Guild Wars 2

You were already informed about the problems Ascention gear and vertical progression would bring into the game before fractals. There were also numerous suggestions on how to improve horizontal progression in a meaningful matter without the gear treadmill.

This is coming from a player who has not played the game for a year. If you wish to see me and others who like a stable design philosophy towards horizontal progression, i suggest you get on with it.

The core of this all is that at some point you lost the vision for this game and made bandaid “improvements” on the expense of the previous design philosophy.(Which was actually the primary reason why people wanted to play this game instead of something like WoW)

You already know what to do. It´s not really that hard to figure out if you actually have people working on this game and taking this seriously. In my opinion this whole “discussion” is the same type of smoke and mirrors tactic used by Blizzard.

endless.1376:

There is absolutely no way to avoid grinding in an RPG. You have to grind through levels, quests/events, skill points, crafting levels, personal story missions, and more…

It is inevitable.

I have said it before and i will say it again. This is exactly what plagues the MMO genre.

Once again. Developers and players alike need to get the idea out of their kitten that the only lasting gameplay between patches is the one that has grindy elements in it.

Never mind the fact that this game was marketed for people who did not wish to spend excessive amounts of time on mundane tasks in order to enjoy oneself.

You like grind? Fine, but, why don you go play the other 100s of games that encorporate it and let us have our own game that was originally catered to us?

To bluebird.

Im not going to pretend to know what the person you responded to defines as grind, but for me personally, doing the same action a long time for the sole reason as acquiring something is a grind.

Obviosly it has some subjectivity in it even then. But its quite objective to say that running full fractal runs 20 times for one item is not fun, atleast when a good chunk of the playerbase is concerned.(And i actually like fractals)

Avatar.1923:

EVE, is indeed the most revolutionary mmo on the market, and its like 8y old…

seems like no big studio is willing to risk making something innovative and different;

for whatever reason; i say; watch out Blizzards Titan. this probably will be the next big thing as Blizzard (like them or not) are capable of innovation.

Blizzard was capable of innovation but i seriosly doubt that they can do anything new anymore. Dioblo 3 was a failure in everything but sales and WoW just keeps refining the same thing over the years. I dont personally like it when people say that a “company” is innovative based on a decade old experience. Everything depends on wether its the same people running/developing the show and even then theres no guarante.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

RedBaron.6058:

To create the so called perfect MMO you need a vision.

A vision for at least 10 years.

You need to plan the game to start with a core of things and keep evolving in all aspects. Players need to be part of that evolution.

The problem nowadays is that the cash cow model imperates. Develop a game for a few years with a relatively small team or in less time with a bigger team, with awesome PR generating enormous amounts of hype, launch it cashing in millions of games sold and maintaining it alive for 3 months until you reach break even plus a % of revenue and then decide if it is worthy to invest in the game or let it die slowly by having a reduced team and lots of automatic managing systems running it until servers closure.

Of course that to produce a good and enduring MMO you need firm funding and brave investors that share the vision and the belief in the game.

But right now, I feel the MMO community will play for 2 or 3 months almost all the games they can throw at us and the game companies are surfing that wave. When they feel the need to produce better and lasting games they will do it but it will be us that have to trigger that..:)

Best regards,

Red

I think it’d take longer than ten years for a simple reason . . .

You can say 10 years to work out the material but the world still passes and evolves outside the box of the design group. You spend 10 years making a game and staying sequestered so you can get it done, you’re going to get a game which is out of date. A game started in 2002 and released this year would probably either reflect what idea started in 2002 and remained unchanged through the process . . . or something that was changed in the process as new tools / hardware / methods came along in the industry.

However, a 2 to 3 year leadtime would be just enough time to get the game finished before the next step on the “tech gear treadmill” which is the gaming industry’s pursuit of graphics and processing power

Runescape has proven that technology is largely irrelevant for the success of a game. Regardless of what you think about the game, its a MMO with crap graphics and a very large playerbase.

Apathy.6430:

Nabbis.5784:

Do you get anything in Counter-Strike, Battlefield 1942 or Minecraft for playing them? No. They are simply fun. I wait for the day when MMO developers will start taking risks and implement a system that will truly focus on fun instead of grind.

The problem with this, is that RPG content can never continue being fun. CS, Battlefield, and CoD are “fun” (using this term loosely) because they are competitive, and no two enemies are always the same and encounters are different each and every time.

Minecraft is fun in the same way that Lego’s are fun. It appeals to a different section of your psych than most other games, and that part likely cannot be appealed to in the scope of an MMO, though I’ve pitched a few ideas to my co-workers and other designers about how to translate it into an MMO, but nothing has come of it yet.

RPG content is stagnant and cannot continue being fun for the sake of fun. Gear grinds are intended to keep people hooked long enough for new content to be designed. You mention Skyrim in your post…how many hours did you play Skyrim? 100? 200?. I personally played it around 150 hours. I thoroughly enjoyed it…but there’s no reason to go back to playing it, even with the new DLCs.

The only way for this to be countered is user-generated content…but there’s many implications with that. EVE is the closest example to a successful user-generated game, but translating that into a standard MMO format is near impossible.

RPGs do not need to be stagnant. It is not a fact that you cannot implement features that will not have an appeal for a long time. Developers need to get this thru their skulls and abandon the conservatism that plagues them. And yes, those feutures need to different from grinding.

I continue to play skyrim as new content is generated, either by mods or official DLCs. If the game had a multiplayer with duels and group bosses i would be all over it even more.(Imagine the countless mods that could be build around that). Yes, perhaps it could not be called a MMORPG anymore when it would unrealistic to have the whole playerbase on a single server with all the different mods, but i would ditch any MMO for that kinda fun co-op experience with 5-20 people per server and massive customization options across servers.

kineticdamage.6279:

Nabbis.5784:

“Obviously you need to earn your gear in an MMORPG and people’s most favourite part of an MMORPG is the gear.”

This is the crux of all problems with modern MMO developement. Game designers, for some reason, cant get the idea out of their kitten that the only way to make a succesfull mmo is to focus on item gathering.

You can make content so fun that the reward of playing it would be enough for most people. Do you get anything in Counter-Strike, Battlefield 1942 or Minecraft for playing them? No. They are simply fun. I wait for the day when MMO developers will start taking risks and implement a system that will truly focus on fun instead of grind.

I’m happy to see more and more players voicing this fact. Thanks.

Simply, why do these devs actually focus on gear instead of mechanics ? Because everybody and their grandmother are talking/complaining/suggesting about gear (oh and big numbers on screen), instead of the way they play.
Look at this very forum .. 80% of new topics are about gear.. it’s depressing.

Because MMO players have been conditioned for this behavior. Who is this game targeted to? MMO players.(Yes im aware this game was promised to focus on fun, but the facts on design speak for itself. Also people need to keep in mind that other MMOS bled their own playerbase to this game, regardless of how it was marketed.)

The current implementation of ascended FOTM grind is a perfect example of people who do not wish to play a traditional MMO, complaining.

“Obviously you need to earn your gear in an MMORPG and people’s most favourite part of an MMORPG is the gear.”

This is the crux of all problems with modern MMO developement. Game designers, for some reason, cant get the idea out of their kitten that the only way to make a succesfull mmo is to focus on item gathering.

You can make content so fun that the reward of playing it would be enough for most people. Do you get anything in Counter-Strike, Battlefield 1942 or Minecraft for playing them? No. They are simply fun. I wait for the day when MMO developers will start taking risks and implement a system that will truly focus on fun instead of grind.

A perfect MMORPG in my mind would have been Skyrim with a multiplayer.(Obviosly additional feutures/adjustments would be needed but the core of the game is simply awesome and rewarding with minimum grind, except that you could do it with multiple people then.)

Like i said in OP, this aint a discussion about vertical vs horizontal progression. In essence, its simply a matter about taste. Still, if your going to throw away 5 years of marketing to a horizontal minded demographic, you better make sure vertical progression is almost flawless to attract a growd to it.(Right now, subpar, would be a compliment.)

You could have improved on making the whole Tyria relevant again by giving unique chained and timed events in different/all zones, which upon completion would give certain pieces to construct ascended gear.(You know, fun and creative developement that would help the zones come to life again)

You chose a boring dungeon grind that countless mmos have been using(with a certan mmo already perfecting it), instead of incorporating ascended items on a already established and mostly loved system. You chose the worst way to do this and it does a geat deal injustice to the ingenuity of this game.

Keep in mind that i mostly like FOTM, but it should have served a different purpose compared to the alternatives ANET could have taken.

This is not a discussion on whether you prefer horizontal or vertal progression. This is a discussion on how the implemented vertical progression is unimaginative, hilariously conservative and boring.

Regardless of what they truly found, the above is pure PR to give the new content a good image. The justification they provided is mute since we do not have access to the data ANET itself has. If forum posts can give some insight, then the only “wall” is the kittenet implementation on the means to get precursors.(And i fail to see how ascended gear is adressing that issue)

Those who work hard in life cannot be succesfull in a game that requires grind in order to progress(This is a simple fact), regardless of what philosophy they cater to. Just a simple statement for some people here.

The real issue here is that we need to “grind” and lots of time to get the gear as opposed to say, hard jumping puzzles and a scavenger hunt. Grinding is not hard, its time consuming.

Arena has the statistics. If the games population is being lowered by the absence of a more traditional endgame, then would those quitting because of the introduction of “statistical progression” have this game scrapped because of stubborness to take a middle ground? The “Ascended model” is not even close to the same scope of gear progression as in other games.

Yes, horizontal progression was promised. But, if the game cannot be sustained by horizontal progression then there will be no game for anyone at all. I prefer to have some compromise if it gives this game more longevity. If someone does not agree to compromise with such a premis, then they are petty and i dont wish to have those players in this community since they will whine about anything that does not suit their agenda. Good riddance if they quit. (Regardles on what progression they wish to have)

The PR is horrible though.

Its not even close on the same level of gear progression as other MMOs. I dont see the big deal with this, they are probably introducing only 1-2 items every 2-3 months with slighly(And i do put emphasis on slightly) better stats.

What the hell is the problem here? You are making a big issue of a small thing.

None of you complainers know squat on what exactly they indend to release.

Before you open your mouths that the world is ending, you should have the patch-notes presented before you. As it stands now, there are no notes telling you the exact nature of the change.

Theres also the problem with attunaments having too long cds and traits being quite meh, aside from arcana. Those are abit harder to balance, so im willing to go for a compromise in order to have this class more viable/less clunky as soon as possible.

After looking up the beta nerfs everything suddenly makes sense. Eles were OP with insane damage. The problem was mostly “fixed” by lowering damage on skills and increasing cds.

Heres the problem. Elementalists dont have any spammable moderate damage skills like the other classes and on-top of that, everything hits like wet noodle with a long cd. Good elementalist players can do nicely while good players of other classes are god-like.(And bad players from other classes can do nicely aswell.)

You have pretty much 2 choices whitout completely changing the class imo. Increase the damage of number 1 and some other abilities with putting longer durations on effects/stuns with the other skills. Or, you need to significantly decrease the cooldowns and buff damage to the current “cooldown skills”.

Elementals are a joke now. Fix them.

Thief, signet speed. Mesmer, no speed buffs. Took me about 40minutes to do it for the first time. Did it in 2 tries as a Mesmer. Both are human.

The puzzle is not “hard”. Just follow the most succesfull players movements.

Bugged for me aswell now. Hope you can fix this quickly

The only “dedicated” WvW players that want this crap are the newly transferred nightcapping heroes. Get out of my server.

As someone from Deso since the start id like to point out that making our ques +1h and keeping everything capped so that we cant recap things for karma/money is simply moronic.

I dont give two kitten on what our rank is, i want to PLAY and switch ownerships of WvW structures for a more fun and interactive gameplay, instead of sitting on other servers spawn points. Stop transfering to our server. No one with brain cells wants anymore people coming here to play the nightcapping heroes.

TBH theese games need to be more fps like. Everyone can kill someone in a few moves, but with enough skill the opponent wont be able to land those moves so that bad players would stand a chance. Warriors and Thiefes already have that, why cant eles?

This problem kitten up the whole meta-game. You need ages to learn how to set up the right skill order to do anything significant, while others just spam a few buttons and will be on a same level. Even if you master Ele, if someone masters a Warrior, he will beat you.

JeroenXP.5364:

Nabbis.5784:

Im sure they will be adding more rewards/ranks/achievements to this. It seems that alot of people dont understand that the game was just released and it cant contain everything from the start.

That I can accept but the thing is that obvious stuff like a buff for those realms being outnumbered being actually useful should be in game at launch. Like I don’t know more health and dmg?

Its so obvious that during the whole Wotlk, the said buff, was useless. All said and done, yes, there should be stuff like this. BUT, if the mmo-juggernaut didnt pull it off, what makes it so obvious?

You can buff health and damage all you want, but the cc is still outnumbered.

Jeez. Powerleveling to 80 in such a short time and complaining about no end-game? Im not sure ANY end-game would satisfy your type of crowd anyway. You would just be finished with it in 1 week, unless its somekinda unrealistic grind of “gather 1 million components for this”. Sorry, i , and most likely many others dont want that.

Or would you prefer the WoW model where you bash your head on the same 8 bosses for 6 months? Been there, done that. Im in GW for something different, and for me, its working.

Im sure they will be adding more rewards/ranks/achievements to this. It seems that alot of people dont understand that the game was just released and it cant contain everything from the start.