Showing Posts For Nate Rush.6970:
Exactly, I thought it would be really clever to give the ranger and really the ranger alone a couple stealth counters, like ability to track them, or their pet hunts them down….something. It would in very least close the “stealth loop” of rock-paper-scissors.
(while simultaneously buffing the under-used ranger win/win)
I would give thieves anything they asked for if they made fighting stealth an engaging experience.
Snipers and Stealthers are completely different.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ru_rXq2LYg0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRBcjsOt0_g&list=UUCODtTcd5M1JavPCOr_Uydg&index=4
The video you linked was all about snipers right?
I think i’d rather get killed by a thief, then safely from 1500 range.
o\
Do you ever watch something all the way through, or do you consistently read/watch things for the first piece of dirt you can make an uneducated response to? Just curious.
I think that is my point exactly.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRBcjsOt0_g&list=UUCODtTcd5M1JavPCOr_Uydg&index=4
I’ll just keep linking this till the kiddies get it.
And with that edit,- I see what you were trying to say. From there, I can completely disagree with you. Apposed to the counter-play being, “he has stealth, he has an advantage I can do nothing about.” How hard would it to be to implement, “he has stealth, I have things that counter stealth, now we have a meta-game.”?
Is it right to say that because they have an ambush, it is and always will be un-fun to play against? No, its poor design, there are countless ways to add to the game and henceforth the choices of the gamer that could make stealth, and fighting against stealth a welcomed part of the game. As it sits, in its basic form it is nothing better than paper to rocks without scissors to stop.
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o\ (<—That’s a facepalm btw.)
I just finished typing out why it is such a terrible defensive argument to simply say ignore him, in fact you quoted me saying it. Yet, you write a longer post on why you should just ignore him.
WHAT AREN’T YOU GETTTING?
I never said I personally HAVE to kill the thief. Infact, if you dig for it, I say I often AM the one who just continues running as they aren’t worth my time. That being said, you can’t tell me that a game mechanic is a good one if the targets its being used on defense is ignorance.
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Alright, then I will counter it this way, whats the point in chasing someone who is in stealth, not hurting anyone?
This isn’t always the case. Sorry to say it, but to some people, classes, or other cannon builds, a cloaked thief is still plenty of dps to take them down.
Bottom line it doesn’t matter if 5-10-100-2000 people say it’s fun and balanced to play a stealth thief in this game. If even 10% the number are saying how not fun it is, the design was poorly implemented.
I personally don’t give a kitten if a thief can or cannot survive x,y,z while killing 1,2,3. What I care about is the fact that swinging wildly into the air trying to hit the invisible man is simply not fun to do.
From experience its fun as hell to play a stealth-troll. Trying to kill one on the other hand is really something you just pass on. And that is the defense most are trying to make….which is even more sad.
People’s idea of defending a working mechanic is you should just ignore the cloaked thief as he doesn’t do too much damage. Does that sound right?
Is it so hard to see how incredibly wrong that statement is?
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Like in many other games, most players talk about other classes like they have all the traits at the same time, and they can use all skills at once.
“You can remove stuns without cooldowns” “You can stealth all the time” “You do lots of damage”
Thiefs can do all that… but not at the same time. They don’t have cooldowns, but they have a resource, so breaking stuns means they have no initiative to hurt you, and so on.
Right they just pop stealth, and while the person is running around like a monkey with a sledgehammer swinging wildly in the air, using their cooldowns, the thief holding back watching, regaining their resources, ready to strike again without consequence. Worst case scenario, they repeat process until threat is gone. Stop trying to defend a broken mechanic.
Are you going to increase guardian symbols or necro marks while you are at it? Or is this post specifically for another “thing” the thief needs to beat all classes.
You’re getting off topic. This is about stealth being broken, which can only relate to thieves. Vigor and things of that nature should be left to the big boys that have to manage more than one thing at a time.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRBcjsOt0_g&list=UUCODtTcd5M1JavPCOr_Uydg&index=4
This video pretty much sums up everything that is wrong with stealth.
Its from extra creditz…actual logic, great group of folks.
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I have 350 hours on my thief, before I rolled to something more….tasteful. I know the traits. 10 seconds of vigor on a 15 second heal that evades/removes kd/immobilize/chill, and (teleports for lack of better term) sounds pretty strong to me. Oh wait it was.
I built the acrobatic teleporter you are trying to say doesn’t exist. It does exist, and it does very well. It does have limitations as every class should though. *cough. As I said though, there is a lot more situation awareness in it than “am I stealth, yes, ok good…or am I stealth, no, ok stealthed, ok good.”
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So, you would like to be able to tank more, evade more, clear more condition, more teleports, do more damage, all while invisible? Is this about summed up?
Would just like to comment that he rerolled engineer to thief, and now he is thief master. Think you may have missed the larger picture doch, so was giving you some more fodder.
They don’t have the defences or the mitigations to survive any error, barring their few and far-between stunbreakers and abilities to land stealth and cleanse conditions
Any other defenses or mitigation they don’t have?
Perhaps I should have expanded – you spec in to stealth and get access to cleanses, you gimp your damage fairly harshly. The fight takes longer, and anyone not in glass cannon gear and with even slightly decent play will wipe the floor with you, because you simply do not have the armor to keep taking hits, or the health to keep taking condition damage (using both C+D and stealth utilities, you get the chance to remove a good few conditions and get some health back, all the while giving your opponent time to recover and for their cooldowns to tick down). There is nowhere near enough capacity to survive in comparison to other classes, because Thieves simply aren’t built that way.
You want access to stunbreakers? Then you’re lost your stealth utilities or you’ve picked up a sword and lost access to any burst damage and are forced to deal slow, sustained damage that is ten times more manageable. You use D/D and stunbreaker utilities? You better hope your enemies don’t have the single brain cell required to dodge C+D or you’re most likely buggered.
Options for a Thief to survive for extensive periods either sacrifice damage to an extent that is not felt by other professions or aren’t adequate at all. Nice of you to cut out the “if they spec in to stealth” part in an attempt to twist the statement.
Typically if a class has only one fallback, they are not happy with the class, yet thieves claiming stealth is their only option aren’t complaining about it at all. Wonder why this is?
They don’t have the defences or the mitigations to survive any error, barring their few and far-between stunbreakers and abilities to land stealth and cleanse conditions (if they are specced in to stealth at all).
That shows what you know I guess, Thief can be built to break stuns and remove conditions all day long (certainly more than any of the other four classes I play), no stealth required.
Infiltrator’s Strike breaks stun and removes a condition, no C/D at all. And that’s just one skill, add Shadowstep, Withdraw, Roll for Intitiative, Signet of Agility, Infiltrator’s Signet etc – you can fill your hotbar with stun breakers and condition removal – and all those skills add other utility on the side – evasion, improved precision, initiative regen, teleports etc. Get the drift?
This is more or less true. I mean he is naming a lot of stuff that clearly can’t be put on the bar at same time and things of that nature, but you can’t say that thieves are ONLY slippery because of stealth. Stealth is just easier, and its broken, hence why you see it more than evasive thieves been played as intended.
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Thieves have no right to call anyone noobs.
Thieves are playing to most noob friendly crutch class, the same as every stealth class.The fact that thieves have nothing to say but, “L2P, its so easy, all you gotta do is this,” just proves that they are mostly played by pretentious, teenage children.
If you play a thief you are a noob, not to be mean but when I see you in WvW I will use my Engineer to smack you in the face, CC you in place, then AoE your chicken kitten till you die or more likely run away crying mashing your refuge button. Then you can cut that bit out of the video you will post of all your upleveled afk ganks with some shetty heavy metal song blarring in the background.
I about died from laughing.
They don’t have the defences or the mitigations to survive any error, barring their few and far-between stunbreakers and abilities to land stealth and cleanse conditions
Any other defenses or mitigation they don’t have?
The bottom line is, and always will be, that stealth in its current form is broken.
Because there is no hard counter, thieves can do as they wish relentlessly. Until there is a class (hopefully rangers as they need something special) that can see stealth, thieves will remain unchecked.
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Hi, I just want to say that my main is a guardian, but it’s pretty clear that rangers need some love. I had an idea that will probably never be followed through from devs, but you never know…when things get enough support things happen.
Anyway, I thought it would be really cool for rangers to gain a “tracking” ability or trait line, or something of that nature, perhaps called “scent” through beast line. Whatever you want to call it, the basis would be the ability to detect, (dare I say it), HIDDEN ENEMIES. What this would do would basically kill two birds with one awesome stone.
1: It would provide a direct counter to the incredibly erroneous stealth-troll theives.
2: Would give a bit more incentive/purpose for general ranger population (sorry if that’s offensive, but I think you know what I mean).
Clearly, I don’t have all the details ironed out, nor should I have to, but the general idea I think is a strong one. Support this if you think it’s right, and again, I’m no ranger, I’m suggesting this for YOU guys. Not that this is a thief discussion, but my opinion on them is that they really are a balanced class, but stealth having no direct counter is the fundamental problem with the way they are being played.
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Can I just say every time I see a scepter/focus, or scepter/torch guard a little piece of me dies?
In his defense, 4 seconds of invuln is a lot more skillful than 4 minutes of find the invisible man.
To be honest, the more I think about it, the more I think thieves are perfectly fine the way they are, but (and this is a HUGE but) other classes (not even all of them) need to have a spec in which they are able to detect and/or reveal stealth. (Engineer goggles, ranger’s tracking/scent (off top of my head (which could also be a way to buff said classes as they are pretty lackluster atm anyway)))
Will that tik a lot of thieves off? Yep. Will a lot of stealth-trolls cry murder and blame said class/es of being OP? Oh ya. Is it a balanced way to solve all the bickering and finger pointing? I think so. Is giving a mechanic to one or two classes that is counter-able by mechanics given to one or two different classes fair? Absolutely, if my math checks out…..yes, yes it does.
Ohai Paper, See you been messin’ with all these Rocks…meet my friend Scissors….
End of stealth thieves overpowered thread forever, goodnight, happy new-year.
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If a thief makes a mistake, depending on what kind of thief he is, he usually has to run away.
This, exactly. That is the point I am making with you. The comment you made about thieves punishing others for mistakes essentially equates to the thief killing that person. Where as, if the thief makes a mistake, it’s inherent mobility allows it to have an ace up its sleeve to get out of dodge if need be.
To go into it further, that isn’t even my issue with the class. I actually think that aspect of it IS what makes it an interesting class. My issue, and I’m sure many other peoples issue, is the stealth invincibility (extreme word, general idea). One person should not be able to dance around taking jabs at many, many time their numbers because they cannot be seen. It is as I said, the paper to rocks, without scissors to stop. If there was a way to build a ranger for example to be able to see stealth, it would bring it back into the line of balance. As is, it is unhindered, unequaled.
I myself, know well enough to just keep going where I’m going when a stealth-troll pokes me. Why? because I know they can’t kill me, and I can’t kill them. However, some people are a lot softer than I, and can be killed by said troll. I am giving my protest as a former thief of how, I too, think it’s mildly ridiculous to be able to do what many thieves are capable of doing via stealth.
If you are unable to see what a near epidemic of stealth thieves there are on the WvW fields; I think that says less about me and more about you.
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Thieves feed off bad players, the more bad players you have on your team, the harder a thief is to kill.
Thieves get stronger every time you make a mistake, every time your team makes a mistake it punishes everyone else.
Thieves are hated because we teach people how to play the game by punishing them for being bad and making mistakes, that is why we have 100 threads about nerfing us.
Actually, I think thieves are hated because most share this mindset. If you were to step off your pedestal for a minute, you may see why the class is a bit over the top. I know I had to, and it wasn’t easy.
Furthermore, what happens when the thief makes a mistake? Is it punished? No, it goes stealth, backs up/shadow-steps, regens, and tries again. Can you honestly say that is the epitome of balance?Your speaking of 1v1 imbalance, this is a group game.
You did not lose the fight, so who cares if the thief got away, you mean to say that you should win?
I read your posts, you played a guardian, and gave examples of what a guardian can’t do.
A thief however, can’t go into a zerg, protect all his allies and give powerful boons to them all, switch to an elite and heal an entire zerg of players, and then put on group protection and regeneration, and turn a losing fight into a winning one, while a guardian can.
A Thief can’t put on a greatsword and pull an entire enemy team into all his allies aoes and destroy them all with coordination, a guardian can.
A Thief cannot zone in the middle of a battle, rez an allie and put on stability and protect and help someone up while being hammered on while aoes, a guardian can.
a Thief cannot go into PvE, take on multiple enemies at once, tank them all, and then come out unphased while protecting his team and healing them and granting everyone boons, a Guardian can.
Sorry, but thieves specialize in mobility, if you can’t catch him, so? if this is WvWvW you have other objectives. If this is Spvp you still have the point you were protecting.
I made no mention of 1-1; I have no idea where you got that from.
You stated that thieves punish people for making mistakes. I asked you what happens when a thief makes a mistake?
I’m well aware there are differences between guards and thieves, they are completely different. So, instead of trying to push the subject to there and tell me there are things guards can do that thieves can’t (of which I’m well aware.) Why don’t you start off by actually answering your own misnomer of what happens when a thief makes a mistake? Because, I can tell you right now a guard sure can’t vanish into thin air when he messes up.
If you did actually read what I wrote, (of which I doubt, you probably just skimmed for dirt). You would see that I have played a thief too, to the fullest extent. I know the capabilities and limitations of the class quite well. I will step out on a limb and assume you are under the assumption the thief should be able to harass 7,8,9,10 people alone unhindered. As I stated, I think that is the argument line, and that is where you are going to have to accept that people will think different.
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Thieves feed off bad players, the more bad players you have on your team, the harder a thief is to kill.
Thieves get stronger every time you make a mistake, every time your team makes a mistake it punishes everyone else.
Thieves are hated because we teach people how to play the game by punishing them for being bad and making mistakes, that is why we have 100 threads about nerfing us.
Actually, I think thieves are hated because most share this mindset. If you were to step off your pedestal for a minute, you may see why the class is a bit over the top. I know I had to, and it wasn’t easy.
Furthermore, what happens when the thief makes a mistake? Is it punished? No, it goes stealth, backs up/shadow-steps, regens, and tries again. Can you honestly say that is the epitome of balance?
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This is my first post on official forum, and I’m going to make it here.:
I’ve been playing this game from bwe1. I started with a guard, but launched the game with thief. I played said thief until 80, got plenty of time under him, something like 300-400 hours. Eventually, after all the “ego-patting” wore off; it became very clear how incredibly imbalanced the class is. Don’t get me wrong, much like everyone else I enjoyed it, and its fun as hell to run amok doing essentially anything you want. However, there was always that “dirty” feeling in the back of my mind.
The problem with the class is how many have already stated, the ability to act without consequence. For example, on my thief I know with the utmost certainty, that I could go by myself into a group of 5-6 opponents and be able to at least distract them if not kill them, while still being able escape myself if need be. Versly, if I was to attempt the same action on my Guardian (who I have 600 hours on), it would be a noble act, I may be able to down one, but ultimately I would die in the end.
Now of course that is just my example, and there are bound to be different opinions of
it. I think the majority of thieves in their current state assume that is what “they should be able to to do”, and ultimately, I think that is where the line is drawn and the arguments ensue. Should a single player on a class be able to harass 5,6,7 opponents and come out generally unscathed? Coming from the other side of the fence now, I say no, they should not.
The bell curve of skill level plays a huge role in the equation of the thief survive/damage ratio, as it does with any class. The problem I see is that the class seems to be set up to the lowest standard allowing people with less than a general understanding to do alright, which of course allows the Cyber Athletic League players to stretch the class way beyond its means. It is the incredibly good players who make the class look like a minor-deity, where as the average Joe complains it is nothing but a glass cannon. So from that perspective, it is hard to judge definitively if, yes its “crazy OP”, or not.
Ultimately, my opinion will remain on the “it needs tweaks” line, specifically stealth as a whole needs looking at. I strongly believe the cloak system is the root of the problem. It is essentially the paper to everyone’s rock, with no scissors per-say to counter it.
Can thieves be hit or immobilized while in stealth? Yes. however Immobilizes, while a great counter in theory, are essentially a joke to thieves. They have the most ways of moving out of, or plain out removing immobilize than any other class. Henceforth, the likelihood of aoe focusing down a highly mobile invisible person is slim-to-none, unless of course the person/people chasing have ESP (Extrasensory Perception).
So to sum this wall of text up, consider this the confessions of a thief who saw the light. I think those who hide behind the “learn two play” mentality are still enjoying their previously mentioned “ego-patting”. Eventually, they too will begin to feel the dirt and seek something deeper, and dare I say, more challenging; something that provides them with consequences for their decisions apposed to ten ways of solving the issue.
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