Showing Posts For Forgetful Phil.6370:
I think while it is fine that fans of respective meta/comps argue about who will win, there is a major difference in how the teams actually portray their opinions in public (as seen from their popular streamers).
Abjured;
OE: “I just wanna have a blast who cares”
Phantaram: “I am confident in my team and think we can win, but TCG has exceptionally skilled players so who knows what might happen”
Caed: “TCG is very good, maybe we win, maybe we don’t. We’ll see”TCG;
Sizer “Lol NA is trash just look at their keybinds Caed spread shift 1 cancer Ostrich Eggs uses F keys rofl no way they are gonna beat us. I got a strat that will 100% beat them roflol OMG MID DODGEROLL”
Helseth “NA is so bad, they wouldn’t be able to beat a single EU comp without a guardian (Ignores that Cheese Mode won ToL without a guard)”The difference in public attitudes is astounding, and its no wonder the games pvp community is as toxic as it is with their most dominant role models constantly trashtalking everyone publically.
Final thing that’s left to say, since both teams put in extreme amounts of practice, why not just wait and see what happens? It’s gonna be really entertaining anyways, no matter who you root for.
Also, this one guy saying NA needs to l2p without Celestial cheese comps when Abjured uses one more Cele amulet than every other (EU) team (two elementalists compared to clerics guardian and elementalist combo). Funny.
Got a source/link for the TCG quotes?
What about Vee Wee – #1 Engi NA and worlds first rank 80?
The problem with telling people what to do is that you are telling them what to do.
There’s a saying I picked up as my last job as a QA.
“A manager tells people what to do. A leader tells them how to do it.”
Instead of saying, “do this.”
Try, “this is the goal, and this is how you obtain it.”
and a good employee does it without being told.
We can go round and round
Not trying to be an kitten here or anything, but IMO you’ve got it a bit wrong. You’re looking at how easy it is to become good at a spec, but really you should be looking at how good a spec is relative to other specs.
I see where you’re heading: the game should encourage layered, deep specs, not faceroll ones, but what makes a build ‘overpowered’ is when a spec achieves too much for the sacrifices it makes (in other words, it has minimal counterplays relative to its performance). Tbh, I think this is probably what you’re getting at with your last graph and possibly through the vague use of the word “efficiency”, but I dont think time is really relevant – being overpowered really just means being able to achieve too much relative to other classes. Builds that are a diagonal line, but have a peak “efficiency” much higher than any other build, would also be OP undoubtedly.
This is also why games should balance around top players by comparing the peak efficiency (if you like) of different builds, and seek to educate the worse players to bring them up to that peak. A good example of this is the thief class. At low rankings, thieves are abysmal and a detriment to the team. At the top of the leaderboards thieves are to some extent defining the meta and pushing other classes out. You wouldn’t want to balance the class for mid or lower tier players cause you’d buff them ridiculously for the top players, hence whether it’s OP or not should really be independent of time, and only focussed on the maximum “efficiency” possible.
A healthy game will actually have classes / builds that are easy to pickup to do fairly well for beginners, but also have complex, deep specs that will dominate these builds when played very well. So both types of build you’ve outlined are important. Although not perfect, GW1 was much closer to balance than GW2 because although certain builds (IWAY, Trap rangers, Bloodspike, Thumpers etc) were easy and rolled inexperienced teams, balanced builds would always win if they were coordinated enough.
Needs a bit more work to bring in line – atm has a bit too much of everything. But I hope they don’t nerf it to the point of it being uncompetitive. I actually quite like the idea of a CC heavy spec; it’s one of the few builds in the meta that really punishes poor positioning / overextending in a game with far too many teleports / gap closers. Reminds me of the warrior linebackers in GW1
I main theif but play several other classes. My thoughts on PW are that it’s strong, perhaps OP in certain situations, but not nearly as OP as people on the forum make out.
Conceptually, I like PW and S/P by extension – I like having a spec that has access to a stun, daze and persistent blind field. It’s a very rounded set (whether it’s too rounded I’m not too sure) with good potential to be useful in team fights. This isn’t really the case with other specs such as D/D or S/D which are more 1v1 orientated.
I don’t personally run S/P in spite of all this because I find it lacks the depth that D/P has, and something I don’t think non theif mains always appreciate, is that it is very reliant on certain skills to actually be useful. In isolation PW, I think, is fairly lacklustre – without any gap closing skills no decent player will get PW’d unless they’re out of cool downs or extremely unlucky. If they do get hit, and the thief has steal, infiltrators signet, and basilisk (or really any 2 of the 3 up, not to mention shadowstep if you really want to go there), it’s basically GG. I think the synergy with these skills is probably a bit too much given these are pretty much staple skills. With these skills it allows PW to be reliably spammed, which is when it becomes OP. Another similar scenario is when someone is ressing, if you’ve got a PW thief sitting on you, more than likely you’ll fail the res, and often you’ll go down too. Without these skills and circumstances though, PW itself is pretty mediocre.
I think the real issue with PW is that it dominates classes / builds with few or long cool down stunbreaks (ele). It’s partly a problem with overall class balance that PW is performing so well. That said, I think PW could be brought in line by removing the evade – although this only allows better peeling, the damage taken by classes with infrequent access to stunbreaks would still be the same. Or personally, I think the damage should be spread over a longer period with the total damage kept the same, and the evade duration kept the same or shortened. This would allow better mitigation of the damage in general once the stun has worn off. You could lower the stun duration alternatively but it’d reduce the teamfight potential of the set.
I’m not pro, but those are my thoughts
(edited by Forgetful Phil.6370)
OK when did I say he was one and we were 2? The only thing you could have guessed from my post that it was the other way around, because I said I switched to other foe. But actually it was 2v2.
Next. What this has to do about holding a point and fighting against thief 1v1? So what if he didn’t hold the point? That’s not the point of this thread.
Next. This is addressing people saying that if thief is using stealth he is doing it wrong. I’m not saying thief is using stealth for the sake of stealthing. He was using it when he needed it and he used it only defensively – to cleanse conditions, regen initiative and heal himself. So you are saying that it’s better for thief to die and respawn than go in stealth for 3/4 seconds, refresh himself and then strike again with full power?.. I don’t get such logic.
And for some people saying that stealth is not OP, I created thief just out of curiosity and tried it out. And was not surprised how powerful thief felt (at least compared with ranger as that is the profession I’m playing – not the spirit ranger though), and especially stealth. I could do all I wanted and if I get in disadvantage I could just disengage, or wait out in stealth to strike again and kill easily. And I’m not experienced playing with thief at all. So I can only imagine how experienced thieves can use stealth at their advantage.
I said he was two and you were one actually. Irrespective, if they were stealthing that much and taking as much damage as you say, they had minimal impact on the 2v2 fight.
Ok… I don’t know how long you’ve been around, but this game isn’t balanced around 1v1, it’s balanced around 5v5 conquest. The reason why I bring up points is because that’s how Anet tries to balance the theif – high damage and good escape tools, but can’t hold a point. That’s the tradeoff. The game isn’t balanced 1v1, so this thread won’t give you any answer you’ll be happy with
It was a bit different, I was trying to kill him on mid point. He had like half health. Got him to very low health, then he vanished in stealth, I switched to other foe, then when he came back, he was almost full health. Then I switched back on him, got him to low health again. He started running away from mid point, I chased him down a bit, then he came back on me and we fought 1v1, I got him again on very low health, he used shadow refugee then came back full health again and finished me. I didn’t have any evades or defensive skills left.
And yes he was bunker build, if you can call him that.
The point is every time he got into stealth, he would heal very fast and there was nothing you could do to stop that.
Not sure I’m following your argument.
You’re complaining that a “bunker” thief heals too much, despite the bunker thief loosing a 2v1 at mid and frequently stealthing so it can’t hold a point. Clearly the spec is redundant. But I suppose you’re playing to stomp, not to win.
There are a lot of things about thief that are on the OP side, this isnt one of the them.
So presumably from your post the thief is running hide in shadows (30s cooldown) and so for you to force a heal three times, the fight went on for at least 1.5 mins. Something doesnt sound right there…
Most thief fights are short duration – either you die, they’ll die, or if they’ll focus their attention on something more efficient. So either the theif you were playing wasn’t playing decently (you should have won), or the you’re playing a bunkery spec (you shouldn’t expect to win 1v1s). Either way it doesn’t add up.
Also if you’re playing in soloQ or teamQ and had a completely uninteruptted 1v1 for 1.5 mins + i’d be surprised. There’s no way far or mid point could have been uninteruptted for 1.5 mins, so it was probably close you were playing at, which means you were holding point for the whole duration of the fight and gained 90 points in that time while the theif contributed zero points to his team score.
Of course you could be playing hot join, but then you’d be even less likely to have a 1v1 and it really isnt a measure of what is balanced
14. “Just dodge”