time has a part to play…but to say QPs are in majority part due to teams being able to play more is, in my opinion, inaccurate. Coming from experience, everyone with the higher number of QPs belongs to a team and have been competitive in the games. Yes QPs are inflated due to several reasons, but the people on the list do deserve to be on there in a large capacity.

I think you missed the last part.

>As it is, very few teams play paid tournaments. This allows QPs to give a fairly close approximation of a ladder. However, this shouldn’t be mistaken for a real ranking system, as it really is not.

Right now, the small number of teams gives a pretty close approximation. Certainly, all teams with significant amounts of QPs are skilled. However, it’s still just a leaderboard, not a ladder. Any rank system where you can’t go down in rank will favor those who play more.

Also, two tournament queues? When do you play? I generally only see one paid tournament going during our team’s normal playtimes (starting roughly 8-9 pm eastern time). Two is a busy day. From what I’ve heard, Asian times typically have no paid tournaments going.

Dardamaniac.1295:

I was pretty sure that there would be a lot of Mesmers,Thiefs,Warriors and Guardians since other proffesion are not pvpable..
Thats kinda of balance if you think it.Out of 8 prof you can pvp with the 4 of them

Except that’s not true at all. Ranger is the only class that’s significantly underpowered right now, and I’ve still seen some teams use it well. Necro, Engi and Ele are all regularly used.

demonstrative.9176:

Hopeless.8195:

This is not a ‘ladder’ this is just showing us which teams invested enough time to ‘farm’ QP.

Real ladders would need a rating system.

Just curious, why do you think it’s simply a matter of investing time?

It’s not just time, but time is a large part of it. Examples as follow:

Example 1: Two teams are exactly equal in skill. Also, if they fight each other, the outcome is exactly 50/50. However, team A plays twice as much as team B. Team A has twice as many qualifier points, because they played more. If the rankings were based on skill, not time, A and B would be roughly equal in rank.

Example 2: Team A is the top team in the world. Team B is the second best. Team B will always, without fail, beat any team that is not A, but will always, without fail, lose to A. If A and B always end up playing at the same times, B won’t even rank on the leaderboard. A team that plays against worse teams can rank higher than a better team that happens to get matched against the best ones.

As it is, very few teams play paid tournaments. This allows QPs to give a fairly close approximation of a ladder. However, this shouldn’t be mistaken for a real ranking system, as it really is not.

Solori.6025:

I would actually compromise with being able to see peoples win/loss ratio in both tournament and structured pvp.

Cutting out the majority of people to avoid seeing QQ threads is elitist and downright ignorant.

The majority of people have nothing positive to contribute to a discussion about PvP. Many of them actively make the forum worse-it’s difficult to have an actual discussion about builds and balance when half of the posts will be “Waaahhh, I died to a <thief/mesmer/whatever>, it needs to be nerfed.” When so many of the complaints can be legitimately answered by either “It’s imbalanced because you’re playing 8v8 on 5v5 maps” or “It only seems overpowered/underpowered because you are bad,” good discussion will be drowned out.

Showing games won/lost would certainly be a step in the right direction, but only for tPvP. Because of autobalance, and leaving not counting against you, quick join win/loss is beyond worthless. It’s possible that leaving a tournament match wouldn’t count against you, but I don’t know for sure, as players pathetic enough to leave tournament matches are rare. Also, paid and free tournaments would ideally be separated, as paid are far more competitive.

Remember, just because something is elitist, doesn’t mean that it’s wrong. If there is a desire to improve discussion quality on the forums, some change will be needed. And whatever change that is would not be favorable to worse players.

Alright, let’s go through everything. First of all, I don’t think that a third weapon slot would work. That would mean that warriors need a different inventory screen, and removes choice from builds. Instead of having to pick between your shield set and rifle set for a build, you’d just bring everything. Sure, it would be powerful, but not very interesting. It would be a decent buff, but is the wrong way to go for making warrior more interesting. Not to mention, warriors are already a strong enough class that making any new change a straight buff risks making them overpowered.

Next: stances could be interesting, depending on how they’re implemented, but burst skills need to stay. Hammer, mace, longbow, and axe rely heavily on their burst skill, and would need to be entirely redesigned without them. The only weapon which wouldn’t be significantly changed without the burst skill is greatsword. Attunement style stances would probably be troublesome to balance, as warrior already has huge weapon variety. Probably the best way to balance stances would be making them stat/buff based, and having them use adrenaline to maintain. Which brings me to my next point.

The biggest problem with the warrior class skills is that the adrenaline mechanic isn’t terribly interesting. The only thinking involved is if you want to use your burst skill now, or after charging it more. This is because there’s only one thing to spend adrenaline on. The easiest way to fix this would be adding more burst skills. The way I see it, there are two ways this could be done.

1) Second burst skill. If dual wielding, base it on your offhand weapon. This gives more choice in what to do with your adrenaline, while being relatively simple to balance.

2) More burst skills, but with different costs. For example: F1 stays the same-uses all adrenaline, and is stronger the more you have. F2+ use adrenaline, but a fixed amount, rather than all of it. This could mean that you can use one of them for only 1 bar, or that you can’t use a different one without a full 3 bars. Either way, it would make adrenaline more of a resource, and less of a charge bar. Possibly tie one of the skills to adrenaline generation.

More burst skills would fill the “Master of Weapons” idea, by allowing warriors to do more with each weapon set, while not significantly changing the mechanics of the class.