Guild Wars 2

gf @ DR garrison. We held the fort against vastly superior numbers for an hour or so and had fun counterattacking all the way to Longview.

O.o How were you able to stay awake without coffee… No offense taken.

Ah, that is a good point about the res deterrence, now that I understand it. Eviscerate does a good job as well, since they can’t really dodge it, but 100b is more readily available and does the good cleave. I’ll give you this one.

Also, I do have experience running tournaments with an organized team as well, we’ve not done it in a while but I have done it with a good margin of success as a warrior. I just didn’t know what you were talking about ^^

Chaosbroker.3860:

Rakshael.4361:

GS is a burst weapon intended for single targets even though it CAN hypothetically hit more; no one ever really hits more than one person in PvP.

A) Given how the Forceful Greatsword trait works, more targets = faster might stacking so no … Greatsword is primarily an AoE focused weapon.
B) Hundred Blades is second only to a grenade engineer when “Downed-cleaving” an enemy team so again, AoE focused weapon.

Rakshael.4361:

*According to the wiki, where I looked because I double-checked this to make sure I was right, GS has zero vulnerability stacking skills. *The only way you’re getting vulnerability on it is through a specific trait, which would work on any other weapon, especially Axe’s fantastic, and faster, mainhand Auto.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Greatsword_Swing
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Greatsword_Slice
… would like a word. That’s the auto attack chain btw.

Also, comparing two weapons that are utilized in different manners and then saying “X is better cuz moar damage” is kind of hilariously narrow-minded. Axe is damage and nothing but damage so yes it’s sustained damage will be higher because that is all it brings.

A. I’m taking Warrior’s weapons as-is without traits. If you want to get into traits, then sure, we can, though this is incredibly off-topic. The point about GS’s Auto being HORRID still stands. No GS warrior with half a brain is EVER going to sit and just hack with #1. The goal of that might trait is specifically for 100b to gain extra damage. If you run with a coordinated team who is skilled enough to bunch people up for you, that’s fantastic. in 99% of the population’s experience, however, getting more than one person underneath your 100b is as rare as a precursor drop. Sure, it benefits from more targets, but then again, so do a lot of Axe skills. And Sword Skills. And Mace skills. And longbow skills. And… etc. Your point holds zero weight.

B. Second to another profession’s skill, based on what? Damage? Cleave when a group of enemies is downed? This is unclear to me, however, I will answer it as best I understand it: If you’re taking a weapon because it gets a group of already-downed enemies to die faster, you’re not taking a weapon for the right reason. The goal is to get them to that downed state, where just about any weapon (or heaven forbid stomping >.>) will work.

tl;dr, a few rare and relatively irrelevant scenarios, even if they supported you, do not an aoe weapon make. If I was one of you, I’d base my argument for GS aoe capabilities based on the #3 skill, not #2. Since you’re trying to justify it based on the highest damage output, though, it is somewhat indicative you live by 100b (kinda cheesy, and far more narrow-minded than anything you’ve accused me of).

GS does have the ability to do decent cleave damage, I will fully agree on that semantic. But it’s burst, not sustain, and aoe is not the focus of the weapon.

As for the Auto, you are correct, I was misled by a confusing article on the wiki. However, despite this incorrect statement on my part, there is absolutely no way the Greatsword stacks more vulnerability than Axe. Axe crits just as much, if not more since you’re using the Auto, and #2 provides a stack. As far as vulnerability stacking goes, Axe will never lose to the greatsword.

Dand.8231:

Doing #2 Axe for vul, followed by 1 for DPS, is lower than GS doing the same, #1 for vul, and #2 for DPS.

Only Axe #5 hits more than 3 targets to my knowledge, up to 5. And the times you’ll hit 5 enemies consistently are few are far between.

I agree. Giving vulnerable is never a waste of time. And thats why GS is better. It brings vulnerable on its auto instead of a button, and has more personal DPS.

So you’re comparing Axe Auto, which is fantastic, with GS Auto, which is horrible, and Axe #2, which is meant to be used to hit multiple opponents and increase the damage of your auto and allies, with GS #2, which is high burst dps. Anyone else see the lack of logic here? They’re utterly different, and made for diametrically separate purposes. GS is a burst weapon intended for single targets even though it CAN hypothetically hit more; no one ever really hits more than one person in PvP. Axe is aoe dmg in EVERY gametype, even though it’s likewise useful 1v1, and one constantly hits more than one person with its very quick cast time. GS has higher damage output, yeah, but it has absolutely nothing to do with Axe, and certainly not with Offhand Axe, the topic being discussed here.

That’s my point. It doesn’t do enough damage to even warrant taking it as an offhand for PvE, where everything is technically viable.

According to the wiki, where I looked because I double-checked this to make sure I was right, GS has zero vulnerability stacking skills. The only way you’re getting vulnerability on it is through a specific trait, which would work on any other weapon, especially Axe’s fantastic, and faster, mainhand Auto. I know because I use it. In fact, using that trait with Axe stacks MORE vulnerability for even MORE great damage that isn’t reliant on a rooted skill to kill anything.

I don’t mean to condescend or be offensive, Dand, but I don’t think you understand the concept of Warrior Axe. It’s not about straight numbers. Greatsword is a fine weapon to use, and if 100b is what you live, swear, and die by, that’s fine, burst all of those guys down in WvW. Just don’t come in and derail the thread because you don’t prefer it to your zerker build, please.

Actually Dand if you use #2 before you start your Axe Auto, you’ll do a few %‘s more DPS, which pays off over time and even more so if you have an ally hitting the enemy as well. Obviously, this skill becomes more and more useful as the amount of enemies grows, since Axes are the aoe melee damage weapons. It’s certainly not lousy if used properly.

One option would be to replace #5 entirely with a new skill. I have an idea:

Reckless Charge: While spinning weapons in a circle around him, the Warrior bursts forward toward a target, ignoring the effects of stuns, cripples, chills, immobilizes, and knockback for the duration (does not remove previously applied conditions). Projectiles are reflected, and the skill is a Whirl Finisher. Will not break previously applied Immobilize or CC. If the Warrior collides with the target, gain Fury for 5 seconds (OR Gain 5 strikes of Adrenaline). If the skill misses, gain Weakness for 5 seconds (OR Lose 5 strikes of Adrenaline).

Duration: 2 1/2 seconds
Cast time: 1/4 seconds
Range: 1000
Damage: 1,200 (x10 over duration) (I’m not a mathematician, these damage numbers are probably terrible, but they’re placeholders to give an idea of how the skill should work)
Cooldown: 30 seconds

Animation: Whirling Axe, slanted forward a bit, rushing forward in a line similar in speed to Rush.

Obviously, the risk-reward portion could be changed, or other ideas implemented. But we do not have to remain cemented into a slight alteration to #5 (or #4, for that matter) for a fix.

I do think, Dempsey, that other weapons were intended to be more focused on single-target dps, such as GS and dual swords. It’s quite obvious axes were intended to be the more high-sustain cleave damage weapons. Until CC warriors stop getting all the attention, however, we’re stuck with offhand Mace or Shield instead of Axe. When 3/5 skills are cleave or aoe-based, you can’t redesign the weapon without destroying its purpose.

Sword, I find, is useful as a secondary for Savage Leap’s mobility and whatever utility you throw in offhand. Otherwise, it’s not a weapon I have equipped for fights very often.

For Mainhand Axe, I do agree that Anet is in a bit of a bind when it comes to the Auto. They want it to remain high-damage and quick, but they also don’t want the last hit to be completely ignored because it’s useless. Perhaps a conversion to yet another 3-hit cycle is in order. 3+ seconds is too long to do all your DPS on such a fast crit/power based weapon.

Offhand Axe does not have to become easy mode, but neither should it remain noob fodder. The problem is that the weapon brings nothing to the table that makes it desirable over other options. I’d advise against a root/reflect, similar to Ranger’s, because unlike Ranger, Warrior’s Axes are melee, and a root would make the weapon dysfunctional with the forward offensive mentality the skills provide.

The skill should still give aoe damage, but needs an increase in the actual damage or a defensive boon such as reflect or damage mitigation to make it desirable.

Lately I’ve been having quite similar thoughts in regard to some of warrior’s offhand choices and versatility. I am a warrior who highly favors power/crit builds as opposed to the widespread CC hammer/mace wars out there, or the sword and Lbow condition users. Thus, I have difficulty selecting weapons, as I have found Greatsword to be lacking in versatility and usefulness when not running a build focused upon assassination and landing successful 100b’s. I’m far more of a brawler who ups the dps as high as I can take it while remaining respectably survivable. While not really a pro by anyone’s standards, I have a good amount of experience playing warrior, and mained the class through every meta since I started playing the game. Warrior Offhand Axe is a weapon I believe to be in serious need of some rework. Mainhand Axe, in my humble opinion, is a masterful bursting weapon that is in good balanced state, including the Auto-Attack; it does not require tweaking at all. Without further ado:

Dual Strike: This skill is a higher-damage attack that grants fury based on the amount of strikes that connect. It does quite useful damage, gives you a boon, and cleaves. If I had to make a suggestion, it would be that a different boon be granted, perhaps a stack of Might for each foe/strike. Otherwise, it’s a good skill.

Whirling Axe: This brings us to the reason usually cited for why no one seriously brings axe along offhand. It is a long Whirl Finisher, does mediocre damage, and allows you to remain quite mobile while attacking 360 degrees around you. While this can definitely be situationally useful, it is neither versatile nor synergistic enough to warrant its use. The only skill the Warrior can use alone with this is obtained via the Lbow, a weapon that does not work well with what Axe has to offer.

The problems persist, in that the Auto-Attack usually does more damage per second than this skill does, especially in the high-crit builds typical of Axe users. While there is no issue with a skill doing less DPS than the Auto, it brings no advantage over using different skills other than the Whirl Finisher. Additionally, one is almost without exception forced to use an evade when the opponent does as well, since the vast majority of enemies will dodge away from the visually impressive skill, if not simply resorting to CC or setting up their counter-attack underneath your reduced DPS.

While it can be argued that the Offhand Axe is not meant to be used for those engaging in solo or small group play, I would ask, then, why it is equally useless for aoe damage. If one is to be engaging in a large fight, say a 5v5 or a zerg clash, one wishes to do the most amount of damage with the least amount of risk possible. I need not go into the Warrior’s superior alternatives. The weapon is a poor choice indeed to bring to the table. It possesses no inherent defensive measures and makes the caster a more visible target. While a better Whirl Finisher can scarce be found, a Warrior has far better and safer tools at his disposal. I would propose several alterations or buffs to Whirling Axe. Along with all of these suggestions, I submit that the base damage be increased. While other buffs may increase the attractiveness of the skill it will never be seen as quite viable until it meets or possibly exceeds the Auto’s DPS. It doesn’t need to be anything like a mobile Hundred Blades, but it needs to be doing more than the few thousand damage typically seen. A longer cooldown might be in order with some of the following suggestions.

- The first idea that comes to mind is, of course, to make the skill Reflect Projectiles or at least Block them. This is taken rather blatantly from the Ranger’s #5 Axe skill of similar nature, and makes sense, considering the nature of the animation. Coincidentally this is one of the better ideas, as it gives the skill some defensive purpose, blends well with the animation, and allows the primarily close-ranged Axe Warrior a way to combat kiting enemies.

- The second is to give the skill applied Stability for the duration, possibly switched or coupled with Protection, given the difficulty of striking a foe who is spinning sharpened metal so furiously between himself and assailants. This allows for the Axe Warrior to maintain momentum during battle and give himself a defensive bridge between bursts, providing the much-needed survivability he needs against both close and long-ranged foes.

- Lowering condition duration for the duration of the skill. Another defensive measure, this would allow Warriors, typically shut down through application of chills and cripples, to press the assault and bring the pain.

The main philosophy behind most of these is damage mitigation or some sort of defensive measure, that when taken with the increased damage, makes going into a highly visible and vulnerable target worthwhile, and allows the Warrior more versatility for its viable offhand weaponsets.

Varyag.3751:

9. Signet of Stamina should have passive condition removal tick each ten seconds, when active should restore one bar of endurance.

Don’t fix what isn’t broken. This is one of the few very good warrior skills, and if anything needs to refill endurance faster, should it need a change to begin with. No one would ever activate a signet to restore one bar of endurance, either.

Focus on where the issues are: Lack of sufficient DPS sources and survivability to make up for the warrior’s lack of any significant gimmick (stealth, clones, pets, etc).

Please move this back into the sPvP forum. This is not a rage or whine-filled thread, and most of the suggestions in the spreadsheet are genuinely well thought-out. This hasn’t been made with the viewpoint of “CHANGE ALL OF THESE NAOW” but rather with the mindset of suggestions and ways to make many, if not most, warrior traits and weapons viable.