Guild Wars 2

STRanger.5120:

Just delete the Thief completely and give me another class with equal equipment and game progress, I´m really getting sick of these non-sense arguments of ppl who have no idea how to play thief/play against it….
This whole forum is ruined by crying ppl, who expected another WoW-like game. Please leave and never look back, we like GW2, we don´t want anything like the above mentioned “crappy-mechanic/system” game. Thanks….

If it makes you feel any better I am tired of morons joining in on threads without actually reading more than 50% of the 1st post, HAD you you would have read thieves are not an issue for me, the idea about breaking stealth changed, and probably the other 70% of the game’s population wouldn’t care if the class were removed.

And if you really are defending it is a fair class to be the only one able to spike damage without someone being able to have a sign to dodge it, you are just another bad BS thief playing FotM.

DesertRose.2031:

God Sealer.4103:

Scepter/Dagger, Dagger/Dagger has just as much burst, if not more than a backstab thief. If you are roaming around with a staff, your own fault. The fact you can’t see them is the issue, there damage is ON PAR with other classes burst specs.

D/D: Ride the Lightning->Updraft->Burning Speed
S/D: Dragon tooth->Phoenix->Fire Grab. 3 Moves, just as there combo, will do the same if not more damage, only difference is you’re visable. Thus stealth is the kitten puppy hampster chupacabra issue!

The difference between those combos and the BS combo is that those have huge visual clues telling you “Dodge now or get hurt badly”. The only visual clue the BS combo gives you is that the Thief swings the other arm.
Stealth is an entirely other matter.

God Sealer.4103:

And jumping back up a few posts no one has ever been 1 shotted by backstab, you got one shotted by the mug/backstab/heartseeker/CD combo that yes gets pulled off most of the time before they render.

And everyone who keeps coming in saying backstab does too much damage, also circles it back to the main point, it’s being able to do that damage while invisible.

Elementalist: Dragon Fang/Phoenix big damage, only hit’s you if you don’t take 2 steps to the left.
Warrior: 100B, Only gets you if you don’t take 2 steps back. Whirlwind, Dodge roll into them.
Mesmer: Greatsword burst, Only gets you if you don’t move in on them.
Necromancer: …umm, if they burst you break disc and uninstall?
Engineer: Move out of the red ring with the fuse in the middle or move left 2 steps when flying objects are raining at you.
Thieves: Hope you have the right utilities and HP to survive the burst that they have to wait about ~40seconds to pull off again.

See the problem?

EVERY Class has a burst move that is reliable, sorry Necros guess you aren’t a real class yet, the issue is that thieves are the ONLY class that has one that there is no way to dodge it, and even if you do they are stealthed before you can begin a counter.

So, as said, stealth has NO place in a game with this design of combat, but since it’s here if definately needs a few tweaks, IMO the only real thing that needs to be done with it is being able to see them, ghostly image, bloodtrail, number trail, when they are being hit in stealth, as you can pound AOE’s to your hearts desire but any good thief is just going to walk around it and get your back again, without you knowing where they are at.

Sum up, BACKSTAB DAMAGE IS FINE! Before you cry about getting 1shot read your combat log. IT’S ALL ABOUT THE STEALTH.

Covered that aspect a few posts up.

hellfish.6740:

God Sealer.4103:

hellfish.6740:

Backstab isn’t fine. Neither is stealth. Both skills need to be nerfed to the ground.

What profession you play?

Elem

Scepter/Dagger, Dagger/Dagger has just as much burst, if not more than a backstab thief. If you are roaming around with a staff, your own fault. The fact you can’t see them is the issue, there damage is ON PAR with other classes burst specs.

D/D: Ride the Lightning→Updraft→Burning Speed
S/D: Dragon tooth→Phoenix→Fire Grab. 3 Moves, just as there combo, will do the same if not more damage, only difference is you’re visable. Thus stealth is the kitten puppy hampster chupacabra issue!

It only really became a debate when the uneducated few popped in without reading combat logs or got hit while had frenzy up. Other than that it was pretty constructive.

Edit: And I have also stopped reading posts right when I see, “I wear Berserker.” as they just enforce my point of who is the main mass crying about the damage itself and not the utilities associated.

If they buffed the toughness and healing ratios to be on par with powers then nothing would need nerfs due to spike damage, feel free to correct but pretty sure for most cases power is 1:2 damage/power where healing is 1:10, and the toughness/defense equation is just a borked mitigation equation where pretty sure it’s the same 1:10 reduction/toughness as to healing.

From what I’ve seen they say the culling issue will be fixed, however everytime they’ve messed with it so far it just gets worse.

And jumping back up a few posts no one has ever been 1 shotted by backstab, you got one shotted by the mug/backstab/heartseeker/CD combo that yes gets pulled off most of the time before they render.

And everyone who keeps coming in saying backstab does too much damage, also circles it back to the main point, it’s being able to do that damage while invisible.

Elementalist: Dragon Fang/Phoenix big damage, only hit’s you if you don’t take 2 steps to the left.
Warrior: 100B, Only gets you if you don’t take 2 steps back. Whirlwind, Dodge roll into them.
Mesmer: Greatsword burst, Only gets you if you don’t move in on them.
Necromancer: …umm, if they burst you break disc and uninstall?
Engineer: Move out of the red ring with the fuse in the middle or move left 2 steps when flying objects are raining at you.
Thieves: Hope you have the right utilities and HP to survive the burst that they have to wait about ~40seconds to pull off again.

See the problem?

EVERY Class has a burst move that is reliable, sorry Necros guess you aren’t a real class yet, the issue is that thieves are the ONLY class that has one that there is no way to dodge it, and even if you do they are stealthed before you can begin a counter.

So, as said, stealth has NO place in a game with this design of combat, but since it’s here if definately needs a few tweaks, IMO the only real thing that needs to be done with it is being able to see them, ghostly image, bloodtrail, number trail, when they are being hit in stealth, as you can pound AOE’s to your hearts desire but any good thief is just going to walk around it and get your back again, without you knowing where they are at.

Sum up, BACKSTAB DAMAGE IS FINE! Before you cry about getting 1shot read your combat log. IT’S ALL ABOUT THE STEALTH.

First of all, I play a Bunker Engineer, burst classes don’t really phase me, only time a BS rogue has got me 1v1 I was fine with it as he had to work for it.

Second, was simply throwing the 3 main things I was seeing the general consensus on throughout forums, Lions Arch, and WvW chat.

Third, you are right, Wraithforge.8710, that is my general feeling, as well and like you said there are many others who would agree that the invisibility factor doesn’t belong in a game with these kind of mechanics. However, part of the issue people are stating is it isn’t something as simple as you see the thief coming, he stealths, and wanders behind you, second he’s in range for a shadowstep you go defensive or you die, which is fine, but the main issue behind it is the survivability of stealth mixed with the potential damage you can throw out.

I do disagree 100% when saying they are going for the long term goal with there patching, thus far at the least. Long term would be getting the classes all working properly before trying to balance them out, nerfing, buffing, etc.

And you can go back to the argument that Devs know better than me, not a designer, (If went to, or are currently at Full Sail, you opinion is voided.) but for those who have played MMO’s for years just look back and think, or actually do the research as I am not going to do it for you, but all of them killed themselves the same way of trying to revamp the game before it was even working properly.

It’ll happen, just take a few years like in GW1, should have been that way at launch.

Sum it all up, there were many posts that could have gone in a good way, but the whiners of the thieves derailed them and wanted the cake and eat it too. Pretty much you had to pick your poison, could have gone down the route of losing damage, or gone down the path of lower survival. And for some reason in all these games it is only the rogue class that kills itself with this. Due to this your fate has been left with the dev team, which thus far has shown it is going to nerf to quite the masses rather than skim through whines looking for fixes.

Backstabs damage was never an issue, the only people whining about it were other glass canons who couldn’t get there burst off first, or the warrior that got mug+BSed while he was frenzied. Every person who came onto the forums complaining, "I have 1500+ toughness and it crit me for OVER 9000!!! Yet no one called them out that they don’t have a clue on the mitigation equations.

Thieves damage is fine, stealth need tweaked, traps need buffed, poisons need buffed, pistols need buffed.

Now watch with the bold, of the list, someone will poke there head in and jump on the one thing on that list that might be a nerf other than the positives, and thus is how you dug your own grave. All of the bold is true, btw.

Okay, okay… going to dumb this down so it makes sense why stealth needs a tweak. This game does not support the trinity effect. Trinity for those who don’t know is designated tank, healer, and dps.
Playing this game like any other MMO will give you major problems, which is probably why people are crying thinking they can tank and spank there way through everything.

Stealth completely destroys the concept of how the game works, backstab flat out is massive damage, as it should be, but how the game is designed is you are supposed to be able to avoid massive damage, via dodge rolling, blocking, etc. Which you cannot currently with how stealth is.

Face the facts, an untrained chimp can play a backstab rogue, F1, 1, 2, 5, 1, 2, 5. Throw in a dodge here and there.

The problem is that with culling issues, most of the time that combo is done and you never even popped up. Any thief who says stealth is balanced odds are uses it for hit and runs or griefing capture points.

The fact that of all the posts I’ve read on your forums shows that 90% of you want this games pvp to be like WoW’s in vanilla where rogues were wrecking balls, “Well since they are nerfing backstab, they need to make this spec overpowered instead.”

FotM, Flavor of the Month, is what you guys are now, congrats. Mesmers got nerfed near the start where they couldn’t burst you in a single knockdown, so those kids rolled thieves or GS Guardians, then GS Guardians got nerfed, so they all went to Thieves or GS Warriors. People can whine QQ, don’t nerf all they want, but when you have 90% of a class that don’t know what they are doing and rolling over people with broken mechanics, of course they are going to nerf it. Then those people move on to the next FotM.
Welcome to the world of MMO’s. Once again, Engineer, ask me how getting blind sided with the Juggernaut nerf was, or them taking have condition durations from pistols due to this same thing.

With all the kids popping up on every post whining how thieves aren’t ridiculous I am glad you might get nerfed into the ground, then they will leave and the people who actually know how to play the class without abusing mechanics will be able to get it working right again.

TL;DR.
Stealth only works in Trinity, too many kids playing same spec in your class, Devs are balancing based on statistics and because nerfing is a lot easier than balancing.

To all the thieves who know how to play, wish you the best, to the kids who are apparently new to MMO’s and not used to the FotM class getting nerfed, get used to it.

Anyone who thinks stealth is balanced, go back to WoW, EQ2, Aion, Whatever tank and spank you came from, because the skill does need tweaked to have a place in this game with how the mechanics work.

Edit: Stealth being tweaked as in giving a sign of where they are at if you land a hit on them, EVERYTHING else with stealth is culling on their end.

First, toughness doesn’t mean jack in any equation, total armor is mitigation, you could have 1700 toughness but only 2k armor…see the thing there?

And yes if you read that’s where the issue is, with the survivability of the broken stealth mechanic, which it’s about 20% to do with stealth and 80% culling issue ANet claims to be fixing. Flat out stealth is a trinity ability that doesn’t belong in this game, but since it is already here, rather than making thieves hit like noodles, fix it at the source.

1/2 a second of seeing you as you appear on your screen seems better, ghostly image, gives just enough time to have a general idea if they’re going fight or flight, and lets the thief know he needs to reroute if he’s smart. 50% harder is a tad to extreme for something so squishy. Although that debuff should be placed on yours and mesmers quickness like everyone elses, but different discussion, different time.

Fact of the matter is stealth itself is a busted mechanic for this game, they say you’re supposed to stay active, avoid being hit, but can’t do that when the guy is invis. Do I mind stealth? No. I am smart enough to not run around in Berserker so backstabs usually only get me for 2500 tops. So if you factor the numbers, 2500/~4(stealth debuff, global cooldown, cast time) , looking at a ballpark of 700dps on good rolls.

The only thing irritating is mainly culling issues with stealth, and the fact can get at least 2000 away while stealthed.

Edit: And stealthed finishers, if I had to get Juggernaut nerfed because of that, you shouldn’t be able to do it either!

Asum.4960:

They get pwned by a Engeneer (a way stronger class than Thief), whatever, maybe next time i will do better.

I lol’d with this one, other 2 yeah you can use the comparison, Go from playing a 2-3 button mashing class like warriors, thieves, and mesmers, then you go play an engineer where you have about 15 things to be working through when situations arise.

Case and point that this is currently the FotM class and once the baddies reroll after the nerf the actual good thieves will be around for when it levels back out.

It’s the stealth that’s broken, and 90% of that is ANets fault.

1) Play an Engineer so not a biased opinion.
2) The main issue I see people complaining about along with the damage is the rendering issues causing what appears to be a permanent stealth state.
3) Sub issues on the topic is that damage doesn’t break stealth and it removes all conditions.
Simple fix and I don’t understand why they are going to butcher thieves, everyone will be happy except the bad ones that are on your class right now as it’s the FotM after Guardian GS nerf.

Make damage break stealth, make the stealth heal roulette which condition it heals rather than all of them. Leave the damage alone. Someone wants to run around in Berserker’s gear and all offensive utilities/traits, they deserve to get dropped in 3 seconds, as they sure don’t complain when they are on the end that’s delivering the burst.
Edit: Oh yeah and fix the rendering issue.

Flamethrowers don’t discriminate on stacks of 30 people popping up, it’s fun.

They should implement that, would be amazing.

TL;DR, Match was a lot of fun till you guys couldn’t step up and win fairly, turtling is funny though, like wandering into the apocalypse, only its after you die you start seeing the demons in the sky.