Guild Wars 2

Uki.4725:

I’m sorry, but if your argument against mounts equates to nothing more than “This is GW2 not (insert MMORPG here)…” or “Devs/players don’t want GW2 to be like every other MMORPG” then your argument is invalid.

Let’s look at these simple facts for all of the “innovation” and “difference”: 1.) The experience and advancement system (kill stuff, do quests, get experience, gain a level, get new abilities) is based on a game that’s 40 years old (Dungeons & Dragons). About the only thing they did was add to that base (e.g., crafting xp, exploration xp, etc.). 2.) Magic-using classes wear cloth armor (as in most every other MMORPG out there) while Rogue-y/Ranger-y classes wear leather armor, and warrior/paladin classes wear heavy armor. 3.) The idea of classes themselves (again, looking back 40 years or so)! 4.) The gathering system (Hmmm… have I seen gather plants and mine ores somewhere before?). 5.) The crafting system (Oh, look: Armorer, Weaponsmith, Leatherworker, blah blah blah) which I’ve seen in multiple other MMORPGs before GW2.

I could go on, but I think it’s kind of pointless. The fact is that claiming “don’t wanna be like everybody else” as a reason for not doing something pretty much falls apart when everything else you’re doing is just like everybody else!

That aside, I think mounts would be a brilliant addition to the game as it already has the code to change skills based on weapons you use, tools you interact with in game (arrow carts, trebuchets, etc.), and even forms you take for various hearts and whatnot. Use something similar for riding a mount. A few skill replaces and you’ve introduced a whole new level of combat/play into a game that’s already primed for such a thing.

Yeah but the actual reason we don’t have mounts, and I’m sure this has been brought up already, is that ANet wants us to use waypoints which act as the game’s biggest gold sink.

Not only does season 2 evolve from season 1 but there is also a lot of references to GW1 as well. If you haven’t played GW1 and are really interested in the lore of the world this guy narrates some pretty good videos about what you need to know from GW1.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL00553A085339802C

kuben.9826:

You can obtain EVERY single item via gold. its not having overpowerd eq like in f2ps, but you still have advantage if You earn a lot IRL. If You earn a lot IRL you’re a boss IRL. Same with games. why RL money should make You a boss in a game? Does game currency make You a boss IRL?
P.S. I work, study and still have time to play enough and dont spend RL money on game

Except for the items you can’t get through gold such as ascended crafting mats, items bought with skill points, items bought with karma, items bought with fractal tokens, items bought with wvw badges, etc. etc. So really the people that have the time to farm this stuff for end game items without spending money are at the advantage here IF we were to assume there is a “winning” which there isn’t.

1. I get jealous of other rangers’ creative names for their pets, wait until they are gone, and then change my pets’ names

2. I swore when I bought the game on pre-order I would never buy gems. I broke that promise last week

3. I prefer Logan to any other member of Destiny’s Edge and don’t think he deserves the kitten he gets. >.>

4. I occasionally throw in a swear on the forums just to see it change to kitten.

5. kitten.

Hey John thanks for putting up with us.

With the introduction of Dry Top came the new llama NPCs. How do you feel about the design choice of going with llamas and not alpacas despite alpacas being definitively more awesome?

Even though your idea prevents them from being sold they are precursors that are now no longer being bought on the TP so it would have the same results.

While I don’t find this change to be necessary I find it interesting enough to entertain discussion.

Do you think this will have a large enough impact on people who mainly focus on long term investment/speculation? While this works for people who flip large amounts of items on a daily/weekly basis what about people who only place large orders once in a while for long term storage such as skins, LS items, items that will be effect upcoming game changes etc? Or do you feel that these people do not make enough gold to be considered significant?

Also how do you feel about the reduced buy orders leading to reduced competition and prices? Effects may vary based on item but some items may significantly decrease in value without the massive buy orders of flippers and so regular players get less for selling their unwanted items. Or do you think this will, in general, have an insignificant impact on item prices?

HHR LostProphet.4801:

I wrote this thread because traiding post flipping is unfair, because it breaks the normal time-spent/reward pattern.

I can make 3-4 gold in about 45 minutes doing dungeon running. To prove your claim about flipping granting more money in less time I challenge you to make 3 -4 gold only using the TP in the same amount of time. You must do this immediately, any research or TP browsing is considered part of your time. You cannot just empty your bank or collections tab. You can only use the gold you have and the TP. If you can make 3-4 gold in 45 minutes then we can continue this conversation.

The point is NO flipping and playing the TP is not easy or fast or cheap.

HHR LostProphet.4801:

So all in all I have no problem with the little guy making some more income. But I do have a problem with people making the most gold in this game by purely flipping the traiding post. And keep in mind what a suggestions is: A suggestion, ergo not final. If you have a better idea of how to stop the richest of the rich, then say it.

Here is your problem. Why do we need stop the richest of the rich? If we come up with a magical solution to stop TP Barons from making so much gold than we just get a new activity that makes people the richest of the rich. Say arbitrarily that dungeon running is the new best way to make gold and that’s playing the game right? Well a lot of people find this tedious and boring to speed run every day and then they will complain that this has to change. So do you think its unfair that TP Barons make the most money or do you think its unfair that you don’t get to be the richest by doing what you like to do?

Glad I came back from a break to find nothing has changed

Aidan Savage.2078:

Schizo.1375:

You know I never really noticed these kinds of threads before but this past week I’ve seen at least three of them. Does this ever actually work?

I’d say yes, but that would be including threads like this which are poor attempts. So I’ll say “maybe” instead and point out websites that “recommend” what to flip for profit.

Yeah I know what you are talking about.

You know I never really noticed these kinds of threads before but this past week I’ve seen at least three of them. Does this ever actually work?

LordByron.8369:

Its also clear they don’t address lack of supply.

The number of unidentified dies required for Gift of Color is being reduced to 100.

LordByron.8369:

Knowing that everyone with a decent amount of gold (or friends) is able to manipulate the supply….

Also if you think markets can be manipulated with a bunch of gold then you definitely aren’t a better economist than John.

I think we are getting to caught up on the word “proof”. We aren’t looking for data, we are looking for a line of logic that shows the current situation has a problem. JS quoted a good example of what he is looking for.

LordByron.8369:

mtpelion.4562:

LordByron.8369:

I think is more you didn t read…

http://www.gw2spidy.com/item/19748
http://www.gw2spidy.com/item/19745
http://www.gw2spidy.com/item/19729
http://www.gw2spidy.com/item/19743
http://www.gw2spidy.com/item/19700

http://www.gw2spidy.com/item/29181

Supply and Demand
Supply and Demand
Supply and Demand
Supply and Demand
Supply and Demand

Supply and Demand

None of those links support your argument. Did you link the wrong things?

Tell me….
If this is a player economy….

How comes a DEVS increase out of a reasonable level the demand putting a 3X requirement on a good to actually CHANGE demand.

But refuse to do anything for lack of supplies?

I’ll tell you… because this is not a player driven economy….and also because he is not able or don t want to balance the economy.

But for sure that explains the GAME economy is extremely poorly managed…

When you have the power to change the demand and you use it at will you can t say a broken supply/demand is player driven.

P.S. solution…sncreasing taxes on buy and sales order similar to diminishing returns in PvE…
The more you sell/buy in the short period the higher the taxes..

Of course Anet has control of the economy. But this isn’t inherently bad. In fact your example shows how they use it balance the economy, not unbalance it. Before silk was worthless, now it has value.

As much as I love satire do we really need more angry discussions?

munkiman.3068:

They’ve only shown to be misunderstood, either by my poor explanation of them or poor reading comprehension. My suggestion only limits the function of flippers to flip product and only negatively affects the accidental purchases of items you could immediately resell. Nothing more than that. As for workarounds via another account, well anything a player does to workaround the designed limits of the game are usually bannable offenses.

I’m glad we are resorting to personal attacks now. You have only ever tried to defend your argument when someone points out what is wrong with it. You have never until now claimed that people misinterpreted something. I have gone back through your older posts and have found no such suggestion but perhaps my reading comprehension is off.

Also I’m not sure what the last line is in context too but I don’t think Anet would ban people for shelling out money for a second account.

munkiman.3068:

I can certainly be wrong, but then again the counterpoints can just as well be also.

This is just an attempt at a scorched earth where if you can’t win you attempt to nullify the opponent’s argument without a real counter argument. Your right, despite all the reasons I could come up with to show why it’s not plausible I probably couldn’t definitively prove that Santa isn’t real.

munkiman.3068:

Schizo.1375:

TooBz.3065:

Wanze.8410:

munkiman.3068:

Could you imagine? DR on the TP, after 20 minutes of trading your profit gets cut in half? How about RNG, you still pay your gold, but you may or might not get or item. Perhaps a porous bone instead :P

OK, start by telling me your formula of how you measure profit on the tp.

Sale price * .85 – buy price?

edit: FYI, he wasn’t serious. He was just applying the money making restrictions on the rest of the game to the TP.

Doubtful since his previous suggestions have been very similar in ridiculousness.

Also what if I don’t buy the item? What if I just go around farming routes to sell?

I was being silly. Just because you didn’t understand the suggestions doesn’t make them ridiculous.

Your right I don’t understand how any of the suggestions given here would work because they have been shown to be unworkable each and every time.

Edit: We also still haven’t identified a problem so we shouldn’t be discussing solutions.

TooBz.3065:

Wanze.8410:

munkiman.3068:

Could you imagine? DR on the TP, after 20 minutes of trading your profit gets cut in half? How about RNG, you still pay your gold, but you may or might not get or item. Perhaps a porous bone instead :P

OK, start by telling me your formula of how you measure profit on the tp.

Sale price * .85 – buy price?

edit: FYI, he wasn’t serious. He was just applying the money making restrictions on the rest of the game to the TP.

Doubtful since his previous suggestions have been very similar in ridiculousness.

Also what if I don’t buy the item? What if I just go around farming routes to sell?

LordByron.8369:

Fenrir.3609:

And yet you are utterly unable to demonstrate that the economy is unfair, unbalanced or poorly managed.

I think is more you didn t read…

http://www.gw2spidy.com/item/19748
http://www.gw2spidy.com/item/19745
http://www.gw2spidy.com/item/19729
http://www.gw2spidy.com/item/19743
http://www.gw2spidy.com/item/19700

http://www.gw2spidy.com/item/29181

Okay but WHY does this mean the economy is unbalanced? And don’t say because the lower tier items are more valuable than the upper tier because it doesn’t matter.

munkiman.3068:

Schizo.1375:

Then where are precursors coming from? Just because you did not get one yet doesn’t mean other’s haven’t been lucky or put more dedication towards getting one.

Look at it this way. How many of those precursors are being crafted into legendaries and sold for even more profit by TPbarons? How many of them are simply being exchanged for wealth by TP barons? Buy low, because players either want instant cash or can’t afford the high listing fee or simply don’t care about crafting a legendary, then sell it high to some min/max farmer or another TP baron that decided he wanted to craft a legendary. Just because JS can show that unique buyers are buying them, doesn’t show anything about what is being done with them. We aren’t talking about high volume items here.

And i have gotten a precursor (Tooth of Frostfang), so there’s that. I’m giving mine away in a contest, mostly since i think the economy is jacked up. I have pretty much all i need to craft it though. I’m not advocating a change because i feel cheated or can’t attain a legendary, but i’ve already stated i’m not your average player and that i pour a good chunk of my disposable income into the game. I’m advocating a change because i think it could be better and that far too many people (including JS) use RW examples to make statements about a video game economy to prove some obtuse point. I’m not saying JS is a bad economist or that he’s lying, i have no proof of either. I just think there are flaws that could be improved and it’s worth looking into.

JS and others on the economy team have been working at least 40 hours a week for nearly two years. I think it’s being looked into.

munkiman.3068:

The argument is the the average player has control over the costs of “luxury goods”, that they dictate the market, which is false, even based on the basic data we do have.
The average player is not getting precursors as drops and selling them at high prices (most likely more are selling to the lower buy order, if anything).

Then where are precursors coming from? Just because you did not get one yet doesn’t mean other’s haven’t been lucky or put more dedication towards getting one.

munkiman.3068:

Nor is your average player buying them up. I’m saying your average player is playing the game and is indeed being impacted by not only high end items, but all items in the economy as it inflates. That and the TP “problems” have a lot to do with it. JS says no, but provides no data as to why that’s not the case. If TP barons can take advantage of the average player who’s not well informed, partially do to the interface of the TP, partially due to other game related factors like drop rates and earning potential outside the market and minimally due to just not being saavy, there is a problem.

There is too much supply being thrown onto the market at any given time for 1% of the playerbase to possibly affect the prices. This is has been shown, with data, with high end luxury items. Given that this is true there is no way the wealthiest players could possibly raise prices of crafting materials or markets where there is vastly more velocity.

And no one is being taken advantage of. When selling on the marketplace the player is clearly presented with all options. Sell at a lower price for instant gratification, or list it for a higher price and wait a bit and possibly be undercut. Same for buying. These people are presented with their options and making a conscious choice.

munkiman.3068:

You can see from the gem exchange that things could be improved, simply based on the fact that more gold is being pumped into the system then cash. If 500 TP Barons toss thousands of gold at gems, it does slowly move that market out of reach for the average player that is not spending cash. Which is not only bad for ANet, it’s bad for the players. I have no data to back up that’s any substantial thing that’s happening though, but if the wealthy top 1% TP Baron is tossing off the gem exchange, there is a problem.

I recommend taking a look at tolunart’s post. Its a good read and I learned a few things.

munkiman.3068:

Mostly, your average player, doesn’t max/min their earning potential, and most likely can’t even afford the listing fee for say Dusk at the high sell price (especially if your an average player is trying to make BiS gear), there is a problem.

Then how are there so many Dusks? Either people are buying them or getting lucky on a drop. And if you want BiS then buy exotics. Ascended an legendaries aren’t necessary since build and skill are more determinant factors then the tiny stat increase. These are just long terms goals to keep people playing.

munkiman.3068:

Inflation really isn’t a problem, so much as wealth disparity is, it seems to me.

No line of logic that wealth disparity hurts your game play.

munkiman.3068:

Wanze.8410:

munkiman.3068:

For example, my wife got a lucky roll in the mystic toilet and i supplemented a bunch for her legendary. If nether of those happened, she’d still be scrimping and saving to buy a pre by doing all world bosses, some dungeons and the orr temple runs almost daily for mats and gold. She’d still be months away from being able to afford it and shes played since launch. 2 years is far too long for what i would consider an above average player.

All of which could be substituted for a few month of conservative trading on the TP. If you think that’s good for the game, the players or the economy, you’re outta your mind.

Well, apparantly, she got a drop from the MF, so whats your point?

That’s all you took out of what i said?

You have the data that would indicate it’s not your “average” player that’s moving precursors around. You also have the data that people aren’t buy gold with cash moreso than the inverse. Yet the thought is somehow still that the opposite is true. The point being the balance isn’t there and that there is a problem that could be improved, not only for ANet, but also the players.

We have data that NO ONE is moving precursors around. Also your data about gems shows the price of gold per gem rising and thats all it shows. Its certainly implied that more people are buying gems with gold causing the price to rise, probably because of recent sales. But it does NOT show how many people are buying gems with cash, we cannot determine this. But if anything its certainly looking better for people to buy gems to sell for gold.

Proof has already been given that legendaries and precursors aren’t controlled by the wealthy. So if one of the slowest markets can’t/aren’t being manipulated, what markets are you suggesting are?

All trading should be done through the TP. Its safe and its fair. Trading by mail is not encouraged and Anet will not do anything if you get scammed.

Gene Archer.8560:

someone who struggles and puts a lot of effort into dungeons, because they aren’t good at dungeons.

This might be a problem if dungeons or other PvE events were done solo but even if they aren’t good they can still be carried by the group regardless of the individual’s effort.

You’re the only one that acknowledged my suggestions, so I want your opinion, Shizo. Ignore the whole “TP is evil” or whatever. Just taking into consideration that people want to reach the stuff they like in a timely manner so they can enjoy it, whether that be amassing gold, or getting skins or items. Do you see any problems with my suggestion? (The real suggestion, the one I worked on that you were trying to help knock out the kinks of)

I have no problem with your suggestion of increasing the value of other currencies or PvE reward tracks (assuming it doesn’t significantly affect Anet’s profits on gem conversions). Especially reward tracks because that is based more on individual effort than group effort. But in the end I wonder if this is the game for someone if their goal is the coolest stuff in a timely manner. Not that there is anything wrong with that but there are much better options of MMO if that is your goal.

laokoko.7403:

John Smith.4610:

Essence Snow.3194:

John Smith.4610:

Essence Snow.3194:

That’ll I can agree with. If we ever get access to some hard data, we’ll be in a much better place to say the least.

Please explain to me what your process would be for proving your theories if you had the data.

Start by seeing if there was a wealth gap, how large if present, and if it was growing. Then I could go from there.

This does not answer my question. Feel free to make assumptions as you go, fork the ideas as if drawing a decision tree. This is how I would recommend beginning the analysis with or without data.

My theory is many players dont’ like the GW2 economy and TP.

And I prove it by seeing many people complaining on the GW2 forum.

The reality is people aren’t complaining in other mmorpg(with some exception which I shouldn’t list because I dont’ want to promote other games), they only complain in GW2.

You know what else people don’t like? Prostate exams and TSA checks at the airport.

Essence Snow.3194:

John Smith.4610:

Essence Snow.3194:

John Smith.4610:

Essence Snow.3194:

That’ll I can agree with. If we ever get access to some hard data, we’ll be in a much better place to say the least.

Please explain to me what your process would be for proving your theories if you had the data.

Start by seeing if there was a wealth gap, how large if present, and if it was growing. Then I could go from there.

This does not answer my question. Feel free to make assumptions as you go, fork the ideas as if drawing a decision tree. This is how I would recommend beginning the analysis with or without data.

Would you mind if I msg’d you about the matter?

You can if you want but it makes me worry that you don’t want to post it for critique.

munkiman.3068:

If i know i can easily afford to buy everything i need to make myself a killing selling a legendary, would you even remotely think i’d be worried that the average player is paying a much higher amount of their earnings to do the same? Also realize, the pre is a large part of the cost as well as what we have 0 control over, things like clovers and icy runestones. Would a pre be that much gold if there weren’t regular buyers/traders of it?

I think you need to view the post that Wanze made a couple pages back. It has data that shows there aren’t wealthy people that are trading in legendaries to make a killing. Or precursors.

Edit: Here https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/bltc/Increasing-trading-post-tax/3881379

Essence Snow.3194:

John Smith.4610:

Essence Snow.3194:

That’ll I can agree with. If we ever get access to some hard data, we’ll be in a much better place to say the least.

Please explain to me what your process would be for proving your theories if you had the data.

Start by seeing if there was a wealth gap, how large if present, and if it was growing. Then I could go from there.

We need to know why we are looking for a wealth gap. What is it’s significance?

munkiman.3068:

Do you honestly believe that there would even be one for sale for 2000 gold (or even 1000g) if there weren’t people with enough earning potential to pay that price in a reasonable amount of time?

I do think so considering the amount of materials that go into crafting it and how much those materials cost. Have you seen the breakdown of one of those things?
http://www.bravevesperia.com/

Gene Archer.8560:

The argument I’ve been making is that equivalent effort should result in equivalent reward. That’s all I’ve been saying. That’s all I’ve said this entire time. That if you do equivalent work and equivalent effort, you should get equivalent reward, because that’s what fairness is.

I don’t think anyone is arguing this. What is being argued is that there is no way the usual PvE grinds are nearly the same amount of effort required. I could do jumping puzzles, champ trains, and dungeon runs as a bearbow ranger (I use this an example as it is considered to be the most despised and useless class/build, and I have done this) pressing buttons 1 through 5 with ease and great success. If I were to apply the same amount of effort (not even including skills and/or brains which are most definitely factors) that it takes to to this, I would only be making a few silver in about the same amount of time. In order to make the significant amount of profit that others are complaining about it takes much more effort. And again, PvE is nearly completely safe. Armor repair costs are going out and getting kicked out of a dungeon does not mean you lose that 1-2g since you never gave up that amount before starting, you never had it to begin with. You do not lose money like you can on the TP, worst case scenario you only lose 10-15 minutes of opportunity cost where as on the TP you have a chance of losing both depending on how much profit you are expecting. Could be similar to a getting kicked out of a dungeon near the end, could be 100’s of gold and 6 months of opportunity cost.

Gene Archer.8560:

Yes it does, though. Effort is just a serious attempt at doing something. So if you say “Effort needs to be applied”, then what you’re looking at is “Did they put in a serious attempt at their goal?”

So the student who studied medicine to become an RN should receive the same pay as someone who studied medicine to become a doctor?

Aidan Savage.2078:

That being said, can someone remind me what the problem this thread is attempting to resolve again?

The current quest is to show that there is a problem with the distribution of wealth.

Gene Archer.8560:

This was already done by Smooth. He said that the effort he put in was the result of some thinking, a few mouse clicks, and number pressing

I imagine it was the same for you.

I think he was being facetious and reducing his effort to such low proportions for dramatic effect and show the ridiculousness of the argument some people are making that there is little effort in the TP.

But I could be wrong.

As for me, yes, mostly what I do is click a few buttons and look at some charts in the morning, do some buying, do some selling, do some crafting. Little effort in my part and I gain a couple extra gold every day. I’ve become busy lately and haven’t had a lot of time to do some research and thinking about how to expand the amount of gold I make per day. So as of right now I’m sure there are plenty of PvE farmers who make more gold than I do a day so maybe I’m not the best example. However that is not so say little effort was put in. It took me a lot of time and gold (as initial investment and the cost of experimentation) to figure out what items are popular but aren’t be supplied enough, how much can I buy with the amount of gold I currently have, what’s the best way to get these items out of all the sources listed, how many can I sell during the night, is the profit margin large enough to justify doing this, are there better items to focus on, etc. etc.

And despite all of this it still took a long time of this sort of research and experimentation before I even started making money and recouping my initial investments.

Gene Archer.8560:

If you want to then say that you did extra work by doing research outside the game, I will note that people aside from flippers also do research outside of the game. Which puts us back at square one and equivalence.

Just because the same acts are undertaken doesn’t mean it is the same effort. It takes 15-20 minutes to read the wiki on a particular dungeon path, champ train path, or farming path and understand the gist of what the general meta is in the forums for your profession.

If you can tell me what sigils or runes I should buy to make money in 15-20 minutes then we can say it’s equivalent. Or if you can tell me what are some items with a 15%-20% return for weekday to weekend flipping in 15-20 minutes then we can say it’s equivalent.

Gene Archer.8560:

You aren’t always rewarded in dungeons runs or the like, either. Sometimes you are penalized.

The penalties are either a few silver for armor repairs (edit: which I just remembered are gone in a few days), or lost time if someone leaves or you get kicked. But you would never loose out on the 1-2g you get for completing the path. When playing with investments, the bigger your potential reward, the bigger your chances of losing money, and losing A LOT of money. The only time you would lose out a few silver here and there in the TP is by expecting less than a 1g profit.

My thoughts on equivalent effort for equivalent reward. If you can show that doing speed runs of dungeons or champ trains or any other mindless activities for getting gold in PvE is equal to the amount of effort that is used to determine which sigils I should buy for the new patch to make a profit, then we can talk. Also you aren’t always rewarded in the TP, sometimes you are penalized, severely.

munkiman.3068:

Take the TP out of the game and see how quickly things balance out…

Please do this JS, just for a limited time so people can see just how aweful of an idea it is and soon people will see just how great the TP works.

munkiman.3068:

The problem specifically is, (and it’s been said at least a dozen times) is that the currently unregulated TP allows a player (without much skill mind you) to earn a fairly large pool of gold in a fairly short period of time. That it is completely out of whack from any other way of earning gold in any other avenue of the game (while you sleep even!). No matter how you slice it, it’s an exploit that needs to be fixed.

If it’s not clear as to why that’s a problem, i have no idea how to tell anyone more plainly then the basic fact that if even 1% of the population can afford to outright buy a legendary in a fairly short period of time, that’s a pretty unfair advantage over the other 99%.

The only saving grace to all this is that you can convert gems to gold, but even then, 500-600 bucks is a pretty steep price for a virtual item.

I’ve bolded the parts where you are wrong and need to reconsider. It is not easy and although it is relatively quick in game time, there are hours of out of game time research that has to take place. So no not quickly.

LordByron.8369:

John Smith.4610:

2. I know you said it already, but I’ll restate, that prices of high end goods aren’t being controlled.

Are you an economist or a politician?
Not controlled? maybe
Try to say they are not manipulated……

3. The prices of high end goods are VERY close, if not exactly the same, to what they would be without any “TP Barons” wanting those items. There’s too much velocity for individual rich people to influence the supply/demand equation all that much, which is the only control they have if they aren’t manipulating prices.

And this is where you are speculating without any proof.
As Always with a dash of retoric….

1) sigil of generosity…..
2) TP guilds
3) sum of tp barons

A single announcement can make items spike of 1000%…..and its not personal use.

I find quite unpleasant how you try to manipulate words…..this is not communication nor transparency.

Please see Wanze’s post above about the velocity of Legendaries.

Svarty.8019:

John Smith.4610:

Flippers increase liquidity and bring prices closer to equilibrium, almost always lowering prices and providing preferences to other players. I see no reason why anyone would want to stop that.

I do. When I see the price of petrol (gas) and other commodities being speculated up by RL flippers, I see people suffering through lack of essential goods while the wealthy can still afford them but at ripoff prices. I don’t call that “equilibrium”.

I forgot who said it but essential when your character has to pay for eating, heating, housing, and medical insurance/treatment or else your character dies permantently, then your argument will be valid.

DeWolfe.2174:

Ones desires are highly influenced by the desires, behaviors, and possessions of others. It mostly stems from wanting to fit in, to stand out, and/or not wanting to be left out. I know it seems irrelevant in an economic discussion but, an economy and the emotional state of those in it are intertwined.

I understand this part. What I don’t understand is how a feeling of futility makes the market bad for them. These feelings are all self imposed.

phys.7689:

John Smith.4610:

3. The prices of high end goods are VERY close, if not exactly the same, to what they would be without any “TP Barons” wanting those items. There’s too much velocity for individual rich people to influence the supply/demand equation all that much, which is the only control they have if they aren’t manipulating prices.

I think you mean the prices are close to what a normal player could earn in the time it would take them to get one, or some such type of data.

It might be ineresting to see what type of data are you using to figure that.
Is it the amount of precursors created compared to the amount of hours played, then multiplied by the amount the average player makes= cost of precursor

Is it the amount of materials spent on average creating one in the forge?

The formula tells a lot here honestly.

I don’t think he’s using any sort of formula looking at how much gold an average player makes. I think he’s just looking at how many of these items are being bought and sold and by whom. As Wanze and I have pointed out these items move a lot faster than we think they do, despite their enormous price. Moving too fast for the wealthiest players to manipulate the price up in any significant way.

DeWolfe.2174:

Though, the act of flipping affects the perception of value. Which can certainly increase limited item prices.

I’m not following. Please state why this is.

People have been using precursors and legendaries a lot to show how rich are driving up prices as they are manipulating, or the only ones competing for these items. Well I don’t have numbers but I do have this post from another thread

John Smith.4610:

It’s unlikely that you’ve ever traded on a market that hasn’t sold an item in the last 2 hours.

and this one here…

John Smith.4610:

Actually 9 have sold in the last 24 hours.

Edit: ^Referancing Twilight

While we can’t have exact data we can see from these posts that even with the highest value luxury goods it is impossible for only the richest of players to be the ones purchasing and manipulating the prices such that they rise out players’ reaches. There is more movement to these markets then we think, more movement than can be controlled by the wealthiest.

brittitude.1983:

If you were referring to my post, it is very much on topic and while some people might not agree with it, I don’t think that it is fair to dismiss it as trolling.
….

I didn’t mean you

brittitude.1983:

There would need to be a way to prevent exploiting the time-gate on the ability to withdraw the gold. Do you have a more optimal solution?

I think Gene Archer has provided the best idea so far which people seem to be ignoring.

Just so everyone knows, ignoring trolls is an option.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

But these items aren’t currency used to make purchases…

Neither are skins but that doesn’t matter after the 15th. Let us dream a little

As someone pointed out there is no holy trinity. Every class excels at different things but all classes can do nearly everything. So play what looks the most fun cause you aren’t stuck to a specific play style. If you want something more traditional I would recommend warrior, guardian, or ranger. If you are looking for something a little different from traditional mmo classes I would recommend the mesmer or engineer.

Charismatic Harm.9683:

Aidan Savage.2078:

Sometimes items have such a large spread (look at precs and legendaries) because there’s too few of the items or because buyers refuse to pay more than X and sellers refuse to sell for less than Y. That wont change regardless of changes to listing methods.

I’ll provide an example of how it would work for a precursor (specifically Dusk), but some assumptions will need to be made.

Assumptions:

• A total of 10 Dusks have been sold in the last 24 hours (John Smith gave data similar to this a few months back in a different thread)
• More items were sold to Buy Orders than were purchased from Sell Listings (6 from BO / 4 from SL)
• The Buy Order price was 866g03s97c (current highest BO at the time of this post)
• The Sell Listing price was 919g98s99c (current lowest SL at the time of this post)
• Buy Order and Sell Listing prices remain constant, to the prices above, at the time of a new listing
• A fixed % of 25% will be used for the example (keep in mind this % is used on the gap between the average price of the items that actually sold and the current Sell Listing, not the gap between Buy Orders and Sell Listings)

Example:

• Running Average price = Total sales / Total number sold (during the time period of 24h)
  • (6 * 8660397 + 4 * 9199899) / 10 = 887g61s98c
• Price Gap = Current Sell Listing – Running Average Price
  • 9199899 – 8876198 = 32g37s01c
• Increment = Price Gap * 25%
  • 323701 * .25 = 8g09s25c (this calculates to 0.8% of the current Sell Listing)
• Next lowest listing price = Current Sell Listing price – Increment
  • 9199899 – 80925 = 911g89s74c

In this example, the player base has determined that the price they’re willing to sell Dusk’s at is actually closer to the Buy Order price than the current Sell Listing price, because players actually sold Dusk’s that way.

With the calculation of the new increment, undercutting by 1c isn’t a viable option anymore. So, the new seller has to determine if they are willing to lose ~8g to undercut someone, or if they’re willing to wait in line behind the seller that is currently at ~920g.

As more items are sold in one direction or another, the increment will go up or down and the price should move closer to equilibrium.

As the price moves closer to equilibrium, the difference between Buy Orders and Sell Listings closes, the prices of items sold come closer together, the price gap decreases and the increment decreases (to a minimum of 1c).

It all depends on how Buyers and Sellers actually buy items and the prices they pay for them / sell them for.

+1. Excellent.