(edited by Marijan.4175)
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I didn’t say that this gear outshines all other gear in any kind of situation. I’m fully aware that Berserker’s gear for example makes you deal more damage – but that’s not the point. The point is that the gear is currently imbalanced, because it’s overall in total better than other kinds of gear, most noticeable the ones specialized on Magic Find, regardless of it’s use.
If they think that previously existing Magic Find armors are too bad, then buff them in some kind of way, instead of adding another armor which turns them into garbage and is like a slap in the face for everyone who invested in those sets.
Soldier’s gear, which you are using as example, doesn’t get even close to two times as many defensive attribute points as Celestial gear has. Celestial gear has roughly 5/8*3 defensive attribute points = 1,875, while Soldier’s has 2*1 = 2. That’s a small difference, which is decreased by the synergies between those attributes and the diminishing returns of some of them. Furthermore you get maximum Magic Find and I highly doubt that Power as primary attribute alone, makes you deal more damage than 5/8*3 offensive attributes (Power, Precision, Condition Damage) in addition to the highest Critical Damage possible.
There is no reason for that Critical Damage and Magic Find attributes to be higher than on previously existing “Celestial” gear, which has 5/8 of the usual secondary attributes on all stats and seems to be balanced, since I never heard anyone complain about it being to good or bad. It has a few more points in total, because it isn’t specialized, but that’s about it – no need for single stats which are randomly higher than on specialized gear. So I would like to see them adjusting those stats, which seem to be over the top, to the previously existing and perfectly fine “Celestial” gear, which would automatically give the previously existing Magic Find gear a reason to keep existing.
Hello,
I would like to suggest an adjustment of the new Celestial gear, which has more Critical Damage and Magic Find than the previously existing one.
The previously existing gear, which has equal stats to the new “Celestial” one, has all attributes, but only 5/8 of a usual secondary attribute. The new Celestial gear is the same, with the exception of Magic Find and Critical Damage. Magic find is at maximum, while Critical Damage is even more than usual, with partially 1% more than on Berserker’s gear.
That’s imbalanced, since this armor has the same amount of Magic Find as gear with a prefix, which is specialized on Magic Find and sacrifices another primary attribute for it. The new gear simply outshines the previously existing MF Gear. I would suggest to reduce it by 1%, to give the previously existing ones an actual reason to exist. I guess that this imbalance is the result of rounding up the odd numbers. 2% Magic Find instead of 3% would be still more than 5/8 of 3% (=1,875), which would be already too much actually, since MF is a primary instead of a secondary attribute, but that can’t be helped, since it has to be rounded and 1% would be kind of useless.
Critical Damage should be reduced to 5/8 of the usual amount of a secondary attribute on different gear, as it is the case on previously existing “Celestial” gear. It makes no sense that “balanced” all-round-gear randomly has more Critical Damage than gear with another prefix, which is specialized on damage. Furthermore it allows you to sacrifice much less damage than you usually would have to for that amount of survivability – and in addition to that you get Magic Find.
Currently the gear has a proper primary attribute (Magic Find), a slightly improved secondary attribute (Critical Damage) and 6*5/8 of usual secondary attributes as third one (which is alone more than other gear has in total … 252 on a chest piece, while previously existing ones have 245 attribute points).
I see that this “balanced” and versatile gear should get a few attribute points more in total than gear with different prefixes, because it’s less specialized (although the attributes synergize very well with each other), but that’s still the case if it’s stats get adjusted to fit the ones of the previously existing Celestial gear, which is perfectly balanced, since 8 * 5/8 of a usual secondary attribute is still more in total than on other gear.
We have had celestial gear for a long time now… Every trinket slot already had it. I dont even know why people are surprised we got it on armor for one… and for two, just like the trinkets most builds are not going to find them terribly useful.
The previously existing Celestial gear has proper Critical Damage and Magic Find, at least the ascended gear. The newly added one has the most Critical Damage and maximum Magic Find.
You complain about the stats but really care about the magic find, which you don’t actually care about because the gear’s better than pre-existing gear until you add the numbers and see that it’s give and take, but magic find.
Your argument has gone off in so many directions it sounds like the complaints are simply habitual now. No matter what set you compare it to you’ll be giving up points in areas to get points spread in other areas, plus you’ll have magic find which you don’t care about. The data, the actual numbers, are looking at your arguments with a very puzzled expression.
Why are you defensive about this Celestial gear? It has an usual primary attribute, it’s secondary attribute is already slightly better than usual, but then you get more attribute points as third, than other gear has combined. I don’t see how this could not be considered as imbalanced, regardless of whether you are using Magic Find currently or not.
If they want to change something about the way Magic Find works, sure, go ahead, but simply adding imbalanced gear to make people stop using the old one, which is now simply inferior and became a waste of money, still doesn’t seem to be a good way to realize that.
So… you’re hung up on the magic find alone then? 18% total MF across all six pieces which will take months to craft… that’s the issue?
Magic Find?
Well… ok then.
I don’t give a crap about magic find. I don’t give a crap about condition damage for example either. What grinds my gears is that they randomly add new gear, which is imbalanced and simply better than other, previously existing gear, which is basically like slapping everyone who invested in gear, which is now simply outshined by the new one, directly in the face. I don’t even own a set of magic find, but even as someone who is using a normal set of armor – now there is something equal, which has magic find in addition to that.
You’re still hung up on pre-calculation numbers without looking to see what they actually do or mean. For example, that extra 45 precision. The amount of precision required to increase the chance to critical hit by 1% is calculated by this formula: (0.0024 × Level^2) + (0.06 × Level) + 1. So at level 80, it takes 21 points to increase the chance to crit by 1%. You basically get a critical chance increase of 2%, and sacrifice the damage you’d do with those hits. It balances out. It’s really not a big deal.
I think you still didn’t get, that I’m not saying that this armor performs better than another armor in terms of dealing damage. The Critical Damage attribute is so high on Celestial gear, that you have to sacrifice (yes, sacrifice, it deals less damage than an offensive armor, as I said multiple times) much less than you usually would’ve for this amount of balanced and versatile survivability. In addition to that, it has maximum magic find. It’s basically kind of balanced gear (other armors compensate for the a bit lower attributes through specialization and synergies), but it also has the maximum amount of Magic Find, which you usually have to sacrifice a lot for to get, which simply outshines the previously existing Magic Find gear.
There is no way to deny that those 3 Prefixes are considerably worse than Celestial gear and imo being simply better than 3 other kinds of gear is reason enough to call something imbalanced.
- I just noticed, that Magic Find is usually even a primary attribute. So you can consider this armor as a usual set, which has 1 primary attribute (maximum Magic Find), 1 a bit better secondary attribute (a bit more Critical Damage than a usual secondary attribute has) and +45 * 6 as third attribute, which are alone more attribute points than other gear, without Magic Find or Critical Damage has in total.
There is no way to consider this balanced, seriously.
(edited by Marijan.4175)
If people arn’t using celestial ascended jewel before, chances are they won’t go celestial armor now.
The thing with the ascended gear, which would have the Celestial prefix is, that the Critical Damage of those items (Celestial Sigil for example) isn’t higher, but lower than the Critical Damage on ascended gear which attributes are similar to Berserker’s gear. Same goes for Magic Find.
Not without context, no. 6% of what? If damage overall is lowered due to less power, etc. then you have an additional 1% of a smaller number overall, meaning the total could very well be less. Here’s the skinny. Critical hits have a base damage multiplier of 150% to the base damage of the attack, right? Adding additional crit damage means, in this case, you’re going from 155% damage on a crit to 156% damage on a crit. However if the base damage is lower, you’re still looking at a lower overall value of damage after adding in the crit bonus.
Nobody ever claimed that it has you are going to deal more damage than with Berserker’s gear by using Celestial, nor that it’s going to take over it’s role in PvE, which would be outrageous, as I already mentioned.
The thing is, that the even higher Critical damage in combination with the diminishing returns of Precision, which is kind of useless (less useful than increasing something else) to increase after a certain point, make you sacrifice much less offensive power than you would have to for that amount of survivability and Magic Find otherwise.
You don’t have to do any kind of math or calculation to see that this gear is better than the previously existing Magic Find armors and it’s just weird, that everything is 5/8 of a usual secondary attribute, but Magic Find (which is equal to the usual amount, which you would have to sacrifice a secondary attribute for otherwise) and Critical Damage, which is even higher than in Berserker’s gear.
… and take a look at Cavalier’s gear for example: Toughness, Power, Critical Damage. The Celestial has more Critical Damage. Instead of 101 Toughness on a chest piece for example, you get 45 Toughness, 45 Vitality and 45 Healing Power = 135 defensive stats, which synergize very well with each other. Instead of 75 Power you get only 45, but 45 Precision, which makes the Critical Damage much more valuable, and 45 Condition Damage (which can be kind of useless, but most builds apply conditions anyway, whether they are focused on condition damage or not). It’s up to you if you prefer the Celestial over the Cavalier’s gear, but the fact that the Celestial has also maximum Magic Find, in addition to it’s already at least equal stats, makes this armor imbalanced for me.
If you want to convince people that it’s all that big of a deal (it likely isn’t), then provide some real numbers. How much of an increase in damage do you get, for example, when comparing the different sets? (There are formulae out there to use to calculate damage and all that.) For example, people raged for a bit about ascended items. Yet it turns out, berserker to berserker equivalent (including crit) to be about a 7% damage increase in a perfect mitigation-free situation without any dodging or other forms of avoidance. Reality-wise it’s dramatically less than that.
So, stats like +6% Critical Damage aren’t real numbers anymore? You don’t need to calculate anything to see that maximum Magic Find + 1 Secondary and +1 Primary attribute is considerably worse than maximum Magic Find, + 5/8 of the Secondary Attribute * 6 + the highest Critical Damage obtainable. This already makes is simply better than 3 previously existing prefixes.
Can someone post the exact stat numbers for every piece of celestial? I want to figure out the exact differences between it and other sets. Currently my ele has full berserkers. My base crit chance is 50% and crit damage is 110%. This is pretty (fun) overkill, but I’m just wondering if more survivability would be better, considering celestial has the same crit damage as berserkers and magic find (or so I’ve heard).
I would appreciate if you could actually read my post, although it turned out to be kind of long. I provided a link to a screenshot of Celestial heavy armor already. It doesn’t only have the same Critical Damage as Berserker’s gear, but partially even more, in addition to the maximum amount of magic find, which is basically what this whole thread is about.
So basically we have another set of armor that may or may not be more or less ideal for what you might or might not be doing at the current time or in the near future.
No, we have a new prefix that simply outshines previously existing ones, at least 3 of them completely and other ones in many situations as well, as I already mentioned.
The only use I’d have for this set is the magic find stat so that farming wouldn’t be as torturous as it is with normal MF gear.
Apart from that, it’s trash. Seems I’ll just keep spamming full zerker until anything better comes out.
Well, it simply makes many other Prefixes useless, regardless of the situation, Explorer’s, Wayfarer’s and Traveler’s for example, because the new Celestial Gear is simply better, since it doesn’t sacrifice anything for the maximum amount of Magic Find.
Cavalier’s and Valkyrie’s might be worse as well, since Celestial gear has more Critical Damage and some precision. Yes, less power, but some condition damage and by far more survivability + magic find. Sure, in this case it might be depended on the situation and character, but it still doesn’t seem to be a good idea to me at all, to add a new prefix, which simply makes at least 3 previously existing prefixes completely useless and is most likely better than a few others in many situations as well, like the ones mentioned above and Soldier’s gear as another example.
Of course it’s not going to replace Berserker’s gear in higher fractals of the mists (although you might encounter guys, who are using this simply for the sake of magic find), since defensive stats are barely of any use in there and you want to deal as much damage as quickly as possible – and it would be outrageous if Celestial gear could do this too.
(edited by Marijan.4175)
This gear is bad for WvW,. I would be interested in this just to have some damage and also have some magic find, but overall not on my list of priorities.
Would you like to explain why it’s bad for WvW? I think how well a specific kind of gear performs in WvW is dependend on the situation, but I doubt that you could be more versatile than with this gear. You have 3 defensive attributes, which have 5/8 of the attribute points a secondary stat on previously existing gear, for example with the Soldier’s prefix, which is an absolutely valid choice in WvW. 3×5/8 = 18,75, instead of 2, but that’s not a big deal if you consider the synergy between those stats. In addition to that, you get maximum magic find (unnecessary, but can’t hurt to have if you don’t have to sacrifice anything) the highest critical damage and 3 offensive attributes, instead of just power as your primary, which should result in an increase of damage as well.
Critical damage don’t help without the power and precision.
I just dont’ see any glass canon wearing it. It’s mainly for balance build, or power/condition hybrid.
Well, you get some power and precision and it’s easy to get enough via skills or traits, to make that critical damage pay off. Furthermore there is already gear, which has Critical Damage but no Precision (Valkyrie and Cavalier). I agree with you, but some people are using this kind of gear anyway, I guess many of them are mixing it up with something else, which will probably result in worse stats than by just using this Celestial gear instead in many cases. The only drawback I see with this kind of gear is that it has considerably less power than gear with previously existing and popular prefixes – but it’s a balanced build after all and offers a much greater survivability and Magic Find in exchange. However, the fact that this gear has the highest critical damage makes you sacrifice much less than you usually would’ve to gain that survivability (not to mention maximum Magic Find).
If critical damage is higher on the new armour, i can see alot of people thinking of getting it.
Is this similar to the idea of ascended armour? Its a massive grind to get, since you cant buy the crystal after its been used on a skill point, so will be hard to get a full set since the AH price will be massive, not for the materials but for the lack of supply and time invested per piece.
The items are account-bound, so you have to level up your craftsmanship in order to get them by yourself. This kind of forces players to spend money on those Crafting disciplines, which are currently barely of any use, besides speeding up the leveling process of new characters.
(edited by Marijan.4175)
I hope it’s not an attempt to stop magic find, because if it is it is a very misguided and poor one. The only thing that’s gonna fix this Magic Find crap is making sure there is NO gear in the game that forces you to give up real stats for bonuses like Magic Find/Karma Gain/whatever.
What I hope it actually is, is a realization that their game design is leading most players down the glass cannon path…. with a minority stacking in the opposite direction. Very few people are trying to build balanced classes, it seems, so maybe a push is helpful?
This might be true in PvE, but adding new gear with even more Critical Damage in addition to Magic Find and balanced stats isn’t going to change anything about that, since it’s a consequence of being able to avoid damage in PvE content too easily, so that killing things quickly (which the game forces you too multiple times) is often the better choice, especially since some Vitality and Toughness is not going to change much in high level fractals, which currently seem to be the most difficult part of PvE.
In WvW however, balanced or tougher builds are common, especially in zergs, since glass cannons usually don’t last long in those fights.
Hello,
allow me to say beforehand, that I’m sorry if this kind of thread already exists. I searched for one, but didn’t find any. Furthermore I want to say that this isn’t supposed to be a “whining”-thread (only), but I simply compared the Celestial armor to other armor pieces and I got confused if they are meant to be that way.
I used the stats of the Celestial gear that is shown in this ( http://dulfy.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/gw2-celestial-heavy-armor-set.jpg ) screenshot to compare them to previously existing armor pieces.
I would like to compare the heavy chest piece, shown in the screenshot above, to the previously existing one with the Berserker’s prefix in this thread as example.
The Berserker’s Draconic Coat has 101 Power, 72 Precision and 5% Critical Damage. I think the most confusing difference is, that the Celestial Chest Piece has in fact not less, but more Critical Damage than the Berserker one (6%), in addition to the maximum amount of Magic Find (3%), which you would have to sacrifice 72 of your secondary stat for actually. In addition to those boni, the Celestial one has 252 stat points evenly spread among all attributes, while a normale Chest Piece, with the Soldier’s prefix for example, only has 245 spread across it’s 3 stats.
You can argue that you get more stat points overall, because you aren’t as specialized as someone else by using Celestial gear, but I don’t see any reason why Celestial gear should have more or even the same amount of Critical Damage than Berserker’s gear and a maximum amount of Magic Find in addition to that.
It basically makes any other kind of Magic Find gear a waste of money, because it has the same amount without having to sacrifice anything, since you can’t call an evenly distributed amount of stat points, which is even more than on other armor pieces overall, in addition to the most Critical damage you can get, a sacrifice.
Furthermore an evenly spread amount of stat points is not necessarily worse than specialized stats, because many attributes synergize very well with each other (Toughness, Vitality and Healing Power for example). One of the few exceptions might be in terms of dealing burst damage, if you want to sacrifice survivability for more damage, but since you have even more Critical damage on the Celestial gear anyway and additional condition damage, why would you want to sacrifice the great survivability that the combination of Vitality, Toughness and Healing power offers and the maximum amount of Magic Find, for the tiny bit of additional damage you would earn?
The actual question imo is, why Magic Find and Critical Damage aren’t only 5/8 of a secondary attribute like all other attributes on Celestial Gear and if that is intended and going to stay that way.
I don’t know if they intended to give crafting a real purpose besides speeding up the leveling process, or if they are trying to solve the problem with people who are slowing down groups by using Magic Find gear, by giving them a new armor, which is at least as good as the previously existing ones, in addition to having Magic Find, but I honestly doubt that this is a good idea, especially since it’s so expensive and might become even more expensive and more difficult to obtain after the event, so that many players won’t be able to get this gear, which is currently the best Magic Find gear by far and has the most Critical Damage you can get, in addition to well spread attribute points.
I would like to hear your opinions about this matter. Thank you in advance and please excuse my bad English.
(edited by Marijan.4175)