Guild Wars 2

I absolutely agree that Condition Application SHOULD break stealth. Stealth in this game is now available to a majority of classes and should be a DEFENSIVE tool for escape/mobility NOT an offensive one that can be abused.

+1 for Stealth Break w/Condi Application

This is a great step in the right direction for a lot of reasons!

Reason 1: WvW ‘CAN’ in fact be balanced separately from PvE… let’s see a LOT more of that Anet

Reason 2: This was a great fix for epidemic, it’s still very strong but now has legitimate counter aside from blasting 10 Light Fields in .5 seconds.

Reason 3: Anet LISTENED to us WvW’rs! Not to be snarky but this honestly means a lot. I think we can all agree that WvW players want to see better communication across the board. We love this game and particularly this game mode, we WANT it to succeed, believe me!

Overall this ‘ninja’ patch makes me very happy for all the above reasons and it gives me hope for the future of WvW. I implore any/all Anet employees to continue on this train of positive change…
- One such simple change would be adding a Stealth ‘BREAK’ to Condition Application. This would throttle back Ghost Thieves to a much more counter-able place and even help against Condition Mesmers running Torch and/or PU.

beatthedown.2651:

As you might know Dire/Trailblazer stats are pretty broken right now in WvW. There are other stats aswell, but if you make a tankier build for example, you have to trade off offensive stats. You might outsustain a 1v1, but you can’t kill anything in return(maybe after 5+ minutes).

That’s simply not the case when you use dire/TB stats. Condi runes and food also profit from the free defensive stats.

Just look at the stats of this Mesmer setup( don’t mind the build, it’s an abomination)

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vhAQNAW7flsnhy0YjawDNwtGLAHkZCCdAQT9Fb95I+QpB-TlRIQBVUJIiU/RN6GAwTAQM7PUQlfkC4uxWA-w

As a Power Mesmer this would be a wet dream running around with 3k armor and 25k life while doing loads of damage. How can these stats still exist after 4 years?

My point would be that Toughness should be traded against Precision. Now we have the vitality equivalent to Rabid gear.

Will condi gear still be good? Yes it will, but not that broken since you have at least sacrifice some defenses.

Come on Anet. If you really want to improve WvW you have to do some gear balancing. This has been requested for years. This does not even need much development effort, since you did the same thing with Magic Find gear back in 2013.

First off, I like most everyone else do agree with this being an issue.

If the current gear/trinket system continue then stats like Dire and Trailblazer should indeed be tweaked if not changed altogether.

I would propose an overall condition DURATION nerf across the board in WvW thus making Expertise a much more needed stat. Power builds rely on 3 stats (Power, Precision, and Ferocity) not including whatever sustain stats they can squeeze out afterwards. The condition meta allows for players to go for one stat, Condition Power, while filling in the rest with heaps of Vit/Toughness/Healing Power. With more of an emphasis on needing duration players would be more inclined to take less tanky options for more 3 stat choices with Expertise.
*Also proposed would be swapping Trailblazer’s primary toughness stat with expertise.

Justine.6351:

Hoochieman.3107:

Justine.6351:

I don’t want an amulet telling me I need 500 vita when I only need 250.

WvW is an open world pvp format, gear disparity is implied and offers personal goals of ~ +5% stats.

If you want “unfair” gear stat combinations culled ask instead for gear stats as a whole to be trimmed in effectiveness so there are less extremes in chosen played roles. Pretty crazy to think balancing is realistic when players can add over 50% to their HP while losing ~10% dmg.

So you’re suggesting “trimming” Vitality/Toughness/Healing Power on current gear and trinkets in WvW? Or simply removing Minstrel, Nomad, Dire, etc altogether from WvW?

I actually mean trimming all gear stats by a %.

so the current 1381/961/961 ascended gear would be cut down to an effective 690/480/480 if under a 50% cut.

I suppose going the route of cutting only vita/toughness would be fine too but imo a lot of the problems people see in unbalanced has more to do with extreme builds. Nobody cries about a rev doing 7k cor or a guardian with 300 burn tics or an ele with 16k hp/2.5k armor/400 healing. Its when revs do 10k cor, guards with 500 burn tics and ele with 18k hp/3k armor/1k healing that people starting crying the game is not fun.

Vita itself is a pretty wild stat considering some classes can nearly double their hp by gear stat choice. Most sane people realize you don’t need more than 300-500 vita in wvw for most play simply because its so strong in effective % increase to their overall health pool.

By trimming all stats across the board uniformly you’re not really succeeding in anything proportionally speaking. Hard hitting classes should appropriately be glass cannons to compensate. Builds should not be able to build full bunker and still put out huge numbers.

Justine.6351:

Jeknar.6184:

My proposal is that the amulet allow you to distribute 3600 within all your atributes while not being able to go above 1400 in a single stat. (I’ve rounded the numbers for the sake of easier math).

I could get behind an idea where,

you get 3000 attribute points and can put a maximum of 1000 in each of 3 categories,

Offensive,
-power
-precision
-condition damage

Auxiliary,
-ferocity
-expertise
-concentration

Defensive,
-vitality
-toughness
-healing power

I would probably increase the conversion of precision to 25 = 1% among other balance changes of course.

I actually like something like this a lot too. +- Adjustments aside my only concern would be how hard/easy it would be to implement this.

DeceiverX.8361:

Hoochieman.3107:

Blaque,

I have yet to have someone compare a ‘viable’ build in WvW that is nonexistent in sPvP, whether the meta or not. The amulet system would allow you to swap stats on the fly versus only being able to use what you own. Let’s say you play a ‘theory-crafted’ Valkyrie thief with Exuberance runes and Furious Sharpening Stones in WvW currently…guess what? That build will still be viable post-amulet system.

I’ve managed to do very well playing D/D power signet core thief for the past few years, and this build absolutely mandates extremely granular tuning of the build to make work. Taking this into sPvP is pretty much suicide because it lacks damage in order to get a kill, lacks defense to take any hits/handle a condi bomb, and lacks utility while needed all while having a huge excess or shortage of stats depending on the selected amulet.

The same is said for my power reaper, which only performs as well as it does given very concise tuning when opposing most meta builds.

WvW in general to get this to work would also need to maintain its higher stats than sPvP’s existing amulets. The quicker pacing and bigger plays are a big part of the appeal to WvW skirmishing, and you’d lose a lot of people and build synergy if the stats were lowered. I’d actually like to see sPvP stats bumped up as I think it’d do wonders for enabling scaling builds to have enough to get a foothold.

If they just made a few generic nerfs like removing dire/TB and perplex/durability runes from the game I’m pretty certain a lot would open up. If they nerfed most of the elite specs, too, we’d be back in business for a ton of diversity.

For the record I’m a Power D/D DD main in WvW. I use Marauder/Pack Runes and have no trouble deleting most roamers…

Justine.6351:

I don’t want an amulet telling me I need 500 vita when I only need 250.

WvW is an open world pvp format, gear disparity is implied and offers personal goals of ~ +5% stats.

If you want “unfair” gear stat combinations culled ask instead for gear stats as a whole to be trimmed in effectiveness so there are less extremes in chosen played roles. Pretty crazy to think balancing is realistic when players can add over 50% to their HP while losing ~10% dmg.

So you’re suggesting “trimming” Vitality/Toughness/Healing Power on current gear and trinkets in WvW? Or simply removing Minstrel, Nomad, Dire, etc altogether from WvW?

Aeolus.3615:

Amulet system would make the builds less diversive, all DH would play medi trapper, i would be forced to medi trap and use utilities that i dont like.

Players would be playign what they play on spvp imo that is limiting the game and take options out of the to force player to play X way.

I dont do gw2 pvp cause i hate how i have to play in a way that i dont like, this would be the ultimate fatality to leave the game.

I’m sorry, what happened to Shout Guardian, Burn Guardian, Symbol DH build, Pure Medi DH build? All of these are more than viable. Stats won’t change that, traits/utilities will however.

Nikki,

OK I have to stop you there. You literally admitted yourself that you’re “OCD” about min/maxing stats. You’re therefore an exception not the rule to which balance should be factored. Even Jeknar’s idea of a ‘blank’ amulet with the ability to set the stats to whatever you want is STILL not customized enough for you, yet your suggestion is Legendary Armor…?! I’m sorry but you literally are going the opposite direction of making WvW accessible to the public.

Bigpapasmurf.5623:

Hello,

While I only have 1 full set of Ascended gear, as an avid thoerycrafter it gets expensive testing builds, needing to make/but armor sets/runes….etc so this would def save me a lot of gold….however as some have stated, this would reduce build diversity, not only to min/max (which many many people do and enjoy as it give them the most of their build). Imo I prefer to use different stat combos and thats more important to me than losing gold for getting gear.

This wouldn’t “break” WvW if what you are suggesting gets implemented, however for those like me that enjoy making builds and testing them, but no matter how you look at it or what is said, the diversity will drop and builds will almost be as stale as in PvP.

I find builds limited in PvP, even when we had more ammy’s to choose from. Thats why I don’t PvP but WvW…freedom to make the build the way I want without restrictions (and I know for a fact there are those that feel the same way)

I commend your idea and appreciate you trying to find ways to enhance/change WvW in a positive way, however I am going to have to do the Canadian thing and politely disagree and apologize for such.

Fair enough, thanks for the response PapaSmurf.

I take it the biggest complaint thus far is the need for diversity. I’m not entirely sold on the fact that Amulets = Less Creativity but I do understand the gist of what has been said. I suppose the competitive game modes will have to lean either towards true ‘balance’ or complete build freedom. I personally don’t think the two of those entities can coexist without a seriously overhauled system.

Nikkinella,

If you don’t mind me pressing, I’d like it if you could share a build with me that you fear would no longer be viable with the amulet system? I genuinely want to know exactly what critiques of the system there are. As mentioned above as well, many new amulets can be implemented into WvW that are NOT in sPvP at the present time…

Nikkinella.8254:

It would be the final nail in the coffin that would get me to leave this game for good. No thanks. The amulet system is the exact reason I don’t like spvp in the first place. I’d rather make my own builds and be able to mix and match stuff to my own personal tastes. Just nerf the hell out of conditions and wvw will be fine. We don’t need amulets for that.

Thanks for the response Nikki.
Sounds like your opinion is set in stone, I can respect that. I’m not entirely sure why the amulet system has gone so far as to “scare” you away from sPvP but that is your position. I would like to repeat the fact that runes, sigils, food and utility would still be a factor in ‘designing’ your build as well. My position is that of a long-time devoted connoisseur of WvW and I’m tired of seeing players leave or never set foot into the game-mode because of the gear treadmill or balance issues. This is my suggestion to help alleviate that.

Jek again,

In this current meta a 5 man group (let’s say) can run 2 Trailblazer Necro/Reapers with Epidemic. Pause. They can then be supported by an all-star cast consisting of a Minstrel Tempest, Minstrel Shout Guardian, and let’s say a Cavalier/Marauder Revenant running Malyx/Jalice. Not to name names or throw any ‘roaming’ guild under the bus but this exact comp is to be expected in our current “meta”. Killing or countering a team like this, without numbers is very difficult to say the least.

With an amulet system reducing Minstrel to Clerics or Magis or even Mender’s, Trailblazer’s to Carrion, and etc we can start to see counter-play to groups such as this. By no means would that comp become useless, it would simply have an exposed hide for players to take advantage of.

Taking that same 5 man group comp again with NO armor whatsoever they still can upkeep Fury, Might, Protection (40% with Temp), Rite of the Great Dwarf (50% DMG REDUC), Stability, Regen, and Resistance… A simple ‘nerf’ if you will to stat balance by implementing an Amulet system would be an excellent start to truly balancing WvW.

Hey Jeky,

First off thanks for offering an alternative rather than simply saying no. OK so I do and I don’t like the alterations you made.
I like the “idea” of having a blank amulet that lets you pick whatever combination of stats you want, however, I think you’ll basically end up with a build very reminiscent to the Celestial amulet which was removed for a reason. I wouldn’t mind (nitpicking here) taking a ‘base’ amulet like Marauder for example and “adjusting” the stats of it, e.g. pushing vitality up more at the cost of precision going down or something. To me though that seems a lot harder to implement into the game than simply adopting the current system in sPvP.
Obviously at some point ‘customization’ will ultimately lead back to pushing the bunker/condi meta more and more into prominence without checks and balances.

Hey Ni In,

Thanks for your input. I’m not exactly sure what you mean by ‘use PvE equipment freely’. WvW is indeed a beautiful chaotic game mode that is ripe with uneven/even fights. I don’t think unifying stats would ever affect the equality of a fight as it will always come down to strategy, numbers, builds, skill, ping, etc. This suggestion is one that promotes bringing new players to the game mode while also allowing you to “freely” play the associated gear that may or may not be what you use in PvE.

Stand The Wall,

Thanks for your points. I would also agree that we merely adopt the sPvP Amulet system whilst also adding new stats to the game mode. We can go nuts! My general rule is that the ‘Sustain Trinity’ is at a minimum when it comes to stat combinations (Toughness/Vitality/Healing Power).
In regards to when you can change your build that’s completely up for grabs. I would say anytime you’re out of combat but I’m sure being limited to a Keep’s Presence would work too.

Blaque,

Thanks for responding. Yes I certainly do remember the time when amulets in sPvP allowed you to attach ‘jewels’ to them giving increased stat diversity. That same jewel idea could be implemented if that was an overwhelmingly popular suggestion.

OK on to the min/maxing argument. Like I’ve suggest all of the current runes/sigils in the game would be available with this system. Food and Utility would also be available. The only class that I can imagine needing the most tweaking would be a D/D Elementalist roaming build that requires as close to 30% Crit Chance and a decent amount of toughness/vit/healing power with it’s primary stat being power respectively. D/D ele could still be implemented by “experimenting” with let’s say Marauder amulet + Durability Runes, or Mender’s with Wurm Runes, etc etc. I’m still not really sold by your min/max argument as people will ALWAYS find optimal builds regardless of the system.

Clown,

The sense of accomplishment? No but seriously I have 4 sets of Ascended gear for various toons so I can understand the desire for compensation. PvE will always/should always be the place to put to use various stat combinations. If ANET really wanted to reimburse us perhaps they could allow a one-time free stat swap for ascended gear. It’s a bittersweet exchange for balance in my opinion.

Peazomanco,

I think most full-time WvW’rs would agree that it’s in need of some sort of attention/balance. I also agree that generally speaking ‘big’ changes at once bring issues. However I would argue that this would strictly affect stats in a not-so-big way. I’m not suggesting that the healing stat is removed from the game or anything of the sort. sPvP in my opinion is in it’s healthiest rendition this season and I think a lot if not some of the balance is due to the removal of stats like Celestial and Dire/Trailblazer.

Blaque,

I have yet to have someone compare a ‘viable’ build in WvW that is nonexistent in sPvP, whether the meta or not. The amulet system would allow you to swap stats on the fly versus only being able to use what you own. Let’s say you play a ‘theory-crafted’ Valkyrie thief with Exuberance runes and Furious Sharpening Stones in WvW currently…guess what? That build will still be viable post-amulet system.

Hey Thomas,

Thanks!

1. You’re right, optimization is one of those terms that will ALWAYS be associated with video games with the slightest amount of competition. I think diversity more comes down to traits/utilities and less on stats in my personal opinion.
2. WvW game mode tactics does currently come down to the efficient Zerg. I personally frequently solo and small group roam and love the chaotic nature of the giant WvW landscape and mentality. I don’t think switching to an amulet system will miraculously cause people to leave zergs and go out and roam, BUT I would like to imagine it will give smaller groups more of an opportunity to challenge said zergs.

Hey Yuffi, thanks for the reply.

I would 100% agree that WvW is kind of a sandbox or playground to test out builds. I can’t say that that would go away with an amulet system. Can you elaborate more on why it would stifle creativity? To me the creativity you’re describing only comes from the min/maxing of sustain stats.

Purpose of Post: To discuss bringing the sPvP Amulet/Rune/Sigil system into WvW (with suggested tweaks).

Purpose of Suggestion: To remove the gear treadmill wall necessary to compete and experiment with builds in WvW, balance the overwhelming bunker/condi meta, and to introduce new players to the game mode that wouldn’t otherwise play for above reasons.

Proposal: To reduce the amount of balancing needed in WvW by promoting active gameplay and strategy over simply ‘powercreeped’ stats. With the removal of amulets in sPvP such as Celestial, Minstrel, Nomad, Dire, and Trailblazer builds are less bunker oriented and more damage or utility oriented.
- Amulets such as Cleric and/or Magi’s could be reintroduced to WvW to compensate for the ‘need’ for sustain classes in zergs or organized GvG/Roaming guilds.
- Food/Utility I will argue SHOULD remain in the WvW game mode.
- Players are leveled to 80 in this game mode only, just like in sPvP.
- ALL runes and sigils are available, although some could be ‘unlocked’ with gold or Heroic Notaries purchases as an example.

Results if Proposal is implemented: Fresh faces to WvW, stat balance, and the ability to swap builds/classes on the fly. First step in separating WvW balance from PvE and closer to sPvP thus allowing ANET to go absolutely nuts with it’s PvE balance.

Expected Arguments:
1. What’s the point of ascended gear if amulets are instated?
– ANET has a great thing going on with FashionWars2. People will always be able to chase after their cosmetic and farming dreams in PvE.

2. Will my Dire PU Mesmer build still be viable?
– Yes it will. Amulet choices such as Carrion, Rabid, Rampager, and maybe even Viper are all still available.

3. Won’t “Power Burst” Classes such as Thief and Mesmer become the new ‘OP’?
– Similarly to sPvP they are excellent at killing…but not so much at sustain or utility. The same applies to WvW.

4. Won’t this kill build diversity?
– This will allow you the freedom to experiment on the fly with different builds and classes and will bring a resurgence of long lost power classes that can’t currently compete with the bunker/condi meta. Can anyone say “hello rifle engineer!”?

5. What about classes like the DH trapper that seem to ‘plague’ sPvP?
– This is more of an opinionated question but consider that 80% of sPvP play takes place ON points…aka chokes where AoE classes shine. WvW is MUCH bigger so the ability to roam/kite are more prevalent.

6. Will this make the Pirate Ship meta a thing again?
– Probably, yes. Is that a bad thing though?

Final Thoughts: When you think the name GuildWars, don’t you immediately think of a game mode in which guilds can do battle on the fields of glory?! Let’s Make WvW Great Again!