(edited by Golby.5348)
Showing Posts For Golby.5348:
Your argument is a slippery slope, which by definition is a logical fallacy.
dial back the forum debate olympics and i’ll take you seriously
we know that spinal shivers was never unblockable. the tooltip was changed in the specialization update to say that it was blockable. a bug report was filed noting that it was not actually unblockable. arenanet’s decision, rather than to fix the reported bug that prevented spinal shivers from being unblockable was to decide retroactively that the tooltip and patch note was incorrect, not the functionality
but seriously dude, why don’t you chill out and go take your necro to the spvp esports scene or whatever where you claim it’s viable if it’s so kitten good
show me all those top tier pve necromancers that dnt is using
obviously it’s a victim complex and necros need to get good despite the best players in the world saying it’s trash, right?
in before “you used top level play as a metering statistic therefore you’re doing THE AUTHORITY FALLACY” or whatever because arguing semantics is easier than arguing facts
The argument from authority is also flawed as well unless you have one omnipotent authority that cannot lie, so you’re right, lets not even talk about that.
I must say though, I have little interest in PvE due to the reptition involved, but even I can name a PvE necro that knows whats up.
And like I said, most of us won’t do speedclears, so is it really a big deal to play necromancer, even though its not considered optimal? If you do a speedclear then its fine to not have to use a necro, but so few of you will actually do this, that whining about necro do its lack of speedclear potential is pointless.
Moving on, PvP is what I do. Now I’m not the best player in the world, but I do know a lot about the game and follow a lot of top players. And there are quite a few running necro in tourneys right now. Noscoc is obviously the main and most successful one, but others exist such as Sunfish, OP Necro, Pheownix, and many others in other tourneys besides the weekly ESLs. While you can’t consider Necro the be as META as thief, ele, guard, mesmer, and warrior right now, its readily apparent that Necro is just under meta-status comapred to them. In fact with the rampage nerf today, and the likely switch of mantra mes to PU zerk (non-interrupt based), I think we’ll see even more necros. If that happens, I don’t think it’d be impossible for cele necro to take over zerker warrior’s spot in the meta, but thats just a prediction. Time will tell if I’m right or not though.
And I’m just stating what I’ve seen from casual observation, I’m not telling you what top players say about necro in pvp, because that would be the authority argument that we already decided is illogical.
So what do we do? Do we just sit here and whine about things like spinal shivers? Or do we play the game and show everyone what the necromancer can really do?
forums jacked up the formatting of my original post so w/e I’ll do a summarized version:
-i like how you linked the kill video and not any of brazil’s other dozens of videos about why necro isn’t pve viable
-pvp groups running necro is cool. when one actually wins something (wins something, not places second or third against a meta team) i’ll buy it
-‘not everyone speedruns’, except the vast majority of lfg listings expecting you to be able to speedrun, i guess
-argument from fallacy fallacy (lol)
anyway sorry, ill pull on my magic bootstraps harder and rocket necro into pve dungeon acceptance and dozens of pvp tournament wins, the community impression (both inside and outside of the prof’s players) that it’s utter garbage is obviously imagined and doesn’t cause any harm to the community as a whole ¯\(?)/¯
(edited by Golby.5348)
Your argument is a slippery slope, which by definition is a logical fallacy.
dial back the forum debate olympics and i’ll take you seriously
we know that spinal shivers was never unblockable. the tooltip was changed in the specialization update to say that it was blockable. a bug report was filed noting that it was not actually unblockable. arenanet’s decision, rather than to fix the reported bug that prevented spinal shivers from being unblockable was to decide retroactively that the tooltip and patch note was incorrect, not the functionality
but seriously dude, why don’t you chill out and go take your necro to the spvp esports scene or whatever where you claim it’s viable if it’s so kitten good
show me all those top tier pve necromancers that dnt is using
obviously it’s a victim complex and necros need to get good despite the best players in the world saying it’s trash, right?
in before “you used top level play as a metering statistic therefore you’re doing THE AUTHORITY FALLACY” or whatever because arguing semantics is easier than arguing facts
(edited by Golby.5348)
If you were running focus to begin with… well then pvp probably isn’t for you.
this is good, sound logic. “this thing is totally unusable due to balance problems, so making it even more unusable is fine.” i wish i could design games under this philosophy and make as much money as anet
at this point you might as well say, like, i dunno
“if you were running necromancer pve, pvp, and 2/3 of wvw probably aren’t for you. therefore, any nerfs to necromancer to make it even more unusable are totally fine. stop having a victim complex”
frankly with each balance patch i become more and more amazed at arenanet’s ability to design and balance their own game. it’s shocking how they can progress so much in other areas of the game, but profession design makes GW2 look like a game from 2005 with how disparate and broken it remains.
(edited by Golby.5348)
This is an unfortunate bug.
Very.
rest in piece, terrormancer
first arenanet could not balance you
then arenanet could not even code you
Its just a bug, let’s not get crazy.
it was a joke
This is an unfortunate bug.
Very.
rest in piece, terrormancer
first arenanet could not balance you
then arenanet could not even code you
Most builds I can make feel fun and right to use now, but the power creep of other professions is horrid, and the fact that bleed and poison got shafted really hurts most condi builds we can play. It’s telling that the only way we really get good condition stacks going is by transferring other peoples’ or by getting lucky and corrupting giant boon stacks. Parts of the profession feel vaguely coherent now, but there’s still a lot of missing pieces.
My biggest disappointment is, every build I can make right now feels like it should be a Power build. My own conditions suck because I’m relying on everyone else’s, so if I want to run a corrupt build, I do that with power. I want to run a transfer build – may as well do that with power. I want to run wells…may as well do that with power! And the beat goes on. Our own bleed application just feels so bad compared to others’, and our poison access doesn’t make up for it. So focusing on my own ability to make conditions – as opposed to manipulating others’ – feels useless. It’s a neat niche, but it really limits weapon variety.
(edited by Golby.5348)
I’ve noticed this as well. Was playing around with a gimmicky condi transfer corruption build earlier (heheeheheh DOWNSTATE JOKE heheheh) and transferred a low-HP elementalist’s burning back to himself. The kill log noted that, somehow, the Ele had killed himself with Burning rather than me.
It seems that, at least with some condition transfers, the conditions are being credited to their original creator rather than the Necromancer?
Thanks for clarification on this change.
Now we just need a comment on the Consume Conditions change… If that would happen, that would be great.
They probably think Necromancers would want it to synergize with condition transfer even though condition transfer really doesn’t work with Corruption skills as well as it seems to on paper.
Still it’d be nice if a developer would respond instead of leaving us all to speculate.
The metagame is important to who?
Everyone who cares about being good.
How does your class being good at top level play hurt you as a casual player? It means you will find more groups, and when forced to pub, the pubbies who care won’t treat you like dumpster trash. If you don’t care about pubbing around, then nothing changes except some of your stuff is better. Zilch. Nada.
You want to ride the hype train, just turn off all the serious balance discussion and feedback threads and have fun with your circle of friends ingame.
That aside…my greatest concern here is the lack of communication. We’ve been speaking to the dev team entirely through a third party. Our last two red posts were a very minor info verification and a “yes, we nerfed the axe animation” post. Why isn’t the Necro playerbase getting cool ideas spitballed at them by the devs like the Guardian subforum is if they’re getting such a much-needed and vital rework to our core traits?
(edited by Golby.5348)
Mesmer GS wasn’t necessarily being talked about on a fairly popular podcast that the devs listen/have listened to in the past. It is actually very likely that this was changed primarily because we mentioned it quite a bit, and as long as it exists as a weird interaction they would probably be hesitant to buff Axe AA.
Mesmer GS cancelling is talked about frequently and in detail in one of the most popular mesmer PvP guides linked on the official forums, that is 2-3 years old, so….yeah.
If they wanted to do this for the sake of “future changes” to axe they could’ve done some pretty serious harm reduction by waiting until they had said future changes for necro axe sorted out and ready to ship alongside the nerf. As it stands it’s pretty much just kicking one of the worst MH weapons in the game while it’s down…
I wouldn’t say the developers literally hate Necromancers but it’s clear they are absurdly careless with the implementation of pretty much anything the prof gets.
So did mesmer GS get this fix too or did Anet confirm they still hate necros today~?
Forgive me if I’m wrong… but the above is all without Dhuumfire, is it not?
Semi-related at best, but will DOOOOOOOOOOMfire even be good for core necro condi, even now that it’s moved to soul reaping? Or is this just Reaper-specific speculation?
Did you know Necromancers are the only profession without blocks, reflects and vigor?
No, not “or Vigor,” “and Vigor” as in every other profession has at least one of each of these things and Necromancers have none of them! Which really makes the argument of “…but that second health bar!” a bit silly. I think a lot of people reading this would trade that second health bar for just one block and a half-decent vigor source in an instant.
Yep! Sorry, by evades I also meant blocks, but blocks are technically a little different from actual evades.
But yeah, that’s my point exactly. Necro EHP is actually really, really bad, because devs and players don’t account for the massive EHP benefits of mitigation from reliable sources of block, vigor, protection, regeneration, stability..for a lifesteal buff to make up for that, it’d have to be tremendous. Necros are probably the least survivable profession on the field right now – because glassier profs have ways to get out of trouble, and tankier profs have ways to stay in trouble without dying (stab, block, prot, etc)
(edited by Golby.5348)
Cast times are absolutely necessary for at least some of the shouts. Counterplay is not only important for a healthy game, but by allowing a skill to have counterplay you can increase its strength.
The counterplay to all other shouts is playing around the boons and conditions they give with removal, kiting, etc. The boon and condition system inherently allows counterplay because boons and conditions can be removed, stalled out, etc. Reaper shouts do not need to be different; said counterplay is already baked into the game. Otherwise Warriors and Guardians and Rangers would not have instant shouts.
I’m sure they will be after the rework. But currently, even if healing worked through DS, the Blood Magic line is just too bad to make some small extra healing worth the point investment.
Yeah this is my main concern. Numerically right now all lifesteal sucks (haaaah.) Giving necro more opportunities to do something that sucks isn’t going to fix the core mathematical problems with life siphoning or stealing or whatever we want to call it.
A big problem (and at this point I’m preaching to the choir, but this is a feedback thread, so y’know) is we (well, ‘we’ as in both naive` players and the devs, experienced players know better) sit down and we make up these theoretical EHP calculations with Death Shroud and they look great! Necro has all this EHP guys! But what falls out of this calculation is that if you truly want a ‘tanky’ class with lots of EHP you’re looking at things like Protection and Regeneration uptime mitigating damage; extra damage mitigated through extra dodges from Vigor, damage mitigated by stab uptime meaning you can actually do things and avoid attacks when 3 or 5 or 30 guys try to stun you, and so on. And these other classes – when they build supporty bunkery type builds, they’re sharing that love, and necro shares nothing,
So obviously this is where a lifesteal fix comes in, you have vamp aura to share the sustain from lifesteal, you have transfusion to share some of the death shroud ‘regen’ from life transfer, but the lifesteal itself has to be -good-. It has to justify us not having those stacks of protection and regeneration and stability and if it does that’s awesome!
That means we can have these tanky vamp aura necro bunkers running around supporting their teammates and fighting on points and spreading hopefully-improved ‘defensive’ conditions like weakness and chill and blind and fear. It means reapers can be these weird anti-guardians they’re basically begging to be running in and setting everything on ice while giving their team Edgy Grimdark flavors of sustain, in WvW and SPvP alike.
But if it doesn’t we’re back at square one except now we have a cool melee variant for Power builds in sPvP I guess and Terrormancer just got a whole lot worse.
At what cost? What is meta-viable in GW2? Passive healing and instant triggers?
Those things literally everyone else has?
Yeah.
Sorry, giving Necromancer things on par with other professions doesn’t suddenly make GW2’s game design any more “degenerate” or “skill-less” than it already is, it just means there’s another “degenerate” “skill-less” prof that’s actually allowed to play the game.
Sorry, but we need to fix game elements based around what the game currently is, not around every game designer’s pipe dream about how it should play.
The DPS, passive healing, active invulnerability defense meta isn’t going away without severe, PR-ruining nerfs to nearly every profession. Necromancer is one of the few that hasn’t been kept up to speed with it, not part of an invisible “skill mandatory” majority.
(edited by Golby.5348)
That’s how thirsty you people are to be just another warrior or guardian.
What’s wrong with wanting every prof to be meta-viable, again…?
Reaper looks great! Aside from shouts being -incredibly- mediocre, there are a lot of nice-looking traits and abilities that would give necro what it needs in melee – especially reliable stability. Shout effects need to be tweaked – heavily.
- Blast finishers and fire fields aren’t happening. There are other ways to support allies that are necromancer in theme and still effective.
This is my biggest concern. What has Arenanet given, or plan to give Necromancers that is ‘effective’ in the PVE DPS might-stack meta today? They’re going to need a hell of a lot of Vulnerability and do a hell of a lot of personal DPS to make up for having no ways to stack might or fury.
As for the alleged Blood Magic rework: Good, but I’m anxious (and certain others are too) due to the current pitiful numbers and effectiveness of lifesteal. If the trait rework doesn’t see some serious numerical improvement, or alternate forms of support other than GW2’s traditionally mediocre raw HP recovery, necromancer’s PVP-oriented defensive support is still dead in the water compared to what other classes provide. Blood magic is also going to have to be extremely worthwhile to keep core Necromancer viable next to Reaper. If the group (or even personal!) sustain from blood is good enough to make up for few active defenses on a core necro, then good! If not, we’re back at square one.
There are still have lots of problems with our current Curses and Spite lines being nasty proxy nerfs to already mediocre-tier builds at best – these still need to be worked on heavily. We haven’t heard a lot of news about this, and I would personally like to. They’re minor tweaks and merges at worst so I can understand why they might not be the focus of a large presentation, but something in the future would be nice.
I’m optimistic – but I have to wait and see the actual live performance before I’m sure Anet isn’t selling core necro players snake oil on these trait reworks.
No single player or group of players on an internet forum is going to be capable of providing a sample size comprehensive enough to logically “prove” or “disprove” that there is any kind of RNG bias bug.
Therefore, it is not logical or sensible to demand that a player provide large samples of evidence they cannot access. The logical party to demand burden of proof or disproof from would be Arenanet; the only company capable of accessing large sets of data.
To state that someone is experiencing bias in their perceptions, you must also first prove that bias exists. Has anyone here successfully provided a data sample large enough to do this? If not, then who can?
It is also worth noting that account age has a linked statistic; magic find. To prove a sensible distribution of loot drops would be simple – accounts with more magic find, over a very large sample, should be getting more top-tier loot drops than accounts with less magic find. Otherwise, evidence shows that magic find is not working as intended.
(edited by Golby.5348)