Guild Wars 2

With the amount of arguing going on in this forum, with interesting evidence on both sides, I feel that the writers have done a good job creating a morally grey race.
Good job, writers! Keep at it!

There are a few facts that we need to consider with any race.
-We can’t judge the entire race as a whole and need to consider them individuals. Every race has its unfavorable groups: Inquest, Nightmare Court, Sons of Svanir, Flame Legion, White Mantle/Bandits. It is possible that the Mursaat had factions within their race as well.

-History is written by the winners. Take anything that one group says with a grain of salt. We can’t just blindly trust everything that the Forgotten told us as the absolute truth. They may have altered or even redacted parts of their history, and I wouldn’t put it past the Mursaat either. There will be things that both sides would rather forget.

-Pure evil and pure good have difficulty existing in dynamic characters. Characters can change. Sudden change is suspect, so I am wary of Lazarus, but it would be more interesting if he is a nuanced character that makes slip-ups, falls into old habits, and awkwardly tries to prove himself to those that slayed the dragons. If he is just manipulating us like others in the past, I’ll just call it a snooze fest, since we’ve already done that story.

We shouldn’t hope for Lazarus to be either a good or a bad character, but rather hope for him to be an interesting, deep, and dynamic character. Making him the bad guy or making him goody-two-shoes are the easy and lazy way of writing him. I want him to do good, but also say things that make our character argue with him. I want him to make a mistakes, raise our suspicion with a choice that is morally difficult, bond with some characters, but not get along with others.
The writers have already made interesting choices involving Lazarus and the Mursaat. It’s a good start, and I hope they keep it up.

@lakdav.3694
Like I’ve said before, we essentially know nothing about the Elder Dragons. It wasn’t until recently that the devs dropped the whole “Sylvari are dragon minions” on us. The theory was there for 2 years before the reveal, but it could have easily gone the other way as well. But isn’t that what makes theory crafting fun?

The dragons could have been absorbing corruption and the dragon corruption is its form of bleeding into Tyria. It could end up being that all we’re doing in killing the EDs is causing a super magic storm, and raw primordial magic will envelope the world in chaos.

It pretty exciting to think that once the EDs are gone as a threat, we’ll see the dawning of something that has never happened before in the entire history of Tyria, Elona, and Cantha. So far the only theory I’ve seen for the ED death is the over-abundance of magic. I’m just proposing another possibilty.

lakdav.3694:

I would like you to specify what ‘corruption’ is and what is not. Not just in a single dragon’s case, but on the whole, since you theorize that its a global thing that the dragons just picked up.

Some forms of corruption are easy to see as examples. Jormag’s corrupted ice. Mordremoth’s beastial plant creatures. Zhaitan’s undead nation. But what exactly is ‘corruption’? Is it a change in something’s nature? After all, dead things and plants are not supposed to move around killing people.

Corruption (n):
-moral perversion; depravity. Synonyms: dissolution, immorality
-perversion of integrity
-putrefactive decay; rottenness. Syn: foulness, pollution, contamination

Yes, plants and undead are not supposed to attack, but we have plenty of necromancers and Sylvari running around that want nothing to do with the Elder Dragons. The problem right now is if my theory is true, the EDs have the majority of the corruption, and anything else with non-dragon corruption has it in such low amounts that it has gone unnoticed. The EDs would have to been absorbing the corruption for millions of years to reach the amount they currently have.

What I found strange is that everyone has accepted that the EDs are a natural cycle of the world. They are so ancient that it is unknown where they came from. The consuming of magic is not their true goal, just a side effect of their destruction according to the Durmond Priory.

What I found strange is how the EDs magic is referred to as “dragon corruption.” Their magic is rarely referred to as “draconic magic” which is more accurate. Glint’s magic is always talked about as “draconic magic,” but she was well on her way to being an Elder Dragon herself. How was her magic different? Why are the EDs talked about like contamination and pollution? Aren’t they just a natural disaster like a hurricane or an earthquake? Natural disasters and pollution are two different things. Yes, they both cause damage, but pollution is rarely natural.

Unfortunately, the devs have been very careful in how much we know about the EDs. Glint’s egg, Gleam, and Bubbles could provide more hints, or could give us nothing.

Deleena.3406:

Wasnt it revealed Mordy was the corruption? (although this may only be true for Mordy)
its a interesting theory

Well, every time I read about the dragon corruption, it’s referred to in possessive form, “its corruption.” The Elder Dragons themselves are not the embodiment of corruption. They don’t personify it, but rather own it. Like magic, corruption seems to be a resource.

I really want to see Bubbles, and I hope that it’s not corrupted like the others. It would really make things more interesting to have a nice Elder Dragon. Also, it would add so much to the lore and might give me some more proof about the corruption theory.

Erukk.1408:

DuskyInsanePoet.4218:

Glint and the Pale Tree were freed of the corruption by the Forgotten, so maybe it’s possible that the corruption is not the natural state of the Elder Dragons.

The Forgotten’s spell didn’t remove or free Glint from Kralk’s corruption. It simply removed Kralk’s direct control over her and gave her free will.

As for the Pale Tree, unless I missed something, we still haven’t gotten exact confirmation on what exactly happened to the seed to give it free will. All we know is that something did happen.

The Alter of Glaust and the ritual give back free will. Glint remained loyal to Kralkatorrik until she started reading everyone’s thoughts and then chose not to work for him. There’s a purified risen chicken at the alter, so the purification works on all Elder Dragon corruption, not just Kralk’s. In a way, all dragon corruption is the same somehow.

Also, the Zephyrites tried to protect Glint’s draconic magic so that it would not fall into the wrong hands, so dragon magic is corruptible.

The Forgotten used magic that could not be corrupted by the dragons, but that’s all they really tell us. The lore of the Forgotten is a mystery that holds the answers to many questions.

I know there’s a lot of muddy areas in my theory, but I’m doing the best I can with what little information we have on the true nature of the Elder Dragons and the lore of the Forgotten. I theory-craft for fun, it’s like putting together a puzzle missing most of the pieces.

What if the Elder Dragons are not the source of the corruption?

Glint and the Pale Tree were freed of the corruption by the Forgotten, so maybe it’s possible that the corruption is not the natural state of the Elder Dragons.

The Elder Dragons consume massive quantities of magic over several millennia. It is possible that corruption was in the magic, leaking from somewhere. Over time, the corruption would build up in the dragons’ bodies, but, unlike the magic, would remain in their bodies even after they fell asleep. Eventually, the EDs would have built up enough corruption to start spreading it to others.

If the EDs were not originally corrupt, it is possible that they were guardians against the corruption. The EDs also have the natural ability to purify corrupted magic, slowing the pollution. The process of consuming magic then releasing it back into the world is a natural purification of magic.

The corruption is leaking into the magic. Killing the dragons is allowing corrupted magic to flow into the world with unknown consequences. When Mordremoth yelled his final words, “What have you done?” I felt as if there was something very wrong.

At first, the EDs were probably neutral, perhaps kind like Glint. The over-saturation of corruption would eventually turn them into the terrible beings we know today. Their mission to protect the world against corruption and to purify the magic would twist into the logic that “purify” also means genocide of the races that utilize magic.

I look forward to seeing what others have to say.

Here’s my theory as to why Mordremoth looked like a giant Mordrem troll in the dream…
>.>
<.<
Because he was trolling us all… o.o

@Zoltar MacRoth – Thank you.

@AESOkami – I’ll go and check that episode out. It seems most people are getting to the end of the story, and feeling like it is incomplete. Hopefully, when all the new story stuff comes out, all the theory crafters will be able to look back and say, “I knew it was too easy!”

Ojyh.9842:

I agree with most of it. I only have different interpretations on some details.
Like Mordremoth’s weakness. He’s the dragon of plants and mind. We’ve been told that during season 2. This dragon IS the jungle, and he’s completely immobile because of that. The only way he can expand his influence on the world is through his mind and his vines. He has to have an incredibly powerful mind. He has to be able to trick us, and to prevent us from killing his mind through the Dream thanks to a simple and weak Sylvari that is nothing more than his own creation. It was stupid to make his mind his weakness. It was just a really bad deus ex machina to end the story a lot quicker than it should !
The dragon has a real body somewhere. We saw his mouth after Scarlet’s death. He has a body that is immobilized. His weakness has to be his real body, not his mind. His mind is his best tool and weapon. We should have found his body burried deep in the jungle, found his real heart, the HEART OF THORNS, and destroyed it ! I want this story to finish with the death of a real big impressive dragon, not a plump lizard walking on two legs.

I’m really hoping this is not the end. Everything HAS to be pushed further in this story. It can’t stay like that, this is clearly not satisfying.
There are 16 chapters I believe. I felt like I was half way through the story during chapter 14. Not only because it felt way too short for an entire expansion story, but mostly because the 2 last chapters are like “let’s finish this quickly !” when nothing is actually resolved (hence the deus ex machina) And all this only because ANet wanted to kill Mordremoth at the end of the expansion, which wasn’t necessary at all. The story lost a lot of its credibility and epicness because of that and feels sketchy.

I want to see a plot twist in the next living story season that shows us we’ve been manipulated and the only thing we did was to kill Trahearne. It was all part of Mordremoth’s plan to make us believe we killed him so now he can prepare his next big attack (like attacking Rata Sum which is right next to him) without being disturbed by the races of Tyria fighting him.

In my opinion WoodenPotatoes sums up all the problems HoT story has (sadly they are many) in this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tL-8bSUothk
He’s a big GW lore nerd and his opinions are always very interesting and very well thought. And he’s followed closely by the devs so I expect them to react if it’s not the case already.

Why do the elder dragons even need a weakness to begin with? I tried to not explore that tangent, because it is full of lore contradictions. Kralkatorrik can only be hurt with his own body, similar to the legendary lion in Hercules, that could only be killed and skinned with it’s own claws. The crystal dragon is a living crystal, so I can accept the whole “can only scratch a diamond with an equal or better diamond.” Zhaitan… Yeah, I didn’t see any real weakness there. We literally starved him, destroyed his armies, and blasted a giant super-laser at him. That was military tactics, not weakness. The EDs never really had an Achilles tendon weakness before. They are the embodiment of the chaotic forces of nature that hold the world together. If a volcano explodes, it doesn’t have a weakness, people don’t fight it(unless they live in Iceland). This whole “Elder Dragon Weakness” contradicts everything we’ve learned so far.

As Mordremoth is officially the dragon of mind, I was kinda hoping for a giant war of subtlety and subterfuge(Order of Whispers battle anyone?). I am personally hoping that my Sylvari Reaper is actually an unsuspecting sleeper agent for Mordremoth. Through Trahearne, Mordremoth realized that that his real target was none other than the Commander. Putting up a convincing act, he draws the Commander into the dream, where he can turn this pillar of power into a perfect puppet. While everyone is distracted with the dream battle, Mordremoth gets to work. Of course, this strategy is a high risk move, as he releases a lot of his magic to make his “death” look convincing, but the real battle has only just begun. The death of Trahearne was a bonus. At least, this is my hope. I thought Mordremoth would be equivalent to Niv-Mizzet from MtG in intelligence. A dragon so intelligent that a mind-reader trying to read his mind would make his/her brain spontaneously combust. I’ll just keep my fingers crossed.

I also agree that it was way to short. Like I said before: urgency does not equal short story. I need my fill of good story-telling.

I love WP. I only just recently watched his HoT lore video, since I am not one for spoilers.

I am typically a forum lurker, frequenting the forums but not responding. After playing through the HoT story and reading many forum threads and watching videos about the topic, I decided it was time to talk.

ArenaNet,
Ever since you released the expansion, you have been flooded with criticism and complaints. It is understandable that right now is very stressful, trying to fix all the problems that weren’t caught in the beta, and finding some equal ground with the player base.

As I explored this new world, I felt as I had when I first started playing. I was vulnerable again, not yet knowing what to expect of this strange new land. The jungle and Ley-line Confluence was beautiful, expansive, and dangerous. The new gameplay of the Revenant and specializations put new life into repetitive builds. Gliding and bouncing around on mushrooms was a joy. Being a music nerd, I would just sit in certain locations and just close my eyes and listen, taking time to enjoy the musical art.

The new lands and environments are amazing, and people who worked on them deserve a standing ovation. My own personal let-down was the Personal Story.

This is nothing new. I have lurked the forums and know that lore-geek criticism has been prevalent. I don’t agree with everything, but there are a few common themes that I did agree with.

There was much anticipation about the new story and all the new lore that would be discovered in this strange land, but the story was rushed, and the lore was not as explored and flesh out as it could have been. I understand that there was a sense of urgency, but “urgency” and “short” are not synonyms. Using a classic example, in Lord of the Rings, there was a sense of urgency to destroy The One Ring. It was the one thing that could save or condemn all that was good, but the journey was drawn out in three long books. In HoT, we are Frodo, especially true of Sylvari resisting the dragon’s power, and the dragon’s mind is our Mount Doom. Sadly, we threw the ring into Mount Doom at chapter 3.

Personally, I was hoping for even more struggle against Mordremoth. I wanted him to be a dragon I would love to hate. He had more character than Zhaitan, but I was hoping for more mind games, and more characters turning on one another. The fight mechanics were satisfying, but I felt that I didn’t hate him enough in the end. When it came to Zhaitan, though the battle was not as satisfying mechanic-wise, I hated him enough to not be too worried about that. Zhaitan took many of my favorite characters away, mocked their sacrifice, and told me that I could easily join them if I died. Seeing Zhaitan fall in such a pitiful state was better than he deserved.

The whole part about Rata Novus and seeing Rata Sum in the distance felt like a lost opportunity. Rata Sum is a magical floating city. Mordremoth was already attacking and destroying simple waypoints, so Rata Sum should have been a magical all-you-can-eat buffet. There was a chance to explore Asuran politics and their collective resentment towards the elder dragons, but there was nothing.

Rata Novus was beautiful and I loved how the city was built using the ley-lines as a super charge station. The scientific Cave Johnson/bioshock feel of the area made me chuckle. There is so much that can be done with Rata Novus in the future, so I remain hopeful. When we go to the dragon lab, the “discovery” was terrible. “All the elder dragons have a weakness.” That is a line taken straight from the Water is Wet News Station. We are talking about Asura. They are a race of geniuses, save the one in prison. I’m pretty sure there was more to their data and studies than a simple “there is a weakness.” Even if there was nothing about Mordremoth, I would have gladly taken some Primordus lore in its place.

Now, for discovering the weakness of one of the greatest forces of nature, Mordremoth. I can accept that his weakness is his mind, his body is too large and resilient to keep down. The problem was the discovery, or lack there of. Struggling to find the weakness with the threat of destruction at any moment was a missed story chance. Knowing that the player character and group of comrades are trying to pin down his weakness, character development would happen. Both sides would have interesting interactions. Mordremoth trying to hide his mortal weakness and maybe even trying to convince the players that killing him will result in greater danger. The player could question for what purpose the elder dragons exist, still seeing them as too great a problem in the end. There could have been uncertainty that his weakness was even his mind. Everyone was too sure about his weakness in the end.

I cannot say too much about the new races, simply because there was not much to go on. I would love to know much more about the Itzel, Nuhoch, and Exalted. What are they like as individuals? Do any Exalted dislike the Charr? What does it sound like when the Itzel sing? Are the Nuhoch really as xenophobic and distrusting of strangers as the devs said? There are so many questions that could simply be answered with simple text boxes with npcs and a little more atmospheric chatter.

Those are my main issues with the story and lore. There will be people telling me that if I, or any other lore-geek critic, doesn’t like the game, we shouldn’t play. And here I confess my own personal reason for raising notice on things I felt were unsatisfactory: I love Guild Wars 2. I, lore-geek, love this game, its story, lore, and history. The reason I write my concerns down, the reason I take time out of my day to type up this page, is because I love the game enough to care deeply about it. If I did not care at all, I would not even bother.

Every time I log in, I enter a magical world and watch over my character. There is nothing that can compare to this feeling of playing the game. I know that the creators of this game are imaginative, smart, hardworking people that can bring fantasy to life. They made me laugh when the Asura were insulting each other about the calibration of an experimental portal. They made me smile when I found a Sylvari working hard to help some spiders find peace. They made me cry when Tybalt/Sieran/Forgal ran in to hold back the hoards of risen, with no hope of survival.

I know the developers, artists, composers, voice actors, story writers and more are brilliant, and that is why I place high hopes on you. I cannot speak for everyone, but I know I want your creation to succeed and become one of the greatest games out there.
Sincerely,
DuskyInsanePoet the Lore-Geek

TL;DR There are some problems with the HoT personal story, and I point them out because I care about the game.