Guild Wars 2

I think adding story would not work very well with the existing heart structure. First, there is no need to talk to anyone to complete a heart, and no reason for players to think they should bother this one time unlike in the dozens of other hearts. Second, there is no way to ensure players do hearts in any particular order. Level is no guarantee even without downscaling and is meaningless to level 40s in a 25-35 zone.

I do think hearts should be reworked somehow, or at any rate some kind of open world activity besides events should be introduced. However, this should not be a revamp of old zones but rather part of new zones. The expansion seems to be nothing more than a few level 80 “What if Cursed Shore and Silverwastes had a baby?” areas. This is baffling to me. The best thing about the Silverwastes is that people are always doing the Silverwastes. If there are 4-6 zones that are all similar, will that still be true? How many people are still in Dry Top, anyway? That’s with just two of the new style zones.

Does the game really need several more of those? Does it need more level 80 zones period? Not only is there a new profession coming, and not only do many players delight more in making alts (and buying slots) than doing level cap content, but also the downscaling system means lower level zones are still usable by 80s. Creating new (and better, one hopes) leveling zones can be far more effective than piling on event-only cap zones.

As it is, hearts seem to be unloved by players and developers, judging by their abandonment. Some of the problems are:
- While across all hearts there is a variety of activities, each heart feels repetitive.
- While across all hearts there are many and varied rewards, a given heart probably offers nothing to the person doing it (who gives up even checking before long).
- Each heart has its own NPCs with their own text, but the sheer number of them soon discourages players from talking to them or paying attention to the story behind the heart.
- Hearts theoretically guide players to events, but there are only so many events and many of them are far away from hearts (often too far to show up on the minimap).
- Heart completion bonuses discourage players from participating in events that take them away from the hearts even though those events are designed to move them around the zone in an organic, fun way.

My own suggestion is simple: Mega Hearts. Many of these problems can be ameliorated by heart consolidation. A new zone has 2-5 hearts rather than 10-20. Each heart covers a large part of the zone. All events taking place within its area are visible to all players within it, and mobile events go to locations within the heart, which for a given heart includes different sorts of areas (such as field, forest, town, etc.) Each heart can be filled by methods taken from multiple of the old hearts. Each heart has a full set of rewards: Rather than offering a bad amulet, two cooking ingredients, a soup recipe, and a pistol, one heart in the zone might have all the ingredients and recipes for level 100-200 tradeskills while another has complete armor and weapon sets for levels 15-25. The rewards are themed for the locations they cover, so there could be a bazaar heart that offers toys and consumables while a fort in the same zone has armor.

In order to keep players interested but not overwhelmed, Mega Hearts have multiple completion levels. For example, filling it once gives white and green gear, twice blue gear with upgrades installed, thrice higher level gear, etc. At higher completion ranks, the NPCs have different text and allow players to start different events. Eventually these changes cap out, but the hearts can still be refilled and give some kind of bonus for each completion, much like PvP reward tracks.

The idea is to offer players more condensed content and rewards which encourage them to pay attention to where they are and what they are doing rather than bouncing from heart to heart (or event to event) for xp and karma while complaining when one takes a little longer than usual. People would still do that, of course, including me, but the objective here is to maximize happiness, not minimize unhappiness. Ideally, players would develop some fondness for hearts they spent a lot of time in and from which they took many rewards they liked, and even revisit them and hang out with other players while doing events. and such.

That’s my little idea, but in any case I am convinced level 80 events alone are not a good way to expand the game and that the main problem with hearts is the amount of them.

Let me see if I understand this correctly.

1) You and your fiancé played for a short time and quit.
2) You tried playing the game again (before the NPE) and got heavily invested in it.
3) You persuaded your fiancé to play the game again and he stuck it out because of you and your guild.
4) Hurrah for the NPE!

Wait, what does the NPE have to do with this? You fell in love with the old experience, and your fiancé is playing because you are. To be an NPE success story, there needs to be some connection between the NPE and new player retention. Yet it wasn’t the locked downed state that kept you playing, because you did that before it was locked. As for inventory management, is it the NPE that fixed the problem for your fiancé, or you and your guild? I think if you look at the actual changes, you’ll find it is the latter. Quite frankly, this sounds like a success for the old experience.

TheBlackLeech.9360:

You are telling me that, you are complaining that something was changed, and you would rather have it be the way it used to be…. when you had no idea how boring and dull it was before? Usually people make a choice after they have experienced both options. Sounds like you have a typical case of “the grass always being greener,” imho.

Not only did I not tell you that, I did not tell you anything which could be reasonably construed as that. I said the current system is bad. I never said the old system was good, precisely because I never used it. The suggestion I made was to unlock traits on level up, which is not the old system.

Sorry that you believe I’m using etc. improperly, lmao… but you are clearly forgetting every way you could obtain skills in Guild Wars.

Do you really want to talk about skill tomes, which were added in the game’s old age so players wouldn’t even have to bother doing the tiny amount of work it took to get a new skill?

You needed to get to said outpost first. Many times, it was well out of the way of any place you needed to go to complete the story, or even complete a quest. Often times the only reason why you would even want to go to that outpost was to access the skill trader there… and getting to the outpost…. or the zone that a boss was located was most of the challenge.

That simply isn’t true. The handful of skill outposts that weren’t part of a quest were at most within one zone of a place that was.

First of all…. Guild Wars and Guild Wars 2 map completion were very different… and comparing AB to WvW is nonsense. WvW is a zergfest where upscaled newbies in starter gear can steamroll experienced players as long as they stick to the herd.

And that’s why it’s perfectly reasonable to have a trait tied to the Overgrown Grub. Wait, what? What are you even arguing?

Second, capturing an elite skill in GW1 was not guaranteed, due to the boss spawns being randomized. I’ve heard of horror stories where players tried for absurd amounts of time to find bosses (such as Maw the Mountain Heart in the middle of the Southern Shiverpeaks in order to cap Feast of Corruption)

And even that minor amount of lack of player control seemed excessive to Anet, which is why elite skills were given fixed boss spawns post-Prophecies. You’re not really helping your case here, whatever that is.

Third, We are comparing apples and oranges by comparing GW1 and GW2 if you haven’t realized. They are both different. But the fact of the matter is that they are both fruit… the same way GW1 and GW2 are both games…. and in both games you had to actually EARN the ability to use more skills/traits. The fact that GW2 requires you to do different things than you had to do in GW1, does not change the fact that you are earning them… same as in both games.

You mean like you had to EARN skills in Guild Wars by buying them and EARN traits in Guild Wars 2 by buying them? You mean like you had to EARN attribute points in Guild Wars by leveling and we could EARN traits in Guild Wars 2 by leveling?

I don’t think you have a case at all. I think you’re just here to tell us about how superior you are to the rest of us because we’re all just jaded veterans who don’t want to work for anything unlike in Guild Wars 1, even though many of us are new players who are only playing this game because we were just playing Guild Wars and thought maybe it was time to try the sequel seeing as we already had every single skill for every single profession and all.

TheBlackLeech.9360:

Adding more depth to character development is a definite must, and the only reason players are opposing it is the fact that they have played the game since before the patch.

I didn’t play before that patch. Many players in this thread didn’t play before that patch. There have been 2 sales since then, and a lot of new players leveling for the first time. Your theory is unfounded.

In guild wars 1, players had to go out and explore the world, finding skill vendors, capturing elite skills from dead enemies, etc.

The only “etc.” is quests that gave skills. If there are only three items, you don’t need etc.

“Finding skill vendors,” you say? They were in outposts. You didn’t have to find them. You went to an outpost, talked to the skill guy, and bought skills. That was it. You also got skill quests from people in outposts. The only method of skill acquisition that required going out and exploring the world was the Signet of Capture.

And those elite skills, were they on timers? Were they in the middle of Fort Aspenwood or Jade Quarry? Did you have to get a cartography title for them or vanquish a zone?

Or in fact did you only have to run out to a single boss and kill it? Yes, that’s what you had to do. It usually took a few minutes. There were however some bosses placed within missions. Normally missions took about half an hour, with some more like an hour and some (mostly in Nightfall) much shorter.

That’s it. That’s how skill acquisition worked in Guild Wars. It was in no way comparable to trait acquisition here.

2) Keep giving feedback and be patient as this is a big ship and it takes time to steer it.

Sure!

- Trait tier level increase: As has been noted, traits unlock at the same time as elite skills. A level between utility unlocks would be better for the stated purpose.

- Unlocking traits: With this system, I was definitely not “learning about traits, how they worked, or understanding the options.” Perhaps it was envisioned that players would gradually and organically unlock traits. However, the requirements make that impossible. Here is how it actually worked:

1) Unlock traits, put one point in the first line because Power increases damage
2) Unlock major traits, find out I don’t have any in the Power line. Look at the ones I do have, shrug, put another point in Power
3) Look at trait unlocks ingame, get pointed by the telescope to places on the map I haven’t uncovered which are surrounded by places I also haven’t uncovered. Check wiki, find out I can’t do any of them.
4) After leveling up a bunch and unlocking Master tier, start unlocking Adept traits.
5) Realize unlocking all skills would take forever, use the internet to find out which are the best for my class so I can prioritize those.
6) Get most of the good ones, decide to ignore the rest until 80.
7) Get to 80 and still only have a handful unlocked. Start unlocking the rest willy-nilly.
8) Buy the last few once I can afford it, which is a long time thanks to the skill point cost

The key part is that I unlocked the vast majority of traits once I was level 80, once they no longer had meaning. I didn’t even look at what they did when I unlocked them. It was just a checklist. Adept, Master, and Grandmaster were all jumbled together, because at 80 they’re all equally easy to unlock. The different lines were all jumbles as well. The only ones to which I paid close attention were the ones the internet told me was good. I still don’t know what line most of my traits are in or what most of them do. It’s just a mass of “Inflict some condition or gain some boon sometimes for some reason.”

At the end of the day this system has helped spread out the teaching of the system and the feeling of accomplishment through acquisition . . .

No. It hasn’t. What I learned came from outside the game and a little PvP experimentation, and I did not feel any sense of accomplishment. The game might as well have told me to collect 65 wolf paws.

I understand my utility skills better, because as I leveled up I could just look at them, guess which was good, spend skill points I got from leveling, and try them. If traits simply unlocked at level 15 and gave me one trait per level it would work much better for the stated purposes than the current system, which makes trait unlocking a level 80 grind.

It’s true this system isn’t overwhelming for new players. It’s underwhelming. It presents itself in a way that makes me not care about the individual traits and resent the system as a whole. It made leveling past 30 an unpleasant experience when I tried to play in the way the system encouraged, such as completing Lornar’s Pass and waiting around for events. I had a much better time when I was ignoring it. It was an obstacle to having fun. The trait system is the worst character progression system I can remember in any video game I’ve ever played, and I played “The Last Remnant.”

That’s my comprehensive list. Not coincidentally, it is almost a comprehensive list of trait unlocks as well. I didn’t even include my personal dislike of the personal story, since I would have borne that if it weren’t for all the other trait nonsense. At least that’s under the player’s control.

To summarize, very few traits can be unlocked at a level appropriate for the trait according to the system itself. Many unlocks are subject to events beyond the unlocker’s control, whether because of a timer or the vicissitudes of WvW. Several unlocks require effort wildly disproportionate to the reward, to wit map completion. Some unlocks are almost impossible to find for someone just trying to complete them, requiring in-depth exploration or external resources.

One might argue I’m being unfair by judging levels the way I am, using the minimum level you can slot a trait. For one thing, I’m not; I left off a few unlocks that are only a couple levels higher than the minimum. For another, I’m speaking based on experience with the system. Matters would be different if there were some trait unlocks that sat at a higher level than the minimum, but almost all do. It was not unusual to have no traits of a given tier in a given line, especially since I always had more traits unlocked in some lines than others without any conscious effort to do so. (Note how many fewer complaints I have about Line 2 than the others.) Staring at an empty trait slot is more than a little disheartening and makes unlocking feel less like progressing and more like catching up.

For a quick fix I recommend moving unlocks to the personal story starting at a much lower level (such as 30 when the trait window pops up) and tying more traits to discovering areas, completing mini dungeons, and doing jumping puzzles in places like Lion’s Arch rather than WvW.

JonPeters.5630:

1) Give us a list of the most offensive trait unlock locations.

Speaking as a player who recently unlocked all traits under the new system and didn’t play under the old system, here’s my list.

Line 1 (Power/Condition)
I: Requires completion of a level 55 story step for a level 36 trait
II: Requires completion of a level 80 WvW event for a level 36 trait
III: Requires hours of effort equating to ten levels of content for a level 36 trait
IV: Requires an event to be active. I bought this one.
V: Requires hours of effort ending at level 50 for a level 36 trait
VI: Requires a level 42 event to be active for a level 36 trait
VII: Requires completion of a level 80 WvW event for a level 60 trait
VIII: Requires completion of a level 70 dungeon for a level 60 trait
IX: Requires exploration of a level 71 area for a level 60 trait
X: Requires a level 68 event to be active for a level 60 trait
XII: Requires an event to be active
XIII: Requires an event to be active

Line 2 (Precision/Ferocity)
II: Requires completion of a level 50 dungeon for a level 36 trait
III: Requires a level 43 event to be active for a level 36 trait
IV: Requires hours of effort ending at level 40 in an enormous zone for a level 36 trait
V: Requires an event to be active
VII: Requires completion of a level 80 WvW event for a level 60 trait
XII: Has bizarre hit detection and is almost impossible to understand without the wiki
XIII: Requires an event to be active

Line 3 (Toughness/Boon)
I: Requires defeat of a level 43 veteran for a level 36 trait
II: Requires completion of a level 50 event for a level 36 trait
III: Requires completion of a level 80 WvW event for a level 36 trait
IV: Requires completion of a level 58 event for a level 36 trait
V: Requires hours of effort up to level 40 for a level 36 trait
VI: Requires completion of a level 36 trait
VII: Requires completion of a level 80 WvW event for a level 60 trait
IX: Requires an event to be active
X: Requires completion of a level 70 story step for a level 60 trait
XII: Requires an event to be active
XIII: Requires an event on a 3-hour timer to be active

Line 4 (Vitality/Healing)
I: Are you kidding with this? In order to get a trait used mostly for jumping puzzles you need to complete one of the longest, hardest jumping puzzles with lots of falls. In other words, if you can get this trait, you don’t need it. What is more, this is a WvW area, which means people who know this is a trait unlock can and do hang out here to camp uplevels. Seriously, how did this make sense to anyone?
II: Requires completion of a level 80 WvW event for a level 36 trait
IV: Requires hours of effort up to level 45 for a level 36 trait
VI: Requires completion of a level 60 event for a level 36 trait; I wouldn’t use this as an example of a fixed trait unlock, because it’s ridiculous
X: Requires completion of a level 80 story for a level 60 trait
XII: Requires an event to be active

Line 5 (Condition/Profession)
II: Requires an event to be active. I bought this one.
III: Requires completion of a level 59 story for a level 36 trait
IV: Requires hours of effort up to level 50 for a level 36 trait
VI: Requires an event to be active
VII: Requires completion of a level 71 trait which almost requires the wiki (the telescope does not point to the teleporter needed to enter the lab) for a level 60 trait
VIII: Requires a level 70 event to be active for a level 60 trait
IX: Requires an event on a 3-hour timer to be active
X: Requires an event to be active. I bought this one.
XI: Requires completion of a ridiculous WvW event that your server could well get mad about your even attempting
XIII: Requires an event to be active

Carighan.6758:

@Jagdfygar:
If you’re 80, and whatever task you have to do annoys you, just buy it from the vendor.

I mean I’m not saying I like the current implementation (the idea is good, however!), but why the frustration if you can skip it?

I can’t. Do you realize that buying all traits costs 43 gold and 360 skill points? There aren’t that many skill points if you level to 80 and do every single skill challenge. While I was in Fireheart Rise, I did another unlock plus all the skill challenges in the zone so I can buy some of the second-tier traits that require personal story completion and third-tier traits. Those alone are obscenely expensive (1.5 or 3 gold plus 10 or 20 skill points each, for crying out loud), but I’m resolved not to do another twenty-ish personal story instances or try to kill the overgrown grub.

I don’t know how long you’ve been playing this game, but maybe I need to recalibrate your understanding of the new player experience. When I hit level 80, I had level 80 exotic armor, some level 80 exotic weapons (no scepter, no torch, level 76 fine spear, rare trident), one ascended amulet and rare trinkets otherwise, 0 gold, 0 skill points, and not all skills unlocked including 2 elites. Buying trait unlocks isn’t one fewer ivory backscratcher for a fresh 80. It’s something I had to think about very carefully, because I can’t afford many. As of today, after completing Fireheart Rise, I think I can just about buy all the third-tier unlocks I want to, and that’s a couple weeks after hitting 80. The costs are exorbitant.

I’ve been playing about a month and a half. I’ve been 80 for a good while, but I still have more than a dozen traits locked. Today I decided to unlock one of them by killing Vexa and her golem in Fireheart Rise.

In addition to the normal unlocking fun such as needing the wiki just to figure out how to get to the trait (it turns you have to use a teleportation portal halfway across the map, but of course there’s no reason to indicate that to the player) and hoping I can solo a level 71 event (this is for a second-tier trait by the way, so a level 60 character can do this easily I’m sure) there was an exciting new twist.

Apparently the new Living Story update ties some scavenger hunt to Vexa’s Lab. Not only does this mean I had to do the jumping puzzles while my camera was filled with Charr butt, but also completing the event causes a minidungeon reset which kicks everyone out. In other words, getting that trait meant causing a bunch of players excited about new content to get thrown out mid-jump so they could experience the joy and wonder of the platforming all over again. There’s also a gatekeeping event where you have to kill a bunch of mobs that come out in waves. Slowly.

Of course, people killed Vexa twice before I got there, so I wasn’t feeling too charitable. In any case, another group started attacking before I did, so I joined and got credit. I Portalled some people through the puzzle before that though, so I’m a good person, right?

The entire trait system is possibly the worst character progression system I’ve ever seen and almost made me quit a couple times, refraining only because of the Guild Wars name, but this was a new low. Did anyone think about the possible conflict between players who need to reach the end for whatever it is they were doing and players who need to unlock traits? Does your Living Story team even know about the trait unlocks? Maybe they thought their legs were being pulled when they were told about it. Nobody would implement a system like this, after all.