Showing Posts For Hepan.2709:
@Hepan http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Infiltrator%27s_Arrow didn’t know this one had CD? thought it was initiative. Also let’s say i run to try to make the thief loose initiative, then he can stealth and because of culling he can be stealthed for a while and regen initiative. So now the thief has catched me and got some initiative and can then start the fight. Your point is?
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shadowstep
Going stealth requires more ini or putting heal/another utility on CD, meaning you put another part of his bar on lockdown. If you cant win vs. somebody who can only spam 1 for a while/has 66% of his utilities down, then what can I say but l2p?
I see thieves die to everything, and the thief has an instat advantage when you say oh kitten thats a thief i wont even try.
I cant tell you how many oppenents just keep running in the same direction when i jump them, not even trying to turn around and fight. Its mostly ppls mentality that is screwing them over, for the most part.
I have killed some thieves 1v1 on my ranger and i don’t run because i know they will catch me because of the mobility so i fight. But as i said, i die more to thieves than to other professions and i think it’s because they got more advantage than other professions, no?
You have 25% signet, yes? Same as thiefs.
Thief has shadowstep, using it to cover ground will put his stunbreak on CD.
Thief can HS/IA to cover distance, spending initiative, efectively lowering their combat effectivenss.
Knowing when to pounce, defend, run is pretty much all you need to know.
@Hepan “If thieves are such omgimbagodmode why do I kill them” Because your a thief:P
And i’m tired of thieves that say nothing is wrong with the balance. Why is it then that whenever i meet a thief it’s always a bigger chance that he will kill me than when i meet other professions? Is it because thief players in general is better than players with other professions, or is it because thief profession is easier to play or that thief is a little op atm?
I see thieves die to everything, and the thief has an instat advantage when you say oh kitten thats a thief i wont even try.
I cant tell you how many oppenents just keep running in the same direction when i jump them, not even trying to turn around and fight. Its mostly ppls mentality that is screwing them over, for the most part.
When thief exits stealth a black swirl shows up at hist feet, if you click on that you will target him, also tabing after they appear works to and you’re sure to target him if not a lot of other PC/NPC are around.
Only a thief player would say this with a straight face.
Since I don’t know where he’s going to come out of stealth and since he usually goes straight back into stealth, he never actually appears on screen. Most of the time I don’t even see a black swirl. The times I do see it, he goes back into stealth immediately so no targeting. If you’re saying that .5 of a second SOMEWHERE on screen is enough to target him, you have far better reactions than I do.
I have to reinforce what transtemporal is saying about the ‘black swirl’ and if anything his politeness in answering you. Stealth stacks so the reality of using it to target is not legitimate as they may still be stealthed. Also the context makes a HUGE difference of how you can possibly use it in a closed/open area as a group lay down aoe or are you solo. Target the swirl, lol, seriously.
Works for me and quite a few ppl i know, if you cant get it to work its again everybody elses fault right?
Stealth stacks yes, but if he attacks you black swirls show, he has revealed debuff, so all you have to do is click on it and you’ll have ur target.
Anyways im pretty much done since its like talking to a brick wall. Some players refuse to learn to play against thieves even when they themselves tell them how to counter.
If thieves are such omgimbagodmode why do I kill them, I see other players kill them, I die on my thief same as on my other toons etc. etc.
The only players complaning about thieves are bads who refuse how to adapt and l2p within the parameters and limits currently set in WvWvW, whether they are intenional design (“spamable” stealth from cnd) or unintentional flaws in the system (culling).
Go back to PvE.
Edit: on second thought, stay. Your tears makes killing you so much more enjoyable.
(edited by Hepan.2709)
- Traps: Now, your character laughs evilly whenever he sets a trap.
rofl! if this change goes live i’ll put at least 1 trap in bar.
Oh god no. Imagine all the high pitched female asura lol spam.
sigh…its funny how much trouble thieves actually have landing backstabs against anyone with any situational awareness whatsoever.
Y’all talking like everytime a thief stealths your keyboards magicly stop working and your bars go on a 3-4 sec lockdown.I look forward to hearing your theories on how I’m supposed to have ‘situational awareness’ of someone I can’t see. Y’all talking like we can magically target stealthed targets.
Situational awareness as in: oh noes he’s in stealth proly going for the backstab, should i just stand still or move around? Ill just stand still, im sure ill be OK.
This game is built around active dodging and reacting to what your enemy does. If you react poorly to certain situations thats everybody elses fault but your own right?
Thats why you dont have some passive 59% chance to dodge an incoming attack.
As for atacking what you cant see: yes you cant target in active stealth, you can spam #1 tho, lucky shots still hurt.
As for culling: yes, big issue. yes, fix asap (tho that last patch just made it worse), but you can target somebody under the effect of culling.
When thief exits stealth a black swirl shows up at hist feet, if you click on that you will target him, also tabing after they appear works to and you’re sure to target him if not a lot of other PC/NPC are around.
And before you go why should i have to do all that just to be able to target him, so unfair, anet nerf plox; other thievs (well atleast me) do that when they want to target a thief/any PC/any NPC under culling effect.
(edited by Hepan.2709)
@kormona (and all other qqers about stealth): stealth is not the problem, culling is. learn the difference already. Cry to anet to fix culling and then we’ll see how unbalanced thief is.
I’m not qq’ing, i’m stating a fact. Having almost constant invisibility without any way to break it before it runs out is way to op, and when it’s combined with initiative system it’s broken. And i know the difference between culling and stealth, and yes i have played spvp too, but i still think the stealth should get a rework. And i don’t want thief nerfed to the ground but i want them buffed on the cc and support. Invisibility is a huge defence abilitity and that makes it easier for thieves to go glass cannon than other classes. You can say just aoe the thief, but you know a good thief don’t stand in the aoe while stealthed, and since they got so huge mobility they can go invis and then appear a long distance away if they mess up the fight. And yes i have played thief too. Anet should take a look at other games how they handle invisibility and change it to stealth instead.
Appearently not. The only way thieves get perma invisible atm is with culling (in combat). The problem here is you dont have those 3 secs to unload on him, like you would if his char appeared instantly when stealth is over.
Sure rework our stealth and give us means to block/mist form/invoul/insert other form of completely negating damage. Im all for it. Might be something like Walk in Shadows: Walk in shadows and evade all incoming attacks for 3-5 secs.
Cause atm we have nothing BUT stealth to trick our enemies to swing at empty air and smart dodging to avoid the big hits.
Quote:
Backstab: requires positioning and if you dont expect a stealhed player to come from behind, you have l2p issues.
And steal ‘only does damage if traited’ ..yep, only 6-8k in one hit as part of a 1 second macro that 3 shots players…..
Yes, and I can tell exactly where that stealthed thief is to ensure he isn’t behind me HOW? Oh I know, throw down my endless stun locks (that I don’t have), or my endless aoe (that I don’t have).
Twirl in a circle and hope he can’t run around me faster than I can rotate (or just stop and wait for my back to face him and bang).
Ahh, yes, use my detect stealthed players potion! Oh wait, devs forgot to include this in the game….
Gotta love some of the lame rubbish thiefs come up with to try and stop the devs from fixing the broken class.
sigh…its funny how much trouble thieves actually have landing backstabs against anyone with any situational awareness whatsoever.
Y’all talking like everytime a thief stealths your keyboards magicly stop working and your bars go on a 3-4 sec lockdown.
Edit: love what trash players come up with to call a class borked when its actually other classes that are severly lacking in some areas and game mechanics that are fubar’d.
(edited by Hepan.2709)
Yes some mesmer traits make it pretty impossible to fight on some classes. Its either let clones/phants alive and take damage or kill them and get damage via conditions. Who came up with that?
The best thing when fighting a mesmer is to just focus on the player if you have any kind of burst damage. Most are pretty distinguishable from their clones by signets, food buffs, world completion stars, upleveled arrow, boons, and last but not least movement and skills they cast.
aaaand there are glamour mesmers like me that put up a bubble around the thief and once they try to backstab, they pretty much backstab themselves. u dont need to worrie about the clones but the bubbles on condition dmg. the glamour build is very very deadly for zergs. I fought 2 thieves and 1 lowbie warrior at once today and they all died to cofusion dmg. there is ways to counter thieves, but if they permastealth its pretty hard as u dont know if u are hitting them or not.
idk what bubble you talking about since i never played mesmer but the moment i see some pink stuff on the ground i high tail it out of there until its over.
i also retreat if i get confusion and just let it wear off wait for some CDs and try again.
what i meant about clones is the constat fire/bleed and whatnot from staff clones. Those are just annoying as hell, as having them out all i see are pink balls flying around and me on fire
@kormona (and all other qqers about stealth): stealth is not the problem, culling is. learn the difference already. Cry to anet to fix culling and then we’ll see how unbalanced thief is.
@tagnut: steal is a class mech not utility combined with ini system. on its own it does no damage only traited does damage. Lets then reduce the damage to warr adrenaline skills, no boons for eles on atun swap, no activate on guard virtues, etc. etc.
C&D if not traited for or dodged/misses burns half of our ini or efectively half our CDs if you will, its good. Again with the stealthing part, culling is the issue
Backstab: requires positioning and if you dont expect a stealhed player to come from behind, you have l2p issues.
HS yes it provides alot of good stuff, but it just shows where other classes are lacking. Necro, engi, and some other need a serius buff when it comes to gap closing. I would much rather see them buffed then just blindly swinging the nerf hammer around and hoping kitten get balanced.
Yes some mesmer traits make it pretty impossible to fight on some classes. Its either let clones/phants alive and take damage or kill them and get damage via conditions. Who came up with that?
The best thing when fighting a mesmer is to just focus on the player if you have any kind of burst damage. Most are pretty distinguishable from their clones by signets, food buffs, world completion stars, upleveled arrow, boons, and last but not least movement and skills they cast.
1. I said in 1v1. My warrior is the toon I have my commander badge on, so granted I don’t 1v1 that often on it. Absolutely thieves have killed me plenty of times, but always in group situations. So if you’re gonna call me a liar, at least read what I said first.
2. So you agree with me that daggerstorm is only useful in certain situations, and is only ever really effective against bad players who don’t know how to deal with it? Thanks for your agreement!
3. Again, that’s exactly what I said. You say what I said was BS, and then proceed to post exactly what I said. I don’t understand you at all.
4. Again, what I said. Alot of thieves are easy to beat if you make their opening combo fail, because many don’t know how to , or don’t want to, do anything else.
5. If someone blows all their CC at once and lets you break away to heal up, then that is a bad player. Doesn’t mean there aren’t counters to thieves for good players to use.
And your last paragraph again agrees with me ^^ If you’re going to say I’m full of crap, don’t then go and post the exact same stuff.
1. You never said anything about any comm badge, only group fights on the warr yadda yadda, just 1v1. I was also talking about that. You lose to all classes at 1 point.
2. Every weapon/utility/elite is situational, except that DS works 80-90% of the time pretty fraking awsome, id say it pretty much pulls ahead on the whole situational thing.
3. You called for an unneeded nerf to 5-6 seconds, i called BS on that. Culling=/=revealed debuff
Why this is also not good is the builds that rely on stealth to heal and clean conditions.
With 5 seconds if you get stacked and cant stealth to remove conditons and heal you’d be a sitting duck for any conditon build out there
4. No. What you described is not what 90% of thives do. You desribed making the first attack from stealth, meaning that you get revealed, making the c&d fail etc. etc. That is NOT what most ppl complain about when they cry nerf.
5. What i was trying to point out is that anyone running without stunbreak is likely to die a lot more then somebody running with, and since again most ppl just seem to be hammering the keyboard mindlessly blowing every and each of their CDs then spamming #1, almost all of their CC is avoidable by 1 stunbreak.
Last para: not once did you mention anything about build, gear, playstyle. You put forward what you seem to think is some magical recipe to beat thiefs via block/invoul —->snare, wich is so not the case.
The best way to beat a thief(atleast a GC one, that relys on movement, positoning etc) is to try to lure/control the battle into a tight spot. In this case they’ll have problems dodging and keeping out of your big hits.
Prime example: BL map that camp Arah/whatever quarry that has like a wall with wooden thingys running over them and you can land on the top one if you’re on the platform coming down from the tower.
I was fighting a guard there and the battle was in my favor till he made one of the best moves i seen in a while. He had maybe 10% left and he jumped down to the wooden ledge, and since i was pretty in the moment i followed him to do finish it. He didnt heal that much by then maybe to 25% but his big hits came of CD and while i had full endurance and shadow off CD there was just nowhere to run to, since jumping down would mean dying anyway. So he won, maybe got some loot, i respawned and thought man that was good fun.
For garisson I find that the water gate is the most vulnerable of all the gates, walls being excluded, there is rarely a gate breach on the other 4 other gates when I defend due to how you can blast a cannon onto the gate, similar to a catapult.
You can defend water gate from a platform accros from the gate so you can have siege hitting the attackers from behind. It covers the entire tunnel almost and not alot of ppl look up there to clear it, and even if the spot you if you build fairly in the center of the platform the AoEs cant reach you. Sadly also not a lot of defenders place siege there.
I play warrior, thief and elementalist in WvW, warrior most of the time now. I can’t think that I’ve ever lost a 1v1 with a thief while on my warrior. Sometimes they escape, and sometimes I have to back off, but never lost. And the reason is simply that I used to play thief alot and I know its strengths and weaknesses, unlike alot of the posters spreading mis-information in this thread. I’m not trying to brag, I’m really not particularly good at PvP, I’ve just taken the time to learn how other classes work. There are so many people on this forum claiming that you can’t be damaged in stealth, or that you can perma-stealth, or that daggerstorm is an absurdly powerful elite. Using daggerstom in a 1v1 or any melee situation is the surest and fastest way to get yourself killed as a thief. When I see a thief start daggerstorm while I’m on my warrior, I smile inside, ‘cos I’ve as good as won at that point. Most don’t even seem to be aware that the Revealed debuff exists.
Thief’s stealth is supposed to be limited by the Revealed debuff, and the only problem with the class is that rendering issues are making a joke of Revealed. The only “nerf” needed is either to fix the rendering issue, or increase the uptime of Revealed slightly (maybe from 3 seconds to 5 or 6) so that it can do its job properly.
They’re definitely not a weak class, and if played well can be amazing, but equally they have plenty of counters if people would only learn them. If you’re roaming and you encounter a thief, they’ll most likely stealth at about 800-1000 range. Wait 2 seconds, throw up a block/invul, let them waste their steal/CnD, use any single immobilize/knockdown, and congrats, you’ve just beaten about 90% of the thieves in WvW by using a grand total of 2 moves. And if they’re in the 10% of good players who really know how to play, why shouldn’t they be able to beat you just because they’re thief?
Ill pretty much call BS on the entire post.
1. Never losing to a thief: kitten please. You lose to all classes. More to some but to all at some point.
2. DS is a win vs. bad ranged classes 1v1 or in a zerg cause they keep spamming their ranged attacks while you just swirl there and laugh.
3. Revealed is good. Culling is the problem. Its not as bad 1v1 but there is still some latency in rendering.
4. Stealth 800-1000: lol that is fail thief. Most are traited for mug and stealthing before stealing you get debuffed, CnD fails, backstab fails=gz you just failed your entire opener combo, and if you play like this i thank you for the badges.
5. CC: yes its a good counter, but I run shadowstep that is 1200 range instantly and most players blow all their CC in a row so i make em blow their CDs and step, heal come back. Yes sometimes its on CD, so i die, sometimes its on CD and still get away from CC.
I run a fairly glassy build with some valk in the mix, and its enough to get away when i need to. To anyone saying this build is bad, that gear is bad for WvWvW: No, your playstyle doesnt fit your gear. If you have crap reflexes and run beserk gear you will die. A lot. The best counter to any player is to learn your playstyle, polish it, get appropriate gear for it. I see ppl going full beserk and then never learn to dodge and position themselves, and then complain about dying. That is a fail on your part.
Dont pay attenition to what other players say. Every build, and every gear is viable for every part of the game provided you know how to play it.
Meh..just make the extra unwanted rings salvageable but instead of ectos make em drop essence.
@aion guy: i played aion up until the first add-ons hit but end gear in that game was pretty easy to get. It was that lvl 50 crap that made you run around the map at specific time looking for something to spawn n kitten. Doable in 1, 2 weeks top. It was every other gear that was pretty much worthless and a complete waste of time.
Also SMs not putting out dps? lolcat…they had the best dps due to their dots, the only reason you brought the other mage along was for CC
As to why the other guy should give you his loot, no comment. I do the same. Insta block on anyone that ever tried to pull “oh pls, i need that, ive been farming for a year, pls i need”. Guess what buddy, I need it to, though luck.
Actually i dont find mesmers broken in WvWvW, if you can single them out from their clones they actually die pretty fast, also i noticed their clones move really slow when they want to shatter so it works pretty well by just moving around alot.
Guards: what are you gonna do, good bunker builds, if the go GC they die so fast its not even fun.
Warriors: broken in PvE with GC build, they try that in WvWvW again they die super fast, they are pretty good in balanced and bunkers tho.
Eles are by far the most borked atm cause they have EVERYTHING in 1 build: boons, mobility, CC, healing (whoever came up with that, go die kkthxbb?), and so many gtfobb buttons its kitten I mean i get that someone using a shield would block your attacks, and guards could go invoul, but getting block-block-block-invoul-invoul-invoul-invoul-block-block on eles is well… kitten On top of that they dish out pretty decent damage.
+ that aura that stuns you when you attack them, thats gotta go, because that is the single most idiotic thing in a MMO since party wide 1 shot kill 4kDP skill eles had in AION.
(edited by Hepan.2709)
Totally get where you’re coming from but there aren’t really a whole lot of options for wvw as a thief. If you don’t constantly stealth and move in and out of combat then we get flattened in no time at all. They need to completely retune this class if they make changes to stealth.
You mean get flattened like all other professions normally does? No other profession have as many mobility skills as the Thief. Problem is, you have no idea you have them, because you don’t need them, as long as you have stealth available. Try making a build that don’t use Cloak and Dagger, or any utility stealth skills, and then practice playing a Thief based on movement skills. It is very possible, if you just bother to learn it.
Actually, stealth IS kind of a problem only due to culling. Hopefully those ‘fixes’ they’re adding this month will help stop the culling enough to make it so people don’t complain about stealth.
Culling is only a problem when a lot of players are present, stealth is a problem regardless of how many players there are. Watch the sPvP video.
One could say that thieves are visible 100% of the fight; whenever they stealth and go invisible, they don’t fight, whenever they fight and hit stuff, they are visible.
In general, most stealth applied can last 3-4 seconds, in a fight with a melee oriented thief this is usually far less, as it usually doesn’t take that long to manoeuvre around a target to land a backstab or tactical strike. Not to mention that time spent in stealth is time not spent doing hurtful things.
… the Thief is built around hopping in-and-out of combat …
That’s what stealth is doing, exactly as described.
“If you don’t know when to back off, you’re going to die.”
If that is not your escaping thief, I don’t know what is. He says it, know when to back off, thief is not bound to stay in the fight if he knows it’s not going to end well.All of what you write here sounds perfectly fine on paper, but that is not how the Thief plays in practice.
The Thief usually goes invisible to further confuse a target, and to use the #1 stealth skill. Imagine if you used a shotgun, and every time you had to reload, you’d go invisible. There would then be no drawback to using the shotgun.
The Thief doesn’t “hop” in and out of combat. There’s a big difference between using stealth as a means to avoid damage for a short period of time, and using it to escape combat completely. One allows your opponent to react because of the duration limit, the other removes you from the game at your own will.
Ever played d/d ele? Much better mobility the thief, without sacrificing their class mech to cover distance (HS, IA, IS), playing thief without stealth is pretty much a death sentence, even bunker built we have no means to block, go invoul or other ways to completely negate damage. Hell we dont even do that in stealth, so spamming random 1 attacks on melee actually nets results more often then you think you just dont see it.
Escaping combat is not an issue, class design is. Some classes have mobility, some classes have OP heals, some have both, some have nothing. So stop crying nerf this, nerf that cause you rolled a badly designed class and ask for bug fixes/buffs for your class.
I have a necro, engi and thief currently 80 full gear. Thief in WvWvW is better in 90% of the situations atm because those other classed lack what thiefs have. Namely gap closers and/or escape mechanichs.
TL,DR: hate the game, not the players
Cant you put the skin on a weapon and sell that?
I play mainly a thief in WvWvW, never played a guardian but i never run from someone just cause he is a guardian.
It was mentioned that killing thiefs is easy cause aegis stops first attack: false, if i see you have aegis up ill SB 1 you to remove it, if i see its a bad guardian ill even use dancing dagger and unload on him after that and guards die just as any other class.
Also if a thief uses first attack from stealth like steal, killing him is oh so easy since the C&D will not stealth him-most guards brag about killing these guys and then go on saying what pro thief busters they are. You’re not, they are just crap thiefs.
Another point: if you’re runing without stun break in WvW, you’re going to have a bad time. Most thiefs that pull those numbers use skale and are actually very bad cause they cant hit kitten unless you stand still, so using stun break will get you out of that and free to counter them.
Another point: if you cant react that fast im sorry thats your fault and you desrve to die. I run a GC thief with shadowstep and get away from those kinds of thiefs regularly.
@Somoe.3621
…1. Power scaling is not all that’s relevant to a class’ damage output. Necro’s “only have two good power scaling attacks” but also have access to every Condition in the game, which they excel at applying (especially to multiple targets). It’s also worth mentioning that Necro’s can easily and simultaneously stack Might on themselves (Reaper’s Might, Siphoned Power, Blood Is Power) and Vulnerability on multiple enemies (Unyielding Blast, Death Shiver, Well of Suffering).
“Guardian scepter is bad? Dunno never seen one use it. Might be I guess, good thing they have staff huh?”
2. Necromancer’s Staff #1 is “too slow” for you? Good thing Necromancers have Scepter and Axe, huh?
3.Trying to discount Wells because “Oh, they’re PBAoE unless traited” is a flimsy argument at best.
4. I never said anything about how balanced or well designed these skills were because that’s not what the OP was talking about. The OP said Necromancers had the fewest combo fields/finishers in the game, which they don’t. This is a FACT regardless of current skill balance.
…
1. My post had nothing to do with balance or how situational you think a skill is.
The point was there are no instant gap closers on the necro…
2. Necromancers do in fact have instant gap closers; Dark Path, Necrotic Traversal (potentially), and Spectral Walk (potentially).
…making us the easiest class to run away from…
3.
- One of the few classes to get a constant +25% MS Signet
- Multiple ways to increase MS (traits) or grant Swiftness (skills + traits)
- Multiple ways to teleport
- Multiple ways to inflict Chill, both single-target and AoE
- Multiple ways to remove Boons that increase mobility, like Swiftness and Vigor, both single-target and AoE.
- Multiple ways to inflict Immobilize.
- Multiple ways to inflict Cripple, both single-target and AoE.
- Multiple ways to hard CC, both single-target and AoE (Knock-down, Knock-back, Fear, Daze, Sink)
- Fear is the only hard CC that can have its duration increased by a stat, Condition Duration (not to mention the +50% duration trait)I’m not necessarily saying Necromancers are the “inescapable-once-engaged attrition class” that Anet intended them to be but gap-closers aren’t the only thing that matters.
Im not even going to comment on all the points but here are some doozies.
We dont have all conditions, in fact we lack 2 of the most powerful: burn and confusion.
Gap closers: lets see you keep up with a thief, ele, warrior, mesmer(in combat) or pretty much any class tbh
CC: lol compared to anyone
fear: shortest duration in the game
knock down: golem charge is pretty much random direction
daze: not hard CC, target can still move
cripple: average
sink: really?
Combos: not that few blast finishers but when you have skill that only do that it pretty much fail, using staff 4 as finisher limits your already pretty crappy removal
fields: lol we have the crappiest fields, id trade either fire or water for everything we have atm
An average built/played d/d ele is one of the rare builds that doesnt get burst down by thiefs on regular basis.
Oh no something is hitting me, allow me to press my gtfowin button 3 times in a row. Couple that with heal pow you metion to have that is just a lolface class atm.
Sounds like an L2P ele issue really.
Ele, end of story.
I have an 80 necro, it fun to play and everything, but so UP it kitten Show me a necro who can kitten around with 4-5 enemies without getting killed? Who can get away when he wants? Who clears conditions when he wants? Stacks boons? Fears?
Most skills are in shambles..take dagger. Ele, thief daggers both have gap closers, mobility and targeted skills ( cast heartseeker on somebody behind you your thief jumps towards them, cast 2,3 on necro it does nothing if the enemy is even slightly to your side)
Sure you can go for full survival build, but its still underwhelming cause we have 0 skills that block, reflect or make you invoul, and you are in most cases just proloinging the unavoidable… I tried the jugg build for roaming and small party fights…meh…still got hit 7k backstabs on a regular basis.
To anyone saying the class i good just needs bug fixes, lol stop hitting yourselves in the balls and face it, the class sucks no matter how much fun it is to play it. Even the official response was: you have 50k HP, everything else about you gotta suck.
Man, it doesnt matter if you have 500k hp if all you can is throw wet paper towels and are passed around by anyone with a knockback like a pipe in a crack house.
Traits are a mess, you cant even take some into certain dungeons (yes im looking at you jagged horror), utillities are useless for the most part, the best thing are wells but in WvW that doesnt work, as they are easily dodged out off.
Weapons are situtational at best: staff marks dont activate on downed enemies and dragons, dagger spam 1 for 90%, axe dont use 1 EVER, etc. etc.
On top of that everything we do has kitten long cast times making it dodgeable as kitten tho most dont even bother since most skills tickle at best.
You’ll hear players bragging about beating sooo many players 1v1, of course you’re gonna beat someone if you play conditons and he has no condition removal, but for the most part necros are a pushover for anyone with 3 seconds to spare and no more threatning target in sight.
As for PvE: guys come on…its PvE, 95% of stuff works there, thats why its called PvE
There are some builds that are viable, but its not enough bang for your buck, compared to what other classes can dish out.
TL;DR: necro: fun; ele: fun, rewarding, contributing
do the math
Step 1: go to keep/tower under attack
Step 2: build arrow cart
Step 3: spam 1-2-3 to tag as many players as possible (siege damage-apart from golem-is from what i see static, so if you’re not 80 in rare+ gear this is the easiest way
Step 4: ???
Step 5: profit
Class mech:
idk some ppl trash it to death, its really not THAT bad, but it not THAT good either.
fear need longer duration(AGAIN), i mean seriously we turn into grim kittening reaper almost and that doesnt scare anybody?
2 needs to be changed completly, right now its an addaptation of staff 1. Maybe just faster projectile.
4 higher damage over shorter period, or make it so other skills can be used durring the channel.
DS needs immunity to certain conditions: namely fear, chill, cripple, imobilize. Stun and daze up for debate, im leaning towards staying as it is.
Make certain F acitons doable while in DS: revive, stomp etc.
Utillity: idk most of them do what they do, some are however completely without logic.
Corrupt boon: make it change boons into condis with the durration that was on the boon, make it apply the same stack of conditon it was as a boon, tho the current boon-> condition system doesnt really allow that. Randomize it maybe?
Poison cloud: meh. Just meh.
Wells: universal 45 sec CD without traits
Spectral: armor revamp, bit lower CD on walk (50?)-no longer necessery due to 25% speed buff from signet now me thinks
Signets: revamp completely.
Minions: make the CD timer start count down from the moment it spawns not the moment it dies, OR make them a tougher. A lot. Also fix AI. I dont see why is it so crap other classes minions/aides are nowhere nearly as kitten
Elite skills:
plague: faster movement would be nice, give it swiftness that end when you exit the transform.
Golem: fix all minions kthx.
Lich: Smaller avatar would be nice, as right now it paints a target like nothing else in the game. Also this i think need a straight up damage increase. Its our elite yet it does less damage then some classes can do by spamming 1-2-3.
New skills:
i think we need some more stuff like reaper of grenth human racial skill. Auras that affect enemies without taking away our weapon skills.
Something to the effect of invoul: block is obviusly out, however some spectral shield or change spectral armor to our dark side mist form.
+stuff mentioned higher up
Other stuff:
long cast times: this bugs the hell out of me. NOTHING we have is insta cast, everything has such obvious animations that makes it even easier to dodge.
Gap closers, gap closers, gap closers: yes that buff to the signet was nice, however that is only 50% of the actual mobility. We need this more then anything.
On an unrelated note, the recent buff did hurt thieves as masters of mobility, so i would not be completely against giving them more accses to swifness or maybe a 30% perma buff from signet.
I think giving us all of this would proly make necro OP but i would like to know what you think, and what changes you want most.
Discuss.
Ill get to traits over the weekend proly im a bit short on time atm.
Tl,Dr: read the post
Before we start, this not a QQ i want an i win button thread. Several build for necro are viable, however i still find the class more then not lackluster compared to other facesmash the keyboard and win classes.
So here are some changes i would like to see, and also comments on what you think.
I wont go so much in give more damage to x skill but more into the revamp of certain areas of the class.
Lack of burst:
common complain amongst necros, and even class description say attritons class conditions in some cases just dont cut it.
Proposed changes:
1. implode boons: scales with power, pretty much says it all…direct damage based on number of boons a target has. Problem: some classes/players dont stack them making this useless. Possible change from corrupt boon?
2. implode conditions: even with no specing into conditions we can still apply quite a few of them on a target, however they often get wiped before dealing any decent damage. It would be similar to the scepter skill, however it would wipe(implode) conditons when used. New utility, proly to powerfull to link it to a weapon skill.
Lack of damaging conditions:
namely fire and confusion
I can live w/o confusion, let that be mesmer speciality, and engi to some degree.
However there is no reason we dont have accses to fire.
Proposed changes:
New skill: boiling blood: you curse the target making its blood boil in their veins causing burning damage.
Could be linked to dagger 2, but dagger is power scaled, so i want to say focus maybe, or scepter.
Skill adaptaton: warhorn 5 and spear 3: locusts swarm your enemy crawling into their veins and causing burning damage.
New weapon: of hand torch obviusly
Boon accses: aside from might and swiftness, our boons are lets face it crap.
Changes: every time you transfer conditons to enemy you get the same number of boons they have in return-SAME number of stacks and durations, not some gimp 5 sec might when they have 15 stacked for 30.
Would not stack from multiple targets: staff 4 would not give you 15 stacks if you hit 3 targets with 5 stack each.
We desperetly need stability without transformation, some form of short invoul wouldnt be completely out of line as most classes can do it.
Weapons:
Axe: fix 1, rest is actually not that bad as ppl make it out to be
Dagger: fix 4 of hand, maybe some more damaging skills on mainhand since 1 spam is pretty boring.
Staff: longer fear on 5, 4 was discussed higher up, make marks trigger on downed enemys, altho im kinda 50/50 on this as setting a trap around a downed enemy for any would be ressers is funneh.
Make 1 fly faster to change it entierly to something similar to trident 1.
Scepter: good, maybe a bit faster chain on 1. Im pondering if grasping dead should be an imobilize or a short knockdown maybe?
Focus: good, 4 leaves something to be desired sometimes as if ANYBODY in the bounce chain dodges the entire thing goes to kitten.
Warhorn: biggest change needed imho. Need lower CD, with traits its tolarable, but that trait is so deep in a line it makes it more or less useless for some builds. Maybe drop the trait to 10point major or move it entierly.
Make 5 aoe swiftness: right now our horn is the only one that doenst do anything for our allies (lets face it, our entire class doesnt do much for our allies as far as boon applying goes). It could be done through locust sharing maybe? Treat it as an aura with a radious and any ally that tuches it gets sourounded by pretty little flying bugs that give him swiftness.
4 is actually really good: daze and interupt, and speced for it you are 1 mean dazing machine, however completly crap at everything else. Again: change the trait that affects it to lower tier and/or other tree.
Its a pretty crappy skill tbh…somebody might have stacked 15+might with vigor, rejuv, swift with 30 secs and all kinds of other boons and it turns them into these weak conditions…not thx.
Its good when guard use that skill that gives them all boons when they’re about to die, but even then boons are way to easy to come by for some classes and clensing them also isnt really hard.
They need a complete revamp of how boons turn into conditions…For instance vigor turns into bleeding, but guess what vigor stacks duration, while any bleed under 8-10 stacks is crap.
I also noticed that duration isnt transfered, so lets say 30 secs of swiftness doesnt become 30 secs of cripple, altho that may have something to do with how easy it is to remove conditions.
For instance, D/D eles are often running around with highly stacked boons, and on more then 1 ocassion of droping this skill on them thinking they’re dead now for sure, they would have 80% of conditions cleared and restacked in 7-8 seconds while im left there looking stupid for another 30.
tl,dr: crap skill, dont use
edit: gave me an idea…what if instead of turning the boons into condis this would “implode” boons, dealing damage for every boon, but also higher for stacked boons (might).
(edited by Hepan.2709)
Love it how ppl still complain about the single most IMBA class in the game being weak.
Yes you can look at it as hard to master, but having the largest skill selection also means something is always off CD, add that to perma 10+might, vigor, etc. etc. best mobility in the game with so many get out of kitten free cards its stupid, healing and CC other classes can dream about, the list goes on. Just count how many skills make you invoul…
I have a 75 ele in 70lvl rare gear and its the easiest class to play with ever. Fighting 1v2-3 is easier then my thief in 80 full exo. Im an average pvper at best.
Tbh, this class need a serious nerf not the thief everybody keeps crying about. Thief atm has the advantage of culling thats it. When/if they fix that it’ll show just what is what.
Im talking from a WvWvW PoV, as other parts of the game bore me to death.
Most boring WvWvW week ever…germans pulloing good numbers and for the most part we were outnumbered, but our guys are playing it so safe its borderline stupid.
We faced of in 2 large groups numerous times and our had a about a 80% fully geared true 80s and almost anyone i target in the enemy group had a green arrow yet our guys just randomly run away leaving 6-8 guys to fight…
Thats my main complain against Far shiverpeakers, you gotta stop playing it so safe. Yes its depends on what is going on around the map and how far away you are from th WP, its been happening so many times that a party im in pushes hard into enemy zerg and they start falling back, our guys just dont react and push with us, they regroup and it goes into the stalemate again untill they bring in more reinf and wipe us.
Example: yesterday between our garrison and bay keep on or BL: we pushed them back, they push us back, we push them again, but 60% of our guys were still on the walls when we were already fighting far out in the field, and since we lacked manpower to wipe them they regrouped in bay and wipe us.
This happened more then once, i mean seriously ppl need to stop being such sheep and start looking at what is happening. If you see 6 guys yelling in the front push, the commander says push, you dont stay on the wall casting random AoEs.
Tl;Dr: obsereve the battlefield, more aggresive playstyle.
How well do you think this would work by droping some V/T to gain some prec/crit dam but not investing in curses?
Also, droping 15 in DM and 5 in Spite to get 20 in SR to maximize DS duration/damage
Just out of curiosity how hard does this actually hit as it is?
DS1 over 50% on GC/tanky builds
Dagger1 chain on GC/tanky builds
Wells on GC/tanky builds
Lich form on GC/tanky builds
Just intrested in some average or ball park estimates.
meh..Good build.
but everytime i see one of these threads it always ends the same…i go into it think oh wow this might be something, then its the same everytime…using some unique, no longer obtainable or end end end game gear…i play WvWvW 95% of my play time, there is not a chance of me obtaining some of the items such as karkas, frac rings and such, so id be really glad if somebody made a build once a while that doesnt involve pointless PvE grind, but that fail from anet for the most part-yes i get WvWvW is suppose to be a gold sink, but when PvE/PvP rewards are so far off….im sorry something is F’d up.
I don’t know what you expect, if you want to be good, you have to put work into it. This isn’t World of Gimmecraft. This build is actually really nice. I made full Rampager’s gear and Chrysocola jewels, only invested about 3g for stuff I didn’t already have. For a full set of each, that’s cheap. Had weapons already from tokens. They aren’t ideal for this build, but they work until I get the ones I want. Even without having all this “end game” he has, I am still doing a ton better then I was. I am destroying stuff in PvE. Have yet to try it in WvW.
PvE…Running around naked works there for the most part.
Only high end fracs and some dungeons offer any challange really…I mean take CoF, you could really go naked in there and still not die.
Also gold isnt a problem in this game, the problem is PvE/PvP reward ratio and time invested. With 3 chars on 80 I can farm a dungeon armor inside 3-4 days (exception being Arah), while in WvWvW farming full invaders is proly gonna take 2ish weeks if i can average 100-150 badges per day. See the difference? That is not even metioning Invaders only comes in 1 variant.
@ Sheo
Im sorry but how do you call 15% only? While rubbing random upscaled and non geard players faces in the mud running around WvWvW isnt going to make a difference, the minute you come accros somebody that actually knows how to play those 15% are a huge factor.
On an unrelated note: please take a glance at jugg build thread ill post a Q there and would like some info
meh..Good build.
but everytime i see one of these threads it always ends the same…i go into it think oh wow this might be something, then its the same everytime…using some unique, no longer obtainable or end end end game gear…i play WvWvW 95% of my play time, there is not a chance of me obtaining some of the items such as karkas, frac rings and such, so id be really glad if somebody made a build once a while that doesnt involve pointless PvE grind, but that fail from anet for the most part-yes i get WvWvW is suppose to be a gold sink, but when PvE/PvP rewards are so far off….im sorry something is F’d up.
Im not saying you’re bad. But in every fight you use TG…what did you do for 3 mins? Hide in a bush?
Also getting a drop on somebody is a 99% win rate.
Also you state you consider yourself pro when you beat 3 true 80s vs 1. What kind of 80s? full exo? that know how to play? Yeah Ill give you some rep then. Untill then keep do what most of (us) thiefs do. Ganking lowbies (level, gear and skill wise).
Not all weapons are good at everything. Pistol already has atleast 2 pretty viable builds. P/D thats is by far the easiest builds to play in this game, and S/P with pistol whip is stil viable.
P/P is crap yes, how do you boost that with out making the other 2 retaredly OP? I have no idea. Traits maybe.
On the other hand look at other classes. They have much more kitten borked then thiefs do.
@OP: you can get 8 ticks with food,runes, sigils easy.
also giver weapons give 10% condi dur.
@everybody ranting over p/x build: its laughablely easy to play them as it is p/d especially…spamming 5-1-1-1-5-1-1-1.
Can you kill a single target faster the other burst builds? No. Can you kite everything to death without ever putting yourself within 2km of any harms way? Yes.
Melee/range balance at its finest. It would be pretty idiotic to burst something/sombody from 900 range to 10-20% HP 100% of the time.
I used pistol builds a while ago, it got boring within 1 hour.
@Sarrow: tests in the mists are lame. The results you get from pve gear are vastly superior. A tip: test on dummies in the fort in LA
@Daecollo: everything you said is lol. comparing classes has never been the way to go. the way you test it its bordeline…well stupid. 2 different classes, skills, weapon sets etc.etc., and dont care what a-net says about the holy trinity. ALL CLASSES ARE NOT THE SAME, ALL CLASSES CANT DO EVERYTHING EQUALLY WELL, ALL BUILDS ARE NOT VIABLE FOR/VS EVERYTHING. Period.
Also you’re argument about melee/range really takes the cake. Do you have any idea how easy it is to keep range on a thief? You do know gap closers work both ways right?
Steal: oh no that thing is getting to close to me. Target another mob/player/bunny bam you’re at 900 again
Infiltators strike: it has a gtfo skill already in it. Jesus.
Infitrators arrow: 1800 in under a second? Not a problem
Shadowstep: insta 1200 range, oh noes its coming at me again. click(return to original position) 1200 range again.
Yes most require a weapon swap, but why do you think you have that button? Decoration?
As far as pistol recast goes: yes its borked, yes its known. However thief p/x is still one of the easiest builds to play as it is, and now you want it to have on of the best damages in the game? No. Just no.
Honestly if they fix recast I expect them to lower (yes lower) base damage of #1 or (unlikely, since its mostly condi build) remove bleed-or maybe switch it to traits.
Yes that aesthetic, but still the guy that is suppose to be about dead stuff and “dark” magic has the crappiest fears out there? GG anet.
Fear needs to be made much more accsesible to this (and maybe other) classes or turned into an elite “I WIN BUTTON” skill.
attended(did all events and 2/3 of ancient)/no loot(huge lag issues;game was unplayable so I DC’d→manually)/no mail
on a side note: couple of guys I know got to loot the chest AND got the mail. Right now they’re sitting on upwards of 1kG on account of scoring 3 precursros.
GG anet.
I play a necro and have a blast(most of the time), and thats what game should be about. Unfortunately there is a very big BUT with this class. Gonna list a couple of things that come to mind
Master of conditions: oh please…we dont even have accses to burn and confussion the 2 by far most damaging conditions (ok yes we have confussion but you have to burn a utility and then spam staff 1=lame). We are left with bleed and poison. Serisly…who came up with that? Lets make a class that is supose to be master of attrition then give it 2 worst damaging conditions. Jesus. + conditons get wiped really easy
Access to boons: Lol. Just lol. Dont see why staff 4 doesnt transfer enemy boons to you. It pretty useless anyway…only blast finisher and full clense on 1 skill that is on a pretty long CD.
Condition removal: while not bad, its outdone by atleast 1 class (maybe more, havent played all). Again: master of conditions comes to mind and we are not top.
Class mech: #4 good, 1 good over 50% LF, rest…meh
Signets: serisly? somebody actually SPENT TIME coming up with that? Yes the revival is good…to bad it only works in PvE…on a 3min CD…yeah…usefullnes supreme
Elite skills: 1 is a retared bag of flesh, 1 makes you insta target for everyone in WvW, 1 is usefull..as long as you stay on #2.
Weapons:
- staff: clunky as hell for anything outside PvE, and WTF is with marks being visible to enemies? The whole weapon revolves about pre/positioning marks that everybody can then avoide since there is a BIG RED circle on the gound? Invisible marks till triggered for enemies kkthx?
Also #1? Lol.
- dagger: possibly highest damage output…with 1 skill..yeah…awsome. #2 tickles, #3 imobilize good, #4 lame as kitten, have to bounce 3 times to remove 3 conditions, blind kinda good, lots of classes can do better. #5 good-ish i guess
- Scepter: #1 chain to slow, #2 good, #3 kitteny…relies on dmg/cond when we cant stack THAT many of them…hits like a train with corrupt boon vs. a buffed target
- focus: good, maybe a bit longer durration on chill
- horn: utility weapon…lower CD would be awsome
Healing skills: fiend crap, consume cond. good if you get stacked on, otherwise crap, WoB: best, but still: Hi im anet, we are making a game thats about mobility, but you have to stand in a circle if you want full use of this skill kk?
Utility: signets: see above, minions: wont even go into that
- spectral: pull to slow projectile, walk is good, armor idk never found much use for it
- wells: imo best option atm, see comment @ heal skill
- corruption: plague good if you’re in a pty with many stackers, otherwise its just bleed and poison for the most part, BiP good, cloud good when combined with well bombing, corrupt boon worthless PvE wise, good-ish pvp
Downed/drowned: not the worst in the class, bottom 2 or 3 easy.
Underwater: /facepalm. Hey guys im drowning!!! What should i do?? Poison yourself.
Disclamer: most skills either work/dont work PvE/pvp and are really good at the other thing. For instance AoE bombing with wells and DS 4 + couple marks from staff= win vs. idiot npc; = full combo dodgeable with a press of a key in pvp
That reminds me: COMBOS: next to non-exsistent.
Conclusion: there were dozens of ways to go with the class that was supose to be about cheating/controling death, they chose one of the worst imo. Self ressing (from dead, not downed), minion army instead some guys you’d pick last in gym class, sucking life from enemies that actually has some use etc. etc.
In the end if you can make it work its EXTREMELY fun and rewarding, but tbh getting there feels like work sometimes and scarcly seems worth it, so in the end i often swap to mah engi and cheat at jumping puzzles with rifle 5.
Mah 2 cents.
When I have the starter backpack equiped, then switch to a kit (wich spawns another backpack item with a different look) and use any of the kit 1-5 it will show as if I have 2 backpacks equiped: 1 from the kit, and the stater item. They’ll clip through eachother, prior to using any of 1-5 skills everything looks good but right after the animation for the skill is over the starter backpack appears. Have tested it naked to see if it was some armor issue-same deal.
It is a minor cosmetic bug but still…looks fugly as hell.
Anyone else have the issue?
Lol, you do know raised/corupted human/oids are the main enemies in this game, right, and that everything you just said is a complete lorerape. The thing even remotely viable is the ghost thing, if it could be streched to something like: Zhaitan enslaved their dead bodies, now necros call on their power to aid them in their fight so they return as ghosts. But even that is streching it pretty far. Like really far. Like to a galaxy far, far away where vulcans helped humans defeat Sauron, who was in fact really a love child between The Lich King and Nicolas Cage.