Is it me or is the crab grab acheivement bugged?
It says grab or steal a crab from opponent. i have used teh fishing rod andgot crabs but these are not counting. yet its a steal?
Been average for me in WVW this week. We are getting slaughtered and I must admit we are losing numbers. I have just read FIRE have or are laving our server also to go to ROS? if this is true I will ask why? As drives me PPL quit to jump to the winning team soon as we start losing. Where is the dedication?
Also its been a challenge but not easy especially as we don’t seem to have numbers anymore. All I can say to our server is have faith and all commanders including myself are doing our best and we will continue to do so.
I myself wont be leaving Gunnars. Ive started to respect a few wvwers and commanders and I enjoy commanding.
Just for now cant wait for ROS to go up so we can start getting our wvw more balanced for now and slowly working our way up.
That was some fun yesterday. And the days before, I really see no reason to complain this match up. Ok for some GH’ s night coverage is annoying, but its an inherent to wvw.
Special thanks to Dzagonur for the turky shoot yesterday evening outside your garrison gate opposite Quintin rofl. 3 Ballista, some ac’s and a Cata and you guys just kept coming. I Got close to 40 lootbags and even 2 rares. I dont know what you guys & galls where thinking.
I think this was a tremendous night/evening. I stood there throwing orders while we had gate blocked and we were taking towers around them lol. I stood there thinking what the hell are they doing.
I don’t get it. People are saying Dzag are rubbish or tactics awful yet they have a hell of a lot of points. Ok WVW is about capping. But they must be doing something right to be good. As past two weeks they always lead the fight and we have taken over, if I am right.
To be fair no matter what tactics people use I just the love the massive 2on 2 fights or 3on 3 fights. This wkend was a prime example and at one stage I got in my head Dzag and ROF were alliance as they both seem to be attacking us and Dzag even had Klovan, not for long tho ;-p.
Was good fighting no matter on tactics or how it was played. Was all in all great fun. Just need to sort Skill Lag now ;-p
Goldbangbang
(edited by Goldhuman.3047)
I have been on all weekend. started Friday in Gunnars borderlands where Dzag and ROf kept sending zergs but by 11pm me and a great load of guys got our lands back. We lost Garri and Bay and hills but in the end we got them all back.
Saturday I was with some more great guys and I was there when we took SM and lost it hour later Saturday afternoon.
Sunday I was on pretty much all day and helped defend SM all day with some great guys and some good commanders and I being a new commander am learning a lot.
Goldbangbang
ok as its not just in wvw as i been on super adventure box today and it crashed inside at water drift one and i fell into water. its annoying as its only just started happening.
Hey there Goldhuman – The error logs look a little inconclusive. Unfortunately they don’t always tell us specifically what the issue at hand is. I’d like to collect a Game Advisor report so I can look into why you might be experiencing this crash. You can download the Game Advisor application at the link below:
http://us.ncsoft.com/gameadvisor/
Please note that you will be automatically prompted to install Game Advisor upon clicking the link. Once you’ve generated the report, you can attach it to this thread by clicking “More posting & formatting options…”
If you don’t want to provide this report in the thread, you can always submit a Technical Support ticket so that we can better assist you one on one. The thread below should detail contacting support:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/support/tech/How-to-Submit-a-Technical-Support-Ticket-2/first#post3957
hello, sorry to be pain i attached report but no reply??
hello,
did yu guys mangae to find anything. i just ported to a new waypoint in wvw and it crashed yet again. same error.
here you go the attached report as requested.
Hello,
Excluding the error regarding display driver i fixed that a while go by removing all drivers and reinstalling. the issue i am getting now is gw2.exe keeps crashing. see attached. I am usually in wvw or a dungeon when this occurs. It is so annoying. i have googled this and i am not the only one that has this problem. please help. dont tell me to repair .dat file. i have done this multiple times. i have even reinstaleld whole game and re downloaded .dat file. its getting annoying now.
Hello,
i have tried a repair and this issue still occurs. ive updated all mydrivers etc and this still occurs. ive even used older drivers and this still occurs. the main issue is the one with gw2.exe crashing. Can you please help anymore.
I am running a AMD fx 8120 eight core with 16gb ram.
hello,
i keep getting random crashes on the game. see attached log file:
it happens mainly when i port to a new way point. but its only this game that crashes. there is no blue screen just a popup saying email arena net. so i click and then game closes and i have to restart. be great if you guys could fix this.
regards
carl
bah they must be able to code it again. cant be that hard. if someone coded it in first place ;-)
Just wondering what people think. I think its silly allblueprints are soulbound and not account bound. i went to put some in my storage other day and i couldnt as could not stack them with others i had got from another character.
Okay so I’m a tad bit confused with what people are complaining about influence wise.
A guild bounty unlock costs 30,000 influence or 60 gold and is a one time investment. After that it only take 200 influence to launch a guild mission.
Are smaller guilds really saying that they can’t scrape together 60 gold to do this in the worst case scenario?
It should be relatively simple for a small guild of <10 players to come up with that type of money. If you’re small then it should be easy to get everyone working towards that goal. If you find this too difficult then the problem isn’t with your size, it’s with your members not being active enough.
Im sorry but I disagree. Are you in a large guild. To me the problem is Art of War is in WVW tier and not other unlocks and the sheer amount of influence required. We can get it but it will take forever to get as we are a small guild.
Plus 60g between 5-7 active ppl. Im sorry for me that’s impossible as we used most of our money gearing people up. But 60g is for one unlock not all of them.
And I would say our current members are active and on everyday. But we be lucky if we get 1k influence a day.
Well, in my situation, I’m fairly close with a larger guild that I probably won’t represent except during their guild missions (since my guild can’t do them). I’m on a separate server so my influence gain doesn’t affect them much anyway. But we’re on good terms with each other. I commonly do dungeons with them while not representing, etc. I don’t think they consider it leeching and they’re happy to have me as an “honorary”. I’d say give them a chance before calling them a leech.
edit: I like Jornophelanthas’ idea.
I think there is no problem for anyone if someone makes a personal arrangement with someone, if they like the person know their situation etc. but I still think that this can’t be a solution for everyone who is in a small guild.
It’s not a solution at all. It’s just a statement people who join large guilds but don’t represent aren’t all leeches.
Who is with me on the tier idea?
Because I really don’t care if I get the leet rewards. Like I really don’t mind doing lower level fractals. I don’t care if I get to higher level ones. I don’t really even want to. I just like being able to access the content, even with the less cool rewards and it being less challenging.
yeah I think this is what we all want to kick start the small guilds to enjoy something as well whilst still working towards the big stuff.
If I am honest this be the first time I agree with korrigan. I believe if your in a guild you should help it. if not leave. and if I saw someone join just for an event id bin them off. I want people who are ready to help the guild get better and grow.
Unless of course the guild is inviting people to join just for the events.
And this is precisely what server friendly, community based, none elitist large guilds will do. I fully expect the best guilds to say “Hey folks we’re popping a guild event, want to join us for an hour and enjoy the flavour. If you like it stay awhile and hell, we don’t mind if you normally represent your small guild of local friends”
Those random invited people are no guild members, no problem with that. What I dislike is guild members who are members just for profit, not for community. Random people joining your events is just like random people you do dynamic events with when leveling. And they don’t get the full rewards either.
If you end with a guild roster full of people who never represent, and therefore never participate in guild chat aka in the community, it’s no longer a guild you have… it’s a giant pickup group.You misunderstand. The thought discussed here is guilds actually inviting people into their guild for the duration of a Guild Mission. The invitees would thus have the ability to represent and get full rewards for the Guild Mission.
At the end of the mission, the new recruits would leave the guild again (or get kicked by mutual agreement). In some cases, guilds looking to recruit permanent members could invite these temporary members to stay around for longer.Right ok but they would get rewards for characters but for guild rewards they would help feeding the larger guild and giving them the rewards. It doesn’t help the smaller guilds still. I understand what you mean but what if you had a small guild and wanted to get that built up. Doing events with a larger guild doesn’t do this.
Doing a Guild Mission with a large guild as a temporary member does not gain influence for your own (small) guild. After the guild mission, you leave the large guild and represent your own guild again, gaining influence for any other events, dungeons, fractals, WvW or whatever you do.
It doesn’t gain your guild faster growth towards Guild Missions, but it does give you (as a player) Guild Commendations and a shot at a Precursor.
Of course, all this rides on a large guild having a temporary-membership-for-our-upcoming-Guild-Mission recruitment drive. Some large guilds may even start charging a fee for this.
Right I want influence for my own guild and as for larger guilds if they asked me for a fee id say do one. I want to do my own stuff with my own guild. The game is called guild wars, it revolves around guilds and this means all guilds, small or large.
You misunderstand. The thought discussed here is guilds actually inviting people into their guild for the duration of a Guild Mission. The invitees would thus have the ability to represent and get full rewards for the Guild Mission.
At the end of the mission, the new recruits would leave the guild again (or get kicked by mutual agreement). In some cases, guilds looking to recruit permanent members could invite these temporary members to stay around for longer.Sounds a lot like a nice way for larger guilds to steal members from smaller ones to me, not to mention the smaller guilds don’t gain anything from it.
The whole multi-guild thing is flawed anyway in my opinion. There are many good ideas in GW2, but that’s not one of them.
I agree this was my point I made earlier. You larger guilds want entice members this way. Easier if ANET do something for smaller guilds and if people don’t want anything to do with larger guild they still get same content.
If I am honest this be the first time I agree with korrigan. I believe if your in a guild you should help it. if not leave. and if I saw someone join just for an event id bin them off. I want people who are ready to help the guild get better and grow.
Unless of course the guild is inviting people to join just for the events.
And this is precisely what server friendly, community based, none elitist large guilds will do. I fully expect the best guilds to say “Hey folks we’re popping a guild event, want to join us for an hour and enjoy the flavour. If you like it stay awhile and hell, we don’t mind if you normally represent your small guild of local friends”
Those random invited people are no guild members, no problem with that. What I dislike is guild members who are members just for profit, not for community. Random people joining your events is just like random people you do dynamic events with when leveling. And they don’t get the full rewards either.
If you end with a guild roster full of people who never represent, and therefore never participate in guild chat aka in the community, it’s no longer a guild you have… it’s a giant pickup group.You misunderstand. The thought discussed here is guilds actually inviting people into their guild for the duration of a Guild Mission. The invitees would thus have the ability to represent and get full rewards for the Guild Mission.
At the end of the mission, the new recruits would leave the guild again (or get kicked by mutual agreement). In some cases, guilds looking to recruit permanent members could invite these temporary members to stay around for longer.
Right ok but they would get rewards for characters but for guild rewards they would help feeding the larger guild and giving them the rewards. It doesn’t help the smaller guilds still. I understand what you mean but what if you had a small guild and wanted to get that built up. Doing events with a larger guild doesn’t do this.
If I am honest this be the first time I agree with korrigan. I believe if your in a guild you should help it. if not leave. and if I saw someone join just for an event id bin them off. I want people who are ready to help the guild get better and grow.
Unless of course the guild is inviting people to join just for the events.
And this is precisely what server friendly, community based, none elitist large guilds will do. I fully expect the best guilds to say “Hey folks we’re popping a guild event, want to join us for an hour and enjoy the flavour. If you like it stay awhile and hell, we don’t mind if you normally represent your small guild of local friends”
Your right, and if the smll guild recruits few new members, these new members then prefer the larger guild and leave the small guild for the larger one. And wait theres more. when these events go whos gets all the influence and merits. the small guild or the large guild?
Your contradicting your self though. You say being in a small guild is a consequence so get used to it. I know I am in a small guild. That wont change. Seriously why do you want the costs to come down. You can easily work and get upgrades etc with 20-30 people. see below:
30 people log on in a day gets you 1500 influence. if they have multiple characters then an extra 50 per character. This doesn’t include events and activities that gain influence. You could be potentially earning 4k+ influence a day. So why say you want costs reduced when its obvious your guild aint small and in your opinion you don’t need it reduced.
I don’t contradict myself at all. Even with 30 members, the costs are high, and I imagine the pain for smaller guilds, so I support a cost reduction. We can deal with the actual costs if really needed, but that doesn’t stop me from being empathic with people in smaller guilds.
Like I said the rest of us with 10 or less members do. as it will take us approximately4/5 times longer to get than your guild.
That’s the point you’re missing… even if they halve the costs, it will still take you 4/5 times longer to get. The only solution would be to make the costs insignificant, but that would defeat the purpose of unlocking guild events, which is working together towards a goal.
And then there’s also the problem of how small can a guild be… if you adjust the costs for 10 man guilds, the 5 man ones will start complaining until the costs is adjusted to them… and they you will have the 2 man “wife and husband” guilds crying they can’t unlock the events and want it adjusted to them too.
Slippery slope.
Your right it is a slippery slope. But I don’t know what situation some guilds are in. But I will say one thing I don’t think it is easy to recruit in this game. On guild wars 1 I found it easy but here people I see are in guilds already or don’t want to join.
And as a final note, I personally don’t give a toss about the gear. I just don’t like that small guilds are faced with such an overly massive obstacle to reach a chance at content and then be called leeches for reluctantly joining bigger guilds just to try it out.
Let’s be clear once and for all about this. A small guild member changing his mind and joining a bigger guild, or recruiting more people, is in no way a “leech”. But a guy representing a small guild 99% of the time and just switching to a larger guild when comes event time without ever having participated in building up the guild’s community and of course, gaining the required influence, is indeed a “leech”.
Or call him an opportunist if you prefer.
If I am honest this be the first time I agree with korrigan. I believe if your in a guild you should help it. if not leave. and if I saw someone join just for an event id bin them off. I want people who are ready to help the guild get better and grow.
I am sorry and I am sure people will agree with me here. You are not getting the point. I have read all your posts and it is driving me mad. You obviously come from a big guild with 20-30 members but please go back and read other posts. Most people like myself are in guilds with 10 or less members and we don’t want to join big guilds as we just want a close knit guild with friends. And it is these guilds that are missing out.
20-30 members isn’t big. We actually are a quite “close knit” guild and we are quite picky with our recruitment. Everyone knows each other, and I’m actually glad of being part of a community with so many nice members and which extends beyond the limits of the game too.
If you choose to stay with 10 members, you have to accept the consequences… and that is that it will take you 3x the time it would take a 30 member guild to gain the same amount of influence.
Should ANet reduce the cost of the new guild events? Yes, I definitely think they should. But even if they do, your small guild will STILL be much slower than a larger guild to unlock the stuff. That’s the price to pay for not wanting to try and meet other people and just wanting to stick with known friends. In games like MMORPGs, people get rewarded for taking the “risk” to meet new people.
Let me know when ascended earrings and amulets drop in fractals mmk?
Let me know when those are required to play the game.
20-30 is not small especially if you are active. It wont take you long to get influence for guild missions. You see things in your own perspective. You need to open your eyes and see the bigger picture. Sounds like you don’t give a coot bout anyone else or the guild missions. I think you should just be quiet now lol.
Seriously have you read the posts my guild is not the only one….. Open your eyes.
Come on guys stick up for me here and jump on this band wagon… We all know issues. Ideas are good and always have been just need a quick fix once ANET listen to people. But we all agree this should have been done beforehand.
So come on guys get on this band wagon and tell korrigan he is wrong…..
Maybe you should use your own advice and start reading my posts completely before answering. Notably the part where I said ANet should reduce the costs for unlocking the guild events. Open your eyes.
Let me know when ascended earrings and amulets drop in fractals mmk?
Let me know when those are required to play the game.
since ascended gear isn’t required except if you are into high level fractal farming… and if you are into that, the ascended gear you get from fractals is enough, you do not need the laurel gear.
Do you read what you post?
Absolutely. We have a guild mate who made it to high fractal level without any laurel gear. Laurel gear isn’t required to play the game. He was level 20+ November 28, so he’s much higher today, I’ll ask him what level exactly when I catch him online.
Your contradicting your self though. You say being in a small guild is a consequence so get used to it. I know I am in a small guild. That wont change. Seriously why do you want the costs to come down. You can easily work and get upgrades etc with 20-30 people. see below:
30 people log on in a day gets you 1500 influence. if they have multiple characters then an extra 50 per character. This doesn’t include events and activities that gain influence. You could be potentially earning 4k+ influence a day. So why say you want costs reduced when its obvious your guild aint small and in your opinion you don’t need it reduced.
Like I said the rest of us with 10 or less members do. as it will take us approximately4/5 times longer to get than your guild.
regards
gold
I am sorry and I am sure people will agree with me here. You are not getting the point. I have read all your posts and it is driving me mad. You obviously come from a big guild with 20-30 members but please go back and read other posts. Most people like myself are in guilds with 10 or less members and we don’t want to join big guilds as we just want a close knit guild with friends. And it is these guilds that are missing out.
20-30 members isn’t big. We actually are a quite “close knit” guild and we are quite picky with our recruitment. Everyone knows each other, and I’m actually glad of being part of a community with so many nice members and which extends beyond the limits of the game too.
If you choose to stay with 10 members, you have to accept the consequences… and that is that it will take you 3x the time it would take a 30 member guild to gain the same amount of influence.
Should ANet reduce the cost of the new guild events? Yes, I definitely think they should. But even if they do, your small guild will STILL be much slower than a larger guild to unlock the stuff. That’s the price to pay for not wanting to try and meet other people and just wanting to stick with known friends. In games like MMORPGs, people get rewarded for taking the “risk” to meet new people.
Let me know when ascended earrings and amulets drop in fractals mmk?
Let me know when those are required to play the game.
20-30 is not small especially if you are active. It wont take you long to get influence for guild missions. You see things in your own perspective. You need to open your eyes and see the bigger picture. Sounds like you don’t give a coot bout anyone else or the guild missions. I think you should just be quiet now lol.
Seriously have you read the posts my guild is not the only one….. Open your eyes.
Come on guys stick up for me here and jump on this band wagon… We all know issues. Ideas are good and always have been just need a quick fix once ANET listen to people. But we all agree this should have been done beforehand.
So come on guys get on this band wagon and tell korrigan he is wrong…..
I’ve ran guilds of over 200 members in the past and I do not want that level of stress, nor do I wish to go out and mass recruit only to have a massive job of keeping all of those people happy and content in my guild, thus forefeiting my own game enjoyment.
Except that you do not need 200 members to gain influence at a reasonable speed in GW2. With 20 to 30 active members, you are just fine.
We don’t invite everybody we see on public chat, we have a recruitment process with required application, since we try to maintain a community, and not just a group of people who use each other to get shinies in the game, yet we have 30ish active members and the influence builds up just fine. You don’t have to recruit everyone like a madman and make a mess of a guild in order to have enough members, friendly people are out there, everywhere, you just have to find them, and them to find you.
I am sorry and I am sure people will agree with me here. You are not getting the point. I have read all your posts and it is driving me mad. You obviously come from a big guild with 20-30 members but please go back and read other posts. Most people like myself are in guilds with 10 or less members and we don’t want to join big guilds as we just want a close knit guild with friends. And it is these guilds that are missing out.
Dunno if this has been mentioned before but Arenanet should implement an alliance system similar to GW1. The Guild Missions can then give guild rewards to every guild in the Alliance if a certain percentage of the guild’s players participitate. Limit it to 5 guilds in an alliance or something.
Good idea but sorry I would disagree as you would be in an alliance and have the big guild doing the work and you would get rewards. I would rather be in my small guild and get chance to work for something. It is all part the fun of working for something. Just currently the grind looks painful.
But I understand why ANET have done this and it is a good idea. Just they just need a patch now to help us small folk out.
gold
Coming from a smaller guild (5-8 active) I do have to agree with Matipzieu KyA’s post:
Where I love the idea of these missions it will take my guild a good number of months to open up the content. The core of the guild is a group of friends who i’m sure will stay but I am worried that some of our members who we’ve recruited might move to a guild who already have all of these cool feature open.
I am in agreeance. We are in the same boat. I think to do a quick fix and for everyones best interests. They need more tiers. So something for the smaller guilds to do and still the top stuff for big guilds. So for example currently I believe there is 6/7 tiers for bounties. Why not double this and change rewards. So tier 1 you need 1k influence. and double it each time so by time you get to tier 6 which will be the current tier 1 it costs around 30k. This will slightly help smaller guilds.
But on a second note I can understand ANET want to surprise us and make us gamers happy. But they do need to get opinions before hand but without giving too much information away and think of the whole community.
regards
gold
Hello,
I like what ANET are trying to do here. Guild Missions sound cool. But everyone wants to play the game and this means every aspect of the game.
This idea that everyone has to grind to get the bounties first is a awful idea. The guild I am in has 10 people and we are a tight closed knit group. Most know each other in real life. But ANET is killing us. If we recruit someone that person will leave as we will take too long to get the guild missions.
ANET you want my opinion. I love this idea but for smaller groups you need to do something so we don’t crumble. help us grow as well. There must be a way to help us little folk out.
Thank you
Gold
Hello,
Just wanted to hear peoples feedback on Mini Pets. I love these little guys. Ok, they are passive but to me it is part of guild wars. They are something different and like the acheivement, for some people a collectable. Gotta collect them all :-)
But i was wondering if it is possible in the near future ANET could do something more to allow users to use them more. Ie a pet slot.
So you could attach a pet and press a key to summon it. Save going to inventory to summon. Plus it doesnt help u need to put your pets in a safe box to make sure they stay in your inventory.
i look forward from peoples replies.
Gold.
I think the most important SPvP feature is a leaderbord with a guild rank based on guild vs guild battles. Way more important then a personal rank, because this game is based on teamplay. This is one of the things that made Guildwars 1 so succesfull, so why not do it again?
I am in agreeance pal but at same time, i still think do an individual ranking as well as guild ranking would be doing everything possible and using the games full potential. I also liked arenas in first guild wars as part of factions. It is very similar to wvw but if they could somehow integrate this too. But i like SPVP and i am looking forward to single pvp ie 1v1.
I think some of you guys need to back off… Johnathan and the team are building every month on this FREE game and are doing a good job.
Omg, you talk about some other game not GW2.
FYI this game isnt “FREE” at all. I palyed 65 euros for it (at preoder day one).
also FYI devs doing great job (maybe) in PVE only, I did not see any PvP change so far (except for a few balance patches).
Mate get a grip……… I meant you are not paying every month like a kitten WOW game. You play free month on month and you have option to pay for gems. you are not forced too. They are doing a good job. If you dont like the ideas they obviously want our opinions on then go play WOW. They have made any changes to PVP as yet, if you re read topic they have ideas and the reason they are using this topic is to get ideas and opinions from us players to make it so we cna all be happy and to increase the amount of people that play this game.
you sound like a tool pal.
I think some of you guys need to back off… Johnathan and the team are building every month on this FREE game and are doing a good job. ok some things in the past have had blips which drove some of us mad but they are trying.
I think the ideas Johnathan has mentioned in SPVP are awesome. One of the things i love in this game is the SPVP, more so than WVW. I cant wait for 1v1 but i do recommend before the 1v1 they check the builds people use in spvp. When i first played SPVP i did ok and not the best but i had few kills and points etc. Now i have noticed alot more ppl using Eles and Mesmers and im getting slaughtered and dying time after time. No one wants to die straight away but be good to make things more equal.
I for one can not wiat for these changes. Good job and great Ideas. perhaps one update just for a record you could help us small guys try do something for guilds in past. perhaps when you bring in guild halls and GVG you could arrange to help recruit so we can get people in our guild so we can do guild SPVP etc.
thnak you and keep it up.
Gold. (Gunnars Hold) (gunnars scum)
Right i booked a few days off for this weekend. Im not happy. i dont think a few people are with the way this event has gone on.
Phase 1 i didnt even know what was happening and didnt really have much chance to do anything due to the lag.
Phase 2 i missed this and apparently we have to retake LA. From what i saw we were talking then had to board a boat. So i take it we were meant to get attacked.
Is kiel Event chain a one time event, if so im not happy i waited and she bugged out and i lost it and couldnt even finish it.
Phase 3, this is upcoming and i hope you are going to sort.
So i have a few ideas to resolve this:
Phase 1 and Phase 2 – Create a NPC in LA that kind of lets you relive the past. Re Live past battles? For say a week or so.. to give ppl chance to have a go at these events lag free. May need scaling down as wont be as many players but i think you will make alot of people happy if you do this.
Perhaps add Kiel event on it also for a week too. We all know you said one time event but might be idea for past events having an NPC like this. Perhaps call him an Historian of Past battles or something.
Another thing i know it was a risk but i spent £30 on gems and i used all to get the new chests and i got nothing of value out of approximatly 17 chests. Wasnt very happy. You need to sort it.
When you did events in Guild Wars liek the dragon event and christmas one it was amazing and from what i can remember no bugs. But lately these bugs are getting to me. We appreciate game is pretty much free but at same time when we do put money into game like the gems for chests be good to get something as i have now wasted £30 also .
Hope you sort something out. i Wanna rleive these battles too.
Goldhuman (Gunnars Hold)
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