Guild Wars 2

Phantom.8130:

you’re missing the point. they nerfed the builds they were supposed to buff, and barely touched the single build that everyone was crying to get nerfed. which will result in MORE glass cannon thieves running around.

using your example, it’s like a rich kid’s dad confiscating his bike, and kicking the tires of the kid’s car. it’s just plain facepalm worthy. the whole thing is just absolutely mind boggling.

I believe that analogy is more like taking away the Rich Kid’s Computer, Gadjets and Toys while leaving him with his Burst’ol’mobile with bling bling and a boot full of booze and ladies.

While I understand the need to make small changes to balance games, but the changes need to be in the correct direction, no? Seems like ANet just wants all Thieves to play D/D, so come one day they will finally nerf backstab & death blossom into oblivion and drink yummy Thief tears.

I’m guessing the dev who balances stuff obviously had his butt handed to him by a Thief so badly he has a perma grudge against them. I mean c’mon, at least have a short note at the end of the profession patch notes, outlining roughly the thought process behind the change right? At least we can make out some semblance of a why the hell skills like Cluster Bomb get nerfed.

metaphorm.6904:

Devourer Venom (causes immoblize) is extremely strong for PvP even if you have no traits at all enhancing venoms. Its one of the core skills in the Sword+Pistol build and is a reasonable substitute for Basilisk Venom in the Backstab build.

All of the venoms become incredibly potent in Venomous Aura builds as well, obviously. When properly traited each venom activated will grant your entire party 2 stacks of Might and cause their next few strikes to Drain Life, in addition to whatever else the venom provides. In PvE situations a Venomous Aura Skale Venom will quickly stack 20+ Vulnerability on a target and is one of the best ways to cause damage spikes against a boss. In PvP sharing Ice Drake Venom will let your team dominate an enemy team pretty quickly. Chilled is an extremely powerful debuff.

So I guess the only legit complaint about these skills is that they are not very good in solo PvE, and they require traits to take maximum advantage of. I don’t see why that makes them “a joke”, as the OP has said. There are multiple good use cases for Venoms and several builds that take full advantage of Venoms in both PvP and PvE. This looks like a big success in my opinion.

Yup I agree with Devourer’s and I even wrote a thread on Basilisk vs Devourer’s. It’s the only solo venom untraited that is worth its salt in PvP. In PvE…. even traited its subpar unless shared.

I would beg to differ on the incredibly potent part in terms of PvE. 6-8 Stacks of might are pretty nice I agree. Life drain without any healing sets is about 350’ish per successful application, giving about 600 to 2000’ish healing unless you stagger your venoms which is very tricky considering party members are rarely all together at one spot. (and they don’t waste attacks, range or obstructed).

Vulnerability and weakness are only good for 2.5’s (duration on Skale is 5s) due to Unshakable on bosses and even when I have placed Skale on all 5 members it drops off so fast many times I see the stack get up to 20’ish and then just disappear within 2 seconds. That’s 1-2 skills or auto’s totaling 10, at most?

Its the best support a thief can bring to PvE BUT it’s not as rosy as you make it out to be. Positioning, short range of VA, Unshakable all make it in practice no where near as powerful as on paper, for a skill set that is fully traited in not one, but two lines to fully make use of.

Don’t get me wrong, its darn good and in my opinion the best a thief can bring to the table in PvE and I love it.

However due to Venom Share PvP limitations, it will always be restricted and will never improve. Therefore remaining subpar with or without traits for both the solo PvE’er and solo non VA PvP’er (except for Devourer’s which is 1 out of 5 venoms).

Stiv.1820:

Foosnark.1784:

I thought it was just me, but maybe not. It’s actually okay by me, but I wish it was easier to tell when “revealed” is still on you.

Would be great if the entire frame of our game had a pulsing white edge or something when relieved is on us. Just something besides looking at the boon icon. Still just “feel” will always be the best way, even if they gave us a .5 second nerf we will get used to it.

And then what happens when they make another .5 second nerf? And another? I really hope they didn’t stealth nerf it. Its bad enough that if it was done, its worst if they did it secretly.

Can anyone with a macro timing mouse check to see if this is true? Until then, I think further comments on anyone’s part are just conjecture.

It’s a real catch 22 kind of thing. They can’t buff venoms as that would make VA builds too strong in PvP. But at the same time, Venoms on their own are kinda weak traited and even weaker untraited. I run a venom share PvE build as I love the utility, health leech and the cherry on top Might.

But on my own solo, I find using other utilities that can help me burst/control PvE mobs are so much better. Easier to reset a fight with stealth or do more DPS with Caltrops/Ambush Trap compared to short lived utility and poor poison damage Venoms give. Especially since VA builds have 30 in Shadow Arts, stealth utils are so much stronger and easier to utilize solo compared to venoms.

Back to the main point, yes venoms solo are poor for PvE, below average for PvP. Gets alright for Venom Share PvE (although kinda lacking compared to what guardians can bring) and strong for organized tPvP.

Tldr:
Venoms solo suck, not gonna change unless it rains pigs cos PvP Venom Share gonna become too strong. And we all know ANet listens to PvP whiners, so PvE Thieves gotta live with average Venoms.

PS. I have concluded that the opinion is roughly split into half about whether the change is good or bad. I personally feel that it was unwarranted and takes something unique out of the Thief class. It still works yes, but not in the same reliability as before.

The world will not end nor will it make us suffer much in PVP which is why it makes it all the more sadder. It wasn’t game breaking in the first place, why bring it down weaker than a weapon skill now.

Any Basilisk user will adapt to it, but I for one totally dislike the direction ANet seems to be pushing Thieves into.

EasymodeX.4062:

You are generally neglecting the part where an Immobilized target can still use defensive abilities (invulns, blocks, parries, blinds, protection, knockbacks, the list goes on). As a result, the stun is still valuable separate from the Immobilize.

WORTH IT as an elite? Meh. However, saying that Devourer > Basilisk is crying wolf. Stick with the actual argument.

Well I did list those down on the pro’s and con’s list. I must agree the topic title is slightly misleading but I have bolded the actual argument in bold at the end of each post. Stun and Immobilize are different but ANet have made an Elite into a Utility skill, which is the point I’m trying to see how players are reacting to it.

Vexus.5423:

Just a reminder; 45 cooldown 1.5 second stun that does not take up any utility/survival slots. Meaning your build does not change by selecting this Elite over any other ability. We don’t lose -anything- by going with Basilisk.

Thieves Guild is a ‘lol you thought you could solo me!’ skill. It’s not needed to down that warrior who has a hard on for your death, but it’s tons of fun popping it in stealth and seeing him get wtfpwned by the confusion, blind, scorpion wire, and so on.

Good points all around, however I do disagree on some points.

You downplay the power of these two skills by a whole lot. Thieves Guild adds so much DPS/Control for any thief (non Backstab instagib build) during 1v1 or 1v2. Thats utility and added survivability right there with blinds, interrupts, confusion and instant burst.

Sure long cooldown, but its a real game changer. Have you seen the other classes Elite’s cooldowns? They’re really long too.

Also I won’t go into detail for Dagger Storm but it is also a survivability tool especially fights on node with multiple enemies. Stability + Reflect projectiles is strong and 90 secs is perfect cooldown in that its almost always up for each fight.

On to your other points

1. Stops heals :: If he pops his hand up and your Basilisk isn’t precasted, you are NEVER going to stop it. List of Healing skills and their duration. 90% are 1 to 1.5 second. Not Denied
2. Stop stomps :: Yes, it’s good to stop stomp. So are any of the other interrupts/dazes available to us. Basilisk even goes through a Stability stomp! It just isn’t as good as it once was. Disagree
3. Stops channeling skills :: Good point, agreed.
4. Stop fleeing enemy :: Devourer does the same thing. Disagree.
5. Fight good player ::Dagger Storm and Thieves Guild are just as good if not far better at interrupting any rotation of a player. Disagree.

So at the end of it all, it boils down to just the same darn thing. It still is usable but it isn’t an Elite anymore. I’m not discussing how you can use it now, I’m discussing how they made an Elite just another spare Utility skill. Any interrupt/daze/stun/knockdown weapon skill/utility can do just as well.

Are you happy for “just still usable” compared to its previous form of Elite interruption?

• It’s not about which Elite is better. It’s about the fact that they took an Elite and made it worst then a weapon skill stun or knockdown with longer cooldown. Yes it does add survivability with an added utility slot but so do the other 2 Elites.

• Therefore I disagree with your point that it doesn’t alter our builds. The builds may be the same but the play style to use our Elite to support us changes a whole lot.

Vexus.5423:

I know that’s weird and contrary to the way things are going, but I see Dagger Storm and Thieves Guild as being good in certain circumstances, where a key stun on someone who is about to stomp a teammate is more important to be at this time.

When people get better and learn all the class animations, they will probably use Basilisk Venom more, because shutting down that enemy’s casting of Thieves Guild or their heal skill is more important – and available more often – than other Elite skills.

That’s some good points there, but with the one second cast time and the fact that you have to land a strike means together with lag and reaction time, you are actually talking about an stun that takes a good 1-3 seconds to apply.

Hell, even Scorpion Wire would make a better interrupt, displaces a stomp and gives knockdown. Sure you lose a survivability util but in exchange you get Dagger Storm/Thieves Guild.

So back to your first point, Basilisk is/was only good at premeditated attacks.

Genocide.8275:

That’s right, I’m talking about the ol’ “Bas Ven > Mug > CnD > AS > Backstab” combo.

I don’t always use the BS build, but when I do… I dirtbag the kitten outta people.

Ain’t no body reactin’ quick enough to pop outta that before I get my CnD off… and besides… Who the kitten wants to waste an entire CD just for a 1.5 second stun, when you already know what’s coming next, and can’t avoid it?

If no body ain’t reacting to you quick enough to get your CnD off, wouldn’t Immobilize do the exact same thing? Dev Ven > Mug > CnD > AS > Backstab > Dagger Storm? Now with sPVP being filled with Thieves, I’m sure players have started to recognize the Poison symbols on us.

Before there was nothing you could do to stop our Elite even if you saw the buff. Which was it’s one and only saving grace, it was unstoppable for us to do what needed to be done in a short timeframe.

If it was so imbalanced as an Elite, why didn’t they change Moa Morph too? Can you counter it? No. Can you even see it coming? Not unless he was casting it in your face.


I feel really sad to have such a unique Elite ability changed to be about as strong as any other stun weapon skill or even knockdowns, when it wasn’t even game breaking in the first place. It used to be an Elite, a game changer, I could stop someone dead in his tracks for 1-2 seconds.

Doesn’t have to be for back stab, doesn’t have to be for 1 trick ponies, I could stop people with stability. Now its a utility slot skill. Don’t you feel shortchanged?

Final Thoughts – 11 Oct 2012

• I have concluded that the opinion is roughly split into half about whether the change is good or bad. I personally feel that it was unwarranted and takes something unique out of the Thief class. It still works yes, but not in the same reliability as before.

• The world will not end nor will it make us suffer much in PVP which is why it makes it all the more sadder. It wasn’t game breaking in the first place, why bring it down weaker than a weapon skill now.

• Any Basilisk user will adapt to it, but I for one totally dislike the direction ANet seems to be pushing Thieves into.

Thief

• Basilisk Venom: Increased stun duration to 1.5 seconds. Stun breakers now work on this skill.

With the Basilisk Venom change, how does everyone think about its practical uses as an Elite Skill, versus Devourer Venom in PVP and to a lesser extent in PVE? This thread is for discussion purposes so please do let me know if there are any errors in my statements. Now for the meat and potatoes.

Even prior to the change, it didn’t make sense for non Venomous Aura (venom sharing) builds to take both Devourer and Basilisk, as the primary use of them is to catch a target and ensure your damage skills land. Secondary being for kiting a mob/player or running away.

Basilisk was clearly stronger when traited with Residual Venom (extra strike) for an unbreakable 2 second stun for initiative spam/damage dealing. And although Devourer immobilizes for a good 4-6 secs, it is breakable, and given any decent opponent would be broken anywhere from 1-3 secs and possibly instantly (lucky condition break/removal).

Now with Basilisk being changed to a breakable Stun, its advantage over Devourer in my opinion is completely gone. Not only in terms of duration, but in terms of reliability and any semblance of an Elite skill.

Not only is Basilisk now subjected to removal via traits, it is also removal by all the 20’ish stun break util’s from all the classes. In fact, several of these same stun breaks DO NOT remove Immobilize! Sure you might argue that condition breaks removes Immobilize easily, but in any given 1v1 or group fight, there’s going to be at least 3-4 conditions on the target and only a few skills can wipe multiple conditions compared to the multitude of GUARANTEED stun breaks.


TLDR: Broken down into point form with references. Stun Vs Immobilize.
Main purpose of both skills, to deliver unavoidable incoming damage unless an escape is used. Secondary purpose, to retreat from a bad matchup and run or kite a target.
Elite skill is at best level, if not worst in reliability and practical application to a Slot Skill.


Elite: Basilisk Venom
Pros

• Synergizes well with 6pc Rune of Lyssa
• Stuns prevent enemy from attacking and using weapon/non stun break skills
• Can interrupt channeled or casting time abilities
• Unbreakable by any method like Moa Morph

Cons

• Does not work on most champions
• Can be guranteed stun broken with 20 over utils and many traits
• Shorter duration than Devourer (traited or untraited its still 2-3 seconds shorter)
• Has a 1 sec cast time, cannot be used as a reliable interrupt
• Uses up Elite slot

Slot Skill: Devourer Venom
Pros

• Works on most champions due to it being a condition
• A good 1/3 of utility stun breaks will not break Immobilize and can be “covered” with mutliple other conditions to prevent removal
• Lasts longer than Basilisk
• Instant cast, can be chained into any attack, any time
• Has higher chance of reapplying due to 1 extra strike application
• Long 5 – 6 sec duration pressures opponents to use escape/removal compared to short 1.5 – 3 sec stun
• Easier to kite monsters

Cons

• Can’t use it with Rune of Lyssa
• Enemy can still attack while Immobilized
• Does not interrupt skill use
• Can be removed by larger number of condition removal skills
• Enemy can disable/stun you in return or transfer condition
  
  
  
  Once again I reiterate, for an Elite skill, it really doesn’t seem all that different from a Slot skill now does it? Was the change warranted? Thoughts and opinions please?

So having read all the posts thus far and all the discussion about balance with a SHORTBOW 1200 range autoattack, I believe there is absolutely no reason for thief to be without it. I guess pistol is out of the question as AOE is king in WvW defense, plus having only pistols auto at 1200 would make it kinda pointless in relation to it’s other skills like unload/body shot. Yet raising all pistol skills to 1200 is going to incur the wrath of any thief hater.

Therefore back to shortbow, other then the misguided trolls or clueless who think thieves can 100 to 0 someone with a shortbow or have 5k auto crits, LOL. If fact, most of those in favor do not mind a slight damage tweak or it being traited. So long as there is an OPTION to do so and be marginally, and I repeat MARGINALLY better at keep defense.

Sylosi.6503:

So if thieves range should be brought into line, I take it you have no objection with every other classes mobilty, lack of stealth, burst damage, being “brought into line” witht that of a thief? Oh look we’ve just ended up with 8 classes exactly the same.

That’s number one where you mention all classes becoming the same.

Sylosi.6503:

I entriely agree, the point was “bringing into line” is utterly illogical as classes have differnt strengths/weakness/skills, etc and that classes are balanced as a whole, not on one specific aspect, if you bring everything into line, you have 8 identical classes.

That’s twice. By that logic GW2 would have 7 identical classes currently…

Sylosi.6503:

Dronin.3957:

Sylosi was a borderline troll who was suggesting that a 1200 would make all classes the same, That is why i felt that the link might help him out a little bit.

The only troll here is you (lying about what I said, classy), I never said that, I stated that “bringing into line” based on one aspect is idiotic, that if we followed that logic on all aspects, then all classes would be the same and that is not how they balance classes.

And yes you did say that (not classy). And clearly we are not requesting to bring EVERYTHING into line. You are saying that “bringing into line” one aspect would be idiotic if we did that on all aspects, which we are not.

So by your own logic, you are at least a borderline troll if not a fully grown forest lumberjack troll.
/rant

Back on topic, playing as a thief on WvW Defense makes makes me real sad cause the only attack I can do from the walls is Clusterkitten. If you’ve tried it you will know how agonizing it is to shoot one, and wait for it to slowly fall for about 3-4 seconds while mashing #1 hoping it hits something.

Yes, Cluster Bomb does nice damage if you trait glass canon but 3-4 sec 4k’ish crit chunks of damage isn’t going to kill even a half asleep player. Yes I can do other duties, but why am I not given the OPTION to just autoattack and Clusterbomb? Isn’t it all about giving players options regardless of how well the class is at it?

I don’t know how much it would really affect s/tPvP considering that the auto doesn’t do mind boogling damage and using Clusterbomb out to max range is slow as hell. Plus any player chasing you is gonna be well within 900 as the Evasive Shot for the Cripple is still the same range, meaning 1200 range isn’t going to be balance breaking as effective kiting distance is Cripple distance (ps. if you strafe to kite and shoot, you run slower than if you just run forward. so if you are kiting, you need chill/cripple/swiftness).

DrakeWurrum.6049:

It is a bit weird. I agree, the return should be available for 15 or even 30 seconds.

After all, the Mesmer’s Portal skill lasts 60 seconds. They can effectively teleport people across the entire map. What’s wrong with teleporting us back to where we were 15, 30, or even 45 seconds into a fight? Or maybe we’d like to runrunrun away from somebody trying to kill us, and pull off a funny little “Gotcha!” maneuver?

Exactly, for a skill that takes a Utility slot with a longish cooldown, it’s shadow return time is shorter than the Sword #2? It’s almost as if the skill were just like a less useful teleport (can’t cross gaps), more than half the time I end up running out of Shadow return time before I can use it, wasting the condition removal part of it.

I would like to see the old Flanking Strike back where it used to put you BEHIND your target instead of to the side. Some times even using it on a stationary target misses.

And while they are at it, please fix Spear: Flanking Strike as well. It NEVER EVER HITS in the water cos it displaces you too much.

Deception: Shadowstep :: “Shadowstep to target area. Becomes Shadow Return, which returns you to your starting area and cures three conditions.”

I would like to find out from the thief community whether they find the return time period of Shadowstep utility skill too short? Many times I preemptively Shadowstep to an enemy and throw a few stabs at him and dance with him for awhile but when I want to return back, it is already out of time.

I mean for a skill with about 1 minute cooldown, surely they could up the shadow return period to like 15 secs or more instead of the current 5 or so seconds. In fact its even shorter then Sword #2 Inflitrator’s return period which has no cooldown (only costs initiative).

Thoughts please?