Showing Posts For Ezpz.7612:
^yea it would be nice not to have to redo hundreds of hours of work just for a cosmetic change +1
“Why do you need a tool to judge a player’s contribution when simply playing with them and observing them should be enough?”
I can observe a player swinging a sword or casting a spell. I have no way of knowing what the actual effect of the swinging of the sword was without something to tell me “it applied a bleed” or “it crippled the enemy” or “it did X damage.” Maybe your group is continuously wiping and you need to troubleshoot what is going on to finish the dungeon. It wouldn’t be a matter of boasting but actually contributing and getting the job done.
“And I think you may have actually missed my point too; I wasn’t talking now much damage your character did but rather how much damage other player-characters did through the buffs and debuffs applied by you to your team and the enemy”
I understand. I think I responded when I said you could take everyone’s crit damage and take whatever percent what contributed by might and list it by might next to the buffs/damage component of the meter.
“And it really IS that difficult, especially if you know anything about how condition damage currently works, where all players applying bleeds for example, contribute to the overall stack.
Tell me, how do you accurately measure individual DPS in those circumstances?”
25 stacks of bleed, let’s say every player applies 5 for the sake of simplicity, just divide the damage from the 25 stacks by 5. Or if there are uneven amounts of bleeds applied just divide by whatever portion of bleed damage by the stacks that you personally contributed.
“People who focus on DPS meters are generally only interested in their own performance; but Guild Wars 2 is very much about how you perform as a team.
For example, my Warrior uses Hammer & Longbow. My direct damage is respectable, but not massive. However, on my own, through creative use of combos, I can stack 14+ stacks of might for the team quickly and efficiently. Any meter that measured my character’s DPS would not be taking into account my contribution to the team’s DPS.
My Mesmer generates lots of Chaos fields regularly that result in team members frequently getting Chaos Armor. Chaos Armor gives the bearer random boons and anyone striking them suffers random conditions. How do you accurately gauge my Mesmer’s DPS?
My Thief and Necro generate Dark fields which result in life steals for teammates using skills in them.
Do you begin to understand why simply measuring an individual’s DPS is futile when judging their overall contribution?”
Have a meter that reads “You contributed 14 stacks of might, or you gave 5 aegis protection, you applied crippled X times, you life stole this much health.” When it’s really clear mathematically like a stack of might, you can even directly say how much they helped out the group. When you’re applying aegis protection, it can say how much damage you would have taken otherwise. For cripples/daze/etc, the meter can simply record how many of those you applied. It really isn’t difficult.
“It is the opening statement of your argument. If that opening statement is patently wrong, I’m not going to comment on the rest.
In formal logic you have a premise, and out of that you deduce a conclusion. Your conclusion could potentially be right but if your premise is wrong, it doesn’t mean anything in a rational way. That’s not a strawman, that’s merely using proper logic, which I would expect from you if you are arguing to implement something as controversial as dps meters.”
1. You never addressed my response that what you believed to be my premise was not even my premise. 2. What you say about formal logic is only true if the premises are dependent on each other, which they are not, since each premise independently proves the conclusion. For example, let me demonstrate. Suppose the conclusion is, “the government should legalize X drug.” You could have two arguments: 1. “The government does not have the constitutional power to prohibit X drug.” and 2. “The government, even if it had the power to prohibit X drug, should not do so because it has harmful consequences.” Even if argument 1 were incorrect, argument 2 would still prove the conclusion. Hope that helps. And please don’t end with the ad hominem, it detracts from your argument.
Ok in bed now but will write up two more quick replies:
1. Against the concern that the meter wouldn’t actually track buffs: “I’ve never seen a “DPS meter” that accurately measures my contributions like applying and maintaining group-wide 16 stacks of might or maintaining 80% uptime fury across the team (because frankly 20%+ of your crit damage belongs to ME under those conditions when judging DPS done…).”
It’d actually be really easy – look at amount of crit damage done, take twenty percent of that, multiply by the uptime, and list that as the contribution under the buffs section of the meter.
2. Against the idea that culture would change: “With meters easily available for DPS (as well as healing, stuns, and whatever), it will encourage people to enforce a minimum skill/gear level. So, for instance, it might be that you need a minimum of 5k DPS (or 5 stuns per minute, or 3000 healing done per 10 seconds, or something like that) to do CoE.” “TLDR: DPS meter will change GW2 dungeon-going culture to what people don’t like.”
There’s already a super easy accessible way to check and enforce a minimum: right now it’s happening with gear, i.e. ping X gear or get kicked. A minimum of do X dps or get kicked would not be any different than the gear requirements that already exist. If you make those people care about performance instead that’s an improvement over the status quo. As for the people who don’t care about gear right now, they’re not gonna care about whether you’re minmaxing your dps build either even if they have to tools to find out, cause they have the tools to find your gear right now and don’t care.
Three replies to Vayne whose posts I have really appreciated on this thread then to bed for me:
“Evasion skills or blinding skills, won’t show up on a DSP meter, nor will they really show up on any kind of meter.”
Blinds applied, attacks evaded are both meters that should be added. If I could change the thread title from DPS meter to just meters that measure all aspects of game performance, I would.
“It won’t make damage less important, it will make damage more important, because in people’s heads it will become even more important.”
I don’t see why that would be the case, if there were 10 different meters, and dps were only one of them.
and finally “I should mention I used a parser (which is what you’re asking for) in Rift when I played it, and it pretty much destroyed any enjoyment of that game for me.”
Thank you for realizing that I’m asking for a parser unlike a pure dps meter like 10 other people on this thread. That said, I’m not sure how knowing how many attacks you’ve dodged, how much damage you’ve taken, etc take the enjoyment out of the game for you, especially since you would be able to turn it off in this implementation.
That’s all for now folks, I’ll come back to this thread later. Thanks for the contributions everyone, even the repetitive posts.
Thank you for being the first one after about twenty posts to actually engage the meat of the original post. That said, I don’t think the response made is going to be true.
“People would still request you to post your gears and kick you out if you don’t have what they want. We’ve all seen that this happens in other games with DPS meter. It’d be just that extra elitism it brings – you’d be kicked out later for not having enough DPS in case you do stop to res someone.”
First off, I’ve given arguments why people would not care about gear if they had access to dps because gear is only POTENTIAL dps but dps done in the past is actual dps. But even if this were true, having an official link to your past performance would fix this issue, as it can legitimize your claims.
In response to: “Just because some people currently enforce this execrable group culture doesn’t mean we should whole-heartedly embrace it.
In other words, just because some people vehemently say something is so, it doesn’t make them right. Like the Flat Earth society or Creationists.”
We wouldn’t be whole-heartedly embracing it, we would be creating a tool with uses completely independent of their purposes, while giving them quantitative evidence that they are incorrect.
“I find amusing how popular belief leads ppl to take for granted that Full Berserker is the higher DPS build when almost all Full berserker players stays 50% or more of the time in downed state.
In this game we should be looking for the highest DP10S instead of the highest DPS.”
For the fifth time, the meters should include accurate metrics such as time spent in downed state and active dps across entire fight rather than just when you are dpsing. This is the last time I will be responding to this argument until something actually new is said.
In response to “I also think DPS meter belongs to games with Trinity system.
In general we don’t want people to focus only to DPS. I’m willing to say it’d be good in places like Cof1 where your survival is dependent on your DPS, but in general dungeons I’d rather see people ressing than casting just whatever that makes the DPS meter go a little bit higher.” and “skills > dps. So why do you want to measure an inferior thingy? Because skills are not measurable?”
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Already been answered twice in this thread, once at the bottom of the second post, and once with the seventh post on this page. Please at least read responses to arguments already made before you make the same argument 3 people made before you.
Vayne, thank you for the response – I’ll respond to the parts of your post that pertain to the introduction of a dps meter only, but I do think what you’re saying about sPvP is true and should be fixed.
“I’ve spent ages explaining to people that DPS is only one aspect of play. Singling out that aspect and making it all important, such as by making it the only real aspect of play you can really track, sends the wrong message to the community.” and “A DPS meter is a red-herring. You, OP, may know this. But most people won’t. Introduction of a DPS meter will give them the completely wrong idea.”
I responded to this halfway done the page, and have now edited the OP part two second post to state that this meter would not only track DPS but other relevant statistics.
“Already we see people saying warriors and zerker gear are the only way to be in PvE. It’s not true. It’s not fair. It’s not fun and it shouldn’t exist. Part of the blame for this must go to Anet.”
An argument literally NO ONE in this entire page has responded to is that if people are saying warriors and zerker gear are the only way to be in PvE, then the introduction of meters can ONLY serve to fix it. When you see that thief can dps as much as a warrior, or when the healing/buffs given meter calls attention to how good the ele you had in your group was, that’s the only way to fix the problem. The people who are excluding will continue to exclude. The people who aren’t won’t all of a sudden start. All this proposal does is give you a way to measure yourself, and give people who perform well but have unconventional classes/gear to show the elitists that their assumptions about the game are incorrect.
I like – and buy – the argument that a lot more goes into the game than just dps. I’d be totally okay with the meter also including relevant metrics such as damage taken, healing done, interrupts done, (EDIT: players revived, buffs given are also good metrics to have on a meter) etc. Recognize, however, that the argument simply means that there should be other meters as well, NOT that there should not be a dps meter.
(edited by Ezpz.7612)
“I wholeheartedly agree. If a DPS meter was put in place the first thing that would happen is cookie cutter builds, and then selective classes for dungeons. I personally like the chance to enter a dungeon with any ol random group of people.”
“There is no need for a dps meter in this game. There are no specialized “trinity-like” classes, and any instance can be done with any mix of classes. All a DPS meter will do is make people get all wrapped up in something that’s not necessary, and add a level of work/pressure to the game that is inversely proportional to fun.
If you’re really into needing to see those numbers, GW2 is not the game for you. There are others out there with DPS meters – I recommend those.”
I’m just going to lump these responses together because they’re essentially the same issue. You guys are arguing that certain classes will be excluded from runs because of having dps, but you never actually consider the argument that right now those classes are ALREADY excluded (don’t believe me? just go on GW2LFG and look at all the LF4M berserker warrior ping ascended gear or kick posts). With a meter, people who don’t have the best class/gear but can still do their job now have a chance to group with those elitists, and the people who don’t care about what gear/class their party members right now aren’t going to all of a sudden become elitist about dps. This is the last time I will be making this argument until an actual response is made to it. Thanks everyone for your thoughts.
I do not agree with this, because fundamentally GW2 is NOT focused on gear progression, which makes it unlike most MMOs.
With that, your entire argument falls apart.
First off, it’s just untrue that the entire premise of all my arguments are based on the idea that GW2 is focused on gear. It’s simply a strawman argument you’re knocking down here – my point is that people like to see themselves perform better, regardless of whether that’s because of gear or because they improved their skills or because they tried out a new trait setup. And that to deny those people the ability to optimize their dps is unfair to them, even if you yourself do not buy into their mindset. I also listed two other impacts that you completely don’t address: that groups should be able to set criteria for whom they voluntarily associate with (and that this is ALREADY the practice with gear) and that the dps meter actually SOLVES for elitism because instead of people being denied based on gear, they’re now denied based on dps, which is better for reasons explained in the OP.
Furthermore, I can’t see this being optional. It’s either DPS on or kick. When on it’s minimal this dps or kick. Nothing good can come from this. I don’t want this game to have cookie cutter builds and rotations, because skills offer so much more than mere dps.
Right now those people are saying ping full berserker exotics or kick. I’ve already explained why it would be better for those people to say ping X amount of dps or kick, because now people with not optimal gear but good dps are included. It seems that your problems with a dps meter are worse without a meter than with it.
My third argument responds to concerns of elitism, how having a dps meter could lead to people with lower dps being excluded from groups. I contend that this elitism already exists in the status quo, except currently people are being denied spots based on gear rather than dps. What does this proposal solve? Recognize that gear right now serves two purposes: it tells group makers how much potential dps you can pull, and it serves as proxy for how good you are at the game (people who have better gear -tend- to be better at dps, but that’s not always the case. However, it’s certainly a useful metric – a person with 2 infused fotm rings is more likely to be better than a person with two green ones, by virtue of their having cleared fotm up to level 26). No one cares though about how much POTENTIAL dps you can pull; they want to know how much ACTUAL dps you will pull. Pinging good gear means you MIGHT put up good numbers, pinging good numbers means you certainly put up good numbers. So the so-called elitists (who often have legitimate reasons for wanting well-geared party members) now will exclude people based on dps rather than gear. People can now link dps meters and say, “well, I might not have 5 ascended pieces of gear, but I pulled as much dps as you said you were looking for on lfg.” This means people who before were being DENIED spots based on gear are now earning spots based on their skill. People who were getting spots based on gear might now not be based on their skill. This is definitely preferable to the status quo in my eyes, for two reasons. 1. I think if “elitism” is going to exist either for gear or for dps, you should normatively prefer the one that is based on how good a player is rather than the amount of time he spends on the game. 2. The numbers of players excluded will be far fewer – how many people with all infused ascended gear do you know suck at dps? Whatever that number is, I think it’s a lot less than people in only rares/exotics who know how to play and would perform up to par.
The final group of responses I’ll handle right now include the following: TL;DR, You made X grammar error that invalidates your entire post, umadbro. I know how the Internet works. To you people, actually talk about the content or kindly get the kitten out (kittens need walks sometimes).
Thanks all for your thoughts in advance!
EDIT: A lot of people are making the argument that dps meters shouldn’t exist because dps isn’t the only way to contribute to a group. I like – and buy – the argument that a lot more goes into the game than just dps. I’d be totally okay with the meter also including relevant metrics such as damage taken, healing done, interrupts done, players revived, buffs given, etc. Recognize, however, that the argument simply means that there should be other meters as well, NOT that there should not be a dps meter.
(edited by Ezpz.7612)
EDIT: So many people are missing the edit at the bottom of my next post I’ll just make it the first thing that shows up here. I have used the words dps meter throughout these next two post. Anytime I say dps meter, I also mean amount of health revived meter, healing done meter, dodges meter, buffs given meter, debuffs applied meter – essentially a complete picture of what people contribute in dungeons. A dps meter would be only one facet of the overall implementation.
I think that gw2 should implement a dps meter. Two things I want to establish about this meter before I continue: 1. You will be able to choose who can see it, whether it be your entire party, just yourself, or no one. 2. You will be able to link dps from previous encounters.
My first argument is that gw2 is ultimately a game focused on self-progression, like most MMOs. Part of this progression is being able to identify your dps going up, either from getting better gear or becoming better at your rotation / choosing a more optimal trait setup and such. Yes, you can see your numbers as you hit and how they’re going up. It might be true that you can sort of tell how much stronger you’re getting because of gear. It might also be true that you can tell between the damage of trait setups when the difference is obvious.
That’s not good enough. There are different trait setups for classes where the dps difference is not that noticeable (and it’s a testament to how lacking my knowledge of my own damage abilities as a result of the absence of a meter is that I don’t know how much “not that noticeable” equates to). The problem is, not that noticeable does not mean negligible. For higher end difficult content, (FoTM 40+, Arah) having that extra dps would certainly help. I will also note the added benefit to the game of helping out min-maxers. You might not agree with their philosophy that you should try optimal gear/build setups, but you should at least allow them the chance to actualize their own preferences in the game rather than denying them that opportunity.
My second argument is based on a philosophy of group interaction. I think it’s fair that if you don’t want your group knowing how much dps you’re doing that you should be able to withhold that information. I also think it’s fair for groups that want to optimize their composition to be able to choose people based on their dps. Again, I think in difficult content, this is warranted, and also in dungeon farming where extra dps means more runs and thus more gold. A group that ultimately desires people who can do great dps should not be forced to include those who don’t meet their standards because the UI doesn’t allow them to access relevant information, especially when there are legitimate reasons for doing so (For those of you worried about the elitism this could lead to, I’ll respond to it further down). I’ll take a second here to note that this is ALREADY the approach taken by ArenaNet with regard to pinging gear: you can volunteer that information or you can choose to withhold it, but likewise groups are able to pick whom they want based on the decision to withhold or volunteer information.
(edited by Ezpz.7612)
Would it be possible to allow users to switch between two sets of traits, one for each build? Maybe have it cost a couple gold or gems even. Would allow for some flexibility without having to go to a trainer to every time you wanted to switch.
General concept: 30/30/0/0/10
Pros: You get +300 power, +300 precision, +30% critical hit damage, +16% damage from having your mantras up (Empowering Mantras), 4 mantras to cast 3 times each (Harmonious Mantras) before they run out: recovery, concentration, distraction (applies vulnerability because of Dazzling), and resolve (pain isn’t super useful because you want to have it up most of the time anyway for an extra 4% damage, limiting its use).
Cons: You’re pretty squishy, you lose utility skills, and you’re missing some traits for your illusions.
Weapons: I went with greatsword and sword/sword since I already invested in swords and having a short phantasm cooldown was nice, but sword/focus, pistol, and torch all have their merits.
Do you guys think this build is viable? It’s interesting because in this build you’re doing a lot more of the damage yourself.