Guild Wars 2

JonnyForgotten.4276:

Nenshoukarasu.6598:

Blacksarevok.8104:

imo it just needs like + 25-30% damage on #1 and it’s fine.

nah 3 is useless and tbh i never use it because as a thief i don’t really need it.. if i’m stunned i need to evade anyways to get rid of that and if someone is too close i also use my evade to run away. or just simply 5 if i have enough initiative left (which is rarely the case due the high init costs on most of the skills)

3 can actually be quite useful for positioning, especially when you don’t have enough ini to bail out with #5.

nah i rather use my evasion then 3 because it breaks any kind of movement debuff and it let’s me run further then just hopping a few steps back.
on the other hand if 3 would give you stealth on top of it it would’ve more use.

they nerfed it because ppl were abe to get to places they weren’t supposed to get like for instance on top of walls in wvw.

but i agree with you…
the thing is it should work as long as you can walk to your target in a straight line without jumping
but the system is kinda buggy and sometimes it lets you port on top of a wall where stairs are either left or on the right site of it and sometimes even the smallest bumb in the road blocks you from shadowstepping to your target…

Blacksarevok.8104:

imo it just needs like + 25-30% damage on #1 and it’s fine.

nah 3 is useless and tbh i never use it because as a thief i don’t really need it.. if i’m stunned i need to evade anyways to get rid of that and if someone is too close i also use my evade to run away. or just simply 5 if i have enough initiative left (which is rarely the case due the high init costs on most of the skills)

well yeah shortbow needs a remake…
but your changes are kinda too much imo

> Shortbow 1 –increase rate of fire by 25% or damage by 25%
> Shortbow 2 – its fine as it is… maybe increasing the AoE field by 20% or so dunno
> Shortbow 3 – well as it is now its useless so adding stealth would be nice (ranger has something similar with stealth so why not give the “master of stealth” the option to do it as well?
> Shortbow 4 – increase the radius of the poison flield by 20%-50%
> Shortbow 5 – add break stun + remove immob is all it needs imo

well it is a shortbow so the range of 900 kinda is ok but it should have a higher rate of fire since you are quicker to draw the shortbow compared to a longbow.

the thing is.. you don’t even have to run into his traps.. he can pull you into them from a 1200 range no matte what you do… even invisibility doesn’t help because his pull still targets the thief for example…

on top of that dh has tons of shields as well to prevent bursting.

dh was already strong and still dh got another buff while others who needed a buff got a “ghostnerf” again…

ofc those dhs don’t want to get nerfed… a profession that doesn’t need any kind of playerskill to get wins … i mean come on those ppl couln’t play anymore since that would require them to get some sort of playerskill x’D

yeah thats the only thing good about daredevil… but even then.. there are other professions which were already strong and were buffed even further like dragonhunter…
you can’t escape one… he pulls you back from a range of 1200 even if you are invisible and you land right into his traps and are dead because they deal so much dmg to a thief…

as a thief you can’t really fight back because fightning back means bursting which requires you to constantly get in and out of close combat which is kinda impossible …
and its not only dh who is that strong compared to a thief…

yet thief only got a “buff” on weapons which are very rarely used due losing alot of utility when doing so (or as in mh pistol you also lose a kitten ton of dps)

so yeah… while others got a buff thief recieved another ghostnerf instead of a needed buff again

and for those who say “gitgud” or “l2p” …
as a thief/daredevil you NEED to be twice as good as your opponent do even have an equal chance of winning a 1v1 and no a thief shouldn’t be looking only for 2v1 fights … that means he can’t stand his own in a 1v1.
i’m well aware that there are tons of videos out there that shows a thief owning other ppl but guess what… everyone with 2+ years can stomp a few noobs that has nothing to do with the profession itself.

best thing you could do is avoiding thief/daredevil in general.. every other class outpeforms it.
the only good thing a thief/daredevil is good for is running and capping in pvp … just stay away from any fight since that class got another ghostnerf again….

but don’t be surprised how bad thief/daredevil is compared to other professions.
thief/daredevil got another ghostnerf again

gg anet gg why not just remove the profession already or just remove its useless weapons because all it still can do is run and cap points in pvp for everything else a thief/daredevil underpeforms in any form.

Akagami.9861:

actually yes the thief is the most mobile class in the game, besides the trait that gives you speed, you have shortbow and a utility skill that teleports you. Among all the classes that thief can reach a certain point fastest using all those. This is the main idea for a thief, cap and uncapp points. Turn the tide of battle in your teams favor. Let the tankier classes do the whole 1 vs 1 thing or 2 vs 2 or 3 vs 3, while you take care of the points.

PvP is not a deathmatch….controling the points is important too.

And what you are complaining right now, every other player that i completely and utterly destroyed on the battlefield can complain too…only in reverse “OOO thief is OP, oooo so much burst damage…oooo stealth….ooo he can jump in and out of battle”.

Really it’s a matter of learning the class and knowing how to counter others while also knowing what is expected of you.

Thiefs are made to turn the tide of battles…that’s what i belive and that’s what i like…a good thief makes the difference between loosing and winning.

Sure a tankish dragonhunter can kill us and others…but just killing in 1 vs 1 doesn’t win you the game… strategy and wits do.

Is the thief as a class perfect? Hell no…i can’t even get into raids cause i don’t like other classes besides my thief…and sometimes squishy means 1 hit and you are dead. But it’s not boring, and it keeps you on your toes all the time.

Maybe you need to consider a re-roll if you don’t like thief that much. Find something that makes you happy…there are enough classes in the game. No reason you should be stuck with something you don’t like.

hahaha don’t make me laugh x’D

nope thief isn’t a milkman who can only deliver points. a thief should be a close combat dd class (damage dealer) but the thief fails completely in that aspect.
so in pvp its purpose is to run and cap points while avoiding any battle
and in pve a thief is pretty much useless because there aren’t any points to cap lol

yeah sure a thief has the ability to travel with its short bow but guess what… it costs 5 initiantive (in case you can’t count thats 3 arrows max and that will leave you wihtout initiative to use any other kills but meh that doesn’t matter because you aren’t supposed to fight anyways xD) and the arrow’s range is 900 besides that even the smallest bumb on the road stops you from teleporting to your target.
and shadowstep? yeah good luck with that… 40s cd so it only let’s you travel a range of 1200 every 40s (and back but if i’m going with your mindset you don’t want to go back because your purpose as a thief is to cap)

well thats it for your so called “momentum advantage” for everything else you need a target in order to shadowstep to it.

considering a re-roll and useing a different class… well gues what that doesn’t change the problem a thief has…
the thief itself needs a buff… or even a redesign to be usefull again. your points are just blunt and only point out the problems a thief has… beeing only there for capping points shouldn’t be the purpose of a close combat dd class which the thief should be.

if i’m going with your mindset a thief doesn’t need any weapons besides the bow so why not simply take away all his other weapons? its current role (according to the majority of thiefs i met) is only to run and cap points in pvp for everything else its useless to play a thief.

well its true some thiefs out there are amazing but everyone can be amazing with 2+years of exp against others who haven’t played that much …
sad to see the thief so useless and nerfed…
thats not what balance and a thief should be .

Akagami.9861:

Nenshoukarasu.6598:

Akagami.9861:

Warriors are not a big problem, actuallly no class is a problem for thief. Players that master a certain class are a big problem… i met a few dragonhunters that just humiliated me…and a ranger.

Also as thief you don’t really go 1 vs 1 too much, unless you are sure you can take that player down. You just stalk in the shadows and make a battle 2 vs 1

so in other words a thief is so weak he has to fight 2 vs 1 or has to pick up a noob in a 1 vs 1 because against even skilled ppl the thief will always underpeform?
yeah nope no class should be that weak.

other classes can deal the same dmg as a thief (or even more) way easier and don’t have that much of a risk in order to do so.

sure there are some thiefs out there who can win a 1v6 but those are ppl with tons of exp under their belt you can’t take them as example …. everyone with 2+ years of exp can stomp 6 new players who don’t have that much exp in pvp/wvw.

thief is poorly designed compared to other classes. you always have to play your thief 2 times better then your enemy plays his class in order to have an equal chance in a 1v1 and that just isn’t right.
(and for those who’re crying “if you buff theif then those players will even be better” well yeah but imagine those players with better classes instead of a thief they would even be more efficient in a 1v1)

stealth already got a very hard nerf with all the revealt debuffs and bs having an icd and let’s not forget all those shields and invulnerability we have to deal with atm.

That’s why it’s called Thief and not… Warrior with Daggers. It’s a squishy class, high risk high reward kind of class.

True it’s hard playing a thief…but a thiefs role isn’t to 1 vs 1 all match long, it’s to cap and uncapp enemy points, and when there is a 1 vs 1 fight you jump in and help your teamate. You help downed members with stealth and in certain maps you do the extra stuff…take the artifacts, orbs etc… again high mobility.

Thief isn’t supposed to do what every class does, you can’t have a warriors hp and defense and a thies mobility and ability to jump in and out of combat easily.

I jumped into pvp yesterday for the first time in 1 year, and i lost 3 out of 10 matches.
The first match i had no idea what to do anymore, so i got killed all the time
after a few tweks to my build and rotation ideas i had a 5 wins streak against some decent teams.

I still don’t know how to counter every class, i met mesmers dragonhunters and rangers that wiped the floor with me…but there were others that had no idea what to do so i just stomped them easily while capping points.

It’s all learning to play the thief, learn what makes the class shine and what doesn’t.

No one is expecting a thief to 1 vs 1 all the time, just when you know when to win…if some guardian wipes the floor with you, next time you see him avoid him at all costs if you are alone. Wait for an opening, if you see a downed enemy you can easily stomp him thanks to stealth.

and i suck at being a thief…there are others wayyyy better than me. There are some videos on youtube that will blow your mind. Watch some of them and try to keep an open mind, and learn.

Cheers.

a theif doesn’t need the defens of a warrior lol yes its squishy but the high risk high reward… sry i can’t see the high reward part of that

again i’m not saying thief needs the same hp as a warrior lol
everyone can win a 2v1 fight so thats not the point of beeing a thief
a thief isn’t the fastest class in the game u know… other classes also have +33% run speed and can actually fight

so basically you are just replying what i was saying… as a thief all you can do is run away or try to find ppl already on low health or else you don’t stand a chance in 1v1

i’ve seen those videos you speak of and all i can say is… you have to play your thief 2 times better then your enemy to even have an equal chance.
its easy to stomp noobs but guess what… every class can do that xD

no a thief should be a 1v1 class and not a “scout” that only can run for his life.
a thief has to fight 2 vs 1 or has to pick up a less skilled player or one with low health in a 1 vs 1 because against even skilled ppl the thief will always underpeform and lose…
and thats not what balance is.

stealth already got a very hard nerf with all the revealt debuffs and bs having an icd and let’s not forget all those shields and invulnerability we have atm.
his weaponskills are also kinda strange compared to others … with only having his AA, BS and at max 2 weapon skills to deal dmg while the other weaponskills and his 6 – 0 skills are more for utility then dmg.

well let’s get back to the topic “what do you think thief needs to be balanced”

for offensive:

• buff some weaponskills to make them usefull again. (currently d/p is the weaponset to go because it offers the utility a thief needs while others fail to support the thief properly)

• buff the range of pistols and AA of Shortbow to 1200 (kinda strange that you can steal further then you can shoot with a pistol or sb)

for devensive:

• 25% chance to evade during steath (with all the reveald debuffs and visibility throu dots on a thief its pretty easy to spot a stealthed thief and that kinda makes up for his lack of defensive capabilities while other professions are dealing dmg easier and have more defensive options with shields clones pets and so on)

• removing his self reveal debuff (no other class debuffs itself without gaining something)

sure there are some good thiefs out there but everyone with 2+ years of exp can stomp 6 noobs in a fight. those who claim a theif is balanced are only those few ppl and you can’t take them into account for a thief balance thread like this.

other professions deal the same (or even more) dmg way easier without the risk a thief has.
a thief has to fight 2 vs 1 or has to pick up a less skilled player or one with low health in a 1 vs 1 because against even skilled ppl the thief will always underpeform and lose…
and thats not what balance is.

Akagami.9861:

Warriors are not a big problem, actuallly no class is a problem for thief. Players that master a certain class are a big problem… i met a few dragonhunters that just humiliated me…and a ranger.

Also as thief you don’t really go 1 vs 1 too much, unless you are sure you can take that player down. You just stalk in the shadows and make a battle 2 vs 1

so in other words a thief is so weak he has to fight 2 vs 1 or has to pick up a noob in a 1 vs 1 because against even skilled ppl the thief will always underpeform?
yeah nope no class should be that weak.

other classes can deal the same dmg as a thief (or even more) way easier and don’t have that much of a risk in order to do so.

sure there are some thiefs out there who can win a 1v6 but those are ppl with tons of exp under their belt you can’t take them as example …. everyone with 2+ years of exp can stomp 6 new players who don’t have that much exp in pvp/wvw.

thief is poorly designed compared to other classes. you always have to play your thief 2 times better then your enemy plays his class in order to have an equal chance in a 1v1 and that just isn’t right.
(and for those who’re crying “if you buff theif then those players will even be better” well yeah but imagine those players with better classes instead of a thief they would even be more efficient in a 1v1)

stealth already got a very hard nerf with all the revealt debuffs and bs having an icd and let’s not forget all those shields and invulnerability we have to deal with atm.

Alveen.7239:

Nenshoukarasu.6598:

lol even tho there is no such thing as a dodge spam xD
unlike all your shilds we can only dodge one more time and a tiny bit faster but that is nothing in comparison to your endless shields , invulnerability, resist and ofc aoe stuns

rather get rid of 50% of the shields then dodge… unlike you a thief doesn’t even take 3 hits to get killed x’D

I don’t know why everyone assumes I play a DH or something but I main thief/power mes. Acro dodges are stupid at the moment and saying it can’t keep up with other classes doesn’t mean that it’s impossible, It’s more a case of l2play imo.

if l2p means to you that you have to shieldspam all the time and beeing invulnerable to any dmg while dealing imense dmg with simply a button click then lol

fyi it has nothing to do with l2p at all … 2 ppl with the same skill lvl … thief will always underpeform… doesn’t matter if pvp pve or wvw as a thief you’ll die in an instand once you enter close combat so all you can do is step in make 2 hits tops and run away and hope for your enemie that he doesn’t use a bubble or kills you while you are trying to reenter the battle…
heck there are even skills that still target a thief while he is invisible. 3 dodges is nice but doesn’t nowhere compensate for all those shielspam thats going on right now.

i don’t say its impossible but as a thief you always have to be 2 times better then your enemy … even as a damage dealer you get outpeformed due having to run away all the time or else you die… the range option is laughable as well

alchemyst.2165:

Alveen.7239:

alchemyst.2165:

“Staff acro dodge thief is op. I don’t know what makes it op or how to nerf it but its op trust me.”

If reasonable evidence can’t be provided, then you can’t really make a claim like that.

I didn’t think I’d need to prove my point seeing as most people already know what I’m talking about. Also I the whole premise of the thread was that the amount of dodges were stupid, but it looks like you’re not fully understanding what I’m trying to say so let me explain it more simply.

Acro thief can dodge too much.

X specialization of Y Class can Z too much. This has been true for pretty much every class ever since HoT. Nerfing thief would cause it to become supbar relative to other classes once again.

Now, if powercreep were to be toned down equally across all classes, that would be a smarter move for the game without hurting comparative strength across classes. Relative balance is fairly decent right now (much better than before). Thief is stronger now, but not op.

You’re also talking about a build that’s really only used in duels, and the game isn’t designed around dueling.

daheck are you talking about… thief is stronger? best joke ever dude

as a thief you always have to play your class 2 times better then your opponend in order to have an even chance of winning a 1v1. the amount of skill level you need to play a thief is much higher then with any other class and thats not what balance is nor should be….

between even players a thief will always underpeform.

it is a joke now how much work a thief has to do for getting a kill. unlike other classes which simply stand there put on a shield and deal more dmg then a thief without any risk at all…

ppl complaining about a thief running… he can’t do anything else because a thief dies within 2 hits while other classes can take more and are dealing more dmg then a theif does with bs…
srsly bs deals ~4k dmg crit on those testing golems (and yes i’m useing the current meta build for thief)
other classes deal more dmg and don’t have the risk of dying in an instand
a thief can’t last long in close combat and its range capabilities are flat out a joke
that means there is no dps for a thief (i’m aware his AA was buffed but that was more like a ghost nerf instead of a buff to the thief )
bursting is also a nogo because of all those shields so they simply heal back their 4k hp they lost from a bs and on top of that ppl who are inside their bubble can still attack so they don’t even have a risk of dying.

lol even tho there is no such thing as a dodge spam xD
unlike all your shilds we can only dodge one more time and a tiny bit faster but that is nothing in comparison to your endless shields , invulnerability, resist and ofc aoe stuns

rather get rid of 50% of the shields then dodge… unlike you a thief doesn’t even take 3 hits to get killed x’D

Straegen.2938:

a.) Offhand Dagger is a mess and Shortbow is mostly for travel but every other weapon has solid play right now. Dare Devil is pretty much the only must-have for most builds. In that sense the thief is fairly well balanced… against average players.

b.) Against skilled players on both sides, the class under performs. It is pretty weak in duels, has lessor skirmish capability (with stealth group exceptions) and is mostly worthless in a zerg. The class is a cannibalistic vulture in competitive play.

c.) To be “balanced” it needs to be restored to its 1v1, dueling strength in skilled play. To me that means reducing AA damage and improving most initiative based skills across the board. This also means reducing passive defensive skills/traits in the game.

a.) can’t agree with that… as a thief you have to be at least 2 times better with it then your opponend with his class in order to win a 1v1… the amount of skill level a thief requires compared to other classes is unreasonably high.

b.) thats true… all those sield spamming and aoe stunning is crippling a thief way too much… it only takes 2-3 hits to kill a thief and he doesn’t have any defense options (you can’t perma dodge like some noobs are trying to use as an argument and stealth isn’t really a defensive option since you can still get hit, are in battle and pets and some skills are still locking on to you)

c.) sounds good to me but does it really help? you have 2 max 3 offensive skills as a thief (counting 1 and the bs as one skill).
i’d like to see at least the self-reveal debuff gone. its nonsense that a thief debuffs itself while no other class is doing so.

so much for “Experts at stealth and surprise, thieves can move through the shadows, vanish into thin air, or steal items from their opponents and use them as weapons. Thieves practice an agile, acrobatic fighting style, which can make them very hard to hit.” … 3 dodges… yeah very hard to hit… not…

Felwal.9618:

Nenshoukarasu.6598:

DeceiverX.8361:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

[spoiler]

18 init would be way too much baseline, for one, and Trickery will be effectively mandatory so long as ToTC, LA and BT are still used in one trait line with no similar or superior options to any of them in other lines.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Those are only real reason why Trick and DD became mandatory in most cases.

Wat.

You mean the third dodge, amazing cleanse potential on EA or huge additional damage, CV, effectively a second heal from DF, and either an effective immunity to immob/cripple/chill or easily-permanent stealth uptime were not good enough reasons not to take Daredevil?

The only reason to ever drop Daredevil aside from ghost thief is if core trait lines get massively buffed (unlikely), ANet absolutely gores it with aggressive HoT-content nerfs (even more unlikely) or ANet power creeps the next elite spec to the point the thief becomes actually overpowered (also fairly unlikely). [/spoiler]

stopped at permanent stealth….
either you haven’t played thief at all or you are just a troll … there is no such thing as permanent stealth.
with d/p you can get a max of 3 stacks stealth (which are ~5s tops because of animation time and so on) after one attack you get a debuff (revealt) which makes you immune to your own stealth. revealt lasts 3s in pve and wvw and 4s in pvp.

oh and before you ask no there is also no perma dodge either.

thief requires the most ammount of playerskill to use. thats not what balance is…
all a thief can do is cap/decap a point and looking for a 2v1 or an enemy on max 50% health.

a thief should be more like an assassin… a 1v1 class … its kinda dumb to have a thief as useless leg man (english isn’t my 1st language dunno if thats the correct translation tho). everyone can win in a 2v1 or against an opponent with 50% health.

1. As it is now you can actually 1v1 a lot of classes especially in WvW for example rev is pretty easy to deal with same goes for most necros.
2. As for permanent stealth the o ly thing you need to gain perma stealth is shadow arts you need to take both hidden thief and shadows rejuvenation plus make sure you have blinding powder equipped and there you go perma stealth. it can also be done with bounding dodger and its a bit easier but it can be done without it.
3. Of course if you just try to spam 3 you will stand no chance against pretty much any class.

Edit: I should note that I use escapist absolution and shadow arts so I’m very resistant to conditions that helps a lot against necros

1. not really… there are tons of shields, releavs, DoTs and AoEs which makes it extremly difficould to fight with a thief in a 1v1 situation.
as thief you don’t have tons of shields to use or any range advantage and yes we do have 3 dodges and can dodge a bit faster then anyone else but this so called “advantage” doesn’t really compensate and we can’t stay in combat for too long or else we just simply die.

2. even if so… stealth isn’t as op as ppl claim .. especially with the revealt debuff.
once you got a DoT the enemy knows where you are
thief is even the only class that debuffs itself for nothing…
bs is only good from behind and besides that other classes have stronger skills which even require less skill to use.
on top of that if you use stealth you aren’t out of battle and some skills and pets are still targeting and hitting you.

3. fyi i’m useing d/p since that is the only good weapon choice in the current meta …
p/p is garbage sb is a joke ( only good for movement and for pve) …

DeceiverX.8361:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

This has been mentioned time and time again. Thief needs 15 (or 18) initiatives base, low Steal cooldown, and Staff without spec’ing DD. Those are only real reason why Trick and DD became mandatory in most cases.

18 init would be way too much baseline, for one, and Trickery will be effectively mandatory so long as ToTC, LA and BT are still used in one trait line with no similar or superior options to any of them in other lines.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Those are only real reason why Trick and DD became mandatory in most cases.

Wat.

You mean the third dodge, amazing cleanse potential on EA or huge additional damage, CV, effectively a second heal from DF, and either an effective immunity to immob/cripple/chill or easily-permanent stealth uptime were not good enough reasons not to take Daredevil?

The only reason to ever drop Daredevil aside from ghost thief is if core trait lines get massively buffed (unlikely), ANet absolutely gores it with aggressive HoT-content nerfs (even more unlikely) or ANet power creeps the next elite spec to the point the thief becomes actually overpowered (also fairly unlikely).

stopped at permanent stealth….
either you haven’t played thief at all or you are just a troll … there is no such thing as permanent stealth.
with d/p you can get a max of 3 stacks stealth (which are ~5s tops because of animation time and so on) after one attack you get a debuff (revealt) which makes you immune to your own stealth. revealt lasts 3s in pve and wvw and 4s in pvp.

oh and before you ask no there is also no perma dodge either.

thief requires the most ammount of playerskill to use. thats not what balance is…
all a thief can do is cap/decap a point and looking for a 2v1 or an enemy on max 50% health.

a thief should be more like an assassin… a 1v1 class … its kinda dumb to have a thief as useless leg man (english isn’t my 1st language dunno if thats the correct translation tho). everyone can win in a 2v1 or against an opponent with 50% health.

Eval.2371:

Eval.2371:

• We lack survivability to deal with aoe cleave. When we are in a big fight we resort to haphazardly dodging to avoid aoe cleave because if we don’t we melt to sheer amount of it.

• We lack the ability to indefinitely pressure targets that have an abundance of passive defenses or immunities. Stealth attack? block. Unload spam? invuln, Stack bleed & confusion? resistance.

• Trickery & DrD are mandatory. Because of the two above, we are reduced to spaming both our defensive and offensive mechanics. Be it aimless dodges in hope to avoid cleave, or unloads chained together because its our only good option, or stacking stealth endlessly until we have an opportunity to land a stealth attack. Not having trickery or DrD limits your ability to succeed in either category as you will run out of resources.

Until these three get fixed we wont have any semblance of weapon or build diversity. d/d, s/p s/d, p/d and p/p suck because thief it self falls short. Were unreliable gimmick at best in the current meta without d/p or daredevil.

yet ppl claim we can perm. dodge (which we can’t) and stealth is op even tho you have only one chance to land bs and after that you have to wait 3s(pve/wvw) and 4s (pvp) before you are able to enter stealth due the reveal you get…. yeah great idea let’s make thief immune to his own stealth x’D oh and as a side note there are tons of reveals out there as well and some skills are still locking onto any invisible thief.

on top of that bs is our strongest single hit attack but it needs way more skill to use then other skills from different classes which require less skill to use and deal more dmg.

all in all… a thief is atm only good for capturing points and 2v1 situations (which btw any class can win in a 2v1 situation)
1v1 is a different story… you have to be 200% better with your thief then your opponent is with his class in order to win… so thief requires a way higher skill level in order to be successfull then any other class.

i agree with you Eval… thief needs some changes …
a thief should be more of a 1v1 class …