Guild Wars 2

You literally can use ANY Stability-granting skill and walk right out of it. The senseless calling for nerfs (seriously…an ELITE that only holds for ONE SECOND is your desire???) needs to stop.

Stability. You can walk RIGHT THROUGH IT.

INTRO

So, while explaining the differences between Guild Wars 1 and Guild Wars 2 to my fiancee, it suddenly hit me…

To my knowledge (and in my own personal experience), when there is a complaint about the Guild Wars 2 skill system it typically comes down to it being too bland. You know that the Guardian standing across from you wielding a Sword & Focus has the exact same weapon skills as the Guardian in your own party wielding a Sword & Focus. So the only thing differentiating those two (as far as the SKILL BAR itself goes) are their chosen Utilities and Elite.

Compare this with Guild Wars 1 where you could see a Warrior standing across from you wielding a Sword & Shield and using completely different sword-based skills from the Sword & Shield Warrior in your own party. The Warrior across from you may have specialized in the Swordsmanship Attribute and be wielding Swordsmanship skills focused on causing Bleed/Cripple/Deep Wound, whereas your own party’s Warrior may have focused on the Strength or Tactics line, focusing either on delivering hard hits via Strength or utilizing Blocks and Stances/Ripostes/Parries via Tactics.

There is a stark contrast in what can be done with weapons in Guild Wars 1 compared to Guild Wars 2, mostly due to the difference in skill systems between the games.

But what if we could alleviate some of the difference while expanding gameplay AND all while not destroying the current skill system at the same time?

IDEA/SUGGESTION

What if an aspect of the old Dual Profession system was brought back…so that you could choose a secondary Profession and wield the Weapon Skills (ONLY the Weapon Skills, not Utilities or Elites) of your chosen secondary class?

For example, let us say that I am a Guardian who has chosen Warrior as my secondary. Both the Guardian and the Warrior have many over-lapping weapons available to them. Let’s pretend that I wish to wield a Sword & Shield, weapons that are common to both Professions. Now, under this theoretical system, whenever I wield a weapon for which both my classes have skills, I would be able to choose which Profession’s skills I have on my bar for those weapons.

So, as a Guardian, I would have the option to either be using the:

(A.) Guardian’s 1-handed Sword Skills + Guardian Shield Skills
(B.) Guardian’s 1-handed Sword Skills + Warrior Shield Skills
(C.) Warrior’s 1-handed Sword Skills + Guardian Shield Skills
(D.) Warrior’s 1-handed Sword Skills + Warrior Shield Skills

This new system could potentially be intentionally limited to help preserve Profession weapon identities as well, simply by only allowing you to swap one of your equipped weapon’s skill sets to that of your secondary class (IE You can have either A, B, or C from the list above, but you can NEVER have D. Or in other words, one of your equipped weapons must ALWAYS be using the skill set of your main Profession, so that you can’t just be using an entire other class’s weapon set with your own Utilities + Elite slapped on).

CLOSING

Obviously this system would not be balanced in the current game. I’m not suggested something like this should just be slapped on. But imagine if the game was made this way from the start or if the weapon skills system was redesigned to implement such an idea?

In my opinion, this would bring back some much needed variety and build diversity to Guild Wars 2, particularly to the PvP side of the game (not to mention the slew of options it would open up in WvW small-scale combat encounters as well as PvE…though PvE is not difficult regardless, so the tactical variety offered by this system wouldn’t change much there unless PvE becomes more challenging).

This would bring back the Dual Profession mechanic of the first game in the form of Cross-Class Weapon Skills, it would bring variety to the gameplay (imagine seeing an Axe/Axe Warrior…but using cross class skills on his main hand…perhaps throwing the axes by using the Ranger main hand Axe skills while keeping his native Warrior off-hand axe skills!), and it would potentially spice up the game and build diversity in a great way that hearkens back to Guild Wars 1 without entirely destroying the new and separate system that Guild Wars 2 has.

I haven’t really sat and fleshed the entire post out as well as I like, and it may be a bit of a read, but thoughts anyone?

Our map had the same thing…only we succeeded with a clutch kill after the failed Megalaser. It felt like the most amazing Teq ever because of the clutch nature, with the entire map coming together to fight tooth and nail for that last bit of health in the waning 30 seconds before utter failure. Getting crushed by the massive Teq tidal wave and then coming back for the win…priceless.

However, I completely and totally agree with how crappy and unacceptable the lag and delay was. For as much as I love the camera options, this patch has a huge number of bugs:

Broken Guild Chat (fixed by opening friends list, going invis, and going back online)
Green Chat Text
Texture-less Triple Trouble Wurms
Uber lag/skill delay

Something clearly went wrong in implementation. I’m hoping they’ll get it under control soon. They need to if they want people to keep faith for updates and Heart of Thorns…

(Top success quote from that Teq run in my map though: “Where’s my precursor, because that clutch kill was kitten-ing LEGENDARY!”)

As above. The Initialy HOOK has a 17.5 CD when TRAITED. The PULL however is 45 CD. No matter what, a DH cannot simply Hook AND Pull you every engagement. If you DO get Hooked, the Hook duration is rather short (it is much shorter than the GS #5 duration). Stability will deny the Pull.

Guardian finally has a way to engage targets and punish them for simply walking away from him so easily (as is always done against core game Guard). Let’s not QQ it right out of existence before two full weeks even pass.

EDIT: And NO…Guardian/DH CANNOT simply “one-shot” a high toughness target. Can they burst them fairly low if they land every burst skill and use all their damage utilities? Yes. Every class can if they use EVERYTHING at their disposal on one target, and not a single attack is evaded/negated.

+1 because I literally started laughing hysterically out loud at the Zojja and Logan dialogue. Couldn’t contain myself, immediately linked to all friends.

As far as the idea…it’s very ridiculous, and in some ways, no more ridiculous and inane than some of the story elements Anet has introduced to their own game. I certainly wouldn’t be into at all (which doesn’t speak for others), and myself coming from a fantasy fiction writing background, it’s almost hilariously appalling to read xD

Can’t tell if you’re serious or joking though, but either way, thank you for the laugh my friend!

INTRO

So, while explaining the differences between Guild Wars 1 and Guild Wars 2 to my fiancee, it suddenly hit me…

To my knowledge (and in my own personal experience), when there is a complaint about the Guild Wars 2 skill system it typically comes down to it being too bland. You know that the Guardian standing across from you wielding a Sword & Focus has the exact same weapon skills as the Guardian in your own party wielding a Sword & Focus. So the only thing differentiating those two (as far as the SKILL BAR itself goes) are their chosen Utilities and Elite.

Compare this with Guild Wars 1 where you could see a Warrior standing across from you wielding a Sword & Shield and using completely different sword-based skills from the Sword & Shield Warrior in your own party. The Warrior across from you may have specialized in the Swordsmanship Attribute and be wielding Swordsmanship skills focused on causing Bleed/Cripple/Deep Wound, whereas your own party’s Warrior may have focused on the Strength or Tactics line, focusing either on delivering hard hits via Strength or utilizing Blocks and Stances/Ripostes/Parries via Tactics.

There is a stark contrast in what can be done with weapons in Guild Wars 1 compared to Guild Wars 2, mostly due to the difference in skill systems between the games.

But what if we could alleviate some of the difference while expanding gameplay AND all while not destroying the current skill system at the same time?

IDEA/SUGGESTION

What if an aspect of the old Dual Profession system was brought back…so that you could choose a secondary Profession and wield the Weapon Skills (ONLY the Weapon Skills, not Utilities or Elites) of your chosen secondary class?

For example, let us say that I am a Guardian who has chosen Warrior as my secondary. Both the Guardian and the Warrior have many over-lapping weapons available to them. Let’s pretend that I wish to wield a Sword & Shield, weapons that are common to both Professions. Now, under this theoretical system, whenever I wield a weapon for which both my classes have skills, I would be able to choose which Profession’s skills I have on my bar for those weapons.

So, as a Guardian, I would have the option to either be using the:

(A.) Guardian’s 1-handed Sword Skills + Guardian Shield Skills
(B.) Guardian’s 1-handed Sword Skills + Warrior Shield Skills
(C.) Warrior’s 1-handed Sword Skills + Guardian Shield Skills
(D.) Warrior’s 1-handed Sword Skills + Warrior Shield Skills

This new system could potentially be intentionally limited to help preserve Profession weapon identities as well, simply by only allowing you to swap one of your equipped weapon’s skill sets to that of your secondary class (IE You can have either A, B, or C from the list above, but you can NEVER have D. Or in other words, one of your equipped weapons must ALWAYS be using the skill set of your main Profession, so that you can’t just be using an entire other class’s weapon set with your own Utilities + Elite slapped on).

CLOSING

Obviously this system would not be balanced in the current game. I’m not suggested something like this should just be slapped on. But imagine if the game was made this way from the start or if the weapon skills system was redesigned to implement such an idea?

In my opinion, this would bring back some much needed variety and build diversity to Guild Wars 2, particularly to the PvP side of the game (not to mention the slew of options it would open up in WvW small-scale combat encounters as well as PvE…though PvE is not difficult regardless, so the tactical variety offered by this system wouldn’t change much there unless PvE becomes more challenging).

This would bring back the Dual Profession mechanic of the first game in the form of Cross-Class Weapon Skills, it would bring variety to the gameplay (imagine seeing an Axe/Axe Warrior…but using cross class skills on his main hand…perhaps throwing the axes by using the Ranger main hand Axe skills while keeping his native Warrior off-hand axe skills!), and it would potentially spice up the game and build diversity in a great way that hearkens back to Guild Wars 1 without entirely destroying the new and separate system that Guild Wars 2 has.

I haven’t really sat and fleshed the entire post out as well as I like, and it may be a bit of a read, but thoughts anyone?

Scambug.3502:

“Just use stability to counter traps” yeah sure but do you realize how overpowered a skill is if its only counter is stability?
People need to save their stability for stomping/ressing, not to avoid OP instant death traps on 30sec CDs.
DH traps basically remove our ability to stomp/rezz, not only is that blatantly overpowered it’s also game breaking.

Traps should either do huge damage OR strong CC…not both.

You do realize there are NUMEROUS skills in this game where the only counter is dodge or Stability?

People need to use Stability for more than just TWO scenarios (stomps/rez). If they use Stability when it could prevent a Stun or a critical CC, they might find they have less issues dealing with easily avoidable traps. Stability is LITERALLY designed to COUNTER CC. Use it.

An ELITE trap SHOULD deal damage and provide CC. NONE of the other DH traps provide hard CC, only soft (Cripple, Blind). There’s no complaint to be had here. There’s an issue with people refusing to adjust their playstyle.

Guardian has next to no hard CC in their kit. Now that they finally have a hard CC skill, people are complaining out the wazoo, when there are multiple ways to avoid and counter a STATIONARY trap. Every class has universal access to dodge, access to Stability and Invuln/Teleport, and is fully capable of dealing with the very limited CC the Guardian (finally) gains by going DH.

For once, people can’t just walk away from a Guard, with the Guardian too slow to chase and too incapable of punishing them for leaving/keeping their foe engaged…except that you still literally simply walk away if you use Stability or Dodge. Traps aren’t “OP”. People are just dumb.

Changes made to Greatsword by Patch

The stated goal of the Greatsword nerf was essentially to nerf Retaliation builds. So, in order to nerf Retaliation builds the following changes were made to the Greatsword:

GS #2 Whirling Wrath: No change, still a 10sec Cooldown
GS #3 Leap of Faith: Cooldown down to 15secs from 20secs
GS #4 Symbol of Wrath: Doubled Cooldown from 10secs to 20secs

While I am mildly miffed at the rearrangement of the skill order following these changes (as weapon skills are organized in order of Cooldown on your hotbar) that is NOT my complaint.

THE PROBLEM IS HERE

The nerf to Symbol of Wrath on the Greatsword did NOT nerf Retaliation builds as intended.

The nerf to Symbol of Wrath on the Greatsword did nerf SEVERAL OTHER builds that utilized that symbol.

Breakdown of Negative Effects

Symbol of Wrath was previously on a 10 second cooldown, exactly the same as Whirling Wrath. This allowed a Greatsword Guardian to branch into several builds and varying combat options.

If you wanted to deal a hefty amount of AoE damage, then the Greatsword was your go-to weapon. Between the Symbol of Wrath and Whirling Wrath the Greatsword let the Guardian be an AoE damage-dealing machine. This simply isn’t possible like it was before, as a Guardian simply cannot get the same damage output in the same time-frame thanks to the increased cooldown.

This isn’t only about the loss of damage though. The Greatsword also provided BUILD DIVERSITY/VERSATILITY by having a symbol in it’s weapon skillset and some synergy in the Zeal trait line. Unfortunately, all symbol-based trait builds that utilized the Greatsword took a huge and UNNECESSARY hit this patch:

If you wanted to use the Symbol of Wrath as a large AoE (by traiting for increased radius) in conjuction with other Guardian AoE’s (such as Purging Flames) for great AoE damage, you could do that.

If you wanted to use the Symbol of Wrath to heal yourself/allies (by traiting for symbol healing) and thus provide AoE support, you could do that.

If you wanted to use the Symbol of Wrath primarily as a damage-dealer and way to apply Vulnerability, you could do that (by traiting into the Zeal line).

If you wanted to use the Symbol of Wrath to chain with other weapon Symbols you could do so readily, as the Greatsword symbol had a cooldown that would typically be ready to go on weapon-swap if you cycled between a Mace or a Staff as your other symbol weapon.

Basically, the Greatsword previously had a reliable AoE symbol that would be up every fight, would help with your damage output, could catch many enemies in it (if you traited for increased symbol radius), could heal yourself and allies (if you traited for symbol healing), could apply Vulnerability to foes (if you traited for that via the Zeal line), could do increased damage (again, if you traited high enough into the Zeal line), and could be chained or used in tandem with other symbols very readily.

Yeah, the Greatsword can still do those things…but now it’s every 20 seconds. In the meantime, you’re practically stuck spinning with Whirling Wrath, using Leap of Faith 5 seconds sooner than you previously would, and then auto-attacking the rest of the time while you wait for the now abhorrent cooldowns of the Greatsword’s main damage-dealing skills.

Closing/Summary

The Greatsword gave build variety and versatility. With this unnecessary nerf the Greatsword has become only a tool for finishers, and the symbol synergy it did have has been so severely hit that it’s simply not worth using the Greatsword in any symbol/AoE builds anymore. Yeah, it CAN still be done…but it’s nowhere near as fun or as effective as it used to be, and there is no reason for it to be the way it is now (especially since the nerf was supposed to be to perma-Retaliation builds!).

If Retaliation builds REALLY were the intended target, then work on Retaliation.

There is NO reason for the Symbol of Wrath cooldown to be THAT high. The nerf to the Greatsword has put a huge dent in the build variety and versatility it had previously, as well as hitting the damage and AoE ability of the weapon by more than any reasonable amount. On top of that, many symbol-boosting traits simply do NOT benefit the Greatsword like they used to, and this is a huge problem considering the Greatsword has a symbol in it’s skillset, and that the main trait line that boosts offensive symbol usage (Zeal) is tied to/provides traits to encourage Greatsword usage!

If the Symbol giving Retaliation is the problem, then simply make it give Fury or Might instead! I cannot believe that ArenaNet went through with this change without considering any of the ramifications it would have on other builds involving the Greatsword.

plasmacutter.2709:

Again, it wasn’t mindless, it was elegant.

The abilities in the weapon dovetailed well with one another and with its trait line.

Tone down the burst damage, sure! Adjust the boons and conditions it applies, sure!

Hobble it, filling it with “dead auto-swing time” and making it completely incongruous with the profession like they just did? Hell no!

You put governors on sports cars to make them street legal, you don’t wreck their suspension, fit them with square tires, or remove 4 of the gears from their transmission.

Hit the nail on the head. The way the GS was before provided for smooth and simple yet elegant gameplay. There was a natural flow or progression within the abilities of the weapon. You could force terrain and positional control since you had access to low cooldown AoE abilities (GS 2 SoW + GS 3 WW). Occasionally you can drag enemies into your AoE abilities (GS 5 BB). Now however, you not only have less build variety due to the horrendous cooldown on the SoW, but you also have less terrain and positional control of the enemy since you can no longer force enemy movement by laying down the SoW as readily.

No matter how you look at it, effectiveness, build versatility and variety, combat flow, and ability to force enemy repositioning was nerfed on GS, and without any kind of improvement, compensation, or exchange in any of those areas in return. There is no added elegance, improvement in gameplay, or other option as a tradeoff (now we can Leap more…woot). The nerf is a total negative as far as the GS goes.

Regardless of how one looks at it however, I would hope that we can all agree that the way the changes were applied (and maybe even the changes themselves) were simply not the best way to go about it all.

Hell, in just a bit of hashing around, the Guardian community has come up with very elegant solutions to the SoW change (the GS nerf) and SY! (Save Yourselves shout). Not going to rehash them here since they have been stated already in various threads and posts.

Time and again though, we get no input or response from development, no explanations (it doesn’t have to be an apology, just an explanation), and nothing other than these nerfs/changes that wind up leaving the Guardian community to hash it all out for themselves in order to come up with a solution or try to understand ANet’s methodology (which appears to be a bit all-over-the-place). In doing so, we wind up becoming divisive and cut into each other.

Not everyone is going to agree on the rationale behind every change, but I think we could at least all agree that it’d be nice to have ANet get in here and do all Guardians a favor by explaining their changes and responding to unanswered suggestions from us (Scepters, Shields, GS come to mind…)

Jalis might give you the on-demand Stability you need.

To counter any Guardian trap, it’s as simple as:

• Dodge
• Stability
• Teleport/Shadowstep

Hunter’s Ward is the Longbow #5 skill. It has a 2.75 second channel time. That is a long kitten time. If you see a Dragon Hunter channeling this skill, or if you’re getting hit by the arrows, very simply move out of the area of effect. The Ward function of that skill (the ring of chains trapping you) only takes effect if you’re in it at the end of the channel. If you think you won’t make it out of the area of effect before the Ward part hits, then give yourself Stability. You’ll be able to walk literally right through the Ward that way. If you’re trapped, you can Teleport/Shadowstep out.

Dragon’s Maw is an Elite trap skill with a 75 second cooldown, 60 seconds traited. This trap creates blue particle effects (like a swirl of 3 blue “light” tendrils) when cast. When triggered, you’ll see a giant blue dragon’s jaw appear. Once the jaws snap shut you are trapped for the duration (6 seconds). To counter this trap, you can dodge before the jaws snap shut (IE dodge through the trap, or walk into it and wait about a half a second then dodge out). There a slight delay before the jaws themselves trap you, giving you plenty of time to react and negate a full Elite skill. If you are trapped, you Teleport/Shadowstep out, or if you have Stability you can literally just walk right through the trap and ignore its effects.

That is the basic rule of thumb for all Guardian traps. Dodge, Stability, Teleport/Shadowstop.

And just because I know someone is going to ask:

Procession of Blades, Lights Judgement, Fragments of Faith counter:
Dodge, Teleport/Shadowstep, Block/Invulnerability.

Test of Faith counter:
initial damage unblockable, follow-up damage only triggers if you’re walking (or knocked/pulled) into the blade ring. Dodge through the blade ring and you’ll take NO damage. Can also be Blocked, Teleport/Shadowstep, Block/Invulnerability. I don’t recommend wasting cooldowns on Test of Faith, as if you simply remain calm and don’t freak out (like everyone in PvP does once it pops) you can simply dodge out and continue about your business.

Spear of Justice:
the Dragon Hunter F1. This skill has a 20 second cooldown (17 traited) and has a follow-up Pull that has a SEPARATE 40 second cooldown (34 traited). The Hook throw is unblockable, but can have some finnicky targeting issues. Use awkward terrain to your advantage, but don’t place yourself where you can be pulled for fall damage. Once hit, you are tethered to the Dragon Hunter and it will pulse burning periodically. This is the distinct “chain” you see between you and the Dragon Hunter. While tethered, if the Hook Pull is off of cooldown, the Dragon Hunter can activate it to pull you. Distance pulled varies based on terrain, skills being used at the time by the opponent, and other factors. Sometimes it will pull 900 range, sometimes it will only “tug” the foe maybe 150 range and cause an interrupt. As I said, the result varies. Treat it as if it will pull you 1200. If you are tethered, you need to apply Stability to yourself to deny the pull or prepare a plan of action to escape once pulled.

Yeah…this change really did kill a lot of the fun I was having with my GS Guardian as well. I’ve actually wound up shelving GW2 for a bit because of it. I simply don’t enjoy the other weapons as much as I do (or “did” rather) the GS. I’ve experimented with my Thief a bit more since the GS nerf, but I want to play my Guardian and enjoy dropping symbols and spinning with my GS.

It’s disheartening, and I wish ArenaNet would give us some kind of acknowledgement or word back on the issue. /Sigh

Edit: Null change. Was to add a new signature addition but it updated on its own.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/guardian/Patch-note-17-11/first#post5768384

Karl McLain.5604:

The true shot note was indeed intended to indicate Deflecting Shot. True Shot is definitely not slated for any unblockable state at this time. :P

You can Stability right out of the Elite trap. You dont need to port or be invuln.

EDIT: It’s misinformation like this that is gonna get a useful and engaging spec nerfed simply because people absolutely refuse to learn how to counter or play with it. DH is plenty easily destroyed, lacks sustain and is reliant upon enemies standing inside their traps (or dumping the trap on them point blank).

None of the mechanics or things here are new. People…it hasn’t even been two weeks. Let’s not axe things that don’t need to be axed…we know Anet’s patch balancing track record for nuking things out of existence and never returning to bring it back to usability.