Guild Wars 2

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

SolidTx.3249:

Adding more content to the game does not detract from your enjoyment.

Funny, I said that to someone about the Super Adventure Box not long ago, and they told me it was the crudest and silliest argument, essentially sticking my head in the sand and ignoring that it was a pile of charr excrement. Okay, there MAY have been some more swear words involved and some rude references to certain parts of anatomy (and uses of which are either illegal or physically impossible).

I’d also ask one question though, assuming you are right and there are more people on the side wanting this type of gear progression than those who don’t.

What makes it right to do such excruciating amount of content development for only one group over another, who will never use it? Why spend the man-hours working on that, when you could work on something both sides would actually do? Such as the aforementioned Box.

completely fair question. I would hope that the devs are able to figure that out. Not you, but others have suggested that me and my guild and the thousands of others who want “progression” features go away and play Wildstar or whatever. Your question is just as valid for those folks as it is for me.

I’ve never said that my view is right and the other is wrong, and I dont believe that. Despite what some may say or believe, I understand and appreciate the disdain for grinding and activities in games that take time but add no value. I dont want those either and I’ve said that in multiple posts (but some don’t care to read those sentences).

If the devs can find features that appeal to everyone more credit to them, but that’s hard to do. My first post, the original honest question was FAR more about asking for raid-like content, additional dungeons, open up more of the map, give us more hearts and quests and yes ADD more rewards to that. My follow-up original question was “what is the disdain for gear progression” and that inspired a mostly healthy debate.

I would like to think that almost eveyone here and in the game wants MORE NEW content. More zones opened, more and more difficult dungeons, some raids, and with that cool and exciting rewards to go with them.

Where we seem to differ is what those rewards might be. Yes me and many others would like those rewards to improve our characters. Opposing that view others have expressed those rewards need only add new visuals and titles and not be stat impacting. That stands as our disagreement.

Seems like we agree on more than not.

“Edit: What’s really funny is, from that entire post…that’s all you walked away with, all you cared to comment on. chuckle”

because I found the rest of the argument fairly baseless.

Adding more content to the game does not detract from your enjoyment. If you dont like whats added, DONT participate. So they add in some tier gear, or perhaps a dungeon with heaven forbid an “attunement”. The fact that the content exists doesnt take away from you. It doesnt. You dont have to participate.

Now you say that the time/investment made by the devs is wasted. Not so, there are more than enough people on the other side of the argument who with me, agree the content would be appreciated. So what if you dont like every feature the game has to provide. You’ve already said you like the game the way that it is. Im not advocating change to that – just new content that will appeal to others that you can ignore.

We can agree the game needs more content, harder more challenging content with better rewards and a wider variety of looks. Even by their own admission people on your side of the argument here say there is very little to do in the game and their play time is dimished.

that is the crux of my argument. the base game is wonderful. its combat is the benchmark. graphical quality near perfect. But once you get 80, get exotic gear, profs to 400 and a legendary there is not much to do other than WvW which even with its quality can get repetitive and old.

game needs more content for level 80 characters and corresponding rewards to go with it. I dont think that is a statement that will ruffle many feathers, at least from what Ive read.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

SolidTx.3249:

If whatever “requirements” there are to achieve these items are too steep of a price for you to pay so what, what skin is it off your back. Are you simply afraid that the folks that do achieve the better items will then have an UNFAIR advantage over you in PVP? I feel sorry for you, really I do.

So…because you have no life…sit at home all day playing a video game, you should have better rewards than those that can only put in a few hours of the day after work? Because honest, hardworking people that have lives don’t deserve anything nice in a game they might enjoy playing in what little free time they can devote to it? I gotcha, you feel entitled to something nicer because you put ‘more time.’ Skill > Time.

As for “unfair advantage in pvp”…by nature, a competitive game (such as player vs player) must have equal footing and enforceable rules in order to accurately determine a clear winner or loser. Gear advantage skews this, and while this isn’t terribly obvious in GW2, it is in other games like WoW. Getting your kitten handed to you because you didn’t have hours to grind the latest amazing gear level (or even while trying to grind that latest gear level) is NOT enjoyable. If you think it is, go roll a new toon in WoW, level up to 15 and go play AB in base PvE armor for a few hours and see how you feel. Maybe it makes you feel wonderful, getting beaten down over and over again (and talked kitten to), but for most normal human beings, we feel pretty crappy. We do not want this in GW2!

SolidTx.3249:

Okay make all PVE dungeon/raid gear default to static stats when entering PVP. The game already auto levels anyhow. No big deal.

It does in sPvP, which I’m good with. Dungeons it doesn’t need to because there is a cap to armor, as there should be. It worked wonderfully in GW1, it can work just as well here.

SolidTx.3249:

What then is the issue with having gear progression?

The issue with gear progression (generally) is that it’s required to access content; content that players get locked out of at later times because people have moved on. I’ve experienced this personally in WoW. I only started playing WoW last year. Started in January, was totally burnt out and hated the game by July. Why? Because every guild I joined, I couldn’t play with any of the members. I wasn’t a high enough level. I didn’t have the right gear. So on and so forth. In 7 months I killed myself grinding 3 characters to max, bored to tears running the same dungeon over and over and over again, to armor up so I could join my guild members – 1 healer, 1 dmg, 1 tank. So I could fit into any role they might need. It wasn’t fun. It wasn’t enjoyable. Not to mention the kitten I got from my dungeon groups for not having ‘x’ or ‘y’ skill, or armor, or not knowing the path because I’d never played before, or what have you. And, while yes, sometimes I got help on some of the grind from my guildies, most of them were too busy with their own grinds to be able to help. I don’t know about others, but I don’t want that in GW2. I don’t want others to suffer for hours being made to feel like they aren’t ‘good enough’ or treated like kitten because they aren’t up to speed on the gear treadmill.

SolidTx.3249:

The answer is there is No issue – other than a group of people who feel slighted because someone is able to do something they are not.

I am not willing or able to have it so by the alimighty neither shall you…that’s what you are saying.

Yes, there is an issue with gear treadmills, at least with how the treadmills and gated content has been implemented in other games, as many have pointed out (some rather rationally, and politely – me not included, I know I’m cranky). There are alternatives to what you seek in simpler solutions, but those don’t seem to be good enough answers for you. Like many who refuse to hear arguments in favor of gear treadmills, you’re equally as bigoted about accepting logical, reasonable arguments against it.

Amazing. Why do assume because I want something more from the game that I am a loser with no job and life and play video games all day? How dare you. Would you like my Linkdin profile? Would it shock you that I work 60 hours a week, have a mortgage, 2 happy well adjusted kids and a wife, been married to one woman for 19 years? How dare you.

I have achieved all I want IRL as you say. The fact that I want more from the video games I play is my right to speak. You can disagree with my opinion, but you have only degraded yourself with your wild and incorrect assumptions.

Warruz.8096:

So much focus on gear progression when the true question really is progression in itself, in that it hits flat at 80. Remove gear from the equation entirely, in terms of just progression in anything once you hit 80 and your in exotics your done.

All thats left to progress your character is a few ascended pieces which are gated in terms of how fast you can acquire them and your look. I like progression, it doesnt have to be gear progression but there has to be progression. Luckily my want to progress in Fractals to get some skins and working towards my legendary is my current goal, but there really is nothing else to progress my character.

There are no challenging dungeons that im not going to be able to complete because the mechanics made it a difficult fight. There is just content that is will take longer.

There is nearly 0 PvE content in the game that actually requires you to talk to one another because of its difficulty and the few that do exist simply arnt worth the effort as there are easier ways to obtain what you want.

GW2 Needs a Raid, it needs its own form of raids. Where content is challenging (not just High #’s) to progress some aspect of your character while working together with a team. Challenging content is what builds teams as you have to work together, if a task isnt hard enough then there is no reason for teams to form. GW2 has one of the friendliest communities, however is also have one of the quietest.

I like progression, it doesnt need to be gear progression but it needs to be progression. I would like a GW2 raid to progress through. And dont get hung up on the term raid here, its just a term to describe challenging PvE content in this context.

100% agree. Progression is what is missing in Gw2. As said earlier, all we want is for some raids to advance and make progress. Also as stated earlier, progression doesnt have to be gear related (yes, read back I said that too) but it could be.

The problem is GW2 doesnt have a progression system and there are a lot of players who want one. Oh, and one more thing. Sure this is an Arena net game. And yes it is a sequel to Guild Wars. But this game IS NOT Guild Wars. It’s Guild Wars 2 and its okay if its different

I think the “I hate gear progression because I equate it to griding” or “I want my skill to be the only measure of worth” crowd is missing something entirely in htis argument.

Those of us asking for something more -something harder, something that takes longer, more comittment, yes even More skill, are NOT infringing upon your enjoyment of the game. What do you care if the devs add in new items/gear that based on your schedule or willingingess or ABILITY to achieve is impossible?

All I see is an argument that basically sums up to “If I can’t have it then no one can.” All I am asking for is something akin to dungeoning/raiding with tier gear that is associated with difficulty. The more difficult the dungeon the better the items and the better they look.

If whatever “requirements” there are to achieve these items are too steep of a price for you to pay so what, what skin is it off your back. Are you simply afraid that the folks that do achieve the better items will then have an UNFAIR advantage over you in PVP? I feel sorry for you, really I do.

Okay make all PVE dungeon/raid gear default to static stats when entering PVP. The game already auto levels anyhow. No big deal. What then is the issue with having gear progression?

The answer is there is No issue – other than a group of people who feel slighted because someone is able to do something they are not.

I am not willing or able to have it so by the alimighty neither shall you…that’s what you are saying.

tolunart.2095:

SolidTx.3249:

If GW2 philosophy is to make a game so a player who plays the game for 5-10 hours a week can have the same gear, look, and capabilities as someone who invests 30 hours a week – then GW2 will FAIL.

This is my idea of the perfect MMO.

Bonus: immature and elitist kids have a kitten because they can’t be better than everyone else just because they spend 12 hrs a day pressing buttons and leave.

I am no kid, far from it. And for you to assume that I am, and a bad player simply because I want the game to provide more progression features is also incorrect. I’m a John Gault like person – your a Karl Marx like person. That’s the difference.

skill, age has nothing to do with this argument. the argument is about content, or in GW2’s case the lack thereof. And why would anyone be opposed to Arena making higher level content that requires more investment, more skill, more achievement. Doing so doesnt detract from the casual player at all..

Unless the casual player is kitten off because they cant have the same thing for a lot less investment- for less work. We should call these folks welfare gamers instead of casual gamers – because that’s what you’re advocating.

hmm. I simply want GW2 to add things that me and my mates can continue to do to make our characters better – better looking, better playing, more powerful. What’s wrong with that? Nothing I say.

Getting rewarded for doing things and achieving greater things above and beyond what others may do is part of the human spirit.

I am, admittedly, a bit surprised. I never realized that gear progression could be viewed so negatively. I see how you are looking at it – but hopefully you can respect another point of view.

We think of gear progression as a good thing. I guess the difference then comes down to a capitalistic vs communistic game design philosophy. Said differently some want a game that reward their players with better possessions and items based on their achievements, hard work, dedication and comittment.

The same game, I guess, can be seen as elitist, requiring it players to work in order to get something that people feel should be communal and given to all freely.

And I don’t see GW2 at lvl 80 as a sandbox.. Once a player has exotic gear, map completion and a legendary what is there to do? Honestly, we can’t figure it out.

Vayne.8563:

You lost 90% of this forum with the words we need gear progression. That’s all I’ll say on the subject. Good luck, mate. The kittenstorm approaches.

My post was not intended to offend nor create or stir up contentious subject matters. As the title says – an honest question.

May I ask – what is the disdain for gear progression?

Quick background:

- Run a fairly large guild that moved from WoW (5 years) to SWTOR (ran out of things to do) and came here to GW2. About 250 strong and everyone loved Gw2 in the beginning. We all participated in the beta and upon release dedicated ourselves to the game in earnest.

- As the bulk of our members reached 80, got map completion and filled themselves out with the best Exotic gear there was to have we focused on WvW and running dungeons to get the gear (look) we wanted.

- All of this probably feels very familiar to many of you. Except soon after the bulk of our members started to get bored – primarily because there wasn’t anything left for them to “continue progressing” their character. Sure some leveled alts but most of us are hardcore players and like to dedicate to one charatcer. Others continued to focus on WvW but even that didn’t provide any rewards that made their characters better. A fewer number completed their legendaries and today there’s only a handful left playing GW2. Sure theres the notion of playig the game because its fun. And GW2 is that, it is fun. But many of us need to feel like we are accomplishing something. Call it vanity too, but we also want to feel and look special…and Gw’s lack of gear progression makes us sad.

- We’re still together as a guild but scattered across Marvel Heroes beta, Neverwinter beta , Secret World, Planetside and other games that we have fun with, but like a tribe we are scattered and want to find a home..As the leader I feel like GW2 is the best MMO I’ve played for many reasons and should be that home. I love the game and it has so much potential. But alas, it has yet to be that for us.

- But without the trappings of end game my guild and even myself feel like GW2 is a game thats easy to forget, to stop playing. I log into the game and look at my guardian and feel like playing won’t give me anything to show for my time.

- We want raiding or at the least scalable dungeons that reward loot that makes our characters better. We NEED gear progression. Sure the Ascended system is a step in the right direction (Kinda) but its really not what we need; its too limited. We need a true scalable gear progression system that rewards dedication and achievement. The fractals are interesting but we need more.

- Will GW2 ever be a destination we can call home? Like we did in EQ and WoW for so many years. We loved our time there and after numerous years moved on for good reasons. We wanted GW2 to be our new home, but it’s not, and I guess it wont be until Arena decides that it will give hardcore players something to do.

We love the game. I love the game. I just wish it would provide end game.

thanks for listening.
Cheers

stay classy san diego