Guild Wars 2

“There are no constraints in place to prevent you from min/maxing your way to the most efficient build possible.”
You keep saying the exact same thing, using different words every time, as if the goal here is NOT to achieve the best build for your character and the playstyle you desire.
Please explain me why not. Because you might find it boring?

“It is the very fact that you can’t have it all that makes the current trait system a well designed one.”
Again, i disagree. Keeping me away form all the “good stuff” is by no means, not now, not ever, well design…Reminds of the pay-to-play mentality of other games…

No point continue arguing about it…i find flaws in this trait system for my reasons, you dont for your own reasons. Lets end this debate here.

Thank you for sharing your opinion though, was … interesting

metaphorm.6904:

i definitely disagree with you that you ought to be able to easily specialize in “apples” and not have to “chase the apples through the B and C line”. you should have to chase them. absolutely 100% it is good design to make you chase them. bad design would be “here is apples on a silver platter”.

the point of the trait lines is not to facilitate creation of the most efficient, specialized builds of your class. the point of the trait lines is to present a game system that players get to interact with. you see the difference? this is not industrial design, this is game design. the objective is not efficiency and specialization. the objective is something with depth and diversity that forces strategic tradeoffs and decisions.

We can agree that we definitely disagree.
I disagree with everything you said.
If i want apples and bananas, i should be able to pick only apples and bananas, and not cucumbers if i dont want them. If you want apples and cucumbers, you should be able to pick up only those and not some bananas too, “because you have to”!

“the objective is not efficiency and specialization” EXCUSE ME????
Then why i should put any point to any line from the beginning?

“something with depth and diversity that forces strategic tradeoffs and decisions”? Who decides that? Who knows better than me what is strategic or not in my play-style? Why somebody else must decide how depth and diversity my play-style must have?
And where is the depth and the diversity if the system it self FORCES YOU to do those tradeoffs and decisions?
Depth and diversity FOR ME, means that it gives ME the choice to do it, MY way…

metaphorm.6904:

Venomous Aura is not a damage dealing trait. There is only one Venom that actually deals damage actually (spider venom), and it isn’t even a very efficient damage source. The venoms are debuffs. They are controlling and debilitating conditions inflicted on the opponent. The Shadow Arts trait line focuses on both Stealth and the control and support roles for group play. Considering that Venomous Aura is the strongest control and support trait in the entire class, doesn’t it make sense that its in the control and support trait line?

Again, i’m not sure why you think this is a damage dealing trait. You simply have the wrong impression.

You might have a point there. I had mostly Spider Venom in my mind, thats what i have used sometimes…(i feel the Venoms are substandard, i rarely used them anyway)

metaphorm.6904:

Again, you seem to just not really understand what the Trait lines are actually focused on. You seem very confused based on some superficial causes. Please read through the other traits in the Trickery line again and notice there is a heavy emphasis on Initiative Recovery throughout this trait line. Hastened Replenishment is the most powerful Initiative Recovery trait, so it is sensible that it should be at the end of the most Initiative Recovery focused trait line.

So i should emphasize in the +initiative part and forget it is apllied through our heal skill? Understandable…

metaphorm.6904:

Why would it fit better in the Critical Strike line? Critical Strikes already has Side Strike.

I think I know what you’re complaining about. You want to take both Side Strike and Flanking Strikes, because you are trying to min/max around the idea of attacking from behind. You’re using all Power/Precision/Crit Damage equipment and don’t have any condition damage. So you have managed to convince yourself that it is bad to take points in Trickery because that trait line gives condition damage.

I would suggest that instead of complaining, you should actually just figure out how to use the trait lines.

Actually i am not complaining. And the fact that you can easily get Flanking strike from another line because its a low point trait doesn’t mean it is positioned properly there. You convinced me that Hastened Replenishment is correctly where it is because it actually gives initiative above else. How are you gonna convince me that Flanking strike is properly there? What it contributes to a trait line that gives condition damage(your words)?
And why should i spend point in Trickery from the first place if i dont want +condition damage at all? You say its not bad. And I say its not good either. Because you dont care spending points in Trickery, that doesn’t mean a direct damage trait belong to a +condition damage trait line…

metaphorm.6904:

The trait is called FIRST STRIKE. it is clearly intended to be a bonus for the FIRST STRIKES OF A FIGHT. why is that not obvious? its right in the name! this trait increases damage on your opening hits, before you have spend your initiative down below 6.

Sure, sure. I gave an example in a post above. Lets say I have NOT take Preparedness or Infusion of Shadows traits. I use CnD (with the intention to Backstab, 6 initiative spend, 6 initiative left) and then i backstab immediately. Will First strike work ONLY for CnD or not?
What about PvE? I might hit hard on my opening ability and then what? I dont use any ability until my iniative goes above 6 and only then i use another?

If thats the intention, then thats fine. Dont expect me though not to think this trait needs rework.

And for you last paragraphs:
Of course i have imagined and use a specific, favorite play-style.
When i want apples I take them from Apple line.
When i want Bananas i take them from Bananas line.
and when i want Cucumbers, i take them from Cucumber line.
Making me chase the apples through the B and C line isn’t “creative” nor “elegant”.

After all, IF i want to be “multi-dimensional”, i should do it cause i want it, not because you force me, right?

Thanks for your help understanding the way trait lines are intended to work though…

And if i take Infusion of shadow too, i will have 11 initiative left after CnD…
So i need 1 or 2 more traits to make the First strike work…?
And all that for just once in a fight?

I can accept your explanation about being supportive and be able to deal some damage too. Seems logical, that’s what i am trying to understand, if traits are intentionally placed as they are and for what reason…

bwillb.2165:

I believe it is intentional so that you’re not completely sacrificing damage traits if you go with a support or defensive trait line. Or maybe they just ran out of space on Deadly Arts and Crit Strikes.

As the name suggests, First Strike is all about buffing your opening attack. You can use it with a dual dagger build quite well by opening with cloak and dagger and then backstab while your initiative is still over 6. Combine with the 25 point Deadly Arts trait and you’ve got a 20% damage bonus on backstab, since cloak and dagger causes vulnerability.

I am afraid you confused more.
Buffing my first attack (only) is understandable well enough.
If i use CnD, i will consume 6 initiative. If i backstab immediately, First strike doesn’t apply since it says “10% increased damage when initiative is OVER 6” and my initiative is exactly 6? Or do i need the Preparedness or Infusion of Shadow traits so i will be sure it will work? Meh…
If i understood it wrong and you re right about it, a 25 point trait for use, maybe once in a fight, looks like a waste to me…What about large fights or Boss fights?

Kouta.5239:

The Venom Strike is in the right place in my eyes. That is because that line is somekind of supportish if you read everything. That line adds boons and such to YOUR ALLIES once you used a given skill. Its pretty much in the right place.

Venom Strike? Where is that? I said Venomous Aura, don’t know if you mean the same trait. Anyway if you do, my point again is : why a damage dealing trait in a “somekind of supportish if you read everything. That line adds boons and such to YOUR ALLIES once you used a given skill” line?

Kouta.5239:

First strike is not rewarding you as you dont using your skills, but gives you a bit boost over 6 ini points what is great, better than nothing.

“Better than nothing” is not good enough for a 25point trait in my eyes

Hello everyone

I am sorry if this has been discussed before, also i never participated in Betas.

I just turned 80, so now i have all traits in my disposal to play with.
Yet, what i don’t really understand and makes me wonder is the fact that there are traits in specific lines, where they should not be. I don’t know if this is intentionally or just bad design/poor positioning…

Let me explain:
Venomous Aura, 30 point trait in Shadow Arts line.Really?
A line which boosts Toughness/Vitality and supports Stealth, needs a trait for venom sharing? A damage dealing trait? Couldn’t that trait be in Deadly Arts, where someone actually might use it?
Same goes for Hastened Replenishment, 30 point trait in Trickery line.
Why would i specc for that on a line that supports Condition Dmg/Steal Recharge?
Flanking Strikes In Trickery? Shouldnt that fit better in Critical strike Line?
There are maybe other traits that suit better in other lines but I haven’t try all lines, so cant judge on the usefulness of all traits…

(one last thing : First strike, 25 trait in Critical Strike line…Are you serious? You reward me for NOT using my initiative, NOT using my skills, while i am a Thief, a burst damage profession?Please replace that…)

Discuss please

Sorry for my bad English, not my native language

JLBernardes.3048:

Playing my pistol/dagger conditions thief sometimes feels a bit too safe (not too easy, since to stay safe I do a bunch of stuff, but it’s not hard either and I do stay safe).

The auto-attack pistol damage is on the low side, but all other skills with this weapon combo do ok damage (which I supplement with power, and lots of conditions and condition damage).

Throwing the ricocheting off-hand dagger makes sure that up to 4 enemies will stay away from me all the time while I move around shooting at them, since they are kept permanently crippled (and take decent damage and a ton of conditions from the dagger and my poisons and all). If one closes in anyway, I can Shadowstrike with the dagger to do some nice damage and shadowstep back while saving my endurance.

If some ranged foe is giving me trouble I can apply vulnerability with a Body Shot, close in nearly instantaneously to Steal from them (poisoning them and getting boons while I’m at it), use whatever I stole, cloak-and-dagger for some nice damage (and stealth and shed aggro) and follow it up with my stealth attack unloading my pistol at them for very nice damage. If it’s still alive after that and if I don’t want to stay in melee, I can do the Shadowstrike moving back thing again.

And after doing all those things and instant shadowstepping back and forth, I will still have all my endurance left for dodges when needed, my heal to get back some hp AND to Stealth me (allowing more delicious pistol unloading), or Thieve’s Guild to call in a couple buddies (pistol/pistol and dagger/dagger) to help me out for 40 seconds…

I even have a trait that lets me leave caltrops behind every time I dodge, but I haven’t bothered to use that one yet since there are other good options and the dagger throwing is already great at keeping things away (though the caltrops-dodge should be great for when I use the shortbow – which I only do in group events if I want to obliterate swarms of enemies quickly).

With all that, I’ve been defeated or even downed very little going from level 1 to 45… Mostly when I carelessly let initiative (and all my ways to get it back) run out and can’t do the dagger throwing for a while (foes would close in and pound me) or when I fought more than 4 hard-hitting enemies at my level or, usually, above (one would eventually catch up to me when I was out of dodges/shadowsteps and put me down with a couple thwacks). And I’m pretty sure there are plenty of better thief players and builds out there…

Exactly right!
P/D is the ultimate option for soloing in PVE.
I kite Bronze elite mobs 3 or 4 levels above me safely, Dancing dagger ability allows you to keep distance from 4 targets(max) and kill them slowly one by one.
I leveled my toon in areas always 3-4 levels above my level, cause of that combo…
Caltrops trait also help alot in soloing things.