Showing Posts For Dimes.7281:
After experimenting with a number of different kits and builds I can see why the HGH condition build is the most popular choice for TPvP, but my question is, is it the ONLY feasible choice for competitive team-based PvP?
If you fellow Engineers actively participate in TPvP in anything except an HGH Condition build, or even if you are currently playing an HGH Condition build only because you feel every other build you’ve tried falls short, I would like your feedback.
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our kit swapping is already inherently better than weapon swapping because it is instant. we carry up to 4 weapons without inventory space. this costs us in terms of a utility slot, and is (marginally, I agree) compensated by the tool belt.
we are in no way suffering from lack of options during combat.
That assumes all kit skills are on par with weapon skills which is very obviously not the case.
Maybe that’s because the designer’s intent was to center our class around versatility and not efficiency.
The two are not mutually exclusive, in fact I would say almost dependent on one another. If you are versatile, you are efficient in the way you engage combat.
Not necessarily. Versatility is how well one can adapt to a number of different scenarios, efficiency is the amount of energy that needs to be exerted in order to accomplish a certain task. Thus, the Engineer is a very versatile class because we have weapon kits for many different scenarios, but not a very efficient one since we have to frequently swap between them to use select abilities for each different scenario.
The main balancing issue I see with our utility skills is that our weapon kits, elixirs, and to some degree turrets, are substantially better than our gadgets to the point where there is little reason to no reason to slot a gadget skill over a weapon kit, elixir, or turret. Maybe if they decreased the CD timers of our gadget’s it would make up for the diversity we lose.
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The problem wasn’t killing the destroyers as I take them down extremely fast, its the condition dmg they do compared to the amount of healing elixir H provides. And yes I know about using the trait so that your elixirs remove conditions, that isn’t the point I am trying to make. And even though Elixir H gives a random boon (which lets face it, doesn’t even compare to some of the other high healing skills the other classes get when using a healing skill). For example elementalists have basically the same ability (not as random as ours) that gives them a boon based on what attunement they are in but has a bigger heal potential behind it. I understand there are options around the condition but should a heal really barely move your health where it is almost worthless to use when you are very low on health and you hope to just survive the condition. I don’t use the condition removal trait as since I use FT as my main weapon I have the increased 15% FT/EG dmg since it improves the damage my FT does by a large margin. I’d just like to see a heal skill actually have some effect on my HP rather than slightly move it up compared to other classes that seem to at least 1 big burst healing skill.
I hear what you’re saying man. I sometimes feel like Elixir H doesn’t heal didley squat, but I’ve found other ways to work with it and I really don’t feel like it’s a top priority.
our kit swapping is already inherently better than weapon swapping because it is instant. we carry up to 4 weapons without inventory space. this costs us in terms of a utility slot, and is (marginally, I agree) compensated by the tool belt.
we are in no way suffering from lack of options during combat.
That assumes all kit skills are on par with weapon skills which is very obviously not the case.
Maybe that’s because the designer’s intent was to center our class around versatility and not efficiency.
There are many good Engineer builds. I have never played HGH Grenadier and I never intend to. Carpal Tunnel Syndrome is not my idea of fun.
No, I mean Super Elixir Removes conditions WITHOUT having to shoot through it.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Super_Elixir
And Seras, the trait that reduces the cooldowns on the FG and EG doesn’t affect Super Elixir. It’s 20 second CD remains the same.
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Yes, Destroyer’s burn damage hurt =(. I suggest removing the condition rather than trying to heal through it with Elixir H. Elixir H doesn’t heal for as much as our other healing abilities because it also gives you a random boon. It also might be helpful to fight destroyers with something other than a flamethrower because they are immune to burning damage.
Engineer Combo Wiki:
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Table_of_engineer_combo_skills
The best Engy condition remover is our Elixir C ability which turns all conditions to boons every 45 seconds, and 1 Condition to a Boon from Throw Elixir C as an AOE. Also our Elixir Gun has a Light Field that heals and removes conditions.
The 700 hp healing difference is certainly not negligible, and it is worth considering depending on your build. However what I am pointing out is that although you gain 700 more hp healing difference by using medpacks, you sacrifice time for the greater heal return. For example, Bandage Self takes 1 second to activate, Swap to Medpack another .5 seconds, and dropping each separate medpack takes a total of 1.5 seconds, and that comes to a total heal time of ~3 seconds spread out over 4 abilities. Healing Turret on the other hand takes .5 seconds to drop and another .5 seconds to cast it’s Water Field regen upon which it can be detonated instantly for a total Heal Time of 1 second. So Healing Turret actually heals you 3 times faster than the Medkit for ~700 less healing.
Also, it’s important to note that the Medpack only heals instantly when you are running forward, and if you are strafing, moving backward, or are immobilized you will not be able to take the Bandages you drop. This means the best way to use the Medkit is when you’re running away in a straight line. The Healing Turret is 3x faster, can be used in any situation, and AOE Heals + Regenerates or Cleanses my allies in battle. Thus why I use the Healing Turret over the Medkit.
If that’s how you want to look at it, I guess.
I did forget to mention Regenerating Mist, which heals for 780 through Regeneration and can similarly be Blast finished once every 60 seconds. I often do Regenerating Mist + Acid Bomb in PvE, personally. Even still, the Healing Turret with all its skills with Blast finishers heals for 23940 health every minute.
The Med Kit with all its skills heals for 29760 every minute. That’s a 5820 health return difference. I’ll gladly take a couple extra sections to drop everything for that. Not to mention the fact that I can additionally drop health packs around nodes/towers/boss rooms before I or my allies even take any damage.
Nothing against the Healing Turret, of course. I use it all the time. To tell you the truth, half the time I use the Med Kit—beyond its healing ability—is for its Swiftness buff. Unless I’m using the Tool Kit, I have no points in Tools. And I don’t think Elixir B on its own really cuts the mustard.
It all comes down to how you’re traited and what you’re doing. In SPvP or TPvP I would never use Medkit, in PvE it certainly becomes more feasible because Mobs are easier to kite than other players. Also, if I’m HGH specced I use Elixir H and Elixir B, and between consume Elixir H, Consume Elixir B, and toss Elixir B, I pretty much have Swiftness on demand anyway and if I have Speedy Kits, it really isn’t even a factor at all. However, if you’re DPS traited for PVE an important thing to consider is that you may get more healing out of the Medpack but you also spend more time healing resulting in less DPS or whatever else you’re doing in the encounter.
Also, anyone can put down Bandages and Elixirs before a boss fight or around a tower to prep before battle, all you have to do is temporarily switch to Medkit and then switch back to the Healing Turret, it’s only when you’re engaged in combat when you can’t switch. In the end though it all just comes down to playing the way that feels most comfortable to you.
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Actually it’s quite easy to proc the healing field on the Healing Turret. Healing Turret shoots out it’s regeneration water field .5 seconds after you put it down, so all you have to do is make a habit of exploding your turret .5 seconds after you put it down so you get 2 instant heals, the initial heal, the AOE heal, and 10 seconds of regeneration.
I have no trouble detonating the Healing Turret or timing Blast finishers with it. I said it was complicated to value how good its healing potential is because its effectiveness depends on how many other people are using Blast finishers too.
The Healing Turret gives 4920 Self-Heal + 1040 Regeneration. Detonating the turret with the Water field active gives an additional 1320. That means, by yourself, you can give yourself a total of 7280 health back every 20 seconds unbuffed.
With the Med Kit, you have Bandage Self which also heals for 4920. Drop Bandages additionally give 1,000 health back per pick-up. That’s 7920 health total every 20 seconds unbuffed—or 10920 every 24.
You might ask about Healing Power, but the gap only widens when included. Both the Healing Turret and Bandage Self are modified x1.0 (100%) of your Healing Power value. The Area Heal from detonating your turret is modified only by x0.2 (20%) of your Healing Power value—Drop Bandage is modified by x0.5, or 50%.
So if you have 1000 Healing Power, your Bandage Self and Healing Turret will heal you for an additional 1000 health. You get an additional 500 for every Drop Bandage, but you’re only going to get another 200 with your Area Heal.
Where the Healing Turret shines is its Cleansing Burst. Totally agree. Love it for Condition heavy content. I don’t think it’s necessary for sPvP though. Elixir C gets the job done just fine for me. And for raw healing, the Med Kit is worth pressing 1-3. You just get more health back.
You may say that the 700 difference is negligible, but every time I use Elixir H or the Healing Turret, I just don’t feel like I’m getting as much health back. Drop Bandages on a 12 second cooldown is huge.
The 700 hp healing difference is certainly not negligible, and it is worth considering depending on your build. However what I am pointing out is that although you gain 700 more hp healing difference by using medpacks, you sacrifice time for the greater heal return. For example, Bandage Self takes 1 second to activate, Swap to Medpack another .5 seconds, and dropping each separate medpack takes a total of 1.5 seconds, and that comes to a total heal time of ~3 seconds spread out over 4 abilities. Healing Turret on the other hand takes .5 seconds to drop and another .5 seconds to cast it’s Water Field regen upon which it can be detonated instantly for a total Heal Time of 1 second. So Healing Turret actually heals you 3 times faster than the Medkit for ~700 less healing.
Also, it’s important to note that the Medpack only heals instantly when you are running forward, and if you are strafing, moving backward, or are immobilized you will not be able to take the Bandages you drop. This means the best way to use the Medkit is when you’re running away in a straight line. The Healing Turret is 3x faster, can be used in any situation, and AOE Heals + Regenerates or Cleanses my allies in battle. Thus why I use the Healing Turret over the Medkit.
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PvE FT Build:
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fcAQJAqalspSVn1SdF17IBoHAuu3V0jH34J/pAbB;ToAg1CqoyxkjIHbOuck5MwYWAThe build above is amazing for PvE where you can put out a lot of damage and control mobs on the front line with pushback, Smoke Vent, and the Flame Turret’s 5 second Smoke Screen field every 30 seconds. It utilizes a might heavy build that you gain from Juggernaut and HGH and capitalizes on the condition effects from Vulnerability, Bleed, and Burn effects the fast hitting FT provides.
For WvW I switch out the Flame Turret for Elixir C for condition removal and it works pretty good. However, in SPvP I found that this build lacked the defensive stats and utilities to sustain itself in coordinated long duration skirmishes, and you might as well be a sitting duck for ranged classes to kite you around. I’m thinking about re-considering the build with more defensive stats and tossing out HGH or Deadly Mixtures for permanent Regeneration, but in the meantime I’m having a blast with my healing build which seems to be very strong in structured PvP.
Healing Elixir Gun and Bomb Build:
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fcAQJAqelIqCYX3ynF17IRoHF++qV0D9XZL/pgcB;ToAgzCmo6y0loLbXuukdN2Y2ABad link
Copy and paste it into your address bar. Guild Wars forum doesn’t recognize it unless it starts with www.
frankly, i dont often need to.
2520 armor, 25k hp, i more often than not make people explode with ft 2, rocket, rocket overcharge, incendiary ammo, and rifle 1 mixed in with 4 nets on rotation before they even get me to 50% to proc my 6pc forge rune.but, typically, if i need to heal bad enough to use medkit 1-3, i will already have just dropped a supply crate and am running around anyway gathering bandages.
the time it takes to drop a bottle every 18 seconds is negligible.
That sounds reasonable for 1v1, but unmanageable for any situation where you have more than one person on you, which is likely to happen when you’re in close range with the FT. Especially when a well-played opponent is making a good effort to keep you controlled with roots, snares, knockbacks and knockdowns. I would hate to have to rely on picking up my heals.
Elixir H is fine for HGH builds, but Med Kit totally outperforms it in every other situation—and even then; the Healing Turret is a bit more complicated because it has a far larger healing potential than the Med Kit does so long as people Blast finish your Water fields. But that happens more frequently and is easier to coordinate in PvE and not PvP.
And finally: on-heal runes like Altruism and Dwayna work best with the Med Kit because it procs when swapped to and not on Bandage Self or Drop Bandage. This allows you to get the most out of such runes without actually having the disadvantage of using your heal skill when you don’t need it most.
Actually it’s quite easy to proc the healing field on the Healing Turret. Healing Turret shoots out it’s regeneration water field .5 seconds after you put it down, so all you have to do is make a habit of exploding your turret .5 seconds after you put it down so you get 2 instant heals, the initial heal, the AOE heal, and 10 seconds of regeneration. Not only that but you’ve started the CD timer on your heal over so it will be ready again in 20 seconds. You can also decide you want conditions removed instead of extra healing and if you overload the Healing Turret instead of exploding it then you get a smaller amount of burst healing but it also AOE removes all conditions. And the good thing is this method didn’t rely on me putting down and picking up a bottle that removes 1 condition every 18 seconds or having to click 4 buttons and move around to heal myself.
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TBH, the “necessity” of stun breakers is chalk full of hyperbole.
There are many builds that are successful without numerous stun breakers, or any at all.
Using medkit mid combat is easy ….
For me, I press Q (swap to medkit). Pretty simple.
It’s not the swapping I’m talking about, that’s easy. I’m talking about having to swap and then press 1, 2, and 3 while also making sure you pickup the bottles. How much time does that take? Clicking Elixer H or Turret takes 1 click, and then you’re back in business. I don’t know why you would want to lay stuff on the ground and pick it up in order to heal mid combat. The only time I would use med kit is to setup a position before a fight.
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I experimented with replacing my bomb kit with mines, to remove retaliation. It wasn’t as fun, though it often worked.
I’m not sure how that build qualifies as having good survivability. The only condition removers you have are from the medkit, which I don’t know how you use in SPvP combat mid fight, and from Super Elixer. The only thing “tanky” about that spec is your life leaching sigils, and even then you have 2 proc on chance Sigils which share the same cooldown and override eachother, thus making one of them almost completely irrelevant.
I never disputed the FT’s damage, I disputed it’s survivability.
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I don’t agree with the original poster.
PvE FT Build:
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fcAQJAqalspSVn1SdF17IBoHAuu3V0jH34J/pAbB;ToAg1CqoyxkjIHbOuck5MwYWA
The build above is amazing for PvE where you can put out a lot of damage and control mobs on the front line with pushback, Smoke Vent, and the Flame Turret’s 5 second Smoke Screen field every 30 seconds. It utilizes a might heavy build that you gain from Juggernaut and HGH and capitalizes on the condition effects from Vulnerability, Bleed, and Burn effects the fast hitting FT provides.
For WvW I switch out the Flame Turret for Elixir C for condition removal and it works pretty good. However, in SPvP I found that this build lacked the defensive stats and utilities to sustain itself in coordinated long duration skirmishes, and you might as well be a sitting duck for ranged classes to kite you around. I’m thinking about re-considering the build with more defensive stats and tossing out HGH or Deadly Mixtures for permanent Regeneration, but in the meantime I’m having a blast with my healing build which seems to be very strong in structured PvP.
Healing Elixir Gun and Bomb Build:
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fcAQJAqelIqCYX3ynF17IRoHF++qV0D9XZL/pgcB;ToAgzCmo6y0loLbXuukdN2Y2A
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with 3 nets, rifle 5 is never hard to land.
If you have 3 nets then you don’t even need Rifle 5 =).
no gap closer if you have pistols, yes, but rifle 5 is a solid gap closer. if you have medkit, medkit 5 doesn’t hurt either.
if you really get in to the rhythm of casting nets and chasing with the FT, you’ll find there is a lot of finesse behind making sure your foe is always within the range of your cone, whether your FT is equipped or not.
you are right about the dps race, though. i enjoy that kind of approach, however, and many do not. no matter if necro, or eng, or whatever, the attrition builds are made to watch HP bars tick away in one fashion or another. the FT is an attrition weapon. a burn spreader. a group harassment tool. a crowd controller. so many useful things.
Net is awesome but Jump Shot is not a gap closer. For 1 it’s range is only 700 feet and the FT’s range is already 600. Secondly it takes .25 seconds to cast in which you cannot be moving. This may not sound like a big deal but you do have to stop running and stand still briefly to use it. Finally, it takes a while to fly through the air and then it does this delayed landing smash effect which takes even more time for your target to move. I prefer having 2 interrupts and a possible stun from a shield than only using the rifle for the net. I don’t use med kit but Elixir B would work just as well.
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The reason I asked about damage meters is because I want to test the practical application between the weapon kits and not just plug in the numbers. Both weapons are aimed very differently and are used from different ranges, so when considering DPS it is important to factor in the accuracy using the weapon when the user is moving while also trying to hit moving targets. Furthermore, since the FT’s range is 600m while the GK’s is 1200m, depending on how you are traited the FT’s abilities may synchronize with Pistols better than the GK’s since when you switch from FT to Pistols you’re presumably already within range to use Pistol abilities whereas if you switch from GK to Pistols you may still need to close a 300m gap from 1200m to be within the Pistols 900m range (this may account for overall dps loss). It’s also important to note that the highest damage pistol ability (Blowtorch) provides the most DPS within melee range, which makes it easier to use with FT over GK.
It also takes into consideration aim and grenade travel time that has to be used with a GK kit. Although you can use the ability every .5 seconds, that doesn’t mean your actually firing them off every .5 seconds. First you must click #1, then you must aim, then you must click again to fire. Not even the best grenadiers can continuously shoot and hit their targets while moving and while the target is moving reliably every .5 seconds; damage meters would account for human thought, action, and reaction times.
You ask why the FT would put out more damage than a GK? Why does a Warrior with more HP and Armor put out more damage than X class? Because range and utility make a difference. The FT is 600 range and the GK is 1200 range, and the closer you are to the action the more susceptible you are to taking more damage and being subjected to controlling effects. Also, a fully traited FT user doesn’t have a gap closer or any real major escape abilities, so you almost completely throw out finesse and become more of a power class that relies on it’s DPS to try and kill targets faster than they can kill you.
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I don’t understand how a fully traited FT + HGH build isn’t the most popular PVE DPS build over a GK + HGH build. It provides more DD damage, stacks more might, you’re already in range to use Blowtorch, and you never have to waste any DPS by taking the time to aim every ability.
Well, the Grenade Kit does more damage than the Flamethrower.
Flame Blast is better at raw power than anything the Grenade Kit has, but spamming Grenade does way more damage than Flame Jet does.
Just curious if there are DPS meters in this game that have tested that. Fully specced into FT you get +30% damage for using it (15% from Alchemy trait, 10% dmg against burning target’s from Flame Jet, and 5% dmg against bleeding targets from Firearms trait). Your also guaranteed a permanent 6-7 stacks of might as long as you wield the FT and FT abilities scale from power better than the GK’s. Add into account that you’re much less likely to miss with the FT than you are with GK abilities, which means more consistent DPS. You will have less condition damage overall with the FT but you will have much more direct damage, and it still attacks fast enough to stack bleed effects, burning, and vulnerability on targets.
Not sure what you’re talking about. I use FT all the time and notice it only misses when the target is right on top of me (next to me or behind me) and a simple side strafe fixes that. However, I also noticed that the FT also hits more in front of me than what is shown as it’s cone of fire, and sometimes just standing next to a target while shooting forward away from it will still hit it.
I don’t understand how a fully traited FT + HGH build isn’t the most popular PVE DPS build over a GK + HGH build. It provides more DD damage, stacks more might, you’re already in range to use Blowtorch, and you never have to waste any DPS by taking the time to aim every ability.
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Without the Elixir Infused Bombs trait, I would take the FT over the Bombkit every time in close quarter group skirmish situations. However, both FT and Bombkit are extremely specialized for close quarters situations and are far less effective in 1v1, transition, and open-field situations.
If you use pistols more than the FT then your Swiftness/Invigor combo is great for a kiting spec, but if FT is your primary weapon like you made it seem in this thread then the Swiftness/Invigor combo is less relevant because the FT shines in close quarter AOE situations. The FT is not designed for you to be popping off shots and rolling around all over the place, because your primary source of damage (Flame Jet) is a 2.25 second channeled ability that does most of it’s damage on the back end of the channel, and your incendiary round and smoke vent can be used while you’re channeling Flame Jet. If you’re going to be rolling around mid channel, you will be wasting a lot of FT damage.
FT is a powerhouse spec, not a finesse spec like the Pistols. You can get 15% increased damage to FT in Alchemy, 10% increased damage against all burning targets, 5% increased damage against bleeding targets, 1% extra damage for every boon on you, and you can stack vulnerability on foes which further increases your damage by a percentage based on how many stacks of Vulnerability you get on them. Having high crit works really well with the FT because it hits many targets and attacks very fast, so therefore it has a good chance of stacking a lot of bleeds, burns, and vulnerability effects on several targets at once. That doesn’t even begin to include all the stacks of might you will have with Juggernaut + HGH combo and whatever runes you choose to use.
I hardly ever use FT #1 or FT #2, but I use 3, 4, and 5 a LOT, and I time incendiary ammo with my biggest swell of DPS once I get the might stacks up and when I know they are about to try and heal. So in that respect, I feel I do use FT a lot, I just don’t look at it as a damage kit for my current build.
Right, you’re using the FT’s defensive abilities to supplement your Pistol kite build, but a true FT build means your primary source of damage would be from the FT.
I can see how that can be useful. However, while the FT may lack the “punishment” the Bombkit provides, it definitely makes up for it by having improved accuracy and the ability to more effectively stack bleeds, burns, and vulnerability on multiple targets, as well as the increased survivability it has.
If you use pistols more than the FT then your Swiftness/Invigor combo is great for a kiting spec, but if FT is your primary weapon like you made it seem in this thread then the Swiftness/Invigor combo is less relevant because the FT shines in close quarter AOE situations. The FT is not designed for you to be popping off shots and rolling around all over the place, because your primary source of damage (Flame Jet) is a 2.25 second channeled ability that does most of it’s damage on the back end of the channel, and your incendiary round and smoke vent can be used while you’re channeling Flame Jet. If you’re going to be rolling around mid channel, you will be wasting a lot of FT damage.
FT is a powerhouse spec, not a finesse spec like the Pistols. You can get 15% increased damage to FT in Alchemy, 10% increased damage against all burning targets, 5% increased damage against bleeding targets, 1% extra damage for every boon on you, and you can stack vulnerability on foes which further increases your damage by a percentage based on how many stacks of Vulnerability you get on them. Having high crit works really well with the FT because it hits many targets and attacks very fast, so therefore it has a good chance of stacking a lot of bleeds, burns, and vulnerability effects on several targets at once. That doesn’t even begin to include all the stacks of might you will have with Juggernaut + HGH combo and whatever runes you choose to use.
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I don’t know how you use bombkit in PvP to do damage. You can’t even aim it, you just randomly drop bombs in an area and hope people walk into them. Try fighting a ranged class with bombkit.
I would definitely ditch the speed for the 33% chance to inflict burning on crit. The fact that you take Juggernaut means that FT should be your primary weapon and the pistols should be your secondary range and versatility weapons, and maintaining a constant burning effect on multiple targets is one of the FT’s greatest advantages. You also won’t be kiting very much in this spec, so Swiftness doesn’t help you as much when you’re backpedaling and strafing to find the sweet spot that burns as many targets as possible. Furthermore, your Elixir spec already gives you 13 seconds of Swiftness from your Elixir B and random chances to gain 13 more seconds of Swiftness when you use Elixir H and toss Elixir B.
Also, I took Infused Precision for Vulnerability stacks rather than Hair Trigger. Buffs and Debuffs are what define the Engineer class, so I focused my build around building my buffs and continously keeping lots of stacks of burning, bleeding, and vulnerability effects on my opponents.