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For Great Justice: Theorycrafting and Balance

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Posted by: Arganthium.5638

Arganthium.5638

I was writing a post in the thief forums when I came across a little jewel from a month ago. At first glance, it seemed to me like a fairly normal post (“normal” as far as balance posts go), but then I read this little piece and had to think about it for a bit.


Initiative changes
We believe this is one of the most controversial but important changes this patch. The important thing to understand is that we have been and will playtest this a lot more before we push this change. The default rate of initiative regeneration was simply to low and was causing players to either take traits to suppliment it, or to have their effectiveness suffer. This is something that has to change. What these changes intend to do is to increase the power of every single thief build that is not running these traits, and to ever so slightly reduce the maximum amount of initiative you can have per second if you min/max those traits. I know its easy to theorycraft what is going to happen here and there is a lot of danger in that. It is hard to get a sense of this change without playing it, and believe me if I could I would let everyone test a change of this magnitude and gather some more empirical and data driven feedback, but currently our resources are limited, but we still believe that this is a change whose time has come. We will monitor it very carefully when we do release it to make sure it is working as intended.

Now, first off- yes, there are plenty of things wrong with that post. However, I bolded two sections in particular, because, in retrospect, it makes a ton of sense in the context of ANet’s balancing.

Basically, what ANet is saying here is this: “we don’t know how to balance, we don’t know what principles balance is derived from, but we want to put classes on equal ground by giving a few players/employees the sole right to balance this game for us”. Yet, after a year and a half of “balancing”, the game is currently in just as bad a state as it was to start, if not a worse state. Clearly, ANet, what you are doing is simply wrong, and if you still fail to see that, then the net result is going to be more players leaving this horrifically “balanced” game.

From this post, ANet seems to follow the same mindset that I see in a lot of players who are ignorant of their own class’s ridiculous power compared to other classes (no need to get an infraction for stating which class in particular I’m talking about, but most of you can guess). Basically, those players argue that theorycrafting is garbage; numbers and facts mean nothing when being opposed by popular opinion. This type of anecdotally-based logic relies on the idea that those aforementioned numbers and facts cannot take into account the vast majority of variables in the game. In fact, quite the opposite is true; by default, theorycrafting into, say, the marginal direct damage reduction of toughness, in and of itself accounts for all of the variables that could already affect the damage dealt to players, the damage players absorb, and so forth. Heavy armor is always going to reduce direct damage by ~14% relative to light armor; whether or not you evade 99% of the attacks that deal that damage does not affect that percentage.

Yet, that argument is the only way that you can even attempt to justify ANet’s statement about “limited resources”. Their resources are not limited, they’re just looking at the wrong ones. As a matter of fact, I get the feeling that if I and one or two other members of this community worked on balance, we’d have twice the “resources” that the ANet balance team has right now within a week of being on the job. The simple fact, Arena Net, is that you choose to ignore the resources that you invented for your own game; you say that using them is “dangerous”, that predictions that are made without direct experience can’t truly understand the value of various changes. Theorycrafting is meaningless without some degree of anecdotal evidence, but anecdotal evidence and balance mean nothing without a large degree of theorycrafting, which seems to be something that ANet has completely ignored, and thus we have the current state of the game.

Thief|Mesmer|
Theorycrafter

GW2 on ps3 or ps4

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Posted by: Arganthium.5638

Arganthium.5638

Follow these steps and you wont be needing a keyboard anymore!

Get a Warrior. Get a longbow and a hammer.

Follow this video’s instructions for an easy match up:

It’s funny that you posted this, because I was literally scraping my face against my keyboard during some sPvP matches today on my warr to see what the effect would be. That, and basically mashing my hand down on every single button that exists on my keyboard.

The result? Multiple kills, minimal damage to myself, and a hell lot of random screenshots.

Thief|Mesmer|
Theorycrafter

GW2 on ps3 or ps4

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Posted by: Arganthium.5638

Arganthium.5638

Here’s a better idea, why don’t they officially stop calling Mac players “beta players” and just make us regular players.

Thief|Mesmer|
Theorycrafter

Balancing GW2

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Posted by: Arganthium.5638

Arganthium.5638

Not gonna lie, the thief changes are absolutely garbage. Better kick thieves further down the hierarchy of classes.

Thief|Mesmer|
Theorycrafter

The Bear Document

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Posted by: Arganthium.5638

Arganthium.5638

you can’t brush off casual’s opinions

That’s just it. Something in need of balance is not based on an opinion. I started out saying that if you wanted the equations, algorithms, math, or rationale, to let me know. You do NOT balance based around “feelings.”

your proposal to healing signet will make warriors paper dolls again just like during launch. how is that balance?

It will not make warriors “paper dolls” as you so claim. It will force warriors to look at other Heal Skill options (there are other 3, you know?) for builds without high Healing Power. And it would probably also require you to bind your Heal Skill, which might be more buttons than you’re currently comfortable pressing, but I think you’ll be ok.

Also, warriors were never paper dolls. They were very tanky, what brought them down really quickly were conditions and they lacked proper tools to deal with conditions. Once they got Cleansing Ire and the new Berserker Stance they were fine. But ANet accidentally buffed Healing Signet too, and then they buffed Berserker Stance again. oops.

If you have to take a different healing skill depending on what role you want to play, I consider that balanced.

If you have to take the same healing skill on all specs because it’s too kittening good, that’s not balanced.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shelter
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Healing_Turret
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Healing_Spring
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Withdraw
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ether_Feast
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Consume_Conditions

I’m sorry? Do you like linking skills that people currently have bound to their keyboard?

It’s not his first time.

Yes, no other class has damage that high but every other class has skills that do comparable damage and are easier to hit with.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Jump_Shot
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Fire_Grab
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Backstab
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mind_Wrack
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Phantasmal_Swordsman
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Maul_%28ranger_greatsword_skill%29
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Whirling_Wrath
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Whirling_Axe_%28stolen_skill%29
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Pry_Bar
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Smite
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Zealot%27s_Defense
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Well_of_Suffering
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Deathly_Claws
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Lava_Font
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Meteor_Shower
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Churning_Earth

Wanna know what they all have in common? Mobility, range, AoE, area denial and of course non obvious animations. If a Warrior uses axe all you have to do is stay 301 range away from him and he will never hit you. The only ways he can possibly get close is by using his other weapon set as sword or greatsword. If he uses those he has no cc besides possibly using Bull’s Charge or Tremor mace off hand which both have obvious animations. So all you have to do is be ready to dodge when he switches to axe since sword and greatsword don’t do very good damage besides one or two skills. Sword doesn’t do much besides Final Thrust which has a 3/4 second cast time and he will only use it when you are at 50% hp or less. Greatsword does 0 damage unless you stand in Hundred Blades or the stars align and Rush hits a target.

LMAO WTF

Churnning Earth and meteor shower are so hidden i also get hit by them

Well, y’know how it is- those two spells with their insta-casts, incredibly quiet animation noises, extremely unpredictable AoE’s, and lack of cast-time vulnerability to the caster. Just too difficult.

Thief|Mesmer|
Theorycrafter

Healing Signet complainers read this

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Posted by: Arganthium.5638

Arganthium.5638

Here’s the build: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fIAQJARUjkOxwpQuQMxBAMjvqy84HgKSfAPA-ToAg0CtIQShkDJDSSksINKYZB

Like I said, I just BS’d it on the spot.

And I think you misunderstand; I beat a necro at <1k health while he had ~5x as much health as I did, minimum (probably more). You can’t do that with other classes, but when you’re gaining anywhere from 400 to 500 HPS with AH and HS, then things change drastically.

aye thanks for sharing the build!
eh sorry but what do you mean by “BS’d it on the spot” ??? O_O

I mean that it was largely made from a severe lack of knowledge about specific warrior builds in their purest nature. That, or it’s a lot easier to make warrior builds than I already thought, which is really saying something…

Thief|Mesmer|
Theorycrafter

The Bear Document

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Posted by: Arganthium.5638

Arganthium.5638

you can’t brush off casual’s opinions

That’s just it. Something in need of balance is not based on an opinion. I started out saying that if you wanted the equations, algorithms, math, or rationale, to let me know. You do NOT balance based around “feelings.”

your proposal to healing signet will make warriors paper dolls again just like during launch. how is that balance?

It will not make warriors “paper dolls” as you so claim. It will force warriors to look at other Heal Skill options (there are other 3, you know?) for builds without high Healing Power. And it would probably also require you to bind your Heal Skill, which might be more buttons than you’re currently comfortable pressing, but I think you’ll be ok.

Also, warriors were never paper dolls. They were very tanky, what brought them down really quickly were conditions and they lacked proper tools to deal with conditions. Once they got Cleansing Ire and the new Berserker Stance they were fine. But ANet accidentally buffed Healing Signet too, and then they buffed Berserker Stance again. oops.

If you have to take a different healing skill depending on what role you want to play, I consider that balanced.

If you have to take the same healing skill on all specs because it’s too kittening good, that’s not balanced.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shelter
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Healing_Turret
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Healing_Spring
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Withdraw
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ether_Feast
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Consume_Conditions

I’m sorry? Do you like linking skills that people currently have bound to their keyboard?

It’s not his first time.

Yes, no other class has damage that high but every other class has skills that do comparable damage and are easier to hit with.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Jump_Shot
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Fire_Grab
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Backstab
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mind_Wrack
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Phantasmal_Swordsman
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Maul_%28ranger_greatsword_skill%29
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Whirling_Wrath
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Whirling_Axe_%28stolen_skill%29
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Pry_Bar
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Smite
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Zealot%27s_Defense
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Well_of_Suffering
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Deathly_Claws
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Lava_Font
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Meteor_Shower
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Churning_Earth

Wanna know what they all have in common? Mobility, range, AoE, area denial and of course non obvious animations. If a Warrior uses axe all you have to do is stay 301 range away from him and he will never hit you. The only ways he can possibly get close is by using his other weapon set as sword or greatsword. If he uses those he has no cc besides possibly using Bull’s Charge or Tremor mace off hand which both have obvious animations. So all you have to do is be ready to dodge when he switches to axe since sword and greatsword don’t do very good damage besides one or two skills. Sword doesn’t do much besides Final Thrust which has a 3/4 second cast time and he will only use it when you are at 50% hp or less. Greatsword does 0 damage unless you stand in Hundred Blades or the stars align and Rush hits a target.

LMAO WTF

Thief|Mesmer|
Theorycrafter

Why is Mesmer shatter not played?

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Posted by: Arganthium.5638

Arganthium.5638

1) When clones start running at you, a burst is coming
2) If you dodge towards the clones (or pop a block/invuln/etc) it completely negates the burst

Mesmer’s my secondary class, but those should be so incredibly obvious to any half-decent player that it’s sad that it actually needs mentioning.

Thief|Mesmer|
Theorycrafter

The Bear Document

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Posted by: Arganthium.5638

Arganthium.5638

Also, one last thing to add: I don’t support immediately dropping Healing Signet to 200 HPS, or anything to that effect. I want it to be nerfed in small amounts of 20 to 50 HPS over a few nerfs that are close to one another, so that we don’t put warrior back into the Stone Age again.

Thief|Mesmer|
Theorycrafter

The Bear Document

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Posted by: Arganthium.5638

Arganthium.5638

Looking at others’ comments, I have this to say: if you’re going to argue with math or other logically/scientifically based arguments, then you’d better have more than personal feelings or personal experience to back those arguments up.

Thief|Mesmer|
Theorycrafter

Healing Signet complainers read this

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Posted by: Arganthium.5638

Arganthium.5638

still dies to high burst damage

In the video I was mentioning earlier, I found out that warrior is the only class I have ever seen that can survive a stun+100 Blades+frenzy with somewhere between 25% to 50% of its health left.

heavy condition overload

In that video, I also beat a necro who was at around 25% health with full Death Shroud activated while I had <1k health.

what build your warrior is using? please share.

surviving stun + 100 blades + frenzy with 25% – 50% health left is intended if the warrior is build defensively. warriors are not supposed to be paper dolls.

winning a 1 vs 1 with < 1k health remaining hardly justifies the warrior as over powered. in team fights the warrior will be focused and dead.

Here’s the build: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fIAQJARUjkOxwpQuQMxBAMjvqy84HgKSfAPA-ToAg0CtIQShkDJDSSksINKYZB

Like I said, I just BS’d it on the spot.

And I think you misunderstand; I beat a necro at <1k health while he had ~5x as much health as I did, minimum (probably more). You can’t do that with other classes, but when you’re gaining anywhere from 400 to 500 HPS with AH and HS, then things change drastically.

Thief|Mesmer|
Theorycrafter

Healing Signet complainers read this

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Posted by: Arganthium.5638

Arganthium.5638

still dies to high burst damage

In the video I was mentioning earlier, I found out that warrior is the only class I have ever seen that can survive a stun+100 Blades+frenzy with somewhere between 25% to 50% of its health left.

heavy condition overload

In that video, I also beat a necro who was at around 25% health with full Death Shroud activated while I had <1k health.

Thief|Mesmer|
Theorycrafter

The Bear Document

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Posted by: Arganthium.5638

Arganthium.5638

There’s a heck of a lot of stuff that I disagree with in your analysis, but since it would be too long for me to fully detail everything (I mean, I could do it, I’ve done similar things before, but… It’s a lot), I’ve decided to stick to my soulmate class, the thief.

Thief – initiative regen reduced to 0.8/second; build diversity requires a 1.1khp base increase at level 80
Skills
Cluster Bomb – damage reduced by 12.5%

Shelk Venom – recharge reduced to 40 seconds

Traits
Improvisation – changed description from bundle to possessing a stolen skill

Sleight of Hand – Internal cool down of 30 seconds

First of all- I agree about reducing the initiative recharge… But only if the nerfs to our traits that granted init were undone. If initiative is brought to .8 per second but the initiative nerfs to traits like QR, Kleptomaniac, Opportunist, and other similar traits remain the same, then your change will kill the thief. There’s absolutely no doubt about this.

I’m not sure how you got the 1.1k buff, but if you think that’s going to increase build diversity, it’s not. In fact, if anything, it could very well decrease build diversity. One of the major advantages that builds running 20-30 points in Acro (typically sword builds) has over other builds (D/D, D/P, and P/D builds) is that we get extra vitality that those other builds don’t get, and thus extra defense. The marginal benefit to those lower-vitality builds is going to be much higher than for the higher-vitality ones, if you know any economics, and the net result is going to be that dagger builds are going to dominate sword builds further and sword is going to continue on its path to oblivion.

Cluster Bomb… This skill already has an incredibly obvious animation (unless you’re standing extremely close to a thief), and moves extremely slowly, and deals fairly average damage for a non-auto attack.

Skelk Venom is a horrible healing skill and probably always will be. It’s a venom. As I like to say,

There are two types of players: people who think that the new thief heal is good, and people who have tried thief venoms before.

Improvisation is one of the thief’s worst traits (it’ll probably screw you over more than it’ll help you). Changing the text for the trait will not help it become any better.

Sleight of Hand- a 1 second daze on a 20 second CD now becomes a 1 second daze on a 30 second cool down! Yay!

EDIT: this post has inspired me to make something similar, though…

Thief|Mesmer|
Theorycrafter

Healing Signet complainers read this

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Posted by: Arganthium.5638

Arganthium.5638

they are ok with backstab doing 11k dmg wich is only 1 hit 1 button but they can’t deal with 400 hp heal when even auto attacks deal more dmg than that

I bolded everything in your statement that was either false, highly improbable, or left out some major factors in considering the argument (for example, even if auto attacks deal more than 400 DPS- which isn’t necessarily the case- that doesn’t mean that HS isn’t OP. Consider the fact that auto would then deal as much DPS to classes that have a heal that is 100 HPS less than HS).

Thief|Mesmer|
Theorycrafter

Healing Signet complainers read this

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Posted by: Arganthium.5638

Arganthium.5638

Believe it or not, we know what Adrenal Health is, and we’re not so stupid that AH is the reason why we oppose HS.

That being said, HS still heals for more per second than any other heal in the game by itself, and with AH adding anywhere between 41.67 to 120 more HPS to that heal, combined with warr’s already extremely high vitality and heavy armor, it makes warriors exceedingly difficult to kill.

I made a video with a warrior build that I pretty much just BS’d on the spot, I’ll make sure to post it as soon as I can download it to my flash drive.

Thief|Mesmer|
Theorycrafter

2013: The Year in PvP

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Posted by: Arganthium.5638

Arganthium.5638

most dominant team during a big part of 2013 wasn’t included in ‘2013 The Year in PvP’, lol.

It’s okay Oblivion, we still love Team Paradigm! Even if the controversy surrounding PAX blew TP into… Oblivion. o.O

Gotta agree though, most of your matches completely routed your opponents lol.

Thief|Mesmer|
Theorycrafter

Guardian Shield Idea

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Posted by: Arganthium.5638

Arganthium.5638

SoJ still does more damage than Mace/Scepter/Sword auto, and the protection is not to be underestimated, especially since it grants protection to your allies as well in a wide area. With Altruistic Healing, it becomes even better.

That being said, reducing the CD to 25 seconds would certainly be a good buff IMO.

Thief|Mesmer|
Theorycrafter

Thief desperately needs build diversity.

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Posted by: Arganthium.5638

Arganthium.5638

Also, Venom Share is still going to be kinda sucky overall, IMO. And I have to agree that P/D is a very gimmicky weapon set, but then, all stealth weapon sets are (at least to some extent).

Thief|Mesmer|
Theorycrafter

Thief desperately needs build diversity.

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Posted by: Arganthium.5638

Arganthium.5638

Here’s my take on different weapon sets atm:

P/P: never was viable, probably never going to be viable.

P/D: this is an okay option for WvW and PvE, but it lacks mobility which, IMO, is one of the primary reasons to play thief. Furthermore, the damage is kinda meh. This is only very rarely used in sPvP, simply because, there, it’s a bad weaponset. I do know a couple of thieves (xmtrvc/Damage Dolly comes to mind) who have used it with decent results however.

D/D: only really useful in WvW with the huge amount of NPCs and players. In sPvP, the required melee range is going to be a significant hamper. Furthermore, it really only has three usable weapon skills (auto, Heartseeker, and CnD), whereas D/P has five. For that reason, I personally believe D/D to be inferior to D/P, but I know that there are a lot of people that are zealous supporters of the D/D weaponset who love D/D builds a ton, so if you’re one of those people, then, by all means, play what you enjoy.

D/P: still a good weaponset, although it suffers all of the same problems that all stealth builds have always faced. However, all 5 skills are usable, so there’s something for you to take into consideration.

S/P: this used to be my main weaponset about a year ago. This weaponset is interesting because the #4 and #5 skills tend to be much more useful than those of S/D, but the first three skills (generally, the first three skills are considered the most important) lack synergy, which I think makes this weaponset overall slightly inferior to S/D. Specifically, there’s nothing between IS and Pistol Whip that makes them go hand-in-hand with one another, which isn’t true of S/D. Pistol Whip in and of itself is a kinda bad skill that only works effectively against less experienced players. Run into a good player, however, and he/she should be able to counter you effectively. Furthermore, there’s no really good area to aim for as far as S/P goes. For example, my S/D build goes for being able to use S/D and SB as your secondary, stealing lots of boons, and having maximum mobility (there’s nothing more fun than being able to use some combination of Shadowstep, IS, Infi Signet, Steal, and/or Infi Arrow to help a teammate who’s 3000 range away almost instantly), whereas builds like Jumper’s are going to focus on evading a ton while remaining in a close range. However, S/P doesn’t really seem to have much of a goal outside of just bursting your opponent and/or laying down a constant stream of damage, and it’s up to you and your opponent how that’s going to happen. It’s your choice though; I’ll just say that I dislike the lack of a strong overarching strategy or plan behind S/P, though that might just be an incorrect perception of the weaponset.

S/D- the specialty weaponset of players like Jumper, Lady Nag Nag, and me. As mentioned before, the 4 and 5 skills aren’t going to be quite as useful as they are for S/P (though 4 is good for catching fleeing opponents when you’re out of mobility tactics for yourself and 5 is good for stomping). However, there’s a lot of synergy between Infiltrator’s Strike/Return and Flanking Strike: they’re both skills that allow you to move quickly and fluidly. Furthermore, FS/LS also comes with a boonsteal, which is another nice tactic for you to have up your sleeve. With the recent nerfs to Infi Strike/Return, this weaponset has become less viable but is nonetheless still usable. This is definitely a weaponset where you’re going to want to have a very well-designed and well-tested build, however.

SB- not really so much a weaponset of its own as it is a utility weapon. Infi Arrow and Choking Gas are extremely useful, and the overall AoE and ranged abilities that you get from SB is hard to pass up.

So as far as individual weaponsets go, I’d rate their viability as following (not including SB):

1. D/P
2. S/D
3. S/P
4. D/D
5. P/D
6. P/P

Thief|Mesmer|
Theorycrafter

Check my math: Signet of Malice vs. Withdraw

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Posted by: Arganthium.5638

Arganthium.5638

What I’m really trying to say here, is that the OP assumes that a lot of variables are constant or are constant enough for his/her purposes that he/she can make various assumptions that, realistically, can’t be made. If you do make those assumptions, then you’re either basing your ideas off of an unsupported personal bias, an extremely skewed statistical distribution, or off of variables that are overall fairly impertinent to the matter at hand when taken in the context of all of the other variables. That’s the real flaw in the OP, and that’s why his/her results are, for all practical purposes, completely meaningless.

Then help me out here. What can I do to make it a better test? What should be cut?

I’m not saying either heal is better than the other. I want to know which is better. I do admit I shouldn’t have added the Cleric’s set in retrospect; It’d only be important for Unload. I also don’t have enough numbers on Thief animations and while I could time it myself I wouldn’t have the precision desired.

I also made sure I put in the last section about raw number of hits needed to outheal Withdraw. That alone doesn’t take into assumption any other variables; just the number attacks needed with the healing power gained from the two main healing power amulets and respective jewels slotted in. How to get to those thresholds, and whether or not they can be sustained, is another question I was hoping to move towards while using the fewest extra skills, like Caltrops.

Well, for starters, measure healing in HPS (healing per second). To do that with SoMalice, just multiply the amount of initiative you get per second on average by 3 (number of LDB hits), divide by four (initiative cost for LDB), and then divide by the cast time for LDB. Finally, multiply by 100 (health gained per hit from SoM). That should get you the HPS for SoMalice, unless there’s something that I’ve completely forgotten.

However, that’s not really all too accurate. See, in doing all of this, we’ve left out the number of hits that you’ll get on average with LDB anyways. Assuming that the previous number created gives you a number higher than that for Withdraw’s HPS (w/ casting time), then divide the HPS for Withdraw by the HPS for your previous SoMalice calculation. That’ll give you a good idea of the percentage of hits that you need to achieve the same healing per second of Withdraw, which is really the only variable you should care about in this entire calculation. If your number is, say, 90%, then you’re probably unlikely to get more HPS with SoMalice than you are with Withdraw. On the other hand, however, a value of 10% should be fairly easy to achieve, and so you should run SoMalice in that case.

As for slope with healing power, you can also measure that in HPS. Just multiply the healing coefficient for SoMalice by the average number of hits per second that you get with LDB and SoMalice, and that’ll give you your answer (I think). On the other hand, just divide Withdraw’s coefficient by 15 plus the cast time.

Thief|Mesmer|
Theorycrafter

You're done Obal

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Posted by: Arganthium.5638

Arganthium.5638

I couldn’t watch the whole thing, it hurt my head. I had to stop at 1:17.

I’m sure this is an attempt at satire but the narrator’s voice was too grating, because they tried too hard.

You made it farther than me…

I have very little patience for hyperactive kids on YouTube.

I pretty much had to turn off the sound after about a minute myself. Guess that’s how I managed to survive as long as I did.

Thief|Mesmer|
Theorycrafter

Will Last Refuge ever be removed?

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Posted by: Arganthium.5638

Arganthium.5638

Last Refuge has been mentioned here one too many times already. The devs seem to be very afraid of making changes to buffing the thief profession.

Thief|Mesmer|
Theorycrafter

Ranger stunned-feared me to death

in PvP

Posted by: Arganthium.5638

Arganthium.5638

Thief relies on evades and position displacements as a way to avoid damage and being caught with CC. Stability is something designed that requires the player to get hit by said abilities to be effective. Thats why it doesnt fit the thief class idea.

What we could argue is having a grandmaster at trickery that grants 1 second stability on steal, now that could be interesting, but never, ever access to stability the same as a warrior or a guardian.

My point was directed specifically towards stability, not towards stuns in general. That being said, while we can evade/blind CC’s, when we get caught by one and are unable to counter it, the effects tend to be devastating. Since there are so many CC skills in this current meta (at least, as far as warriors go), thieves have been put to something of a disadvantage just so that they don’t get murdered by stuns in general. Furthermore, if we are expected to evade all of the CC skills, then, on top of that, we have to avoid all high-damage skills as well. Having to do both of those things at the same time tends to be extremely difficult, and even if it is doable, the disadvantage derived from having to focus so much on evading so many skills only to have about even chances with a warrior is seriously crippling for thieves. I’m not going to say that I have a lot of trouble evading stuns and the like, but with the amount of CC that does exist in this meta, it’s very easy to still get caught by a couple of skills and have your damage significantly dampened while your opponent’s damage is amped up greatly. Not to mention that once you’ve been stunned in place, you often end up being stunned/CC’d/immobilized/crippled/chilled until you’re in downed state unless you haven’t burnt one of your stunbreaks yet.

I don’t believe in giving thieves stability, but Zodian’s original point- that CC can be solved easily with stability- does not apply to everyone, and thus my intended point stands: while thieves can counter CC, the large volume of CC in the current meta that has been given to certain classes pushes thieves (who don’t have any stability whatsoever) towards certain extremes that are unhealthy both for the class and for the game.

Thief|Mesmer|
Theorycrafter

Ranger stunned-feared me to death

in PvP

Posted by: Arganthium.5638

Arganthium.5638

You’re not getting any approval from anyone with that attitude. Just because your thief build cant deal with it doesnt mean others cant face the same problems more effectively.

I think you’re failing to see my point here. My build can deal with stuns very efficiently (I don’t say that to brag, I say it because each of my utilities is a stun breaker…), but either way my point was that thieves have only one skill that grants stability- Dagger Storm- and obviously that’s one of the least efficient ways to get stability in the game. This isn’t a build-specific problem, it’s a class-wide problem.

And hey, I figured that I’m allowed to be sarcastic sometimes…

Thief|Mesmer|
Theorycrafter

Ranger stunned-feared me to death

in PvP

Posted by: Arganthium.5638

Arganthium.5638

Stability op bro

Omg that’s it! I just need to have constant uptime of stability on my thief!

You, from all thieves, said this? You just dropped big time in my consideration Arganthium.

/shrugs

I wasn’t looking for your approval anyways. Say what you like, but that doesn’t change the point behind my statement.

Thief|Mesmer|
Theorycrafter

Silven's PvP Guardian Build Guide

in Guardian

Posted by: Arganthium.5638

Arganthium.5638

Did you factor in Vigor?

Mmm.

Those aforementioned stats are true whether or not vigor is accounted for. Again, though, another problem with comparing between offensive and defensive stats: even if you do have a lot of vigor, that doesn’t necessarily mean that you’ll be better off doing more damage. For example, if this was a condi build (implying- hopefully- that the weapon coefficients were very low to make up for the condi damage, which is true of… Most condition weapons), then, assuming you don’t have some trait like Dhuumfire, I would say (and I’m sure that you would agree) that the additional toughness is worth more than the precision. On the other hand, however, if this was a thief S/D build, I might first consider how much damage I’m soaking up relative to base just from dodging before I considered taking the 150 toughness over the additional precision.

Point is, whether or not vigor is taken into account doesn’t affect the damage reduction. However, if you think that the damage reduction is already extremely good when you factor in vigor, then by all means, go ahead and take the precision. It’s really a matter of opinion here, which tends to be the case fairly often when comparing offensive and defensive stats.

Thief|Mesmer|
Theorycrafter

You're done Obal

in Guardian

Posted by: Arganthium.5638

Arganthium.5638

In the 5 minutes of this video that I watched, I cringed only 362 times, which I think must be a record or something.

Thief|Mesmer|
Theorycrafter

(edited by Arganthium.5638)

Earth Magic XI is too strong.

in PvP

Posted by: Arganthium.5638

Arganthium.5638

I haven’t seen a single ele use it. Either way, these kinds of flip-the-table traits go against everything I stand for and many of the principles of the rest of the sPvP community.

Thief|Mesmer|
Theorycrafter

signet passive not working

in PvP

Posted by: Arganthium.5638

Arganthium.5638

You can reset the signets just by activating them. Not sure what the bug is though. I don’t think it applies to all signets.

Thief|Mesmer|
Theorycrafter

Let's talk about Warriors

in PvP

Posted by: Arganthium.5638

Arganthium.5638

Believe it or not some people in the world can read faster than others!

That’s awfully fast for somebody to read over 5000 characters in about a minute and then spend the time analyzing it before completely disregarding it as a “wall of text”.

It is called speed reading. Look it up, it is quite useful. Plenty of people can do it. There are some people that can even read full blow novels in less than a hour and still comprehend the entire work. 5000 words is quite tiny in comparison more so over when they basically echo the same opinion all the way through.

So how about, then, instead of disregarding my post for its being a “wall of text”, you tell me how it was irrelevant?

Thief|Mesmer|
Theorycrafter

Let's talk about Warriors

in PvP

Posted by: Arganthium.5638

Arganthium.5638

Believe it or not some people in the world can read faster than others!

That’s awfully fast for somebody to read over 5000 characters in about a minute and then spend the time analyzing it before completely disregarding it as a “wall of text”.

Thief|Mesmer|
Theorycrafter

Complaint Box

in Warrior

Posted by: Arganthium.5638

Arganthium.5638

I’m tired of people coming to the warrior section and complain about us being OP in whatever. It’s annoying to find all these posts scattered throughout the warrior section.

So if you have a complain, please fill them in here, in the complaint box.

Because if we gather all the complains into one place… Us warriors can have a good laugh together in this huge topic about your misfortunes.

Regards,

-Typical Warrior

This is the funniest part of this entire thread.

Thief|Mesmer|
Theorycrafter

Let's talk about Warriors

in PvP

Posted by: Arganthium.5638

Arganthium.5638

Yet again a wall of text that does nothing but prove you don’t know what you are talking about. I almost feel bad for you.

Is this going to be the entirety of your counterargument? You clearly didn’t even read it lol. At least have the grace to read what I say before saying

nothing but prove you don’t know what you are talking about.

When you haven’t even read it (I posted that “wall of text” literally a minute ago).

Thief|Mesmer|
Theorycrafter

Let's talk about Warriors

in PvP

Posted by: Arganthium.5638

Arganthium.5638

I can only assume because you hate Warriors

Half a year ago, I was calling for them to be buffed. Also, not sure why I should hate the simplest class in the game but love all of the others…

can’t stand being proven wrong

You have yet to provide me with evidence that shows that I’m wrong, outside of quoting a couple of outliers that are supposed to represent the entire population of people who complain about warriors and using the same self-confirming circular logic which has to be based off of either the premise that the warrior is not OP, or that the players that complain about the warrior is bad.

but rest in knowing that Anet does listen to the loudest and most voiced opinion instead of the most reasoned and well thought out.

I can provide you the evidence you want for any claim that I’ve made, you haven’t provided me with anything to support your reasoning. The fact that the December 10th patch didn’t nerf the one thing that really needed nerfing, Healing Signet, goes to show that your statement about the “loudest and most voiced out opinion” is in the wrong.

Thief|Mesmer|
Theorycrafter

Let's talk about Warriors

in PvP

Posted by: Arganthium.5638

Arganthium.5638

You my friend have a serious problem. I did in fact address the situation you asked for only not directly but apparently that went straight over your head.

You choose to see the classes how you want to view them instead of how they enact with the game as a whole. Fact is, there are other classes that can well out perform the Warrior in many different areas.

Most of these people complaining are bad. You can tell how good someone is by what they complain about and how they present it. The fact that the Mesmer was complaining about a Glass Cannon Axe Warrior shows…. he is not that good. That should be a cake walk kill for any mildly decent player of any other class.

Your wall of text is nothing but gibberish that servers no purpose or proves no point.. I honestly can’t quote any of it because none of it is remotely relevantly. You are angry for some reason, I can only assume because you hate Warriors and can’t stand being proven wrong, but rest in knowing that Anet does listen to the loudest and most voiced opinion instead of the most reasoned and well thought out.

Mmm. Let’s break this down.

I did in fact address the situation you asked for only not directly but apparently that went straight over your head.

I addressed it in its entirety, not sure what point you’re trying to make here when the evidence is in the post right before yours.

You choose to see the classes how you want to view them instead of how they enact with the game as a whole. Fact is, there are other classes that can well out perform the Warrior in many different areas.

There’s nothing to support that my beliefs about the classes are based on “how I want to view them”. While I have no doubt that there are many very, very specific areas in which the Warr can be outperformed, in the vast majority of situations Warrior is able to do just as much if not more than other specialized classes, especially if built to do so. The argument, however, is not if warrs can be beat in certain areas; that has been decided already. Rather, the argument is whether or not warrs can be beat in the context of all of their roles in their entirety, and while they can, the tables are significantly in favor of the warriors.

Most of these people complaining are bad. You can tell how good someone is by what they complain about and how they present it. The fact that the Mesmer was complaining about a Glass Cannon Axe Warrior shows…. he is not that good. That should be a cake walk kill for any mildly decent player of any other class.

Whether or not that makes him a bad player does not make everybody else a bad player as well- he is only one out of a very large population that believes the same thing that I do, and to use his statement as supposed “evidence” that we are all bad is erroneous and dishonest usage of others’ statements.

Your wall of text is nothing but gibberish that servers no purpose or proves no point..

I even added a TL;DR because I knew you weren’t going to read it, and bolded the important sections. As for its point, I think that I made it fairly clear: you cannot seem to establish that all or the vast majority of players complaining about warriors are bad players without assuming first that the warrior is not OP, and vice-versa. Either way, you have to make some sort of assumption, but in your mind, because each of those ideas supports the other once one has been assumed, both of those must be sound because you fail to recognize that you have made an initial assumption anyways.

I honestly can’t quote any of it because none of it is remotely relevantly.

It’s a counterargument against your argument, which was either that 1. Players that complain about warr are bad, therefore good players think that warr is balanced and thus warr is not OP, or 2. Warr is not OP, therefore all players that think Warr is OP are bad. You’ve swapped between these two arguments fairly consistently- you first said that the complaint threads for Warrior exist only because the players that made them are bad (i.e., they don’t exist because the warrior is OP), and in my last response to you, you had argued that those players are only bad because the warrior is not OP. Make a choice: either since those players are bad and since “good” players don’t think that Warrior is OP, then warrior must not be OP, or since Warr is not OP, then the players that think they are must be bad and the players that think they aren’t are good players. In either case, the logical structure is

1. Premise (since X is Y…)

2. Argument (… Z must be true.)

You are angry for some reason

Stop trying to sugar coat kitten and maybe you won’t end up with diabetes.

Um… Right.

Thief|Mesmer|
Theorycrafter

13k Eviscerate

in PvP

Posted by: Arganthium.5638

Arganthium.5638

thread

quoted from Aidan Taylor[European Community Manager] in the official december 10th balance release patch :

“We don’t mind warriors doing massive damage……”
source : https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/info/updates/Game-Update-Notes-December-10-2013/first#post3370214

I believe this means /thread.Have some very nice Holidays everyone!

Or that ANet is, quite simply, wrong. It wouldn’t be the first time for them, given what used to be the incredibly weak state of the warrior half a year ago as compared to where they are now.

Thief|Mesmer|
Theorycrafter

Let's talk about Warriors

in PvP

Posted by: Arganthium.5638

Arganthium.5638

That’s not evidence that those players are bad. That’s evidence that they were complaining about a class that they think is OP.

There’s no logical connection between those thoughts and those players’ being bad.

You are the type of person that would say…

“Well they are not bad at math, they just have trouble adding fractions.” Yeah…

There is a connection between complaining about something that is in no way remotely over powered or even good and how bad the player is at the game. Stop trying to sugar coat kitten and maybe you won’t end up with diabetes.

That’s funny, because I honestly have no idea what you’re talking about. Furthermore, I don’t think you know even remotely enough about me to make that judgement.

You still have not established a connection between “complaining about something… and how bad the player is at the game.” I had to edit your original statement because it is a leading one in that it automatically assumes that the profession/build is not OP, which is a logical fallacy (circular logic). Essentially, this is the warrior community’s logic:

1. Given: Warrior is not OP

2. Because warrior is not OP, any people complaining about warrior are bad

3. Because only bad players think that warriors are OP, good players must think that warriors are balanced.

4. If good players think that warriors are balanced, then warrior must not be OP, which proves that the initial premise must be true.

… Except that that entire argument was based off of the idea that Warr was not OP in the first place, creating a self-perpetuating belief that is based off of an initial assumption that, if true, supports its own existence, but, if false, then may very well not have any applicability. If we did not assume that warrior wasn’t OP initially, then the argument would have to look as following:

1. Given: Warriors may or may not be OP

2. Many players are complaining that the warrior is OP.

3. ???

4. Warriors must not be OP.

… The third step is missing. Presumably, for you and your pals, that logical step would be that “well, only bad players think that warrior is bad because the warrior is not OP”, but then that automatically assumes that Warr is not OP which brings us back to that initial self-perpetuating assumption anyways.

Can’t you see? There is no logical connection between the complaining players being bad and warrior not being OP that doesn’t assume one of those two premises in the first place. However, let’s look at what you said again:

There is a connection between complaining about something that is in no way remotely over powered or even good and how bad the player is at the game. Stop trying to sugar coat kitten and maybe you won’t end up with diabetes.

It’s completely clear. You had to assume that warriors were not OP, so that your earlier argument that

ITT: bad players defend easy mode specs while calling other classes they don’t play OP.

Hence the Warrior complaint threads.

… So that you could support both the idea that the complaining players are bad and the idea that Warrs aren’t OP at the same time.

TL;DR: your logic is circular in nature as it assumes that one thing must be true in order for the other pillar of your argument to be true as well. As a result: the absolute ignorance that warriors seem to have to the incredible strength of their own class.

Thief|Mesmer|
Theorycrafter

13k Eviscerate

in PvP

Posted by: Arganthium.5638

Arganthium.5638

Have you ever used mantras? My Mesmer always takes at least one mantra and you aren’t that vulnerable casting it outside of stealth either. Name one other ability besides Shadow Step that provides 2 stun breaks in one utility slot. You can even ignore the casting it in combat if you want since it can still be pre cast to be better than most skills of the type. Either way its your only stability skill and classes like Thief and Necromancer only have them on an elite or 30 point grandmaster and they don’t even break stun.

Well excuse me, Mr. Hotjoin Hero.

Thief|Mesmer|
Theorycrafter

Does matchmaking take into account 3v5?

in PvP

Posted by: Arganthium.5638

Arganthium.5638

Caed can be an kitten BUT……. the end.

Xii Xi.

Uh… What?

Thief|Mesmer|
Theorycrafter

13k Eviscerate

in PvP

Posted by: Arganthium.5638

Arganthium.5638

Warrior does not have even half the defenses of a Mesmer and with all those defenses if you couldn’t dodge the obvious Eviscerate animation its a learn to play issue.

lol. ok in a 1v1 mes is doing alright if with the right builds, but in a zerg mes melts in seconds. perma immobilize, perma stun, knock downs knock backs and that with like half the toughness and health of a warrior. we gott no stability our passive healing signet is pretty usless in a zerg and we got the worst condi cleanse in game….your comment that a mes has more defenses than a warrior is a complete joke or u must be trolling.

This is the Spvp forum go to the WvW forum if you want to complain about zergs.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mantra_of_Concentration
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mantra_of_Resolve
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Null_Field
How exactly are you lacking stability or condition cleansing besides choosing not to take these? You don’t need to have a mantra build to take a mantra or two and they aren’t hard to cast in combat if you take a stealth utility.

Because two of those abilities are only really good in mantra builds (and of those two, one of them is pretty much never used in mantra builds, as far as I’ve seen, anyways). Null Field is a great condi cleanser, it’s just that it tends to be the only condi cleanser for the vast majority of builds.

Like I said they are good even without a mantra build or are you suggesting a skill that gives on demand 2 second stability in an AoE and a stun break x2 isn’t good? Condition cleanse one is obviously worse than Null Field but its always an option and way better than http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/%22Shake_It_Off!%22
Same cooldown but that can cure 1 in an AoE while the mantra clears 2×2 in an AoE. Casting mantras isn’t hard if you run with 1 or 2 stealth abilities.

Do you read what you write before you post it? That implies either using up three utilities just so that you can get AoE stability for 4 seconds total every ~32 seconds (at best), or using up two utilities and an OH weapon slot so that you can charge your mantra. I’m assuming you’ve never used mantras before, which goes to show how inexperienced you are with what you’re talking about because mantras are almost never good, unless you’re running a mantra-dedicated build. As for Mantra of Resolve, it has an extremely small radius (less than half that of “Shake it Off!”) and doesn’t stunbreak, and the long cast time makes you incredibly vulnerable. This is true of all mantras, in fact: the vulnerability from the 3 seconds of casting time tends to heavily outweigh the benefits of using the mantras.

Thief|Mesmer|
Theorycrafter

Does matchmaking take into account 3v5?

in PvP

Posted by: Arganthium.5638

Arganthium.5638

IMO there needs to be an option for players to join Solo Queue games that are Xv5. The tradeoff would be that players who join could still get glory and the reward for winning the match, but their MMR wouldn’t move. That way we could give people an incentive to at least contribute something to a Solo Queue match that’s probably going to be screwed over anyways.

Thief|Mesmer|
Theorycrafter

Let's talk about Warriors

in PvP

Posted by: Arganthium.5638

Arganthium.5638

ITT: bad players defend easy mode specs while calling other classes they don’t play OP.

Hence the Warrior complaint threads.

Or, perhaps, that is the cause of a self-perpetuating belief among the members of the warrior community which would state that the class does not need nerfs because all of the people who complain about the class are bad players, while all the players that support the class are the good players. If this was in fact the case, then the same argument could be made about all classes, and as a result the gMe would never be balanced, simply because the “bad” players are ignored whereas the “good” players are always being paid attention to.

The real problem, however, is being able to prove that all of the players that are complaining are “bad”. Furthermore, that breeds other problems: how do you define “bad”? Why should “bad” players be disregarded? Why should players that are happy with their respective classes be considered “good”?

This is the general state of the spvp community in guild wars 2 at the moment.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/13k-Eviscerate/first

Most of you are horribly bad.

If you want to say that the vast majority of us are horribly bad, why don’t you prove it, then?

Was proved in that post and many videos / complaints

That’s not evidence that those players are bad. That’s evidence that they were complaining about a class that they think is OP.

There’s no logical connection between those thoughts and those players’ being bad.

Thief|Mesmer|
Theorycrafter

Let's talk about Warriors

in PvP

Posted by: Arganthium.5638

Arganthium.5638

ITT: bad players defend easy mode specs while calling other classes they don’t play OP.

Hence the Warrior complaint threads.

Or, perhaps, that is the cause of a self-perpetuating belief among the members of the warrior community which would state that the class does not need nerfs because all of the people who complain about the class are bad players, while all the players that support the class are the good players. If this was in fact the case, then the same argument could be made about all classes, and as a result the gMe would never be balanced, simply because the “bad” players are ignored whereas the “good” players are always being paid attention to.

The real problem, however, is being able to prove that all of the players that are complaining are “bad”. Furthermore, that breeds other problems: how do you define “bad”? Why should “bad” players be disregarded? Why should players that are happy with their respective classes be considered “good”?

This is the general state of the spvp community in guild wars 2 at the moment.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/13k-Eviscerate/first

Most of you are horribly bad.

If you want to say that the vast majority of us are horribly bad, why don’t you prove it, then?

Thief|Mesmer|
Theorycrafter

Reporting Far Point Assaulters

in PvP

Posted by: Arganthium.5638

Arganthium.5638

And thus it was that jimmyimo was left behind in the dust, unaware of what he had done to wrong the sPvP community, only knowing that his godly strategic and tactical abilities must have been to overwhelming for them to truly appreciate. Then he went back to mid to 1v4 with his warrior and died instantly, blaming his death on his teammates.

Thief|Mesmer|
Theorycrafter

gf left me coz of ladderboard

in PvP

Posted by: Arganthium.5638

Arganthium.5638

This should not be on the second page. This. Thread. Will. Survive.

Thief|Mesmer|
Theorycrafter

Let's talk about Warriors

in PvP

Posted by: Arganthium.5638

Arganthium.5638

ITT: bad players defend easy mode specs while calling other classes they don’t play OP.

Hence the Warrior complaint threads.

Or, perhaps, that is the cause of a self-perpetuating belief among the members of the warrior community which would state that the class does not need nerfs because all of the people who complain about the class are bad players, while all the players that support the class are the good players. If this was in fact the case, then the same argument could be made about all classes, and as a result the gMe would never be balanced, simply because the “bad” players are ignored whereas the “good” players are always being paid attention to.

The real problem, however, is being able to prove that all of the players that are complaining are “bad”. Furthermore, that breeds other problems: how do you define “bad”? Why should “bad” players be disregarded? Why should players that are happy with their respective classes be considered “good”?

Thief|Mesmer|
Theorycrafter

Funniest things you heard in PvP

in PvP

Posted by: Arganthium.5638

Arganthium.5638

“warriors are balanced”

That’s what we have Balanced Stance for.

Ba dum psssssschhhhhhhhhhh

Thief|Mesmer|
Theorycrafter

Funniest things you heard in PvP

in PvP

Posted by: Arganthium.5638

Arganthium.5638

There was a thread a few months ago like this one, it was called “Famous Last Words” or something. Anyways, my quote for this thread is still the same one as the one that I used for that thread:

While I was stealth stomping a player once…
“The coward is strong in you”

Lolllll…

Thief|Mesmer|
Theorycrafter

13k Eviscerate

in PvP

Posted by: Arganthium.5638

Arganthium.5638

Warrior does not have even half the defenses of a Mesmer and with all those defenses if you couldn’t dodge the obvious Eviscerate animation its a learn to play issue.

lol. ok in a 1v1 mes is doing alright if with the right builds, but in a zerg mes melts in seconds. perma immobilize, perma stun, knock downs knock backs and that with like half the toughness and health of a warrior. we gott no stability our passive healing signet is pretty usless in a zerg and we got the worst condi cleanse in game….your comment that a mes has more defenses than a warrior is a complete joke or u must be trolling.

This is the Spvp forum go to the WvW forum if you want to complain about zergs.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mantra_of_Concentration
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mantra_of_Resolve
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Null_Field
How exactly are you lacking stability or condition cleansing besides choosing not to take these? You don’t need to have a mantra build to take a mantra or two and they aren’t hard to cast in combat if you take a stealth utility.

Because two of those abilities are only really good in mantra builds (and of those two, one of them is pretty much never used in mantra builds, as far as I’ve seen, anyways). Null Field is a great condi cleanser, it’s just that it tends to be the only condi cleanser for the vast majority of builds.

Thief|Mesmer|
Theorycrafter

Self rez cheating

in PvP

Posted by: Arganthium.5638

Arganthium.5638

New Living Story idea: the Korean Conspiracy.

Thief|Mesmer|
Theorycrafter