Guild Wars 2

thrag.9740:

OP something you may not be aware of is that raid bosses have very different levels of difficulty from one another.

I know I know
Actually I am already speaking with some friends and see if we wanna try VG or the escort first. I’ve done both of them, but with experienced pug groups (i was lucky I guess), but sadly never completed – except the VG.

For example, vg isn’t the easiest boss imo. imo escort is the easiest raid ‘boss’ and then trio, and then mursaat overseer. You may want to try doing those raids first, as they are a good way to get you the introductory experience (using voice coms, using a rotation, understanding your role in a group, and what a group normally looks like).

Once you have those bosses, gorseval, samarog, and kc are a small step up in difficulty.

imo, vg is in the middle in terms of difficulty, many players think it is one of the easiest, but I believe that is only because it is their most experienced fight.

I know. Actually this is an issue I raised in one of the raiding guilds I am in. I was “guys why are we doing VG when the mech is harder vs escort?” they replied with WE know the mech of the well :| and half of the grp was composed of noobs with average dps of 2k)) I was surprised we managed to kill him.

maddoctor.2738:

Emperor Palpatine.5329:

Select the Raid you want to train on and wait in queue until 10 people are selected (it is generated by the system, no human intervention on the way the squad is created).

Let’s see why this is a problem even for the very first Raid boss (Vale Guardian), heck even before reaching the actual fight itself but the trash mobs.

You need someone with extra toughness (above the others) to tank Vale Guardian
You need enough players with good condition damage to deal with the Red Guardian
You need some reliable form of Boon strip to deal with the Blue Guardian
You need a good mix of ranged and melee characters, so the ranged ones can go to the green circles
You need enough Healers to defeat Vale Guardian
Having a Chrono + Druid + PS Warrior triples the DPS of the team. A team with 2 x Chrono, 2 x Druid, 2 x PS Warrior + 4 random DPS builds deals way more damage than 10 random DPS builds (plus other buffs, heals, survival etc)
Selecting 10 Random players won’t work very well on Vale Guardian.

Complete valid points. You are correct here So maybe they might also create these squads based on the specs needed. So get 3 eli, 2 heal etc. Of course you can’t know for sure if the Eli is on the correct build…but than again evein in regular grp u don;t know that unless u check the dps or ping the gear.

In order for an automatic system to work they’d need to make sure there is a very distinct idea of Tank/Healer/Damage role so you can pick which one you use and the system can put you in the correct slot. That’s not possible at the moment in Guild Wars 2 as there are no clearly defined roles like that. In other games you decide you play a Tank, many classes can play Tank and they are -mostly- interchangeable. That’s NOT the case in Guild Wars 2.

True as well. Since the don’t use the holy trinity, on the other hand maybe the tool might have like a select ur role thing (its stretching a bit, I know but as a solution). Like before u go to the queue it can ask you for the role u want to play.

Once you are done with this you can try your luck with LFG and see what squad will take you.

Why do you believe the LI requirements on LFG will disappear if they add this training? Once you are done with training you will be at square one again, looking for (normal mode) training runs to earn those LIs in order to join faster runs after. Nothing will change regarding the LFG.

I don’t think they will go away, however this proposal I want to run by people has the end scope of training new players into the raid mechanic. Can;t change people wanting LI ping…that is still an issue and will always be (if its not LI, its gonna be gear ping bla bla bla). But at least u have the opp to know the mechanics, and to be fair some LFGs will accept u without LI if u know the mecha of the raid.

But I appreciate the nice criticism and the constructive approach u are providing

So guys maybe we went a bit off the main topic here, by talking about DPS and other things that do not relate to my initial post.
So let me re-cap a bit and get things going into the right direction
Reading all these above post, I can agree that indeed some of the tool that are recommended by you, for new raid players, are valid.
My issue, at the end of the day is not with elitist, with LI ping or any other player related behavior, as that will never be changed by someone.
So I propose a strict analysis based on an idea I will provide below and only for those point we should talk about. Nothing beyond it, just to entertain the idea and see whta + and – it may have.
Idea:
Anet creates a LFT (Looking for Train) mode.
You access it just like you do with LFG. Select the Raid you want to train on and wait in queue until 10 people are selected (it is generated by the system, no human intervention on the way the squad is created).
In order to make it work Anet would have to develop a similar trophy, like the LI, that players will gain by completing these training. If you completed VG in training mode you get 1 and so on. Based on that the system can check what group should you be assigned to.
Actual raid mechanics:
All raid bosses and mechanics are lowered on the damage they cause, however core mechanics stay the same. For in VG for example the green orbs will have the same principle, if they appear because of bad tanking and you don;t have players on them you die.
What will be different is the actual damage that red circles, orbs and other raid specific mechanics will bring. They will still do damage but it will be lowered, as to accommodate a new player. I saw a lot of ideas to change the mechanics of the orbs and such, but I do not agree with that. Just have mechanics the same, except the damage is lower than the actual raid.
So after a player will complete the training she/he will receive a trophy, much like LI and with that the system can assign them to higher and higher groups of training, until the actual training = the raid. At that point it should be good for raid. Once you are done with this you can try your luck with LFG and see what squad will take you. The main difference versus the way of working we have now is that some of the players will actually know what they need to do in the raid and not waste time, generate useless talk or cause unending frustrations.
I propose this way of letting other people study and learn raids because:
- LI ping real issue
- raids mostly done via the guild (not acceptable for everyone)
- PUG = complete fail in most cases
- You start training on LFG and players with no knowledge and no interest in the raid join and you (as a person that wants to learn and gives input) lose time.

So, going back to this, what do you guys think are the major downfalls…but please just stick to this and don;t add other stuff that is not relevant here. If more info regarding this system is needed please ask so I can answer it

mmmm interesting. That might work. Don’t change the reward track, keep it for highest level, but scale it somehow. Not bad, and also easier to implement I think.

what are u talking about? Have you even read my post?)) That is not even my problem…OMG talk about “looks who’s talking”. maddoctor please READ my post and after come back to me. Thank you!
As a side note i think some of the players just want to refuse by default any ideas to improve the game because the hang on the the status quo to have that unique feeling of “I am the best”.
CHOICES

Yeah, that’s the problem. Because only a small number of people are doing that. The rest find this entire system broken and just refuse to take part in it. And I understand it…why should I go to all this trouble just to raid? It’s just a game after all. But the real problem is that these people once they are done with the PVE content they leave the game. Anet should be checking the retention part with strict eyes. If ur end game content is not available to all players you have a problem. It’s like playing the story and not being able to finish it because the content is way to difficult for u and u don;t have the opportunity to learn it in game.

My friend, I know that raiding is end content. I am not arguing about that. What I want anet to do is invest in the getting into raids part. Training, changing the way people learn the raids and making it’s content available.
Having a system that will gather noobs players and let them study the raid on a lower scale is something that can help other players to get into this.
Finding a guild is actually difficult. Maybe u are NA or from English speaking countries. For me, personally, that’s not an issue, but making a country guild, with people playing GW2 is not easy. For 6 months now I’m trying to gather people and getting them to play, but that is hard, because the numbers are low. For example an UK or Spanish guild that would be easier. The time is also a problem. If ur in the east part of EU and u join a guild from UK or Spain u have a time difference. I don;t want the easy way, I am suggesting to make things better. I never got why do people hang on to a specific thing so much without contemplating the idea of change. All should enjoy all aspects of the game, like WvW or PVP – if u suck at it because u don;t train and learn how to play u get kicked or u die and fail. But make it available, dont keep stuff for the 100k people that are doing raids at the moment. That is not acceptable to me. I invest time and money in the game and my expectation from anet is to invest in this aspect as well

OK , now I know u are just a random guy.
So you are probab one of the elitists that think raiding is only for this group of people.
Don;t tell me what I;ve done and I am doing because you don;t know me. You hav no idea how difficult it was to actually find a guild that could teach me how to raid, and the language barrier is real. People don’t know English and when a non English speakers explains the bastion and all u hear is big d…k stay away it’s kind of difficult. But of course when u identify with the elitists it’s easy to say OMG U are lazy. I call BS on that Sir!
Those tools…what? Are u kidding me? I get more info off of WP and Brasil)
I’m not going to explain myself to people that think others should not do a specific content. If you want that develop a game for 100k people, pay like 1000 euros’ a month for support and develp and leave gw2. This is a game for a lot of people and since they are paying customers they should have the same opport as the rest. Guild, friends and reddit? What? Are you for real? My friends play WOW because they can raid there
In the end systems should be in place to make sure that the exact people like you are balanced and do not disturb other players performance. Game should have constant development and must always attract new players. If raids are not played, those 6 devs that are working on them have no point = they are assigned to different parts of the game. A clear example of that is dungeons. You have dungs that are so amazing and no one is doing because people lost interest in them and because high elitism made newer players stay way from them. No more players doing that dung, no more dev for them. Main idea is that raiding in GW2 is broken. It is available for a small section and other players are not able to even study them. Not all people know English to read redit for utube, not all people have guild in the native language and so on. mechanics in a game must be studied IN THE GAME, not outside it. That is not normal. Scale down, make training or just let raids die. If you don’t believe check the LFG and count the number of available people, it’s a dry content for such a huge player based game (taking into account that 75% of players are PVE).

Are u an actual dev for Anet for just a random guy?
First of all can you please tell me what are these tools of geting into raids? Besides LFG I do not know any other “tool” used for raiding. LFG = cancer.
Blaming laziness of players because of low interest in raids = you just made by above point. Of course I will go and do AB or DS or whatever if I can;t actually raid because I can’t learn it. People want content that is accessible, not something designed for a small group of people. The fact that you will always find other players that are actual lazy is different. For that you can have a kick system based on 60% of the group agreeing. Not all people are lazy Sir. It’s on thing to say “people are lazy” and it’s another to look at this issue as “no training available for raiding”, bit of course it;s always easier to be lazy, blame other people for actual problems instead of looking at the issue with an objective eye. Side note: what is Anet doing anyway with raiding? They wanna keep it for like 100k players that have exp or what? I don;t get it…you would think end game content is something a company is interested in and pushing players to do it.

The system I have explained above. Make a LFR automatic system (like in PVP) that you access and it puts you in a waiting queue. This should only be done for training purposes. In the queue the game will search other players that match your skills based on different criteria (LI, time in game, number of hours, masteries, fractal level etc). A group of 10 players i created and they go and do the actual raid as a noob group. Simple and easy.

Well Sir to answer these questions:
1) Post will LI will always be present. You can;t change what people want to do, its their own time and that is that. What will go away will be the posts by other players (that want to learn the raid but can;t because of elitism and LI ping bla bla). Now they have the chance to learn the mechanic, git gud and once that is done join groups or start ur own whatever and do the kitten raid.
2) That is the problem that is causing all these posts with I can;t raid. It’s a circle that comes back to the same issue: no experience, you can’t do the raid, no one will take you, boss is too difficult for training purposes and for players that don;t know the mechanic. Since you can;t learn the mechanic other way – except by doing the actual raid – we have a big problems And that Sir is ur circle of never ending issues.
Just make a system that is better for players and that is helping the player base and pushing it to raid. Don’t let raids end up like dungeons. Lack of interest is a big – big issue. If players end up doing more AB or DS versus a raid, y’all that is a problem. That means that content is not reachable except for a minority, and the game is for all players.

I know that training for raids isn’t something that you guys are specifically interested in, however it’s shame to see good content (cuz raiding is OMG, so kitten in this game) go to waste or be available only for few people that have a lot of experience doing this.
Making a specific system in place for noob players might eliminate a lot of issues: all elitists will be free to do whatever they want without other players making "OMG elitis, can;t raid bla bla bla), let people train on the mechanics, don’t nurf current raids, no rewards, but you get the training out of it. You become better and you can go and do them for real. I think it should be easy for the code to read the LI you have, and based on that create a squad. You can continue doing whatever you are doing on the map until the squad is ready and you begin the raid. Maybe making them like fractals isn’t easy to develop. Of course I’m not a dev so I have no idea the time, money and effort this might take.

Well I’m thinking of marking in the system the LI (like LFG pugs are doing now) and based on that you can check if the player did it before, how many time etc. If no LI you should have the bossed scaled to a min accepted level. Or maybe do it like fractals.

Hey Anet and dear devs,

I would like to address a real issue that most players are facing these days (players that never done raids till this point). We have here 2 major issues:
1) So you are a newer player (lets say 3-4-5 months) and you have the basics to start raiding (got your ascended weapons and trinkets, the meta build or whatever build give you the highest dps or condi whatever). So you go and check for parties. No one is actually letting you stay (and I don’t mean on Monday Elitist day). So this would be the first issue: LFG system to me is broken. I have nothing against people wanting to do thing with their party / squad, but new players DO NOT have the opportunity to learn raids. The only way I was able to actually learn the VG for example was on youtube checking vids from other players. That should not be happening. Each players should have the opportunity to learn the raid (so not talking about making the raid easier, I am just talking about the mechanics). Bottom line: even if you know the raid, maybe you did it a couple of times, players will just not take you because they ask for LI ping (and in some aspects I fully get that, nobody wants to carry bad players on their own time).
2) Because the struggle with raiding is real, sometimes I start these training parties on LFG and you just get really – really bad players that don’t know what to do, because they are not given the chance to learn (so excluding those I wanna raid but I’m too lazy to study the raid bosses and mechanics).

So, making this story short: you are new, you want to raid, you can’t learn, players want experience, you can’t train – how in Gods name is one suppose to raid?
TBH this is making a lot of people not so interested in raiding because it’s just not accessible. If people are not into raiding they will no longer craft (why would they) and they will just stick to PVE or some daily PVP whatever works). End game content must be made available to players and they should have a system that will allow them to train on it and learn it. So again, I don’t want to make it easier or scale bosses. Raids are so much fun and hard to do, they should stay like that, but people must have equal changes to study them.

So here’s my suggestion to this issue:

We should have a system (don;t wanna name it because I am not a fan of that game) where players are matched based on the level of experience they have and create automatic groups for raiding. LFG should still be available, but implement this new system for new players that want to learn the raid. I think bosses here should be scaled and also the reward track should be eliminated (not fair for players, as you are getting things easier). So using this noobs can do their thing, learn the mechanics and join other parties once they have the needed experience for real raiding. As a side note: please don;t tell me that raiding should be done in guilds, because not all players are into guilds and also it’s not normal to limit my time to guild schedules. This should be adapted to all players. Some of us have jobs, or kids whatever and don;t have the time to be available to fixed schedules for training purposes.
I think having this system would be so much better, people would really get into raids more, you would have more groups learning about them and looking for the end content.

What do y’all think about this? Also sorry if this was already addressed but would appreciate an answer from a raiding dev regarding this.