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I use a build very similar to the above with identical gear and runes. My only tweak is I sometimes use roll for initiative instead of venom. I try to use as little stealth as possible and go for a swash-buckler type roamer. It took a lot of getting used to and I still have a hard time against the perma-stealth thf, but it is a pleasure to play.
I’m glad a few folks understood my intent. I may have understated a thief’s ability to roll in a zerg or even overlooked some other valuable roles. I am happy to see other’s opinions on the matter as they allow me to correct my original beliefs.
Of course thief is a pain in the kitten . I can sympathise (to an extent) the woes of players who get a knife in the back. I wanted to advocate for the practical applications of the pain in the kitten back stabber.
Sure I can use a rock to open a can of beans, but a can-opener is better suited to the task. Very constructive reply though.
woops. The point was contribute to the discussion is a positive manner. Don’t try and belittle my opinion. Show a little respect and offer your counter in a respectful manner.
[quote=2563314;Deniara Devious.3948:]
lol you kids are a joke.
Xsorass my exp in tpvp is minor when compared with my hundreds if not thousands of hours in wvw of my almost 3k hours played. I started the game with AA and am on black gate with most of the remaining players now but if there was one thing you would know its jack and kitten. lol
Johje are you saying that the reason some people don’t pvp is because some one kills them…. gotcha.
Go look at the threads about getting more people to play WvW. One commonly mentioned reason is thieves. Not because someone kills them, but specifically thieves, because thieves are annoying as kitten to fight. And everyone’s been blindsided by a thief at some point. And its simply not fun to fight them. That’s what I’m saying.
Personally, the only thing I do is WvW. I’ve been killed by thieves, forced them to retreat, and killed some. They’re not going to drive me away from WvW. But whether I win, lose or draw, it is not fun to fight them.
Which reminds me of a major role of the thief: Scouting.
Consider the fact that scouts (be they thief or any class), by virtue of their objective, do not benefit from the protection of a zerg or even a small organized group. Despite this, they can still effectively observe and evade. I’ll understand if this comes as little or no consolation to you since you seem to be fixated on the ability to kill another layer, but then again, there is more to WvW than the gratification of a small few (since those taking keeps, towers, etc typically benefit from the protection of numbers and are never in danger of a thief attack).
Ahh, So let me see if I can figure out what the OP is saying
That Thieves should be allowed to kill with impunity in WvW and get away Scott free because that is their specific role?
Can someone please point it out where Anet has said that Thieves are the only ones allowed to run around in WvW solo, Because its not like you can’t zerg just fine as a Thief (I do it all the time on mine)
True, you can zerg with a thief. I may have sounded too absolute in that “they have no other place” sentiment. Please allow the correction.
As far as killing with impunity goes, there is no class that can kill with impunity. I’ve been reversed by skilled players when I tried to gank them with thief. It happens. These instances are dependent on the individual skill level of the target player.
I think that perhaps you misunderstood my intent. The title “The Role of Thief in WvW” implies a topic which discusses the thief’s potential place in WvW. it didn’t say “The Trolly Thief” or “Why Thief is the Best Class” etc. I attempted (rather foolishly in hind sight) to invite a discussion for those who command zergs or play as a thief to discuss the potential applications of the class.
If your wish is to complain about how a thief once made a playscape out of your toon, then there are copious threads to that effect as I had earlier indicated.
Thief’s combat efficacy resides in 1v1. We can take that for what it is. I merely attempted to demonstrate the application of thief’s niche to the broakitten icture of WvW.
I’m still waiting for a rational answer to my question above regarding individual skill in a zerg because I’m confused. I’m struggling to see the individual contribution any class brings to the table vis a vis wvw. Collectively, you make one solid group. Individually, you have disadvatages. The reverse is true for thief. That’s all I’m saying.
I dont zerg so I wouldnt know. Only ever been in small roaming guilds.
Please view my reply as genuine. I am not attempting mockery or sarcasm here at all. Small roaming guilds sound like a cracking good time. Give me this much. Agree with me that roaming guilds are a small representation of the grander wvw population. If you can agree with that, then also consider that some thiefs attempt to do the same thing a small roaming group does just on an individual level.
Again, the theif community has a bad rep. I understand that. I also agree that there are players who roll thf solely so they can grief other players. I am asking the general community to understand that they have a role to play. You may not like that role because it involves deceptive and evasive strategies, but also consider the limitations that a thf has. Low hp, toughness, vit and virtually no group applications to speak of. You cannot expect a toe to toe fight given these limitations.
Thief’s combat efficacy resides in 1v1. We can take that for what it is. I merely attempted to demonstrate the application of thief’s niche to the broakitten icture of WvW.
I’m still waiting for a rational answer to my question above regarding individual skill in a zerg because I’m confused. I’m struggling to see the individual contribution any class brings to the table vis a vis wvw. Collectively, you make one solid group. Individually, you have disadvatages. The reverse is true for thief. That’s all I’m saying.
I should thank all of you for living up to my expecations. I never really expected a serious discussion. Part of me wanted to see how quick it would turn into a thief-hate thread. Looks like less than a half hour.
A point of curiousity though. When you are running with a spec group or zerg, aside from commanding the zerg, what actual skill does your role require? That’s sort of the discussion I was trying to generate. When you have 30-40 people with you all doing the same thing, you individual talent level is essentially non-detectable. If you aren’t with your crew and get killed, then you got killed. Deal with it. OR you can work on your individual skills and try to counter it. It is possible.
It’s not important though. Continue with your complaints. I recommend you get a few bunker guardians in here to lambast the boon stripping. I haven’t heard one of those in a while.
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I felt this appropriate for a thief thread.
I play S/D so this strategy doesn’t work for me.
This is intended (perhaps a futile effort) to explain to some folks what a thief does in WvW. There are a plethora of posts from the coutless victims of thief roamers who kitten and moan that they are trolls, that they have no application to the group, and that they are otherwise useless in WvW.
If you are one of these people, ask yourself a few questions:
1.) Where were you at the time of your death by thief?
2.) What was your objective at said time?
3.) Most importantly (perhaps should be question 1) what is your utility in WvW?
The reason I pose these questions is because people seem to think that thieves are useless and serve no purpose. Clearly, you do not understand the mechanics of WvW.
If the answer to question number 1 is “not with the zerg,” then you should expect to be targeted. I’m sorry, but when you are with the zerg, you are practically untouchable to theives. Anyone who claims they were plucked from the ranks by a thief, or that they did the plucking is either a straight-up liar or is embellishing the details. Now…when you aren’t benefitting from the protection of the zerg…you are swimming with sharks. This game is simulated warfare, and gurilla tactics are a part of that. That means harrassing stragglers, supply lines, and the zerg itself (see supply traps).
This brings us to question number 2. If you aren’t with the zerg when you get killed by a thief (and we can assume as much based on the untouchability mentioned above), then we can deduce that you are running to get to the zerg, esupplying at a camp, or you yourself are scouting and roaming. If you get killed by a thief whilst performing any of these tasks, then the thief assisted his servers war effort by imparing yours.
Question three is a little more abstract but is designed to view questions 1 and 2 more hollistically. It is designed to get your interpretation of WvW and where each class fits in. Thieves are not made for zerg-mechanics. They are built for knife-work. Hitting yaks, placing traps to hinder the zerg, disrupting “trickling-in” of reinforcements, and countering enemy scouts (this one’s important because no matter what server you are from, you have firendly thieves doing all these things).
In short, I posted this because although they may be annoying, thieves serve a tactical purpose in WvW. They use guerrilla tactics and as such are hard to beat with brute force. Evaluate your place in WvW. If it is serving some greater purpose with the main groups…then pray stay with the group. Roaming can be performed by any class, but unlike every other class, a thief has no other place in WvW, so don’t complain when they do the only job truly suited for them.
In any other game, being “downed” meant you were dead. In other words, you lost the fight. I’ve always advocated for stealthless builds which is what I run. Oddly enough, most people just lay there and do nothing when I down them. Perhaps they are automatically assuming that I’m a perma-stealth meta thief. It’s as if you feel you have no chance.
Change the title of the this thread to “Remove Downed State” or something a little more objective because this predictably turned into another thief thread.
S/P. Ok Im done.
I run off-set P/D.
Make that off-set S/D. Sorry for the typo.
What kind of build do you use? I use 0/30/0/25/15 for a fully evade-based build. I run off-set P/D. Aside from CnD and SR (if I trait it) I don’t use stealth. This took me a while to get used to. I dusted off my thf from 6 months ago and bi-passed D/P since I didn’t want any OP-guilt (of course now ppl credit my wins to ini and spamming…w/e).
Anyway, I still have trouble with certain classes, but guardian and warrior make for some really fun fights (I think for them too because they can see me).
I suppose to answer your question, you would have to elaborate on what weps the war was using. If he was GS, you just stick and move. S/P is’t the “meta” but it makes 100 blades a joke.
I believe this thread cork-screwed into another garden-variety hate the thf thread…that’s fine. I won’t deny there are advantages. I started a THF a long time ago and never used him. I eventually got tired of using 25% of my skills in a zerg and decided it would be fun to try the thf again. (S/P + S/D) Aside from C&D and occasional SR, I have no stealth. When I do use SR it is because, unlike those in a zerg, I have no protection. I use it to get to where I want to be. Now, there are some good players out there who you can tell either play thf or know how to counter them…and you can also tell people who never set foot out of the zerg. These are the people who continue to run…and subsequently die. Rolling with the zerg makes you impotent. Your skills of 1v1 atrophy and you have poorer odds of walking out alive. I know it’s cliche, but try your class in pvp. You pick up a lot of under-developed skills that help.
None of this may be relevant to the OP, but I see 5 pages of useless complaining. I agree D/P is the boilerplate build. I try to be a tad more sporting and forego stealth (thfs linchpin)…and then I get “boon strip is OP” etc. I’ve come to the conclusion that there is no pleasing some. BTW real slick putting this outside the thf forum…because I’ve never seen a thread as original in its content there.
I agree with those that are against punishing the large zergs, but I also would like something to be done about the one-sidedness often observed. I come from a wvw focused guild. We are very capable of handling superior numbers…but there is a limit. Anyone who posts here saying "My guild is able to beat 3x our numbers is either foolish, or they are leaving out key details such as terrain advantages, element of surprise, open field siege, etc. I’m not saying it is impossible, but there are circumstances that permit such a great victory. All I suggest is a slight aoe cap increase to the outmanned group. If my group of 30 is going against a 70 man, Give the 30 man an aoe cap of 7 or 8 instead of 5. Make it so our water fields are more sustainable to our group since…well…we have less. For aoe damage, it seems logical that a large cluster of bodies would make for higher casualties resulting from aoe. If a bomb goes off at the feet of 100 people standing nut-to-butt, more will get hurt than when they are spread out.
Overall, I don’t care either way. But that is a realistic mechanic that could help. BTW I’m not a spreadsheet guy so if someone runs an analysis and finds this to be a game-breaker, then fine I am wrong.
As to increasing the aoe cap, it wouldn’t work, increasing it to 10 would just mean that the 80man zerg can now kill the 20-30 man group twice as fast. 80 man groups should always be able to kill 20-30mans regardless of skills because at the end of the day people can claim to be super leet and be a zerg busting guild but few actually achieve this feet therefore the point isn’t very valid.
Which is why I’ve always felt that the outmanned buff should carry an increase to the cap with it. Nothing over the top, but if you are severely outnumbered, why shouldn’t the disadvantaged get an increase to the aoe cap. 10 sounds like it could be cataclysmic, but even 8 instead of 5. This would give outmanned defenders a little bit of an edge against those infamous 80 man blobs.
I can’t speak for everyone, but we at TC are stoked to be facing SOR and BG. I’m sorry if some of us disrespected your GvG. Keep in mind I have no context for this breach. I just wanted to offer that not all of us are like that.
I usually run S/D and S/P as a secondary set. The boon stripping from LS is a good set-up for S/P switch. I can usually freeze them with venoms position to the side or rear with FS then switch to S/P and use PW. I enjoy using combinations that aren’t as popular though. It is certainly more difficult than the boilerplate builds that are the norm, but running stealthless can be a lot of fun once you get the hang of it.
Personally, I run a stealthless sword build. Although this puts me at a disadvantage against most classes, I still find the challenge truly satisfying. What I CAN NOT appreciate is the reaction from the community when I run this way. If I use stealth, people complain. If I forgo stealth, I lose the majority of my condition removal (shucks since condi is the new flavor of the month). Oh and if I win a fight as a stealthless evade build, I get accused of “spamming” and thus am viewed as talentless by the loser.