Showing Posts For Joel.8705:
to be honest i dont see how they could impliment roaming as a rewardable thing to do the problem i think that wvw has had for the longest is that they cant decide if the want to go for an organized playmode or a sandbox and therefore the rewards for wvw as a whole has been sufering for years.
DA is not mandatory like trickery is…
I haven’t run DA in months (playing power), and I win 1v1s far more often then not. DD/Trick/Acro or DD/Trick/SA. D/P Staff or D/P P/P
We are not talking about one v one im talking about thiefs role in pvp as +1 where its no point to take SA over DA. I dont see the use of SA in wvw either but that is my prefrence.
I’ve seen SA power thieves with high burst. Just saying…
To give up DA for SA i not a valid option DA offer the most boost to you burst 30% damage and SA only gives you perma stealth and some bad condi cleanse i have more use of the condi cleanse from shadowstep then i have from the whole SA trait line..
Not to mention to have impro with two plasma is also a beter tradeoff for condi resistance.
Long stealth from SA and Shadow Refuge. Access to mobility via Shadowstep.
+1 is easy because you don’t need to be max DPS to effectively +1 if you know what you are doing.
To have as big burst damage is very important to + 1 thats why old shatter mesmer and thief was good at plus one and thats why not evrey class has the potential to be a good plus one. So you are right not high damage but decent burst is need thats why taking SA over DA is not valid.
(edited by Joel.8705)
Ask the people who complain, not me – I say the stealth duration D/P has got at hand is too much and should be adressed. There’s other issues with D/P but lets stay on topic stealth.
Why do you think it is too much? How did you come to such conclusion.? How much is too much? Who are you to dictate the numbers?
Is it really rocket science? I already said that I have 12 s of stealth without SA with D/P and 4 leaps, that’s as long as the duration of SR which is a gigantic red circle people can hit or get me out of. No other set can do that. And not only that, also D/D has to decide between CiS and SRej which nowadays comes with initative regen, so a D/P thief traited in SA can stealth endlessly. Reveal skills were brought in because of stealth which wasn’t that much of a problem back in the day because we only had 2 full traitlines, so most thieves didn’t use trickery. Reveal skills do make sense against engis and probably mesmers – they’d also make sense if they had the usual reveal duration of 3/4 s – but thief is built around stealth – so these skills destroy a good part of what is thief. Still all people see is thieves who have got an easy and extended acess to stealth, which is D/P, and call for nerfs for stealth, while it’s only D/P that is the problem.
It still goes back to that the nerf on D/D was mainly cused by the change from crit damage – precision and from traits – specialization so how will nerfing DP solve your problem? When the changes where made mainly to the game not thief, how do you expect them to buff the other weponset? And why cant they just buff the other set with more utility whitout nerfing DP?
Ask the people who complain, not me – I say the stealth duration D/P has got at hand is too much and should be adressed. There’s other issues with D/P but lets stay on topic stealth.
I dont get how its to much? Most of a Theif damage dont come out of stealth anyways..
And we use almost all of our initiative to stack stealth and its used for survivability and unpredictable play. And if its true that what u saying that u play D/D since the first year of gw2 you should rember that D/D was the original perma stealth build and that damage it had with full valkyre set was crazy it. DP in the current state of the game cant even come close to that set in those days, its just the set has the most to offer Theif at the moment so nerfing it is crazy.
We did – this discussion is going on for nearly a year.
This thread is about nerfing the stealth duration D/P has got – it still would be the strongest set but we could revert some of the nerfs, overwork reveal skills and also stealth skills of other professions and so on and would probably have less rangers demanding GHOST THIEF TO BE NERFED (haven’t seen any in now nearly a year but it seems to be a huge problem) – the stealth duration D/P has got is a problem though “How often did he leap – 1 time, 3 times, 4 times? When do I dodge the BS?”
And yes, the P/P part is right but anet is more focused on PvE anyway, so it’s MOAR damage all around while we actually need less but that is a very complicated and complex topic.
If u havent seen anyone in nearly a year why does it has to be a huge problem? Maybe its just that the peapole complaining about it is the one that is heard most, is always like that the ones that complain is heard the most.
Yes a ghost trapper Theif has beter 1v1 potential then other thiefs includeing normal power DP but that dosent make that build beter. Many classes has builds thats succeed in a 1v1 that dont make them the best to play anyways. And nerfing DP will only get us one more set with the lack of utility that it needs and then we only have SB.
The thing that puts me of the most is that noone has talked about how to bring more utility to any of he other weponsets. To think that nerfing DP will make the other weponsets viabale i just crazy to me. I have seen classes not that has not been viable for a long time without anet doing anything for them i mean look at what they did for P/P they increase the damage when whats realy is needed is more utility. Thats why i play DP not because its easier because what it offer with utilitywith shadow shot port, blind , interrupt and stealth stack.
To all those who say you can’t perma stealth without shadow arts, or shadow refuge, or blinding powder:
Yes. You can. Extremely easily. All you need is trickery, daredevil, d/p, bounding dodger, channeled vigor, and Signet of Agility. And the signet isn’t really necessary, just makes it so you’re not running low on the stealth timer every now and then. These are staples of most D/p builds anyway.
And if you’re around critters, then it’s even easier with bountiful theft vigor and endurance thief minor trait. Unless you run deadly arts with mug. Though personally I do acro/trick/dd
Ofc we know that we all play Theif:P but give up the mobilty of dash.. No.
Stealth stacking is definitely needed in pvp not to camp but to rotate without the enemy team seaing u in pvp i cant camp in stealth because i take DA not SA and taking SA to be able to stay in perma stealth would mean to give up 30% extra damage.
Which kind of goes back on the point of that if it’s needed there are fundamental issues with the weapon set/profession.
D/D is the training wheels of thief.
Thats the truth
On condi, sure. But people including myself have been saying that even since before the DB cast time changes got implemented. Good luck having half a chance of making it work on power, though. It’s definitely not easier or more effective at lower skill levels, that’s for sure. Maybe that could be argued before HoT, but absolutely not now.
Its not an isue on the DP weponset if anything you guys should ask for more utility on the other weponsets. And stealth is used in high level of pvp not because of damage but for the utility to cap/decap or tho sneak ress and wait out some cooldowns sure i try to land a backstab if i can but stuns and interups are more important. But how can u say that stealth has no efect on pvp play when it comes to cap/decap and for survivability it definitely has an efect.
(edited by Joel.8705)
So what we are talking about is a reduction in stealth capacity of D/P from that 12 seconds Jana mentioned to 9. Anyone using 9 seconds or less of stealth wouldn’t be affected. It brings D/P closer to the other sets and allows us to demand less broad nerfs to stealth in general (i.e. introducing new reveal abilities on other classes).
Why protest a change that only reduces the stealth potential of D/P slightly, which already has strong stealth potential—and which will remain strong after—as though it will make D/P unviable? It won’t, but I worry that without a change we will continue to face more and more unreasonably long reveal abilities being handed out like candy to other classes.
D/P has a lot more going for it than just pistol 5. Pistol 4 and Shadowshot alone make the set a potent and deadly weapon.
beucause if u dont run shadow arts u cant stay in perma stealth anyways. Stealth is just used to play unpredictable and for example blackbowder cost 6 Initiative heartseaker cost 3 the Initiative cost would be to high that why most thief dont stack stealth 4 times anyways. The thing it comes down to is that u have a problem with some guys thats playing a build that is not viabale in any gamemod and therefore wants a nerf thats will effect the only one that is.
Yep because I don’t main D/P… and I see the reason why Anet is too hesitant to actually give Thieves any real buffs. If stealth stacking isn’t needed in Pvp then this wouldn’t affect D/P in sPvP high tier play would it? Not in the slightest since from what you and bluri keep saying that Good thieves don’t stack stealth… you can still be unpredictable with this lil ICD. It just stops stealth camping/stacking stealth and nothing more.
Stealth stacking is definitely needed in pvp not to camp but to rotate without the enemy team seaing u in pvp i cant camp in stealth because i take DA not SA and taking SA to be able to stay in perma stealth would mean to give up 30% extra damage.
So what we are talking about is a reduction in stealth capacity of D/P from that 12 seconds Jana mentioned to 9. Anyone using 9 seconds or less of stealth wouldn’t be affected. It brings D/P closer to the other sets and allows us to demand less broad nerfs to stealth in general (i.e. introducing new reveal abilities on other classes).
Why protest a change that only reduces the stealth potential of D/P slightly, which already has strong stealth potential—and which will remain strong after—as though it will make D/P unviable? It won’t, but I worry that without a change we will continue to face more and more unreasonably long reveal abilities being handed out like candy to other classes.
D/P has a lot more going for it than just pistol 5. Pistol 4 and Shadowshot alone make the set a potent and deadly weapon.
beucause if u dont run shadow arts u cant stay in perma stealth anyways. Stealth is just used to play unpredictable and for example blackbowder cost 6 Initiative heartseaker cost 3 the Initiative cost would be to high that why most thief dont stack stealth 4 times anyways. The thing it comes down to is that u have a problem with some guys thats playing a build that is not viabale in any gamemod and therefore wants a nerf thats will effect the only one that is.
DP is not the meta thief does not even include in the meta in anything other then pve, DP is just the only set that can give Theif a viabale role in pvp these days. So it doesnt mater if they nerf it the other sets will not take its place the other classes will.
Yeah, then anet will have a problem: “You can play 9 professions in this game but one is absolutely unviable – not wanted in raids, not wanted in pvp, not wanted in wvw”. They nerfed thief that mindlessly that they basically destroyed it – it’s only saved by D/P but anet don’t seem to know why. And we’re here to explain it.
Well its not unviable in pvp if the team plays around it it is the best plus one class u can have due to mobilty. The only problem is that most teams dont understand how to play with a Theif and they overcomit to a point instead of spliting.
My point is that i dont want all classes to be the same and have the same mechanics and be able fight in one vs ones with all other classes if anet make plus one a needed role Theif will be in a beter spot.Reread…
“if we destroy D/P..”
“..then”
“but it’s not unviable”
– yeah not yet.
Yes i agree if we destroy DP Theif is not viabale.. But that will note make the other wepon sets magicly become the meta only make other classes do theifs role better.
DP is not the meta thief does not even include in the meta in anything other then pve, DP is just the only set that can give Theif a viabale role in pvp these days. So it doesnt mater if they nerf it the other sets will not take its place the other classes will.
Yeah, then anet will have a problem: “You can play 9 professions in this game but one is absolutely unviable – not wanted in raids, not wanted in pvp, not wanted in wvw”. They nerfed thief that mindlessly that they basically destroyed it – it’s only saved by D/P but anet don’t seem to know why. And we’re here to explain it.
Well its not unviable in pvp if the team plays around it it is the best plus one class u can have due to mobilty. The only problem is that most teams dont understand how to play with a Theif and they overcomit to a point instead of spliting.
My point is that i dont want all classes to be the same and have the same mechanics and be able fight in one vs ones with all other classes if anet make plus one a needed role Theif will be in a beter spot.
(edited by Joel.8705)
Nerfing DP is not the soulotion if it was why cant u just put on you dagers and play exactly as the good old day:P its the other classes bufs thats forced Theif to use DP.
It is and I just explained why. If you disagree then explain what the solution would be.
We get all nerfs because of D/P which can handle them a lot better than any other set anyway – so every other set is punished twice. And people still don’t get that the extended stealth is only possible with D/P and call for more and more nerfs which the devs copy and paste from the forums.
So how will that help the other sets that DP gets nerfed thats will only make Theif worse buff the other sets instead of nerfing our only viabale set?
If you want to see how fast D/P would drop from being Meta? Ask Anet to put Flanking Strike and Larcenous Strike to how they were April 30 2013, and to get rid of the uncalled for Infiltrator Return cast time. and those would be two very small tweaks,
DP is not the meta thief does not even include in the meta in anything other then pve, DP is just the only set that can give Theif a viabale role in pvp these days. So it doesnt mater if they nerf it the other sets will not take its place the other classes will.
Just tried it in PvE where I don’t run SA – one smoke field, 4 leaps – 12 s of stealth, at 10 initative after the stealth had run out. I guess I’d be full with SA and SRej – so I can stealth at will and be stealthed for as long as if I had used SR – and do it again right afterwards and get all benefits SA brings for the duration of stealth. No other thief set can do that but we’re punished all the same with stealth attack ICD, with being squishy and with forced reveal people call for because all they see is D/P (which is the last set that is played anyway). If your only way to survive PvP is extended stealth and you actually want to keep it that way, then I don’t know. I have more fun fighting actually.
PvP might be a different mode but the rules still apply more or less the same and 2 years ago I had fun keeping 4 guys on point as a stinky D/D thief (who already was nerfed in PvP).
I don’t get the mindset that you guys want to keep it that way – it’s not neccessarily about my fun, it’s about fairness and D/P is unfair.
Nerfing DP is not the soulotion if it was why cant u just put on you dagers and play exactly as the good old day:P its the other classes bufs thats forced Theif to use DP.
What other build will suffer if you don’t mind me asking?
DP that dont runs SA can not have perma stealth and we don stack 4 Times’ most of the time so reducing stealth will efect the meta for Theif in a big way due to initiative cost of heartseaker. And it dont even realy solve ur problem any how because part of why a trapper can stay in stealth is due to trapper runes not only stealth stacking.
As I’ve said repeatedly, even if the Ghost thief build isn’t objectively overpowered, it’s only possible due to poor design, and should be negated for that reason alone.
So you want other builds to suffer because one underpowerd build can have perma stealth and is not even viabale in any game mode exept roaming. U realise that u are asking anet not only to balance some traits but to change core Theif mechanics. When u see a trapper Theif in wvw just run pass him run to an open field and fight him there ur ods will be much better.
Thief doesn’t only need nerfs in certain small ways. It also needs buffs in several other ways. The problem is that, because of the way weapon sets work, a buff helps the entire class—including the possibly already “just fine” builds.
Balance isn’t just about buffs and nerfs to your own class. Buffs and nerfs have to happen in concert with buffs and nerfs to other classes. Longer duration stealth abilities lead to longer duration “revealed” abilities. Revealed, like stealth, should be extremely short duration when applied by people. A slight adjustment to prevent permanent stealth is all that is being asked for. Those that don’t use perma stealth won’t be effected if a good solution is used.
And then, hopefully, we can start having a conversation about buffing thief without simply increasing auto-attack.
But perma stealth is not even part of the meta for Theif they guys that runs those builds does not contribute tho the team and by going out of the meta trying to play a diffrent role they doing it worse then other classes can do.. A condi trapper thief can not put out more condition then a necro,mesmer or warrior can. But no class beats Theif when it comes to mobility and unprediceble play when it comes to shortbow, dash and DP. But if u play staff a revenant can beat u to a point not to mention u can not decap from behind the enemy team because the will see u. My point is with the meta:
running deadly arts, trickery, and daredevil with short bow and dash there is no way to perma stealth and stealth is used to play unprediceble not to hide and take u on one on one other classes can do that better then a Theif could anyways even i they nerf stealth stack.
A Theif is not supposed tho fight fair plus one is the role for Theif what anet could do is to realy make plus one as a role needed even more then it is today.The whole game does not revolve around sPvP, what you are mentioning is just for sPvP. Also any class can +1 it’s not like Thieves have the monopoly on mobility anymore between skills like GoTL, and other classes mobility.
And again if u want to talk about other game mods in what game mod is a trapper condi or permastealth thief the meta? i dont see the problem with stealth because those builds suffers in so many other ways compeard to other classes regardless of gamemods.
Thief doesn’t only need nerfs in certain small ways. It also needs buffs in several other ways. The problem is that, because of the way weapon sets work, a buff helps the entire class—including the possibly already “just fine” builds.
Balance isn’t just about buffs and nerfs to your own class. Buffs and nerfs have to happen in concert with buffs and nerfs to other classes. Longer duration stealth abilities lead to longer duration “revealed” abilities. Revealed, like stealth, should be extremely short duration when applied by people. A slight adjustment to prevent permanent stealth is all that is being asked for. Those that don’t use perma stealth won’t be effected if a good solution is used.
And then, hopefully, we can start having a conversation about buffing thief without simply increasing auto-attack.
But perma stealth is not even part of the meta for Theif they guys that runs those builds does not contribute tho the team and by going out of the meta trying to play a diffrent role they doing it worse then other classes can do.. A condi trapper thief can not put out more condition then a necro,mesmer or warrior can. But no class beats Theif when it comes to mobility and unprediceble play when it comes to shortbow, dash and DP. But if u play staff a revenant can beat u to a point not to mention u can not decap from behind the enemy team because the will see u. My point is with the meta:
running deadly arts, trickery, and daredevil with short bow and dash there is no way to perma stealth and stealth is used to play unprediceble not to hide and take u on one on one other classes can do that better then a Theif could anyways even i they nerf stealth stack.
A Theif is not supposed tho fight fair plus one is the role for Theif what anet could do is to realy make plus one as a role needed even more then it is today.The whole game does not revolve around sPvP, what you are mentioning is just for sPvP. Also any class can +1 it’s not like Thieves have the monopoly on mobility anymore between skills like GoTL, and other classes mobility.
Well i guesd that u talked about pvp or wvw because whats the point about talking about stealth stack in pve.. Where i cant see it be a problem any how.
And then do tell me a class that can beat a Theif in mobilty? thats runs dash, shortbow, and shadow step. A warrior running Greatsword and sword has no chance, druid running Greatsword and staff has no chanse a revenant with shiro and staff has no chance and they are the the classes with best mobilty behind thief when it comes to covering a dictanse. And mobilty is not only to get as far and fast away as possible a DP thief can stealth for a short period of time and disengage in another direction thats why theif has the best mobilty and if a team plays around having a Theif in their team i have no doubt that the thief is the best plus one in the game meaning if they push the sides of the map Theif is the best plus one. And do u realy want evry class to have the same mechanics and be able to play the same roles?
Thief doesn’t only need nerfs in certain small ways. It also needs buffs in several other ways. The problem is that, because of the way weapon sets work, a buff helps the entire class—including the possibly already “just fine” builds.
Balance isn’t just about buffs and nerfs to your own class. Buffs and nerfs have to happen in concert with buffs and nerfs to other classes. Longer duration stealth abilities lead to longer duration “revealed” abilities. Revealed, like stealth, should be extremely short duration when applied by people. A slight adjustment to prevent permanent stealth is all that is being asked for. Those that don’t use perma stealth won’t be effected if a good solution is used.
And then, hopefully, we can start having a conversation about buffing thief without simply increasing auto-attack.
But perma stealth is not even part of the meta for Theif they guys that runs those builds does not contribute tho the team and by going out of the meta trying to play a diffrent role they doing it worse then other classes can do.. A condi trapper thief can not put out more condition then a necro,mesmer or warrior can. But no class beats Theif when it comes to mobility and unprediceble play when it comes to shortbow, dash and DP. But if u play staff a revenant can beat u to a point not to mention u can not decap from behind the enemy team because the will see u. My point is with the meta:
running deadly arts, trickery, and daredevil with short bow and dash there is no way to perma stealth and stealth is used to play unprediceble not to hide and take u on one on one other classes can do that better then a Theif could anyways even i they nerf stealth stack.
A Theif is not supposed tho fight fair plus one is the role for Theif what anet could do is to realy make plus one as a role needed even more then it is today.
With all the changes that have come to the Thief class, and some very valid complaints, I think it is warranted to take a look at Stealth, currently one of the biggest things that is hindering the balancing of Thief is it’s ability to endlessly stack Stealth even after you implemented the 5 stack limit of stealth a couple years ago.
Right now one very good way to bring the Thief inline with its Stealth Application without completely making the mechanic useless is the implementation Game wide for a 1 Second ICD per application of Stealth, this will stop D/P builds from endlessly stacking Stealth (Ghost Thief/TrapperThief build) and loosen the monopoly that D/P has on all competitive game modes.
I was not the one to first suggest the 1 second ICD that honor belongs to babazhook.
What this small change will do is allow for you to be able to easily balance Thief since they won’t be able to Camp Stealth permanently. And stop a lot of the stealth abuse that happens in game.
To be honest i dont think any good DP theif would go with SA over DA you loose out on most of ur damage, and how does a trapper Theif do any role beter then any other class for example condi Mesmer?. Yes Theif is not verstile with its wepon sets right now and the Solution to that is not tho nerf the one weponset thats makes Theif viabale in gamemods. That would only make Theif kitten in all game mods and as long as i has played the game Theif has always had one set that worked better in that meta first with DD that also had crazy stealth at that time when other classes did not have the mechanics they have today, and then SD, and now DP. The thing that makes DP the most viabale is not only the stealth stack its the intrupt on headshot, shadowshots and blinds, sure stack stealth alows u to play unprediceble and maybe wait out some of ur cooldowns sometimes but not to stay in permasteath..
My tips besides those u metioned is ofc precast backstab and stow wepons on shadow shot to stay in stealth and land backstab fast. And jump on infiltrator’s arrow makes it easier to not get stuck or get over ledges.
I have the same issue and alot of peapole on my server.. I can buy and sell from inventory but i cant search the TP.
Here what i want them to do i posted it in another thread: remake pistol skill nr 2 bodyshot to work like shortbow nr 5 infiltrator’s arrow but with shorter range. Then let theifs weponswap every 5 sec this Will make a build like D/D P/P very fun. we can use black powder with heartseaker and therefore have survivability. D/D will be in a much better place and we will have a alternative to shortbow. The way i see it this will make every Theif build better.
I thought about this also not instant but something like warriors trait fast hands, when i saw a post yesterday on remake pistol 2 skill bodyshot to infiltrator shot maybe 600 range. If we had faster weponswap then D/D and for example P/P would be a very nice build u could use pistol skill 5 switch to D/D and do heartseaker that would make D/D much beter and we dont have to take shortbow with every build.
(edited by Joel.8705)
I agree with u on that maybe some should not encurage other players to switch class based on the state of the class, if u enjoy it play it. But on the other hand maybe they are to fed up with nerfs and the time invested in game i can understand that and i feal that to. If only the devs could egnolige that there is a problem and tell us that they are going to do something about it. Until then i dont feal that the frustration is misplaced and maybe they need to see the reaktion.
(edited by Joel.8705)
2 years playing crafting incinerator buying fused shortbow skin for what? being nerfed in to a +1/pet. Im not going to stop playing thief but im not going to pretend that its all good and alright.
If the majority is saying something maybe its something about the subject that u dont get. I mean i dont think that Theif players in general are more dramatic then other players.
I play i Theif Becouse no mather the state of thief its the class i enjoy the most. I just Love core of the thief class. Seriously the one buff i feal the thief needs the most right now is better survivability and that shouldn’t be so hard to balance.