Guild Wars 2

Beating the Vale Guardian last night, played as berzerker GS necromancer with Axe/Focus as backup. Used Rise! instead of Well of Suffering.

- Due to Rise! I had no issues staying alive, it removes a lot of incoming damage from the seekers.
- I could easily stay on the boss throughout the whole fight, it felt like I had very little DPS downtime. Had little issue spamming Gravedigger in last half of the fight.
- Ran with Blood Magic/Soul Reaping/Reaper, transfusion is heaven for this fight for some extra healing on group but especially for repositioning downed people towards a safe location and the raid was very happy for me to have this traited. I think it’s usefulness will decline in the long run when people have more experience on this fight but that would allow me to go back to Spite for extra damage in last phase.
- Picked Axe for situations where i needed to move to the green circles when someone else might not have been able to reach it, seemed more useful then running no ranged weapons
- Grasping Darkness, Executioner’s Scythe and Flesh Golem’s Charge helped a lot with breaking CC bars though sometimes CDs do not line up so well as other professions (I’m not sure but judging for calls during the fight)
- No clue how much Vampiric Presence helped, kinda difficult to keep track.

Overall quite happy with the result.

Nemesis.8593:

Xephz.3185:

Nemesis.8593:

In fights which demand sustain type DPS dodging doesn’t do anything to condition damage which is already stacked on the target.

This does not seem correct. If a condition damage user has to dodge, he cannot apply conditions during the time he is dodging, this means at some point you temporarily miss some bleeding/burning/chill/poison/torment you could have had if you had been able to use a condition applying skill during the time you were dodging. It is just more difficult to notice the damage drop because it is one that where the missing damage is spread over the duration of the condition you could not apply instead of straight up a big number that couldve been observed had there been no need to dodge.

Dodging and missing 2 scepter auto-attacks barely puts a dent in a condi build’s overall DPS… dodging and missing a 100B attack + needing to re-position severely, cripples a power bursting type build.

My point was that there is an effect (yes barely a dent, and much less then a melee zerker build, but its still a dent) while you said in your previous comment it doesn’t do anything. I think we should all strive to be as accurate in our statements as possible to avoid misinterpretation and confusion. There is plenty of misinformation and confusion already as you often point out yourself.

Nemesis.8593:

In fights which demand sustain type DPS dodging doesn’t do anything to condition damage which is already stacked on the target.

This does not seem correct. If a condition damage user has to dodge, he cannot apply conditions during the time he is dodging, this means at some point you temporarily miss some bleeding/burning/chill/poison/torment you could have had if you had been able to use a condition applying skill during the time you were dodging. It is just more difficult to notice the damage drop because it is one that where the missing damage is spread over the duration of the condition you could not apply instead of straight up a big number that couldve been observed had there been no need to dodge.

spoj.9672:

Altoid.9104:

[edit] Furthermore, in other games when people say “X class deals Y DPS” I usually get really close to that value, even if it’s assuming perfect rotations. In this game I see people say values and the real value is all over the place.

This is for two reasons.

First because GW2 has way more variables in its combat system than most other MMO’s.

Second because noone factors in all the variables in spreadsheets. Because its too much work and it isnt the purpose of those spreadsheets to give a real dps value.

Theres a really good example to this. Most theorycrafting is done with the benchmark armour value of enemies being 2600. Because this is pretty standard and is what is used in tooltips. But in reality boss armour varies too much and we dont have extensive data on every single boss and champ. So its easier for comparisons sake to just take a few standard values and calculate with those. But because we arent using the matched armour values to a real boss. You will never see an accurate number because of this and the many other variables not factored in.

That doesnt mean the comparisons and data from the spreadsheets is wrong or useless though.

I think a lot of people have mistakenly assumed that spreadsheets do give out a real dps value. Which is I think is one of the points Nemesis has been trying to make. I have taken a break for about 18 months (or longer, cant remember) and before that I was always doing fractals with the same group of people so I have not been affected by things such being kicked from groups and such but it seems a lot of others have experienced something like that, which is problematic in itself.

Altoid.9104:

That’s the thing though, people use theory dps to talk about a class on the dps tier list. 25k Rev vs 14k necro dps, sure you can say those values aren’t reasonable and it’s just theoretical but then when it comes to in game values are you implying that necro deals 56% of the damage a rev will deal in most in game situations? Thats why I was saying I think the spreadsheets are flawed, most other games with meters use the spreadsheets as a base then calculate real in game numbers to determine where classes actually fall on a list. I haven’t seen that for this game, everything seems to stop at the spreadsheet part and then it gets advertised.

I think you just summed up why the spreadsheet users are advocating in favor of some sort of ingame damagemeter. Having to manually calculate ingame numbers for a sample size that would make it reliable enough to be value is too timeconsuming to be considered realistic.

This also creates the issue that people who do not understand how to interpret spreadsheet information just see it as X >Y in every circumstance and act accordingly to that. But that is not a problem of the spreadsheet information itself.

While I do not think that one profession doing only 56% of the damage of another profession is a realistic scenario I would suggest that even 90% would be barely acceptable and cause for evaluation.

Nemesis.8593:

You’re trying hard to get people to use that melee reaper zerker necro with dhuumfire in raids which will probably get them to do 3K DPS for the whole 15 seconds which they will be alive.

I have been playing as a melee reaper with berserker gear and dhuumfire traited for a while now and have had no issues whatsoever in any content to stay alive and keep damage on a boss (though the reactor fractal boss makes you improvise a lot, but even in this case I find I do more damage over the duration of the fight in the melee reaper setup then for example just whacking at it from range with an axe for the whole fight or switching to a condition setup . The only times I have had issues is when I was distracted or unfocused and that has nothing to do with necromancers, other professions, the meta as it was or currently is or any ingame factor at all.

I do not get the impression from Spoj that he thinks that spreadsheet DPS is actually achievable ingame and have trouble understanding why you would think he does.
Also I do not think he is creating “fake math” but I think what you mean is that the numbers represented by spreadsheets do not translate to reality, which of course is true. But that does not make the math wrong or fake.

Nemesis.8593:

Xephz.3185:

Nemesis.8593:

Arantheal.7396:

Nemesis.8593:

My friend… it’s not even about the comparison between classes…

So you openly admits it’s a popularity & skill contest?
Wow, didn’t expected you to be this honest…

@Xephz.3185 … as you can plainly see by the above comment, a lot of people continue to refuse my claims even when i have backed them up with actual video proof, while continuing to provide misleading information.

There are many who already realized what has happened and agree with me, even Goku… the “RIP Nemesis” Goku, contacted me yesterday and we had a nice long chat.

But the others… until they verify for themselves what the REAL DPS values are they will never understand just how meaningless the spreadsheets really are.

It’s not about a popularity contents, it’s not about class comparison… it’s about the spreadsheets and all conclusions drawn from them.

You’ve saw recently DnT promoted 18-19K DPS necromancer build via spreadsheets… wrong again… the meta is changing alright… from some bad builds which relied on icebow to work, to other bad builds…

Builds made by math…

And of course there’s a new wave of stuff being promoted “necromancer is in a much better spot right now… we have gravedigger…” everyone will try to use gravedigger everywhere now, end up doing 2K DPS at times… just like those 6x icebows flame shaman “speed run”, while thinking they do 18K DPS.

I have said 100 times already… the math is meaningless, all the conclusions of the math-in-a-void are not to be trusted.

So what do people do ?… make up new conclusions…

That is why i will say again… you guys either take my word for it, or… do… in your own time… Bloomhunger, Captain Ashym, Old Tom and last Champion Grawl Shaman… and manually calculate your own DPS.
You don’t even have to post your results…

OR… play the game wrong for another 2 years.

I have done my part even though i shouldn’t have because in the end i got close to nothing out of it.

Would you agree with me that manually calculating the real DPS of a 100 Bloomhunger kills and taking the average of those 100 Bloomhunger kills would be a more accurate representation of someones real DPS at Bloomhunger then of merely manually calculating it for 1 kill?

Yes… of course…

However it’s not about the DPS at bloomhunger, but about the major differences between REAL DPS values of the same build with the same damage rotation… in different scenarios.

Brazil and Narc both had 9K to 11K+ DPS at Bloomhunger based on the number of Icebows used.
Brazil’s DPS dropped down to 5K in ascalonian… and 2K at grawl shaman.

Now… even if it’s 3 to 6K in ascalonian on average and 1 to 3K at grawl shaman on average…
the differences in DPS of the same build, played by the same person… with the same team comp… based on encounter, are so great… that it literally renders all math spreadsheets meaningless even for comparison purposes.

At grawl shaman you do more with a condition build if you play with your left foot then you would with a melee zerker, in a premade group… at Brazil’s skill level…

Will the spreadsheets ever give out such conclusions ?… Will they ever show the mind-blowing variations in DPS based on encounter ?

All they give out now is unachievable static values which serve absolutely no real purpose other then self advertise, and have confused the entire Guild Wars 2 community for over 2 years…

I have said these things since this whole mess started and received an insane amount of ridicule for it…

I knew that if i am ever going to continue making guides to builds that actually work without icebow, and advertise real DPS numbers in them… without people going “pffff… so small… sinister engineer does 20K”… i must first break the false “berserker meta”.

I have done that… yet some people still refuse to knowledge my real DPS numbers and the conclusions drawn from them.

Well then… those people should make their own tests, draw their own conclusions… i’ll just be waiting here quietly for when they do… just to see what they have to say then.

Also, i wish to apologize for my previous… blunt… reply, it is not always easy to distinguish between who is actually asking a question and who is just trolling.

I do not think spreadsheets can give an accurate conclusion on a per encounter basis merely by looking at the maximum possible theoretical DPS and making a comparison between professions at those maximums and drawing conclusions for that. One would for example need to take into the time spent running away, dodging and doing other things that do not involve DPS. This of course brings up a few questions I myself do not have an answer to such as:

Is there a difference between for example a condition necromancer and a berserker necromancer in the time lost doing things other then dealing damage. And if so, is this difference large enough for a condition necromancer to deal more damage during the encounter then a berserker necromancer.

It would be way too time consuming to gather data of the time lost from doing other things then dealing damage in order to make accurate comparisons between different builds of a same profession or even between different professions. Especially since lost DPS time in itself consists of multiple factors such as dodging and player variables such as focus, skill and experience.

Spreadsheets can perhaps help to clear up some of these questions (For example build A does 18k theoretical DPS and build B does 12k theoretical DPS would mean that build B needs to have atleast 50% more DPS time to be better then build A. Such things could be evaluated through recordings and such but as said before its rather time consuming).

I suppose this is why spreadsheets are used and why Bloomhunger is used as a hallmark (since it has the least DPS downtime of all bosses). It is quick and those who understand the limitations of spreadsheets can make use of it. You are right of couse in that you cannot simply translate spreadsheet DPS into different practical environments but it’s use shouldnt be disregarded either.

Mercurias.1826:

Is there even a point to this thread anymore?

I think the discussion between Spoj and Nemesis and the people around them is interesting enough for this thread to have a point. Exploring the perception of the community about the viability of the Necromancer in various aspects of the game and how this perception came to be has raised a lot of questions. Both “groups” seem to offer different approaches and conclusions and the discussion of these is I think valid and adds to the overall understanding of the Necromancer.

Nemesis.8593:

Arantheal.7396:

Nemesis.8593:

My friend… it’s not even about the comparison between classes…

So you openly admits it’s a popularity & skill contest?
Wow, didn’t expected you to be this honest…

@Xephz.3185 … as you can plainly see by the above comment, a lot of people continue to refuse my claims even when i have backed them up with actual video proof, while continuing to provide misleading information.

There are many who already realized what has happened and agree with me, even Goku… the “RIP Nemesis” Goku, contacted me yesterday and we had a nice long chat.

But the others… until they verify for themselves what the REAL DPS values are they will never understand just how meaningless the spreadsheets really are.

It’s not about a popularity contents, it’s not about class comparison… it’s about the spreadsheets and all conclusions drawn from them.

You’ve saw recently DnT promoted 18-19K DPS necromancer build via spreadsheets… wrong again… the meta is changing alright… from some bad builds which relied on icebow to work, to other bad builds…

Builds made by math…

And of course there’s a new wave of stuff being promoted “necromancer is in a much better spot right now… we have gravedigger…” everyone will try to use gravedigger everywhere now, end up doing 2K DPS at times… just like those 6x icebows flame shaman “speed run”, while thinking they do 18K DPS.

I have said 100 times already… the math is meaningless, all the conclusions of the math-in-a-void are not to be trusted.

So what do people do ?… make up new conclusions…

That is why i will say again… you guys either take my word for it, or… do… in your own time… Bloomhunger, Captain Ashym, Old Tom and last Champion Grawl Shaman… and manually calculate your own DPS.
You don’t even have to post your results…

OR… play the game wrong for another 2 years.

I have done my part even though i shouldn’t have because in the end i got close to nothing out of it.

Would you agree with me that manually calculating the real DPS of a 100 Bloomhunger kills and taking the average of those 100 Bloomhunger kills would be a more accurate representation of someones real DPS at Bloomhunger then of merely manually calculating it for 1 kill?

Aenesthesia.1697:

Nemesis.8593:

Ohhh… but it would prove soooo much.

I do not understand your previous statement though, considering what you just said now.

It would prove you are better with the necromancer than me with the ele, but i don’t need to send you a video for that, i assume it’s that way as i am not that experienced with the ele.

You didn’t understand my previous statement. Period. I used the words ‘perfect scenario’ or ‘ideal situations’ or something like that. I was referring to spreadsheets, which don’t account for real fights and you having to survive in order to keep kicking kitten .

My second comment goes perfectly well with that: if you can stand in one spot dealing damage without dying, you either have perfect positioning against a stationary target that is ignoring you for some reason, or you are using a spreadsheet….

To the people saying you need the spreadsheet in order to make a fair comparison, i say no. The spreadsheet helps to know which stats to chose given a rotation you know you can keep, or help you realize that lich form is better than gravedigger spam, and things like that.

But comparing to professions that have different mobility, different complexity in their rotation, different cast times, different capacity to soak damage, is completely useless unless the theoretical dps difference between two professions ends up being so big you can assume that you are going to outdps the other guy in every single scenario.

The only fair comparison would be a damage recount. It would stop the meta nonsense, and make people learn how to optimise their damage.

But that is I think the way the spreadsheets should be used; to find the optimal choices in gear, traits, skills, weapons and skill rotations. It should be used to answer the question to how someone playing a necromancer has to play to achieve the maximum possible damage output. Comparison between professions would indeed not be accurate with just the use spreadsheets, but a large difference in damage output could suggest possible imbalances between professions. If the damage output of optimal setups of two professions are calculated and one is shown to have double the damage output of the other, would you think find this problematic?

Nemesis.8593:

Xephz.3185:

Nemesis.8593:

Aenesthesia.1697:

Nemesis.8593:

If you really want a contest… tell you what…
Bloomhunger, Captain Ashym, Old Tom and last Champion Grawl Shaman…

That would prove nothing. Well, if I, using an elementalist, wich is like my fourth proffesion, manage to beat your dps, then it would really prove something (at least for me), But, as I said, i would need perfect positioning, which i don’t have as i am not that experienced. .

Besides, as i said, this higher dps stuff is just the potential and calculated against non mobile targets that are not trying to kill you while in a real situation, being tanky and maintaining constant dps could yield better results. For example, verdant bring events can be cleaned really fast solo with the necro, while with the elementalist it requires carefully picking the targets in order to avoid being kittened.

Ohhh… but it would prove soooo much.

I do not understand your previous statement though, considering what you just said now.

Actually, it would prove very little other then allowing him to state something along the lines of “On thursday the 12th of november 2015 I had higher DPS on 1 kill of Bloomhunger with my necromancer then on 1 kill of Bloomhunger with my elementalist.” Or the other way around, but judging from his statement that he is not as experienced with his elementalist doing more DPS with his necromancer could be are more likely outcome.

And while such a statement might be true and accurate it does not say anything about whether or not what profession actually does more DPS. There are too many random variables to make statements about balance based on simply a case to case comparison. You would need a far greater sample size to achieve such a thing which would be extremely time consuming. Which why spreadsheets and calculations and statistics would be able to present far more useful data in a much less time.

You are wrong… on all accounts.
How little people understand yet they believe they know enough to give advice or contradict.
My friend… it’s not even about the comparison between classes…

Until one of you does this… you’ll continue to believe that spreadsheets actually mean something.

… you don’t even have to tell me the results, “just do it”.
You’ll thank me later.

Could you explain to me why I am wrong? And what have I misunderstood? I appreciate any feedback about my thoughts but it would help me if you could be a little more concrete.

The way you speak by using sentences such as “My friend, ..” and “You’ll thank me later” could be perceived by others as such that you are looking down on them. It might help maintain polite discussion if sentences such as those would be left out since they do not really add to the discussion.

Nemesis.8593:

Aenesthesia.1697:

Nemesis.8593:

If you really want a contest… tell you what…
Bloomhunger, Captain Ashym, Old Tom and last Champion Grawl Shaman…

That would prove nothing. Well, if I, using an elementalist, wich is like my fourth proffesion, manage to beat your dps, then it would really prove something (at least for me), But, as I said, i would need perfect positioning, which i don’t have as i am not that experienced. .

Besides, as i said, this higher dps stuff is just the potential and calculated against non mobile targets that are not trying to kill you while in a real situation, being tanky and maintaining constant dps could yield better results. For example, verdant bring events can be cleaned really fast solo with the necro, while with the elementalist it requires carefully picking the targets in order to avoid being kittened.

Ohhh… but it would prove soooo much.

I do not understand your previous statement though, considering what you just said now.

Actually, it would prove very little other then allowing him to state something along the lines of “On thursday the 12th of november 2015 I had higher DPS on 1 kill of Bloomhunger with my necromancer then on 1 kill of Bloomhunger with my elementalist.” Or the other way around, but judging from his statement that he is not as experienced with his elementalist doing more DPS with his necromancer could be are more likely outcome.

And while such a statement might be true and accurate it does not say anything about whether or not what profession actually does more DPS. There are too many random variables to make statements about balance based on simply a case to case comparison. You would need a far greater sample size to achieve such a thing which would be extremely time consuming. Which why spreadsheets and calculations and statistics would be able to present far more useful data in a much less time.

I beat her at the 6th attempt, used the 30/30/10/0/0 conditionmancer with Terror and Rare Veggie Pizza. Once you learn the pattern and get used to spotting the red circles you can save your dodges for her attacks. Doom or Reaper’s Mark if you run out of energy. With long fears and Terror she dies pretty fast. Utilities used were Blood is Power, Epidemic and Signet of Locust.